MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 4everwarriors on October 18, 2009, 05:40:55 PM
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This is huge. For those who haven't seen Vander play, you're in for a treat. He's Big East ready right now. This is the recruit who will validate Buzz's tenure and surely be the stepping stone to allure future blue chip talent. Crean never was able to seal the deal like Buzz just has.
Enjoy Blue's play as a Warrior as he is likely to be an early entrant to the Association.
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Yeah, I remember when Wes committed and how big that felt. This is bigger.
My brother the UW grad is very unhappy over this. He likes Bo, but thinks they can only go so far with the talent they have.
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This really is huge for sure. And I hope it encourages others of his skill level to come aboard in the future. I hope he sticks around, but so glad we have him :)
WOW!!!! Kudos to Buzz and the staff for staying the course, and working so hard. Kudos to Blue and his family!
Welcome to MU!
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This is huge. For those who haven't seen Vander play, you're in for a treat. He's Big East ready right now. This is the recruit who will validate Buzz's tenure and surely be the stepping stone to allure future blue chip talent. Crean never was able to seal the deal like Buzz just has.
Enjoy Blue's play as a Warrior as he is likely to be an early entrant to the Association.
Hold on there brother... where are the big men? ;D Remember these famous words "Crean only gets quality guards, he can't land the big men". ;D
Seriously, it's a great get and one that I think many of us thought would happen in the last 2 months. We still have a few years to go to find out if Buzz is the real deal, however, but so far so good (that's for you Lenny). Let's also not forget that without Crean and his accomplishments (Final Four, NCAAs, players to the NBA, hiring Buzz, Buzz ain't here to even make this pitch...it's all a building block....rip on Crean all you want, but this doesn't happen without him, for some reason people keep forgetting this).
Steve Lavin, here in my hometown, keeps reverberating through my head as he landed the #1 OVERALL recruiting class 2 of 5 years (the other three classes were all top 15) and he couldn't make a go of it. I don't think Buzz is Lavin, I hope he isn't. If Buzz can learn from his mistakes (as he seems to be doing) and continue to get quality players, then we should be great. Let's all hope that's the case. So far so good, nice get by Mr. Williams....anything to make Badgerholes pissed off is a great thing.
5...4...3...2....1.....until the Mr. Hayward hate machine kicks in and will claim I'm trashing Buzz, which I most certainly am not.
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Yeah, I remember when Wes committed and how big that felt. This is bigger.
My brother the UW grad is very unhappy over this. He likes Bo, but thinks they can only go so far with the talent they have.
Bo won't get out and recruit, he leaves it all in the hands of his assistants.
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Chicos, you're not trashing Buzz, but you sure can be a downer. Worried about Buzz becoming like Lavin? C'mon.
Name the last time a Marquette coach landed top 20 (top 10?) recruiting classes back-to-back?
That's how big this is! We're in territory we haven't seen in a LONG time. Yes, Buzz still has a lot to prove, but I think he's proved his recruiting prowess, and both recruits and fans seem to like his attitude.
But go on - keep casting doubts at every chance you get...
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How about "Buzz's Defining Moment up to this moment". Blue is a great get and I have been nothing but impressed with Buzz since he arrived. We still need an athletic, impact 4-5 and he still has to coach them all without having a locker room blow up on him because everybody wants the ball. With that disclaimer out of the way.......WAHOOOOOOO!
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Chicos, you're not trashing Buzz, but you sure can be a downer. Worried about Buzz becoming like Lavin? C'mon.
Name the last time a Marquette coach landed top 20 (top 10?) recruiting classes back-to-back?
That's how big this is! We're in territory we haven't seen in a LONG time. Yes, Buzz still has a lot to prove, but I think he's proved his recruiting prowess, and both recruits and fans seem to like his attitude.
But go on - keep casting doubts at every chance you get...
I'm not worried about him becoming Lavin but simply pointing out that great recruiting classes don't always mean great success....they should, but not always...I'm saying we still have to wait a few years before anointing. I knew Blue was coming to MU a few weeks ago (about 95% sure based on what I had heard) .... it's a great get.
I just laugh at the double standards here sometimes and I'm more than willing to point them out. ;)
As for your question about top 20 recruiting classes back to back, probably not since Al McGuire I would guess.
I don't know why you're feeling down, I'm sure not. Anything that gets the Badgerholes pissed off, I'm happy as a clam. Having top talent come to MU, is always a great thing....BUT WHERE ARE THE QUALITY BIG MEN. :D
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Dom James was a HUGE get for Crean... so it isn't as though this sort of thing hasn't happened before. Not trying to be a downer because I am really excited... but as usual, we need to be realistic.
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Chicos has a point about recruiting big men and I jumped all over the departed tan one for his lack of success in that regard.
However, Crean never recruited a guard with this kind of talent coming out of high school, not even Wade. I have full confidence the 4's and 5's that the program needs will be coming as well.
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However, Crean never recruited a guard with this kind of talent coming out of high school, not even Wade.
Or someone with so much talent, to come in when there will be a bunch of talented, BE tested guards in front of him. I have no doubt they can all contribute to the team, but we're getting depth we haven't had for a long time. That's what I'm ecstatic about!
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How about "Buzz's Defining Moment up to this moment". Blue is a great get and I have been nothing but impressed with Buzz since he arrived. We still need an athletic, impact 4-5 and he still has to coach them all without having a locker room blow up on him because everybody wants the ball. With that disclaimer out of the way.......WAHOOOOOOO!
In regards to getting the ball. I don't know where Wes ended up with on MU all-time scoring leader, but DJ, Jerel, Lazar and probably Wes if he wasn't hurt his Freshman year would be in the top 10. Hence, spreading plenty of scoring around with this and future teams should not be a problem.
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This is big. As 4ever said, he's BE ready today. His performance at State last year was one of the best I've seen. He was absolutely dominant. It will be a treat with a backcourt of Blue, Buycks, Cadougan, and DJO next year. If Buzz can land Black, or a comparable PF... giddy up.
Good times on the way friends.
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The Wiki knows that Wes was # 8 overall in scoring. Lazar is currently at 27th with 1270 points thus far.
http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/all-time_leading_scorers
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The Wiki knows that Wes was # 8 overall in scoring. Lazar is currently at 27th with 1270 points thus far.
http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/all-time_leading_scorers
its conceivable hayward could end up as #2 overall if he has a productive year and stays healthy
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Chicos has a point about recruiting big men and I jumped all over the departed tan one for his lack of success in that regard.
However, Crean never recruited a guard with this kind of talent coming out of high school, not even Wade. I have full confidence the 4's and 5's that the program needs will be coming as well.
From a rating standpoint, you are correct....but let's do all of us a favor, especially Mr. Blue....he ain't no Dwyane Wade. That will be our best recruit for a LONG LONG LONG time. We need not be silly with the pressure we put on this kid. Wade is bar none the best player MU has had in decades
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From a rating standpoint, you are correct....but let's do all of us a favor, especially Mr. Blue....he ain't no Dwyane Wade. That will be our best recruit for a LONG LONG LONG time. We need not be silly with the pressure we put on this kid. Wade is bar none the best player MU has had in decades
No one is Dwyane Wade, so get that out of your head.
But if Junior, Williams and Maymon (and DJO and Buycks) are DJ, Wes and Jerel...then Blue and Jones are Lazar and Cooby. Sounds better already huh? You see sometimes it pays to follow up one good recruiting class with another. You know, like TC did in the early 2000s before his ego ran out of control and he burned every bridge not connected to Tel Iviv.
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Yeah, I remember when Wes committed and how big that felt. This is bigger.
My brother the UW grad is very unhappy over this. He likes Bo, but thinks they can only go so far with the talent they have.
actaully with the talent they have they will not be going far. decent team this year but the wheels will really begin to fall off next year.
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where are the 50 or so rants from Chicos that said it was easy to sign good recruiting classes with all kinds of Playing time to offer. Then Buzz signs Jones and Blue both top 75 recruits!! Chicos passive agression towrds anything positive in regards to Mu is sad.
i have asked it before is Chicos very short, why such a chip on his shoulder that he has some un ending desire to be a prick?
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. . . if Junior, Williams and Maymon (and DJO and Buycks) are DJ, Wes and Jerel...
Watch out . . . this sort of talk is not very popular around here. The amigos were an amazing class, and it is completely unfair to expect this year's newcomers to equal their performance (as I've been repeatedly told). ;)
That having been said, this sort of recruiting is exactly why I supported Buzz over the supposedly more experienced mid-major head coaches that others argued should have been considered. Recruiting is everything, and this commit demonstrates that assistance experience at Texas A&M and Marquette translates better to our situation HC experience at places like Wright State, VCU or Bradley.
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I think Chicos is timidly using teal because he knows (or feels) Buzz is getting close to getting a big man.
Chicos...you *know* Black's coming don't you. ;)
But we already have A big man...Mbao. :D
I hope Vander, Jamail and company make you eat your words! :)
BTW, somewhere in Wisconsin, Keaton Nankivil is wondering if he can turn back the hands of time. LOL!
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Chicos passive agression towrds anything positive in regards to Mu is sad.
Any sadder than your passive aggression toward anything positive that MU did between 1999 and 2008?
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Watch out . . . this sort of talk is not very popular around here. The amigos were an amazing class, and it is completely unfair to expect this year's newcomers to equal their performance (as I've been repeatedly told). ;)
Don't worry SJS, I don't shy away from heaping expectations. Maymon's class should deliver at least 3 NCAAs. Anything else will be a disappointment.
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Incidentally, someone asked me via email how I knew a few weeks ago. I got confirmation out here that UCLA and Zona were out, which is why I said MU or Florida. I totally agreed with 4ever that once he decommitted from UW, he wasn't going back so it had to be those two. Then in the last 10 days I was told he wants to stay home so it pretty much had to be MU at that point....that's why it became a 95% thing at that point...not for sure for sure, but about as sure as it's going to get from the folks that I spoke to.
Again, great get by Mr. Williams....and reading the Badgerholes rip him apart on the Wisconsin State Journal board, Badgermaniac, etc.....too great. Love all the slaps at this kid's educational abilities. I guess they never learn and they wonder why so many talents are leaving the area. LOL
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Watch out . . . this sort of talk is not very popular around here. The amigos were an amazing class, and it is completely unfair to expect this year's newcomers to equal their performance (as I've been repeatedly told). ;)
That having been said, this sort of recruiting is exactly why I supported Buzz over the supposedly more experienced mid-major head coaches that others argued should have been considered. Recruiting is everything, and this commit demonstrates that assistance experience at Texas A&M and Marquette translates better to our situation HC experience at places like Wright State, VCU or Bradley.
I for one fully expect this year's newcomers to exceed the amigos accomplishments. If they only win 2 NCAA tournament games in their 4 years I'll be shocked and bitterly disappointed.
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I think Chicos is timidly using teal because he knows (or feels) Buzz is getting close to getting a big man.
Chicos...you *know* Black's coming don't you. ;)
But we already have A big man...Mbao. :D
I hope Vander, Jamail and company make you eat your words! :)
BTW, somewhere in Wisconsin, Keaton Nankivil is wondering if he can turn back the hands of time. LOL!
LOL Sorry, I don't consider Mbao a stud recruit. Remember, the chant was STUD BIG MEN, not just BIG MEN.
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I for one fully expect this year's newcomers to exceed the amigos accomplishments. If they only win 2 NCAA tournament games in their 4 years I'll be shocked and bitterly disappointed.
Do you really think the 3 Amigos class would only have 2 NCAA wins if two of their best players didn't miss games? Come on, sometimes you need to put a * by your comments because you don't portray them honestly or with all the facts.
Let's see what happens to this upcoming class....if they are bit by the same injury bug as MU was the last 4 years, we'll all be bitterly disappointed.
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Hold on there brother... where are the big men? ;D Remember these famous words "Crean only gets quality guards, he can't land the big men". ;D
Seriously, it's a great get and one that I think many of us thought would happen in the last 2 months. We still have a few years to go to find out if Buzz is the real deal, however, but so far so good (that's for you Lenny). Let's also not forget that without Crean and his accomplishments (Final Four, NCAAs, players to the NBA, hiring Buzz, Buzz ain't here to even make this pitch...it's all a building block....rip on Crean all you want, but this doesn't happen without him, for some reason people keep forgetting this).
Steve Lavin, here in my hometown, keeps reverberating through my head as he landed the #1 OVERALL recruiting class 2 of 5 years (the other three classes were all top 15) and he couldn't make a go of it. I don't think Buzz is Lavin, I hope he isn't. If Buzz can learn from his mistakes (as he seems to be doing) and continue to get quality players, then we should be great. Let's all hope that's the case. So far so good, nice get by Mr. Williams....anything to make Badgerholes pissed off is a great thing.
5...4...3...2....1.....until the Mr. Hayward hate machine kicks in and will claim I'm trashing Buzz, which I most certainly am not.
Marquette has just landed its highest rated recruit since Doc Rivers and you want to talk about 1.how smart and/or "inside" you are (knew this two months ago) 2. how Buzz must continue to learn from his mistakes 3.how this is all really due to Tom Crean 4. how when you look at Buzz, Steve Lavin keeps reverberating in your head and 5.how the great thing about this is it makes "Badgerholes" pissed off.
So in addition to trashing Buzz, your also patting yourself on the back, calling for the canonization of TC, and being a general poor sport/bad winner. Solid post.
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Do you really think the 3 Amigos class would only have 2 NCAA wins if two of their best players didn't miss games? Come on, sometimes you need to put a * by your comments because you don't portray them honestly or with all the facts.
Let's see what happens to this upcoming class....if they are bit by the same injury bug as MU was the last 4 years, we'll all be bitterly disappointed.
Our performance against MSU in the NCAAs was pathetic. We were totally unprepared and were never in the game. With Jerel we still lose. I agree that last year our still unproven coach would have led us to another win or two if James hadn't been hurt.
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Man these guys are gonna be fun to watch.
We may end up with Junior, Vander and Jamail as the new 3 amigos.
It'd be nice if their 4th was a big time post player.
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From a rating standpoint, you are correct....but let's do all of us a favor, especially Mr. Blue....he ain't no Dwyane Wade. That will be our best recruit for a LONG LONG LONG time. We need not be silly with the pressure we put on this kid. Wade is bar none the best player MU has had in decades
The chances are that we'll never have another D Wade. The difference here is that virtually every top program in the country would love to have Blue. Other than us, only a few mid majors would take Wade as a freshman. Big, big difference.
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I for one fully expect this year's newcomers to exceed the amigos accomplishments.
The amigos finished 4th in the BE their freshman year.
Since you fully expect this year's newcomers to "exceed the amigos accomplishments" are you expecting a first, second or third place finish this year?
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The amigos finished 4th in the BE their freshman year.
Since you fully expect this year's newcomers to "exceed the amigos accomplishments" are you expecting a first, second or third place finish this year?
Since 18 months aren't sufficient to draw any conclusions on Buzz, why would one want to compare the amigos to this year's class looking only at their freshman years? Let's compare after the incoming class graduates. If they don't win more than 2 NCAA games I'll eat your hat.
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A big man like Tarik Black would DEFINITELY round out this recruiting class.
And don't forget that we can over-sign one more player! ;)
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where are the 50 or so rants from Chicos that said it was easy to sign good recruiting classes with all kinds of Playing time to offer. Then Buzz signs Jones and Blue both top 75 recruits!! Chicos passive agression towrds anything positive in regards to Mu is sad.
i have asked it before is Chicos very short, why such a chip on his shoulder that he has some un ending desire to be a prick?
Oh those pesky facts again. You know Hayward, you can use Summer's Eve all day to your heart's content, that's your call, but I'm not going to let you lie again.
50 or so rants? None, actually. I did say that it's easier to recruit when playing time is available, that is an absolute known in the world of college athletics. I also said that Buzz may be able to do what Crean couldn't, which is land back to back classes.
Here's the proof, you know....evidence. Try it sometime Hayward, you can't believe how much it would help in your "analysis".
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15491.0 page 1 and page 2
You know, the search function can be used by you as well. Would you like a tutorial?
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Our performance against MSU in the NCAAs was pathetic. We were totally unprepared and were never in the game. With Jerel we still lose. I agree that last year our still unproven coach would have led us to another win or two if James hadn't been hurt.
With Jerel, we don't even play MSU and get a much easier game
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So in addition to trashing Buzz, your also patting yourself on the back, calling for the canonization of TC...
Yes, you'll have to show me where I trashed Buzz...thanks. Also where TC was canonized...thanks. Did TC hire Buzz and leave him a really good launching pad (Big East, great senior class, brand new building, Final Four only a few years earlier, etc)...yup, that's just reality, nothing about canonization unless reality and facts equal that.
T.H., what do you think the market will do this week?
PS Two months ago was merely a guess that many here had...4ever, etc. It wasnt' until about 2 weeks ago when things actually started to take shape and even then, that was only by a process of elimination of other schools.
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Back to Buzz's defining moment. I hope he has many, many more defining moments in the future at & for Marquette!
GO MARQUETTE!
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concerning the big man talk, we need one in this coming class. If it's a stud 4 or 5, that'd be amazing. If it's a raw guy I think that will be okay too. At Madness watching Otule, I think he will continue to grow and has improved immensely on last year already. There is no way he would have successfully executed a post move the first time he got the ball last year like he did on Friday. He may surprise some people at times and actually be serviceable this year. If he is able to continue to improve, next year I would expect something like Ous his senior year only with better hands and a little more size. That being said, a big is definitely needed this coming recruiting class, and just about every one after that, just to continue to have height on the team. This is something Buzz realizes. I'm hoping for Black as he could contribute immediately but these types of players generally need a fair amount of coaching before they are really ready to contribute.
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I'm guessing buzz would be annoyed to think that people are discussing his defining moment after only 423 days on the job.
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concerning the big man talk, we need one in this coming class. If it's a stud 4 or 5, that'd be amazing. If it's a raw guy I think that will be okay too. At Madness watching Otule, I think he will continue to grow and has improved immensely on last year already. There is no way he would have successfully executed a post move the first time he got the ball last year like he did on Friday. He may surprise some people at times and actually be serviceable this year. If he is able to continue to improve, next year I would expect something like Ous his senior year only with better hands and a little more size. That being said, a big is definitely needed this coming recruiting class, and just about every one after that, just to continue to have height on the team. This is something Buzz realizes. I'm hoping for Black as he could contribute immediately but these types of players generally need a fair amount of coaching before they are really ready to contribute.
DEFINITELY need a PF in the mix with this class...
If they could put a few pounds on Mbao, I'd liken him to a poor man's Thabeet...I remember seeing Thabeet his frosh year and he was a twig with very mediocre coordination...if you could add a little size to this kid and just shove him in the lane on the defensive end, he could be EXTREMELY effective in blocking / altering shots in a few years...
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... after only 423 days on the job.
Hilarious.
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Not really. Majerus had a defining moment with Joe Wolf. Couldn't get it done or he may still be MU's coach. Crean missed on all his moments.
Buzz has delivered alredy in 400+ days on the job. Success breeds success, especially in recruiting. I'm saying Buzz will be more successful than either Majerus or Crean at MU.
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Chicos can and will rip otule and Mboa all he wants as not being "stud big men" but i will respnd by simply saying ..."at least Buzz is trying!!"
Crean would go a recruiting class or two in a row without signing any size whatsoever. It seemed becuase we had no big men he felt he had to sign one that could star from day 1, and if he could not do that he would not sign any at all. He signed merrit in class #1 then Ooze 5 years later, throw in Kinsella and I beleive he only singed 3 guys in 9 years over 6'8"!!
Buzz is not so stupid, he will recruit the best big men he can and take the best available, whether it be McMorrow, Mboa, Otule or whomever he knows if he signs one a year in a few years he will have one that is a senior and one that is ajunior and two in tutelage.
Anyone that watched MM saw Otule's growth. Also anyone that watched MM saw Mboa's skill and Bball IQ that kid was underecruited big time. he is 20 pounds away from being a stud. By his junior year he will be a houselhold name in the BE.
Give Buzz time on the "stud " part of signing stud big men but in the mean time i give him huge kudos for at least freking signing them. he has signed 3 players 6'10 or bigger in 3 years where Crean signed 3 in 9 years.
Chicos will alsways find something to rip on. But in ayear or two when these guards are rolling otule and Mbao and potential a big yet to be signed will be developed enough to give these new guards something the 3 amigos never had.
one last thing Chicos is .... there is simply no other way to describe ... He rips Buzz for his recruiting and says something along the lines that " steve Lavin could recruit too and look at what that got h. steve lavin got run out of town becuase he did not immediately duplicate the success and national championships of harrick. Instead of refernecing the hundreds of coaches that had tremendous sucess he finds one coach that he thinks did poorly in relation to his talent.
But even his comparing Buzz to Lavin is pathetic, for here is lavin's Bio Chicos rips Buzz and compares him to lavin as if Lavin was Bob Dukiet. here are the real FACTS and chicos like to tell people he deals in...
During Lavin's tenure as a head coach, he was one of only two coaches in the country, along with Duke's Mike Krzyzewski, to lead his team to five NCAA "Sweet 16s" in six years ('02, '01, '00, '98, '97). Lavin guided UCLA to six consecutive 20+ game winning seasons and to six consecutive NCAA tournaments. As head coach, his career record in the first two rounds of the NCAA Tournament is 10-1.
wow if buzz is so god awful to perform as poorly as steve lavin then i am pretty damn excited. Chicos could you not find someone else to compare buzz to? I am sure if you look really hard you can find some other coach that failed miserably that you could comapre our coach to.
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edited for over the top personal attacks.
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What i cannot figure out is why he is still allowed to post on here. Please ban Chicos.
Well someone needs to be banned here...or at least given a timeout...and it aint Chicos.
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Any sadder than your passive aggression toward anything positive that MU did between 1999 and 2008?
MU84 you are dead wrong I have never been that way to anything positive between 1999 and 2008. I went to hundreds of games with dozens of them being on the road. Never did anything but cheer for Mu and want them to win sometimes more than anything, actaully always. Spent tens of thousands of dollars supporting Mu bball.
Yet i did think the head coach during that time at least during the last 5 years of his tenure greatly underserved MU, not only in the area of performance on the job but also in the way that he treated fans and alums. I beleive he held his employer hostage on an annual basis and was a prick that i did not feel should be employed by my alma mater; as i said because of who he was and becuase of his performance.
if you think that made me ever root any less hard for the warriors then you simply dont get it. I will always love MU and Mu basketball and that is precisely why i hated Tom Crean and was estatic the day he severed all association with my alam mater. the chicken littles like you saw it as a threat as a sure turn for the worse. I saw it as an opportunity that 90% of the coaches out there could and would do a better job in the areas of representing the university, coaching and recruitng. And since then some littel hayseed that no one had ever heard of with no credentials and no chance has proven to you what me and others already knew.
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I'm guessing buzz would be annoyed to think that people are discussing his defining moment after only 423 days on the job.
As I said above, I hope this is the first of many defining moments he will have at Marquette. It is a significant moment, but I think Buzz will use it as a springboard.
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Buzz can recruit, we know this. But I'm totally interested in his manner of coaching the games this year...although it sucks being short-handed and whatnot. But I'm interested to see his game coaching manner this year, because I dont wanna say last year was 'easy', but it'll be easier than this year, for sure.
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Buzz can recruit, we know this. But I'm totally interested in his manner of coaching the games this year...although it sucks being short-handed and whatnot. But I'm interested to see his game coaching manner this year, because I dont wanna say last year was 'easy', but it'll be easier than this year, for sure.
There is no question Buzz can recruit...now we need to see if the man can coach. I respect him for being so honest and open with his opinions and thoughts, but two years now he's flat out said that "someone got hurt, they've fallen behind as a result, and he won't wait for them to catch up"...
Let's be real, last year Buzz relied HEAVILY on his top 6 players and did very little to develop the inexperienced guys he had on his bench (even during the cupcake part of our schedule). Supposedly, the knock on him during his one year at NO was the same thing...he didn't use his bench, he rode his stars too often. IMO, Buzz is recruiting the type of team that SHOULD roll 10 deep every night; he now needs to develop trust in all of them and use them consistently if they're ever going to grow into real players...
That said though, I am so psyched for the direction Buzz has this program going...good things are coming, kids...
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sorry ICE but if you want to find blame as to why Buzz only played 6 kids you need look no further than Bloomington , IN. We had 6 kids worthy of being on a BE roster. yet you want a coach that 90 percent of the fanbase said was a bad choice to play 12 deep and risk losing winnable games. Dont blame buzz for creans inability to assemble a BE worthy roster.
as an aside I love the people that say just becuase you are playing a short bench that you are not developing the other players. Hello these kids spend approx. 20 hours a week in practice and play 1 or 2 games if you are a star that might mean you spend 70- minutes aweek playing in games. If You have never played basketball or coached a lick of it if you think you get better by playing 5-10 minutes of game action versus the 20 hours of practice. They are devoping the players even if they dont get the 5 minutes that coach potatoies see as so vital in their "development". the amazing strides Otule made from last year to this are only becuase he got a few minutes in afew games right ? other wise he couldnt make a local junior high team ::)
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Let's be real, last year Buzz relied HEAVILY on his top 6 players and did very little to develop the inexperienced guys he had on his bench (even during the cupcake part of our schedule). Supposedly, the knock on him during his one year at NO was the same thing...he didn't use his bench, he rode his stars too often. IMO, Buzz is recruiting the type of team that SHOULD roll 10 deep every night; he now needs to develop trust in all of them and use them consistently if they're ever going to grow into real players...
Hmmm.
Last year's "inexperienced" guys probably would consist of Fulce, Otule, Butler and Hazel.
Otule and Fulce were injured early, including most of the cupcake part of the schedule, and even when they could play they had lots of catching up to do. Hard to get experience for injured players.
Butler, as I think we can all agree, developed quite nicely as the season progressed, averaged 20+ minutes per game the last two months and became a huge contributor down the stretch.
Hazel actually got solid minutes early and was given every opportunity to play and develop until, for various reasons, I suppose, Buzz pulled the plug in mid January.
So, of the four "inexperienced" guys, two were held back by injuries, a third just didn't cut it and a fourth developed significantly. Given the circumstances - not to mention the need to win - I'd suggest Buzz did what one could reasonably expect to develop these guys.
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as an aside I love the people that say just becuase you are playing a short bench that you are not developing the other players. Hello these kids spend approx. 20 hours a week in practice and play 1 or 2 games if you are a star that might mean you spend 70- minutes aweek playing in games. If You have never played basketball or coached a lick of it if you think you get better by playing 5-10 minutes of game action versus the 20 hours of practice. They are devoping the players even if they dont get the 5 minutes that coach potatoies see as so vital in their "development". the amazing strides Otule made from last year to this are only becuase he got a few minutes in afew games right ? other wise he couldnt make a local junior high team
This is a great point. Players are developed in practice, not in games. A backup might get 6 minutes of game time in a week with and only get the ball in a scoring situation a couple of times. This doesn't even compare to the hours and repetition they get in practice.
I don't often agree with you, Hayward, but I think people should recognize that Buzz (and staff) develop these guys when we're not watching. If a coach/staff has a good reputation for developing players, I think this says a lot more about their practice habits than their game substitution patterns.
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What i cannot figure out is why he is still allowed to post on here. Please ban Chicos.
Agreed. All Chicos does is come on here frequently and weigh in on the discussions taking place! We can't let this happen. If we let Chicos share his opinions and insights picked up from working in/with various Athletic Departments and DirectTV, where does it stop? How dare he give credit to people when other people believe they don't deserve credit! This is the first step on a slippery slope, and do you know where it ends? Anarchy. Total anarchy. We can't take this risk. Chicos must be stopped.
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This is a great point. Players are developed in practice, not in games. A backup might get 6 minutes of game time in a week with and only get the ball in a scoring situation a couple of times. This doesn't even compare to the hours and repetition they get in practice.
I don't often agree with you, Hayward, but I think people should recognize that Buzz (and staff) develop these guys when we're not watching. If a coach/staff has a good reputation for developing players, I think this says a lot more about their practice habits than their game substitution patterns.
I should probably clarify...I don't disagree with you at all. My father played in college and coached at a high level as well. There's no question that these boys develop more in practice than game situations.
Yes, injuries slowed fulce and o'tule's progression...NO QUESTION about it. And you're right, Hayward...Crean left Buzz an inbalanced roster. I'm simply stating that injuries and fatigue happen...and early in the season when we were beating up on the "little sisters of the poor", guys like Hazel, O'Tule (who was healthy by then, but "behind"), Acker and Cubi (who both regressed early last year) should have seen more than 2 minutes of mop up time so that they were prepared to step up in pressure situations when we needed them down the stretch
I'm not bad-mouthing Buzz and I agree that he was limited in what he could do last year. But depth shouldn't be a problem for us moving forward (which I'm stoked about) and I hope he gets everyone more involved because it will only help us in the long run...
As for development in practice vs in-game...my only argument is this: Any D1 player can knock down a free throw in practice; but in the BEast these boys need to handle the pressure, the noise, and the adrenaline...that comes with playing...
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the chicken littles like you saw it as a threat as a sure turn for the worse. I saw it as an opportunity that 90% of the coaches out there could and would do a better job in the areas of representing the university, coaching and recruitng. And since then some littel hayseed that no one had ever heard of with no credentials and no chance has proven to you what me and others already knew.
Wrong. The realists like me saw the potential of a turn for the worse. And that's giving you the benefit of the doubt that this year's backslide is going to be temporary.
Those of us who don't base our feelings on some personal animosity saw that MU had a charismatic, media-savvy coach that was well liked by the national press and kept us front and center on ESPN.
Yeah, he promoted himself as much as his school--no different than Knight, Coach K, Olson, McGuire. Yeah, he leveraged his success into pay increases--as if any other person in the same spot wouldn't do the same.
Those of us who have been around a while have seen MU hire six coaches in the post McGuire era, only two of which--Crean and O'Neill--could reasonable be termed successful.
Those of us who are realists see promise in Buzz, but also accept that with that promise comes a whole lot of risk. Buzz might surpass Crean's accomplishments someday--but he hasn't done so yet. And no matter what you want to belive about him being "coach for life", he is a guy who has steadily worked his way up the coaching ladder, with 9 stops in 19 years.
Trust me--I'll give Buzz just as much credit as I give Crean if he's still here in 2017, with a final four and five NCAA tournaments under his belt. But until then, I'm going base my comments on realism--not some "Crean Bad/Buzz Good" pablum based on some personal sleight from a basketball camp.
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Back to Vander....
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
TARIK...you're next!
;D
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Buzz has said all along that he wants 13 quality scolie players on the team - I assume so he can use them on the court. I think we will see a lot of players playing this year, and in the years to come. Nothing better for a coach than to look down the bench and be able to put another kid in and not miss much of a beat.
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Since Hayward brought his name up, and I'm just curious, is McMorrow still at MU & was he at MM?
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Back to Vander....
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
TARIK...you're next!
;D
Thanks for rebooting the discussion. It's amazing how a positive post turns into the usual Crean Bashing(fornever and PRN), Hayward vs. Chicos, .......
Great job Buzz! I can't wait to see Vander in a MU uniform and this year's team play. I think message boards at schools with football must have fewer sidetracks.
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Chicos can and will rip otule and Mboa all he wants as not being "stud big men" but i will respnd by simply saying ..."at least Buzz is trying!!"
Crean would go a recruiting class or two in a row without signing any size whatsoever. It seemed becuase we had no big men he felt he had to sign one that could star from day 1, and if he could not do that he would not sign any at all. He signed merrit in class #1 then Ooze 5 years later, throw in Kinsella and I beleive he only singed 3 guys in 9 years over 6'8"!!
Buzz is not so stupid, he will recruit the best big men he can and take the best available, whether it be McMorrow, Mboa, Otule or whomever he knows if he signs one a year in a few years he will have one that is a senior and one that is ajunior and two in tutelage.
Anyone that watched MM saw Otule's growth. Also anyone that watched MM saw Mboa's skill and Bball IQ that kid was underecruited big time. he is 20 pounds away from being a stud. By his junior year he will be a houselhold name in the BE.
Give Buzz time on the "stud " part of signing stud big men but in the mean time i give him huge kudos for at least freking signing them. he has signed 3 players 6'10 or bigger in 3 years where Crean signed 3 in 9 years.
Chicos will alsways find something to rip on. But in ayear or two when these guards are rolling otule and Mbao and potential a big yet to be signed will be developed enough to give these new guards something the 3 amigos never had.
one last thing Chicos is .... there is simply no other way to describe ... He rips Buzz for his recruiting and says something along the lines that " steve Lavin could recruit too and look at what that got h. steve lavin got run out of town becuase he did not immediately duplicate the success and national championships of harrick. Instead of refernecing the hundreds of coaches that had tremendous sucess he finds one coach that he thinks did poorly in relation to his talent.
But even his comparing Buzz to Lavin is pathetic, for here is lavin's Bio Chicos rips Buzz and compares him to lavin as if Lavin was Bob Dukiet. here are the real FACTS and chicos like to tell people he deals in...
During Lavin's tenure as a head coach, he was one of only two coaches in the country, along with Duke's Mike Krzyzewski, to lead his team to five NCAA "Sweet 16s" in six years ('02, '01, '00, '98, '97). Lavin guided UCLA to six consecutive 20+ game winning seasons and to six consecutive NCAA tournaments. As head coach, his career record in the first two rounds of the NCAA Tournament is 10-1.
wow if buzz is so god awful to perform as poorly as steve lavin then i am pretty damn excited. Chicos could you not find someone else to compare buzz to? I am sure if you look really hard you can find some other coach that failed miserably that you could comapre our coach to.
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edited for over the top personal attacks.
I don't rip players, at least I try very very hard not to. They're 18-22 year old kids and I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. If I didn't rip the bigs we had in the last 15 years, why would I rip our current bigs?
And yes, only someone as bright as you could defend Steve Lavin. He's a nice guy and a good commentator, but there is a reason he was fired from UCLA. He brought in great talent but didn't know how to coach them at all. You see, when alums see #1 recruiting classes year in and year out but then on the court they lose to teams by 35 to 45 points, lose to Princeton in the NCAA, etc, etc....well they don't like that so much. Not sayin, just sayin.
And you really need to use that search function more often. I'm not ripping Buzz at all, only saying that getting top recruits is only one part of the puzzle. So far so good with Buzz, not sure why you think that's a rip....but if I said water is wet you would bitch about it. LOL, enjoy life there sugarplum
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Wrong. The realists like me saw the potential of a turn for the worse. And that's giving you the benefit of the doubt that this year's backslide is going to be temporary.
Those of us who don't base our feelings on some personal animosity saw that MU had a charismatic, media-savvy coach that was well liked by the national press and kept us front and center on ESPN.
Yeah, he promoted himself as much as his school--no different than Knight, Coach K, Olson, McGuire. Yeah, he leveraged his success into pay increases--as if any other person in the same spot wouldn't do the same.
Those of us who have been around a while have seen MU hire six coaches in the post McGuire era, only two of which--Crean and O'Neill--could reasonable be termed successful.
Those of us who are realists see promise in Buzz, but also accept that with that promise comes a whole lot of risk. Buzz might surpass Crean's accomplishments someday--but he hasn't done so yet. And no matter what you want to belive about him being "coach for life", he is a guy who has steadily worked his way up the coaching ladder, with 9 stops in 19 years.
Trust me--I'll give Buzz just as much credit as I give Crean if he's still here in 2017, with a final four and five NCAA tournaments under his belt. But until then, I'm going base my comments on realism--not some "Crean Bad/Buzz Good" pablum based on some personal sleight from a basketball camp.
Well stated. My position will remain the same on this....the frustrating part for me has always been MU's constant need to take a risk each coaching hire. I was hoping we were finally over that, but we weren't. So far, it's worked out well and let's hope that continues. It does amaze me, however, when you look at the MU men's basketball coaching hires over the last 40 years, not one guy came over from a high major program to be our head coach. All were assistant coaches from elsewhere, assistant coaches promoted within, or mid major head coaches (Sienna, Belmont Abbey, St. Peter's).
When Buzz leaves (here we go, someone will say this is me being negative....it's not, my assumption is that he will leave like every other coach in DI leaves....eventually.....hopefully that's a decade down the line) I suspect MU will do the same thing again. It worked with O'Neill and Crean hires as well as McGuire. It failed with Rick, Hank (some will disagree, but that's my opinion), Deane, Dukiet. Jury out on Buzz, but so far looks like it works.
With the amount of $$$$ we spend at MU (some publications rank us #1 in the USA on basketball expenditures) you would think we wouldn't have to take that risk each time and pray it works. Oh well, in the meantime I'll sit back and hope this current risky hire (not just my words, Andy Katz, SI, ESPN, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, etc, etc) continues to do well. So far, so good!
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You see, when alums see #1 recruiting classes year in and year out but then on the court they lose to teams by 35 to 45 points, lose to Princeton in the NCAA, etc, etc....well they don't like that so much. Not sayin, just sayin.
Wasn't that Jim Harrick's regime? I thought they lost to Princeton the year after the won it all under Harrick?
Also, being Steve Lavin isn't all bad. I believe he married a centerfold. And he's still rumored for job openings every year.
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You guys are so cool. I can't wait to grow up and be just like each of you. No need to continually attack, react, attack, react ad infinitum, because each of you are super. Now that all the egos are massaged, please release the hijacked thread.
And as for getting Blue, I am currently on top of my desk doing the happy dance. Very difficult to type while doing so...
GO WARRIORS!!!
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Any sadder than your passive aggression toward anything positive that MU did between 1999 and 2008?
+1
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Wasn't that Jim Harrick's regime? I thought they lost to Princeton the year after the won it all under Harrick?
Also, being Steve Lavin isn't all bad. I believe he married a centerfold. And he's still rumored for job openings every year.
You're right, Lavin's team lost to Detroit in the first round...Harrick's last year (Lavin..was the assistant was when they lost to Princeton)
Here are the Lavin's accomplishments and struggles
#1 recruiting class in USA 1998 and 2001
7 McDonald's All Americans signed
6 straight NCAA Appearances, but at UCLA they want progress in those tournaments, they didn't see it.
Where Lavin got in trouble was his results were not matching his recruiting classes and he got labeled as a bad coach. When you continue to land top talent but don't bring home conference titles or Final Fours, you get labeled quickly....fairly or unfairly. Lavin couldn't overcome that. He finished 3rd in the Pac Ten 3 times, 4th one time and a dreadful 6th twice...you can't finish 6th in the Pac Ten (10 teams) when you have top recruiting classes in the country - it cost him his job.
There were also some absolute monster blowouts. When people here get upset about MU being routed vs Kansas, well we got beat by a squad loaded with 4 and 5 star players. UCLA was getting crushed in some games despite having tons of 4 & 5 star players on their own roster.
UCLA fans expected with their top ranked recruiting classes to not lose to Duke by 38, Cal by 45, Kentucky by 26, 29 to Cal, etc, etc.
Rest assured, some of those same expectations will come now with Buzz. When you bring in top classes, people expect you to win and win big. Other coaches will be more than willing to point out to recruits if it doesn't happen, just the nature of the beast. It's a good problem to have, however. Let's hope he can keep it going.