What is happening Eagle Nation, I am an IU man and I have been lurking here for several months trying to gather why some here despise TC so much. And as of yet I really cant figure it out, outside the fact he left on short notice.
I can tell you this IU fans are thrilled to have Tom C in Bloomington. After years of Mike Davis and Kelvin S, TC is a breath of fresh air.
I have been reading here lately that TC can't recruite? He may have not done a good job at Marq. but at IU he is really getting it done. The 09 class is top 10 nationally and IU is in the lead for Kyrie Irving, Marques Teague, and Moses Morgan. With Matt Carlino already wrapped up for 2011.
I am posting because I really cant understand the venom "some" at this site have toward TC, he has nothing but good things to say about Marq, the town, the players, and the fans. I think he is a good man who demands a lot out of his players...... and after growing up with Bob Knight I would have it no other way.
I am not posting to stir up a pissing match but I like this board and if I don't get banned for accusations of trolling I will hang around. I am an old Al MCG fan..... :)
go Hoosiers
If you've been reading this board as you say you have and aren't simply trolling then you know very well why people were upset with II, II, who couldn't be bothered to tell his beloved players or administration he was leaving. So please don't start this up again. The vast majority of us are in the I don't care mode. I'd like to keep it that way.
The man was an absolute prick of a person and absolutely overated as a coach and recruiter. Shameless self promotion has you IU fans all warm and fuzzy during the honeymoon period...as time goes by you will better understand why Mu fans are happy you have him and not us.
If you ignore the posters MR.HAYWARD,4everwarriors, & PuertoRicanNightmare you will see most of us are happy with the success TC brought, but fairly disappointed how he left (in the cover of darkness with ESPN telling his 4 starting seniors he left to IU).
Yes he is salesman, yes he is egotistical, and yes he knows how to recruit. His coaching is still fairly up in the air, seemed to over-coach at times.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on June 13, 2009, 06:54:19 PM
The man was an absolute prick of a person and absolutely overated as a coach and recruiter. Shameless self promotion has you IU fans all warm and fuzzy during the honeymoon period...as time goes by you will better understand why Mu fans are happy you have him and not us.
wrong.... hard work has us warm and fuzzy... He is recruiting his ass off! What did this man do to all of you here? He got you to a final 4, he brought you to the Big East, and he did recruite the loaded team you had last season. I can understand being pissed because he left, but calling him a prick as a person? Many of you come off here as simply bitter. Don't hate the player, hate the game..... It is
Indiana after all! :)
Quote from: reinko on June 13, 2009, 06:56:36 PM
If you ignore the posters MR.HAYWARD,4everwarriors, & PuertoRicanNightmare you will see most of us are happy with the success TC brought, but fairly disappointed how he left (in the cover of darkness with ESPN telling his 4 starting seniors he left to IU).
Yes he is salesman, yes he is egotistical, and yes he knows how to recruit. His coaching is still fairly up in the air, seemed to over-coach at times.
I will agree with this, he did some puzzling thngs at the end of games last season. But all in all, with what he had I was pleased. If IU had a PG on the roster that could handle the ball they would have won 4 or 5 more games.
I would like to see Crean and Buzz get a home and home going!!
Home and home will NEVER happen.
TC and Buzz are good friends and TC knows that even though he had 9 pretty good years here his reception at the BC would be chilly to say the least because of the way he left.
Agreed MuMark, as many would say...Too soon!!
The 2 reasons for the hatred from MU fans:
1) the way he left, which I personally got over a long time ago.
2) trying to lure Erik Williams (an MU verbally committed recruit due to the work of Buzz Williams when he was an assistant) to IU - a classless move on his part.
If you've been reading then you know that your class is ranked top 10 and ours is at worst top 15 (at best #1). TC left MU b/c IU was a better job. I agree. But I for one at shocked that with all that PT that he couldn't crack a top 5 class. Your boy is over-rated. We did a little better in the coaching merry-go-round.
Calipari, right or wrong is showing you how a real coach recruits when given a top 5 opportunity.
At the end of the day...TC is a really good coach for a school like MU; a really mediocre coach for a school like IU. Too bad you red-neck hicks ran Davis out b/c his skin was a little darker than your preferred.
C&C, this is a pointless thread because whatever anyone says it's obvious you're going to vehemently defend TC. We don't care about Tom Crean here. We're all sick of these threads. Leave it alone.
Quote from: The Lens on June 13, 2009, 07:46:11 PM
If you've been reading then you know that your class is ranked top 10 and ours is at worst top 15 (at best #1). TC left MU b/c IU was a better job. I agree. But I for one at shocked that with all that PT that he couldn't crack a top 5 class. Your boy is over-rated. We did a little better in the coaching merry-go-round.
Calipari, right or wrong is showing you how a real coach recruits when given a top 5 opportunity.
At the end of the day...TC is a really good coach for a school like MU; a really mediocre coach for a school like IU. Too bad you red-neck hicks ran Davis out b/c his skin was a little darker than your preferred.
Red neck hicks, and calling me (IU fan racists).... hmmmmmm ..... so classy ;) Well as far a coach Cal goes I think ANYONE who has a clue as to what was going on at Memphis and what is going on at UK knows that WWW is the reason for all of the phenomenal recruiting success of Cal in recent years. And that is something that cannot be denied. If Crean wanted to associate with "go betweens" to kids then I guarantee you IU would have had a top 3 class.....
IU cannot just to and offer "any" player, we are in ARP trouble thanks to all the idiots KS let run wild and Story and Williams did not help. IU is fine right now but truthfully "one and dones" if we could land them are not really the best option right now....
And Marq does have a great class coming in but who has it ranked 1??? C'mon now.. Indiana is all over Irving and Teague and should land them.... add Carlino in 2011 and IU WILL be back to a top 5 squad.
By the way no need to be so hateful, it is just basketball.....
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on June 13, 2009, 06:54:19 PM
The man was an absolute prick of a person and absolutely overated as a coach and recruiter. Shameless self promotion has you IU fans all warm and fuzzy during the honeymoon period...as time goes by you will better understand why Mu fans are happy you have him and not us.
Quote from: MilWarrior on June 13, 2009, 07:52:22 PM
C&C, this is a pointless thread because whatever anyone says it's obvious you're going to vehemently defend TC. We don't care about Tom Crean here. We're all sick of these threads. Leave it alone.
that's cool, just don't click it then........ I simply am trying to get a different perspective that the one I get daily on the IU board. But you may be right, I think I will get nothing here (for the most part) but insults... oh well. :(
Some of you have been polite and I thank you.
My dislike of the departed has nothing to do with the method in which he chose to leave. In short, he's an egotistical, overrated phony who cares first, foremost, and only about Tom Crean. He should kiss DWade's toes each night for the position in life he now enjoys. Believe it or not CNC, you and other Hoosier faithful won't be singing his praises in about 4 years. He's a masterful used car salesman whose snakeoil act gets old real fast, especially for those of us who readily see through it. Oh, BTW, don't count on all those recruits wearing the Hoosier uni, Crean won't deliver.
I hope not ;)
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on June 13, 2009, 08:10:38 PM
Red neck hicks, and calling me (IU fan racists).... hmmmmmm ..... so classy ;) Well as far a coach Cal goes I think ANYONE who has a clue as to what was going on at Memphis and what is going on at UK knows that WWW is the reason for all of the phenomenal recruiting success of Cal in recent years. And that is something that cannot be denied. If Crean wanted to associate with "go betweens" to kids then I guarantee you IU would have had a top 3 class.....
IU cannot just to and offer "any" player, we are in ARP trouble thanks to all the idiots KS let run wild and Story and Williams did not help. IU is fine right now but truthfully "one and dones" if we could land them are not really the best option right now....
And Marq does have a great class coming in but who has it ranked 1??? C'mon now.. Indiana is all over Irving and Teague and should land them.... add Carlino in 2011 and IU WILL be back to a top 5 squad.
By the way no need to be so hateful, it is just basketball.....
Something tells me Self recruited better to KU and Williams to UNC. You do realize you have a top 5 job.. why is your boy bringing in +/- top 10 talent with all that PT?
How you didn't have the #1 class is beyond me. It's Indiana. That's the one true thing TC ever said.
PS like him or not HoopScoop has our incoming class #1.
CNC:
Disagree as this is not a pointless thread at all. "We don't care about Tom Crean here / sick of threads" is 95% incorrect. TC constantly comes up in thread after thread here.
So, indeed, many here were / are disgusted with how Crean left. After relentlessly promoting "ownership" and "family" Crean was generally rewarded for this (by most) as a king. His leaving was a dagger, but what was indeed interesting was how quickly the reverence turned to abject hatred.
From an IU perspective, that probably sounds like jilted lover syndrome. So disregard that.
No doubt, IU can expect and will receive many good things from Crean: Good graduation rates, clean program, mostly superb alumni relations, excellent marketing of your program.
But there are things to watch for.
While promoting IU, he will be promoting himself. The truth is, his personal PR is better than the reality of his recruiting, development, and coaching.
Your post-season dreams will mostly go unfulfilled. In 9 seasons at MU, Crean took MU to 5 NCAAs, 3 NITs. 5 of those 8 were one-and-dones. 2 had one victory (one of those was a NIT year), 1 of course, was a Final Four with D. Wade, one of the best players alive in the NBA. Without Wade, Crean had a total of one NCAA victory. One -- and keep in mind, that one victory NCAA victory, those one-and-dones were with teams that had finished in the top 25.
The last 3 years of Crean's tenure, each year, the natives got more restless with the lack of any sort of March victory.
I really believe that Crean's coaching abilities had topped out at Marquette. As I said, you'll be happy with many items Crean brings to the table. I'll bet he gets you to an NCAA berth in 2 years.
But in 6-7 years, IU fans will look back with your 1 NCAA victory and a string of one-and-dones, and think, man, those Marquette guys told me so.
Crimson, you are a regular on at least one of the Indiana boards in which there have been raging discussions about this matter(you are not the only person who lurks). I think you knew exactly what type of reaction your post would cause. If you want to discuss basketball, please feel free. But to say innocently that you didn't intend to spark anything is, frankly, unbelievable. Must not have much to do this summer.
Tom Crean did great things for Marquette which allowed many to overlook his large ego.
I don't think anyone would have been upset had Crean simply given heads up to his players and the administration. Crean had reached his peak at MU and no one could blame him if he left for a program with the history of IU.
Instead he left in the middle of the night allowing his players to find out via Sportscenter.
So I thank Crean for everything he did at Marquette but he can F off now. Also I have to enjoy the struggles he his having now because in a few years IU will be good again. Probably not good enough to please the IU faithful but NCAA tourny good.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on June 13, 2009, 08:50:18 PMWithout Wade, Crean had a total of one NCAA victory.
You mean without Robert Jackson. A Wade-led team lost in the first round in 2002. And everyone remembers Wade's triple double against Kentucky, but forgets that Jackson put up 24/15 in that game.
It amazes me to this day that his most prominent success was with a definitive post threat and an outstanding guard, and yet it seems that Crean almost refuses to recruit a dominant big man.
TC was a good coach and was good for MU. He was a great promoter of MU, a good coach, ran a very clean program and could recruit guards very well when he had playing time to sell but he does have a lot of warts.
Here is a small list of negative things that he accomplished:
1. Alienated MU's all-time scorer (before McNeal) and radio announcer George Thompson
2. Rarely had an assistant last more then 2 years
3. Rarely made it past the first round of the NCAA tourny
4. Coached great in November but mediocre in March
5. Provided us with one too many strange injuries that might or might not have involved tackling dummies
6. Provided some of worst defeats ever including an NIT home game against Western Michigan where I don't believe we broke 50 and a Louisville game where we lost by 40 plus
7. Couldn't recruit a big with skills that wasn't extremely raw and most had disappointing playing careers
8. Provided us with enough player transfers that could last another decade. I believe we had 2 complete washout classes.
9. Would always gamble on a late late signing after a transfer and they never ever were worth it
10. Got into it with opposing fans on more then one occassion that showed how much of a prick he really was
You guys were able to tolerate Bobby Knight who was one of the biggest pricks around so maybe TC is right up your alley. All in all, I appreciate what he did at MU as he did do a lot of good things but I am not sad to see him go.
Quote from: Brewtown Andy on June 13, 2009, 09:25:18 PM
It amazes me to this day that his most prominent success was with a definitive post threat and an outstanding guard, and yet it seems that Crean almost refuses to recruit a dominant big man.
+1
TC is still a very young man, he can learn from his mistakes.... and I am sure he will. As far as not bringing in bigs, IU has Tom Pritchard 6-9 returning and in 09 Bawa Muniru 7' monster w (offers from Lou, Okla, Okla St, Kentucky, and Auburn) D. Elston 6-8, Bobby Capobianco 6-8, and Christian Watford 6-8.............
Things are going to be OK at IU.
When we land Irving and or Teague it is on once again in Hoosier land. And I expect both will sign, however they may both be one and done's..... :(
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on June 13, 2009, 09:49:08 PM
As far as not bringing in bigs, IU has Tom Pritchard 6-9 returning and in 09 Bawa Muniru 7' monster w (offers from Lou, Okla, Okla St, Kentucky, and Auburn) D. Elston 6-8, Bobby Capobianco 6-8, and Christian Watford 6-8.............
Recruits that haven't arrived on campus can't be counted in that discussion. And Pritchard would probably be in the top 5 6'8"+ guys Crean ever brought to Marquette.
C&C toward the end of Creans coaching, there were two camps regarding Tom Crean. The first who wanted to fire him, the second that defended him. In the end, the firing camp was delighted he left. I would say the defending camp split. Some remained objective and saw the good he did for the program. The others felt betrayed. Hence, it is really hard to stereotype a Marquette fan on how they feel about Tom Crean. Everything you read about Crean in this tread and others are true. Just whose eyes do you want to look through. You have your own rose colored sun glasses on. In the end I think Crean was ready to move on from Marquette. But also, I think Marquette was ready to move forward from Crean. The BEAST is a brutal conference. Crean did his best and I appreciate it. But I think the great majority of Marquette fans are excited about our new coach and the players he is bringing in. To us, Tom Crean is a memory but he is your future. Good luck, GO MARQUETTE!
Joanie,
Hope everyone enjoys Indiana. It's Indiana. Good to hear from you so soon.
Quote from: muhoops1 on June 13, 2009, 11:28:11 PM
Joanie,
Hope everyone enjoys Indiana. It's Indiana. Good to hear from you so soon.
Didn't you mean Abe?
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on June 13, 2009, 09:49:08 PM
TC is still a very young man, he can learn from his mistakes.... and I am sure he will. As far as not bringing in bigs, IU has Tom Pritchard 6-9 returning and in 09 Bawa Muniru 7' monster w (offers from Lou, Okla, Okla St, Kentucky, and Auburn) D. Elston 6-8, Bobby Capobianco 6-8, and Christian Watford 6-8.............
Things are going to be OK at IU.
When we land Irving and or Teague it is on once again in Hoosier land. And I expect both will sign, however they may both be one and done's..... :(
CNC, I don't think you understand. You're on an MU board, we don't care how Indiana does and whether or not things will be OK there.
Let's just say this about Tom Crean...I would not be at all surprised if you were Tom Crean, coming onto the MU board to defend yourself and make yourself look like a savior. That is exactly why a lot of MU fans couldn't and can't stand Tanning Tom Crean. (Also if you didn't notice he's always extremely tan, even in December in Wisconsin, and no, that is not his natural skin color...again, you can say "so what?" but it says more that he is more about his own appearance than he is about anything else)
crimensonNCrean are you trying to be crimsonNd-bag because your doing a good job at it. keep it up!!!
You got a good summary as to why people don't like him. Did I mention again that he has an inability to recruit quality big men. This should once be emphasized because he never did it(1 year doesn't count because that is a statistical outlier, like D-Wade, - meaning an event that doesn't happen that often or RARELY EVER). I don't know what lies he plans on spewing toward those big men but good god.
He had his chances and as Pat Riley would say "Coulda Woulda Shoulda"!!!
Quote from: reinko on June 13, 2009, 06:56:36 PM
If you ignore the posters MR.HAYWARD,4everwarriors, & PuertoRicanNightmare you will see most of us are happy with the success TC brought, but fairly disappointed how he left (in the cover of darkness with ESPN telling his 4 starting seniors he left to IU).
Yes he is salesman, yes he is egotistical, and yes he knows how to recruit. His coaching is still fairly up in the air, seemed to over-coach at times.
After touting "family," the above bold statement was the biggie.
After years of being "classy," that move was classless.
Crean was a good coach here but definitely huge ego and overrated. I also don't believe he was a GREAT recruiter as I still fully believe not even he knew Wade would be half as good as he is now. It was just kind of a freak thing where Wade just became amazing. I mean props for finding him and all which is impressive. But people are just angry in the manner Crean left and realized how he only cares about himself. Not even telling your team you are leaving is just pathetic. I mean, IU is definitely a better job with the legacy and offers better recruiting but you would think he would leave in a respectable manner.
QuoteTC is still a very young man, he can learn from his mistakes.... and I am sure he will.
Don't count on it. His huge ego as mentioned by others gets in the way of him believing he makes mistakes.
Thanks Crean for turning our program around.....but now he's dead to me. His true self couldn't help but come out in the manner in which he left.
Crean ran a clean program and graduated his players. He promoted the hell out of the MU program and himself. He is a human being with flaws and a coach with weaknesses/blindspots. I would give him a solid B/B+ for his time at MU. I got over his departure in about a week. And I think that being at IU will take care of his MU weakness of being unable to recruit quality bigs. This weakness led to his fundamental coaching weakness of very poor in-game adjustments.
There is a better than 50/50 chance he will be more successful at IU than he was at Marquette. So be it. There is a better than 50/50 chance that Buzz Williams will do better at Marquette than Crean did. And in the end, that is what I care about.
I do a lot of interviewing in my job, and one thing we clearly focus on is behavior based questions, and when we look into a candidates past work experience we often see a different picture from what they are claiming their future will bring. Many people have already pointed out his strengths and weaknesses. The one thing any employer of TC's has to understand, from past behavior, is that he will act as an individual in deciding upon his future, and will do whatever he feels is best for him at any given moment. If you see the success from TC that IU requires from its coach I'd be willing to bet he'll be entertaining offers from the NBA in no time. While some feel IU is a better job than MU, and understand his move, you also need to understand there will always be jobs better than IU. He runs an offense that is very NBA like, and while that plays well with recruits, you better believe he'll also use that to work towards his advantage if he sees success at IU. If a man is willing to leave the 3 amigos, without consulting them, the university or his family I wouldn't ever feel comfortable with him as my coach if he is having success.
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on June 13, 2009, 08:10:38 PM
C'mon now.. Indiana is all over Irving and Teague and should land them.... add Carlino in 2011 and IU WILL be back to a top 5 squad.
CNC If you're top 5, tell me who you are going to be better than? Which FIVE of the following programs will be worse than IU in three years?
Izzo at MSU
Matta at OSU (look at who he recruits!)
Williams at UNC
Self at KU
Calhourn at Uconn
Coach K at Duke
Howland at UCLA
Calipari at KU
Pitino at 'ville
In three years a typical IU season will end with you ranked 14th, finish second or third in the B10 (behind MSU and OSU) and exit in the second round ot the tourney. Why do I say this? Because this is what Crean did at MU.
Your statements are exactly why you've seen a few posters say "Crean was good for MU." MU did not expect to be "top 5". You do. What I described above made MU happy. You'll run him out of town for this kind of "failure?"
Crean will be able to consistently recruit better players at IU, than he did at MU. I doubt he will have the type of drop off in recruiting classes at IU than he did at MU.
Thanks for all of the opinions....... I am hoping for the best for TC and Buzz.....
Time will tell, and IU fans have big expectations for the program.... not necessarily this coming season but definitely in the 10/11 campaign (at least a tourney bid ). He took over a miserable situation that got even twice as bad once he arrived. And look at what he left at MU to come to IU, I have a lot of respect for him for doing that... not many coaches would leave a top 10 team for a train wreck.
If he can just land the big fish in state he will be fine, and it appears he is well on his way towards doing just that. Teague, Ferguson, Patterson, Zeller, Plumlee, and DSV....
It appears that the move on TC's part was right for both sides. He is exactly what IU needed at the exact time... and it sounds like Buzz is exactly what MU needed at the exact time. It is to bad James had to go and get hurt, MU would have had a very strong chance at final 8 at least......
Good luck next season Eagle fans...... :)
Quote from: GOMU1104 on June 14, 2009, 08:44:49 AM
Crean will be able to consistently recruit better players at IU, than he did at MU. I doubt he will have the type of drop off in recruiting classes at IU than he did at MU.
If you really look at it, Crean has never been able to bring in quality talent without ample playing time to offer. Top 5 programs don't have that problem. We'll see what happens in 2 years when Crean doesn't get to say to kids "there's no one else on the team. You're the star I need to put this together. You're looking at 40 minutes a game at Indiana."
Maybe he'll do better than he did here, but he hasn't proven an ability to recruit without some version of the above speech being true.
You'll learn. Come back here in a few years and let us know how you feel about him. Anybody with any ounce of character judgement will learn quite quickly what a horse's ass he is.
Incidentally, Indiana used to be my second favorite team.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on June 14, 2009, 10:50:36 AM
You'll learn. Come back here in a few years and let us know how you feel about him. Anybody with any ounce of character judgement will learn quite quickly what a horse's ass he is.
Incidentally, Indiana used to be my second favorite team.
Are all of you that are bringing up his "character flaws" basing this on the way he left? What else did he do, you all make it sound like he beats children, and kicks puppies for fun, did he refuse to sign some autographs for sick kids? ..... I grew up in Indiana during the Bob Knight era and I guarantee you TC cant be any more abrasive than the General was.....
Every one in the media likes him, his ex players like him, the IU ex players like him, and nobody nationally appears to have an axe to grind with him. I am puzzled where all of this comes from.
that is why I made this post, to see if I could get some examples of his wrong doing... but all I am getting is "opinions" on him.
But, seriously what did he do that was so offensive to everyone?
CnC,
I'll offer my opinion, but it is an opinion shared by a number of MU fans, Crean's last three years at Marquette were a tremendous disappointment. One NCAA tournament win (against a badly undermanned Kentucky team, that probably should have been in the NIT), with consistent top 25 talent, showed the man was a horrible in-game coach.
If you're questioning some of the late game play now, let us know how you feel in the next two years when Indiana has top 10 talent and cannot get beyond the second round of the tourney. The man is a sub-par game coach, and you will scratch your head at the lack of player development.
Crean did a lot of good things for Marquette, I will applaud his service, but he was not the coach to take the program to the next level.
Quote from: TJ on June 14, 2009, 10:20:51 AM
If you really look at it, Crean has never been able to bring in quality talent without ample playing time to offer. Top 5 programs don't have that problem. We'll see what happens in 2 years when Crean doesn't get to say to kids "there's no one else on the team. You're the star I need to put this together. You're looking at 40 minutes a game at Indiana."
Maybe he'll do better than he did here, but he hasn't proven an ability to recruit without some version of the above speech being true.
Recruiting at Indiana will be different for TC than it was at MU.
Remember, "It's Indiana." As dumb as it sounds, its very true.
Quote from: warriorfred on June 14, 2009, 11:14:16 AM
CnC,
I'll offer my opinion, but it is an opinion shared by a number of MU fans, Crean's last three years at Marquette were a tremendous disappointment. One NCAA tournament win (against a badly undermanned Kentucky team, that probably should have been in the NIT), with consistent top 25 talent, showed the man was a horrible in-game coach.
If you're questioning some of the late game play now, let us know how you feel in the next two years when Indiana has top 10 talent and cannot get beyond the second round of the tourney. The man is a sub-par game coach, and you will scratch your head at the lack of player development.
Crean did a lot of good things for Marquette, I will applaud his service, but he was not the coach to take the program to the next level.
Yes there were a couple of games in the Big 10 season that left me scratching my head thinking "wtf was he thinking" hehe..... but, the team was terribly out maned and we simply did not have a true point guard. If Rivers had been eligible last season he would have gotten us into double digit wins. But all in all the team did improve from beginning to end, and VJ3 really came on late in the season. He was our best player by far the last 10 games... and probably our worst the first 10 games.
Who knows..... time will tell, at least he is all over the instate talent where Mike Davis let an All American team slip right through his hands at IU..... Odon, Connelly, McRoberts, Teague, Carney, Harangody and on and on..... so depressing....
By the way, Wisconsin has been producing some very good talent the last several years... I bet MU and Wisc have had some nice recruiting battles lately......
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on June 14, 2009, 11:01:42 AM
Are all of you that are bringing up his "character flaws" basing this on the way he left? What else did he do, you all make it sound like he beats children, and kicks puppies for fun, did he refuse to sign some autographs for sick kids? ..... I grew up in Indiana during the Bob Knight era and I guarantee you TC cant be any more abrasive than the General was.....
Every one in the media likes him, his ex players like him, the IU ex players like him, and nobody nationally appears to have an axe to grind with him. I am puzzled where all of this comes from.
that is why I made this post, to see if I could get some examples of his wrong doing... but all I am getting is "opinions" on him.
But, seriously what did he do that was so offensive to everyone?
I could care less how he left. I'm just glad he did.
Quote from: warriorfred on June 14, 2009, 11:14:16 AM
CnC,
I'll offer my opinion, but it is an opinion shared by a number of MU fans, Crean's last three years at Marquette were a tremendous disappointment. One NCAA tournament win (against a badly undermanned Kentucky team, that probably should have been in the NIT), with consistent top 25 talent, showed the man was a horrible in-game coach.
If you're questioning some of the late game play now, let us know how you feel in the next two years when Indiana has top 10 talent and cannot get beyond the second round of the tourney. The man is a sub-par game coach, and you will scratch your head at the lack of player development.
Crean did a lot of good things for Marquette, I will applaud his service, but he was not the coach to take the program to the next level.
That first NCAA year we were picked 13th in the Big East, finished 4th and you were disappointed? That team had 3 freshman starting.
The second NCAA team had our best player in a cast.
The third NCAA team won a NCAA game and lost to a top 10 team in the country on a miracle last second shot.
Your expectations were to do better? Based on what considering the experience, injuries and who we were playing?
I think we can all agree that the first few years of Crean ('99 - '04), most of us were pretty psyched to have the Tan Caveman as our coach, then lead us to the Final 4. After that, he missed on a ton of recruiting (especially big men) and his lack of x and o's coaching skills were exposed. I can't tell you how many times I sat at the Bradley Center and watched Crean's zone offense consist of chucking it around the outside for 30 seconds then driving and taking a bad shot or 3. He is not a good strategic coach, and he is horrible at modifying his approach. Everyone in the world knew that Stanford was going to throw the ball inside to a Lopez in the NCAAs two years ago and there was Crean staying "man" D with a 6' 8" guy behind Lopez -- no double-team, no denying the ball, nothing. So instead of forcing one of Stanford's guards to make an outside shot, Lopez gets it within 6 feet and makes the shot -- classic Crean.
But what I detest most about him is the way he left our cupboard bare. In a sense, he had to leave. He had not successfully recruited beyond guards for two/three years and because of it, he would have had the same team in '08-'09 with even less depth, and absolutely nothing coming in the pipeline (other than guards). I think last year's three seniors were also starting to tune him out. I would also say that the Tan Man destroyed Wesley Matthews. You could see what Matthews was able to do once Crean left -- he was finally running free, in an offense that played to his and Jerel's strengths. I don't necessarily think Buzz is a superior coach as he is much more ego-less and flexible.
And finally, Crean tried to ditch us after the Final Four and his ego got in the way of his "secret" U of Illinois interview. Their AD recognized his out of control ego and limited track record. I heard that he then came back to MU and leveraged us for more money saying IL had an offer -- and they did -- to Bruce Weber. He was trying to leave MU the entire last half of the season he was coaching us. A friend in the national sporting media told me in early February of that year, that Crean's dream job was Indiana and that he was waiting for all the chips to fall so he could go there. He was courting them. The chips fell perfectly with Sampson and wallah, he's gone.
Coaches get success and they leave. I get it. But Crean was always about Crean. I think Buzz will eventually leave us and go to a Texas or Oklahoma school to be back home. But I think Buzz's approach is more based on doing the right thing, and to a certain extent, his relationship with God (not to get religious). I just feel like when he eventually does leave, he will do it right and we will all wish him well.
Enjoy your Crean euphoria while it lasts. Now, I actually root for Bucky to win two games a year!
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on June 14, 2009, 11:01:42 AMEvery one in the media likes him, his ex players like him, the IU ex players like him, and nobody nationally appears to have an axe to grind with him. I am puzzled where all of this comes from.
If you have lurked on this board, you will know that a lot of us are puzzled where all of this comes from too. He was a good (not great) coach for us, and he did a
great job marketing the program (and, yes, marketing himself). We got college Gameday, we had lots of good press, and he put us back on the map. This was in addition to putting a competitive team on the court in a very tough conference. I think most fans are fairly appreciative of what he accompished at Marquette, and those that absolutely hate him are in a small minority.
All in all, he set the stage pretty well for Buzz. I hope Buzz takes full advantage.
Everyone was pissed at how TC left. Now that the dust has settled, the vast majority of fans have moved on......Buzz helps. After one season with Buzz, I can honestly say I am glad TC left. They are both great recruiters, but Buzz is totally dominant as far as game-coaching. TC is well below average in that department and that is a pretty critical area. Now that I think about it, he wasn't just well below average there.......he was downright awful.
3 senior guards, who can also play will make any coach look pretty damn good. Just ask Mike Davis (Coverdale, Fife, Hornsby)
But I like Buzz, he is a very good recruiter and I think this is the season MU fans will see truly how good a coach he really is. And I think he will do fine.... Like I stated earlier I want to see a home and home.... I would travel to Milwaukee in a heartbeat for that.... I bet it would be a dam hot ticket....LOL
What are all of your expectations for the Warriors this season?
Quote from: DomJamesToTheBasket on June 14, 2009, 04:43:01 PM
Everyone was pissed at how TC left. Now that the dust has settled, the vast majority of fans have moved on......Buzz helps. After one season with Buzz, I can honestly say I am glad TC left. They are both great recruiters, but Buzz is totally dominant as far as game-coaching. TC is well below average in that department and that is a pretty critical area. Now that I think about it, he wasn't just well below average there.......he was downright awful.
::)
So after one year you've determined that Buzz is an above average coach and Crean was downright awful, so awful he got hired by one of the top 5 programs of all time.
...about his in game coaching. You might get top 10 talent because the name on your jersey, but then that talent will come in and your offense will be 300 different variations of a 3 man weave on top of the key until there are 7 seconds left in the shot clock, at which point 1 person will unsuccessfully try to drive to the hoop, only to have to chuck up a desperation 3 with 2 on the shot clock. And he was the most clueless coach ever when it came to attacking a zone. We just had to pray to God that our shots were falling that night, because the ball never got into the middle of the zone and inside the paint (which also brings up the point that he could not recruit a big to save his life). And you would think that the zone would be a problem because of the players on this team, but as we saw, Buzz knows how to coach an offensive team and we loved to play against a zone this year. Lit them up quite often. Makes me wonder what it would have been like the last 4 years with our studs had Buzz been coaching us instead of a guy who was as clueless as I am (actually probably more clueless) when it comes to in game adjustments. I'll give him that he was a great motivator (although he usually had somebody else do the motivating by calling his "friends" to speak to his teams) and was good at preparation, but wow could he not coach during a game.
His defensive scheme is also to play defense all with your hands. Don't move your feet, just go for deflections. What a joke. Other teams with FAR less athletic ability/quickness routinely outshot us from the freethrow line by a WIDE margin with Crean because the team was not taught how to move their feet and stay in front of an offensive player.
And when you have the ball with 10 seconds left down 2, 1, or tied, don't plan on scoring. He'll have somebody slowly jog up the court, get double teamed once they cross half court, and that person will try to dribble away from the defenders as the buzzer sounds, 29 feet from the hoop. AT BEST he will have somebody set a high screen 26 feet from the hoop and the dribbler will be forced way out to the sideline to chuck up a desperate 3 at the buzzer. Clueless
Quote from: wadesworld on June 14, 2009, 06:04:44 PM
His defensive scheme is also to play defense all with your hands. Don't move your feet, just go for deflections. What a joke. Other teams with FAR less athletic ability/quickness routinely outshot us from the freethrow line by a WIDE margin with Crean because the team was not taught how to move their feet and stay in front of an offensive player.
You're cherry picking stats.
If you want to compare defensive approaches, you have to consider the entire story--not just FT attempts:
I see seven defense stats worth considering.
1. FG% defense
2. 3FG% defense
3. Fouls committed
4. Steals
5. Opponent FTs attempted.
6. Opponent Points per shot attempt
7. Blocks
Of the seven, we were better in 2008 in FG% defense, 3FG% defense, Steals, Opp PPS, and Blocks
We were better in 2009 in Fouls committed and Oppenents FTs attempted.
1. & 2. MU held opponents to a lower FG% and 3FT% in 2008 than in 2009:
2008: Opposition FG% .432, 3FG% .295
2009: Opposition FG% .449, 3FG% .347
3. MU committed 110 more fouls in 2008:
2008: MU Fouls: 733
2009: MU Fouls: 623
4. MU made 50 more steals in 2008
2008 steals: 325
2009 steals: 275
5. MU's opponents attempted 167 more FTs in 2007.
2008: MU Opp FTA: 767
2009: MU Opp FTA: 600
6. Opponent's Points per shot (PPS) were damn near equal--albeit slightly better in 2008:
2008: MU opp PPS: 1.1995
2009: MU opp PPS: 1.2215
7. MU blocks were down
2008: 132
2009: 100
Conclusion: You are correct that Buzz managed to lower the number fouls and FT attempts by the opposition.
BUT, it came at the expense of slightly worse FG% defense overall (and significantly worse on 3 point attempts), and a significant dropoff in the number of steals and blocks.
To sum it up, on a points per shot attempt basis, 2008 was very slightly better--but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and call it a wash.
These were two different approaches, with very similar overall results.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 14, 2009, 06:04:44 PM
...about his in game coaching. You might get top 10 talent because the name on your jersey, but then that talent will come in and your offense will be 300 different variations of a 3 man weave on top of the key until there are 7 seconds left in the shot clock, at which point 1 person will unsuccessfully try to drive to the hoop, only to have to chuck up a desperation 3 with 2 on the shot clock. And he was the most clueless coach ever when it came to attacking a zone. We just had to pray to God that our shots were falling that night, because the ball never got into the middle of the zone and inside the paint (which also brings up the point that he could not recruit a big to save his life). And you would think that the zone would be a problem because of the players on this team, but as we saw, Buzz knows how to coach an offensive team and we loved to play against a zone this year. Lit them up quite often. Makes me wonder what it would have been like the last 4 years with our studs had Buzz been coaching us instead of a guy who was as clueless as I am (actually probably more clueless) when it comes to in game adjustments. I'll give him that he was a great motivator (although he usually had somebody else do the motivating by calling his "friends" to speak to his teams) and was good at preparation, but wow could he not coach during a game.
His defensive scheme is also to play defense all with your hands. Don't move your feet, just go for deflections. What a joke. Other teams with FAR less athletic ability/quickness routinely outshot us from the freethrow line by a WIDE margin with Crean because the team was not taught how to move their feet and stay in front of an offensive player.
And when you have the ball with 10 seconds left down 2, 1, or tied, don't plan on scoring. He'll have somebody slowly jog up the court, get double teamed once they cross half court, and that person will try to dribble away from the defenders as the buzzer sounds, 29 feet from the hoop. AT BEST he will have somebody set a high screen 26 feet from the hoop and the dribbler will be forced way out to the sideline to chuck up a desperate 3 at the buzzer. Clueless
All true, and damn were we HORRIBLE when he was here. An absolute joke. Our defense really sucked and our offense was worse. ;D
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on June 14, 2009, 11:33:27 AMIf Rivers had been eligible last season he would have gotten us into double digit wins.
Jeremiah Rivers is not winning you 4 games on his own.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 14, 2009, 01:25:47 PMWe got college Gameday,
And Crean's "Show us an example of what you do out there, coach" segment was the longest TV segment I have ever seen. That just went on FOREVER, and I have no idea what he was talking about.
QuoteIf he can just land the big fish in state he will be fine, and it appears he is well on his way towards doing just that. Teague, Ferguson, Patterson, Zeller, Plumlee, and DSV....
Zeller will join his brother and commit to UNC, count on it. Zeller was quoted in an Indianapolis newspaper saying (paraphrasing here) that Indiana basketball pales in comparison to Carolina basketball. Plumlee has strong ties to Duke with his brothers playing there.
Crean is not going to out-recruit Roy or K and also has Self and Matta (and now Calipari) heavily recruiting in his backyard.....he won't consistently land the top players in the state let alone the country like Roy and K do and if he does, they'll leave just like Williams is doing after one year at IU.
Enjoy the honeymoon.....
Quote from: texaswarrior74 on June 15, 2009, 12:12:43 AM
Zeller will join his brother and commit to UNC, count on it. Zeller was quoted in an Indianapolis newspaper saying (paraphrasing here) that Indiana basketball pales in comparison to Carolina basketball. Plumlee has strong ties to Duke with his brothers playing there.
Crean is not going to out-recruit Roy or K and also has Self and Matta (and now Calipari) heavily recruiting in his backyard.....he won't consistently land the top players in the state let alone the country like Roy and K do and if he does, they'll leave just like Williams is doing after one year at IU.
Enjoy the honeymoon.....
Marquis Teague is a 5 star player from Indiana. He's an absolute stud. He's been offered by Matta at OSU, Purdue, Wake, Louisville, etc, etc.
I would be surprised if he doesn't sign with Indiana and Crean (despite the fact that Teague's dad played for Pitino decades ago). He should announce in the next few weeks at the latest. It's basically between Louisville and IU right now and I think Crean lands him. Number 2 player in the country by some services.
If Crean gets Plumlee, 6-11 kid that he's recruiting again UNC, Duke and Purdue, well that will really be something. Considered a top 10 player nationally as well (but he's from North Carolina so it's a long shot).
Crean is going head to head against us for Kyle Irving for the 2010 class. He's in good with about 8 of the top 25 kids. All he needs to do is land 1 or 2 of them and he'll have another very good class.
Quote from: Brewtown Andy on June 14, 2009, 11:28:49 PM
Jeremiah Rivers is not winning you 4 games on his own.
I agree. You are way overestimating Rivers ability. He wasn't an impact player at Georgetown and they were an early exit NIT team this peast season.
CNC, you want personality issues? Let's talk about the youth basketball camps. Has 10-year-old Riley Crean won all of the awards at the Tom Crean IU Basketball Camp yet?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 15, 2009, 12:45:48 AM
Marquis Teague is a 5 star player from Indiana. He's an absolute stud. He's been offered by Matta at OSU, Purdue, Wake, Louisville, etc, etc.
I would be surprised if he doesn't sign with Indiana and Crean (despite the fact that Teague's dad played for Pitino decades ago). He should announce in the next few weeks at the latest. It's basically between Louisville and IU right now and I think Crean lands him. Number 2 player in the country by some services.
If Crean gets Plumlee, 6-11 kid that he's recruiting again UNC, Duke and Purdue, well that will really be something. Considered a top 10 player nationally as well (but he's from North Carolina so it's a long shot).
Crean is going head to head against us for Kyle Irving for the 2010 class. He's in good with about 8 of the top 25 kids. All he needs to do is land 1 or 2 of them and he'll have another very good class.
once again chicos coming off like he thinks he knows something. if he actaully did he would realize Plumlee grew up in Indiana and his family is from there moved to NC so they could play in a program down there Christs school. stick with little league politics chicos
This is getting so tired...3 pages on Crean because some kid supposedly from Indiana posted a question. Here we go again with everyone in a lather.
The profile of this "kid" says he's 42 years old. ::)
Quote from: Marquette84 on June 14, 2009, 07:34:04 PM
You're cherry picking stats.............
[Stats, Stats and more Stats]
I think the team make-up has as much to do with those stats as the Coach. Ooze had a HUGE impact on the defensive stats.
Quote from: lurch91 on June 15, 2009, 10:35:33 AMI think the team make-up has as much to do with those stats as the Coach. Ooze had a HUGE impact on the defensive stats.
Exactly. That and Jerel focusing more on the offensive end of his game and at times seemingly forgetting about the defensive end of his game. Took way too many gambles and left so many open shots for opposing teams this past season.
It wasn't just that Crean left us all of a sudden. After years of Crean actively trying to get a big time job, whether it was Florida or Illinios, we gave him HUGE contract one after another. It says something when an university is willing to invest 10 more years in a coach and he leaves in 2.
Include that with Crean not winning big games after Wade left and no big men recruits.
THAT said, how can you really say Buzz is that better of a coach. Buzz still had the big 3 and Lazar yet he didn't go that far into the tourney. Let's see how Buzz does with his own players until we anoint him the better of the coaches. As much as I think he is better than Crean, even Buzz didn't show the best class at the end of the season.
Quote from: martyconlonontherun on June 15, 2009, 11:29:44 AM
even Buzz didn't show the best class at the end of the season.
Care to expand upon this?
Quote from: martyconlonontherun on June 15, 2009, 11:29:44 AMIt says something when an university is willing to invest 10 more years in a coach and he leaves in 2.
wasn't it just 1 year?
Quote from: MU_B2002 on June 15, 2009, 11:40:33 AM
Care to expand upon this?
Only thing I remember was the Buzz and Mac story. Buzz apologized to Mac personally, then went on the air/radio to apologize again.
Quote from: MU_B2002 on June 15, 2009, 11:40:33 AM
Care to expand upon this?
Basically, the Mac situation and how he displayed himself on the court at the end of the year. I personally don't think it was a big deal, but some people were upset with both.
Yeah, these things slide, but it is the kind of stuff if he leaves like Crean does we will be looking back and using them as examples.
It was kind of like how Crean shunned Homer at a ton of events. You are talking about guys who were totally loyal to the program for years before they got on campus.
Quote from: martyconlonontherun on June 15, 2009, 11:29:44 AM
It wasn't just that Crean left us all of a sudden. After years of Crean actively trying to get a big time job, whether it was Florida or Illinios, we gave him HUGE contract one after another. It says something when an university is willing to invest 10 more years in a coach and he leaves in 2.
Include that with Crean not winning big games after Wade left and no big men recruits.
THAT said, how can you really say Buzz is that better of a coach. Buzz still had the big 3 and Lazar yet he didn't go that far into the tourney. Let's see how Buzz does with his own players until we anoint him the better of the coaches. As much as I think he is better than Crean, even Buzz didn't show the best class at the end of the season.
you may recall that DJ was injured leaving Buzz with 2 of the big 3, Zar, and no big man. Yet, he produced the same result as TC in the tourney.
Quote from: ATWizJr on June 15, 2009, 12:29:29 PM
you may recall that DJ was injured leaving Buzz with 2 of the big 3, Zar, and no big man. Yet, he produced the same result as TC in the tourney.
And he already had an incredibly short bench to begin with (lost OTule and Fulce as key reserves for portions of the season).
I would simply ask why do you care? Give it a few years and judge for yourself. I think he did a great job while he was here, but I was not sad to see him go. It was time. I don't think he took MU as far as they could go, but I think he took MU as far as he could take them.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on June 15, 2009, 01:18:21 PM
I don't think he took MU as far as they could go, but I think he took MU as far as he could take them.
I really like that statement- it's a good way of looking at his time here. As an undergrad during Crean's era, I was blissfully unaware of his behind-the-scenes flaws but was turned off completely by how he left. If he were to come to a game this season, I'd probably be one to sit on my hands without booing or clapping. A few more years down the road, I'm sure I'd turn into a polite clapper, remembering the day he let us into the Bradley Center two hours early because of the extreme cold.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on June 15, 2009, 06:42:18 AM
I agree. You are way overestimating Rivers ability. He wasn't an impact player at Georgetown and they were an early exit NIT team this peast season.
Although he wasn't on that team, because he transferred last off season. :)
If you're hanging your hopes on Jeremiah Rivers you're in for a long season. I would bet he won't even be a major part of your rotation once the Big Ten season starts.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 14, 2009, 06:03:35 PM
::)
So after one year you've determined that Buzz is an above average coach and Crean was downright awful, so awful he got hired by one of the top 5 programs of all time.
+1. Could be a long season in Milwaukee with so many newcomers and losing 4 starters. Could be a whole different tune playing March 2010.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 14, 2009, 06:03:35 PM
::)
So after one year you've determined that Buzz is an above average coach and Crean was downright awful, so awful he got hired by one of the top 5 programs of all time.
He got the job because he was an adequate coach at MU that knew how to shmooze alumni and run a squeaky clean program (which is what IU needed). The IU AD HAD to get a safe pick to be coach, someone that could make the alumni happy and run a clean program above all. Crean just happened to show just enough on the coaching side as to not be a head scratching pick.
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on June 13, 2009, 07:01:24 PM
wrong.... hard work has us warm and fuzzy... He is recruiting his ass off!
Yeah, he ended up with the second best player in the entire city of Jacksonville, FL. Way to recruit. BTW, who got the best player there and a top 5 Florida kid, while TC got the leftovers? ;D
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on June 14, 2009, 11:01:42 AM
Are all of you that are bringing up his "character flaws" basing this on the way he left? What else did he do, you all make it sound like he beats children, and kicks puppies for fun, did he refuse to sign some autographs for sick kids? ..... I grew up in Indiana during the Bob Knight era and I guarantee you TC cant be any more abrasive than the General was.....
Every one in the media likes him, his ex players like him, the IU ex players like him, and nobody nationally appears to have an axe to grind with him. I am puzzled where all of this comes from.
that is why I made this post, to see if I could get some examples of his wrong doing... but all I am getting is "opinions" on him.
But, seriously what did he do that was so offensive to everyone?
Go back and check his introduction speech at II,II and then go back and check his introduction speech at MU. Same speech, just substitute II,II where he said Marquette and 76, where he said 77 for his first memories of bball and desire to 1st coach. He says whatever it takes to endear himself to people, with little regard for the truth.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 14, 2009, 06:03:35 PM
::)
So after one year you've determined that Buzz is an above average coach and Crean was downright awful, so awful he got hired by one of the top 5 programs of all time.
Well, so did a couple other coaches that didn't turn out so well for that top 5 program. He doesn't really have very big shoes to fill.
a bit of a mocking of Indiana and Crean?
Link: http://ncaabasketball.fanhouse.com/2009/06/16/it-could-be-worse-usc-ask-a-hoosier/ (http://ncaabasketball.fanhouse.com/2009/06/16/it-could-be-worse-usc-ask-a-hoosier/)
Quote from: pbiflyer on June 16, 2009, 11:37:40 AM
Go back and check his introduction speech at II,II and then go back and check his introduction speech at MU. Same speech, just substitute II,II where he said Marquette and 76, where he said 77 for his first memories of bball and desire to 1st coach. He says whatever it takes to endear himself to people, with little regard for the truth.
This isn't so strange if you actually lived through that era. It sounds like you weren't around in the 1970's.
For comparison, It would be similar to 12 year old today 20 years from now remembering Duke and UNC with equal levels of respect. I would expect that if that kid was hired at UNC, he wouldn't mention how much he also loved Duke growing up at his press conference.
Sometimes I think you people are simply insane. Crean was hired at MU--he never said we were the only team he ever loved--he simply said that he followed and respected MU growing up--a claim that doesnt' preclude also following and respecting other teams.
To give you the proper perspective, here are the end-of-year rankings for IU and MU for the 1974 through 1977 seasons:
1977:
MU: 2
IU: 5
1976:
IU: 1
MU: 4
1975:
IU: 3
MU: 5
1974:
IU: 3
MU: 7
When the two best Midwestern teams just happened to be MU and IU, and they both were neck-and-neck every year throughout the middle 70's, it doesn't surprise me to find that someone growing up in that era would have some memory and respect for both.
I know it probably makes you feel better to believe that Crean was lying, but if you look at what was actually going on in the 70's, its not surprising at all that MU and IU would both be part of anybody's remembrances of the era.
It's not like he said he had great respect for Wisconsin in the '70's.
Quote from: Marquette84 on June 17, 2009, 06:56:34 PM
This isn't so strange if you actually lived through that era. It sounds like you weren't around in the 1970's.
For comparison, It would be similar to 12 year old today 20 years from now remembering Duke and UNC with equal levels of respect. I would expect that if that kid was hired at UNC, he wouldn't mention how much he also loved Duke growing up at his press conference.
Sometimes I think you people are simply insane. Crean was hired at MU--he never said we were the only team he ever loved--he simply said that he followed and respected MU growing up--a claim that doesnt' preclude also following and respecting other teams.
To give you the proper perspective, here are the end-of-year rankings for IU and MU for the 1974 through 1977 seasons:
1977:
MU: 2
IU: 5
1976:
IU: 1
MU: 4
1975:
IU: 3
MU: 5
1974:
IU: 3
MU: 7
When the two best Midwestern teams just happened to be MU and IU, and they both were neck-and-neck every year throughout the middle 70's, it doesn't surprise me to find that someone growing up in that era would have some memory and respect for both.
I know it probably makes you feel better to believe that Crean was lying, but if you look at what was actually going on in the 70's, its not surprising at all that MU and IU would both be part of anybody's remembrances of the era.
It's not like he said he had great respect for Wisconsin in the '70's.
Actually, I think he was lying both times. He said whatever made people happy. I doubt that his first rememberances of basketball were either MU or II,II.
But if you go back the 10 years and look at both speeches, you will realize that it had nothing to do with either program. He lifted his MU speech, which was likely crap, and used it again at II,II.
Quote from: pbiflyer on June 17, 2009, 08:26:31 PM
Actually, I think he was lying both times. He said whatever made people happy. I doubt that his first rememberances of basketball were either MU or II,II.
But if you go back the 10 years and look at both speeches, you will realize that it had nothing to do with either program. He lifted his MU speech, which was likely crap, and used it again at II,II.
Now THERES a revelation! A new coach in his first press conference saying something that made fans of his new team happy! Wow--a new one on me.
I'll have to start watching more first press conferences so I can find those honest coaches who on hiring say something like "Folks, I'm only here for the money" or "If I win here, I'll be able to use this job as a stepping stone to bigger and better things." or "Don't forget, this school is way down in the pecking order" or "Remember, I'm not an alum so I'll never care as much as you do."
If you can find such an "honest" press conference, please do post it. If saying things that make a team's fans happy is evidence of lying, then every single coach in America--every single one of them--is a liar.
As for your comment that he was lying BOTH times, it seems to me that it would have been downright impossible to grow up in the midwest during that era and NOT know about Marquette and Indiana (and UCLA perhaps Notre Dame). Hell, I think it would be impossible for anyone in the country to not know these two programs. As I said, it would be like a kid not knowing about UNC or Duke today.
It's obvious you didn't live through that era--its likely that every kid in America at the time knew who Al McGuire and Bobby Knight were.
Quote from: madtownwarrior on June 17, 2009, 09:37:51 AM
a bit of a mocking of Indiana and Crean?
Link: http://ncaabasketball.fanhouse.com/2009/06/16/it-could-be-worse-usc-ask-a-hoosier/ (http://ncaabasketball.fanhouse.com/2009/06/16/it-could-be-worse-usc-ask-a-hoosier/)
Sorry, I don't see the mocking. Please explain
Quote from: Marquette84 on June 17, 2009, 09:39:36 PM
Now THERES a revelation! A new coach in his first press conference saying something that made fans of his new team happy! Wow--a new one on me.
I'll have to start watching more first press conferences so I can find those honest coaches who on hiring say something like "Folks, I'm only here for the money" or "If I win here, I'll be able to use this job as a stepping stone to bigger and better things." or "Don't forget, this school is way down in the pecking order" or "Remember, I'm not an alum so I'll never care as much as you do."
If you can find such an "honest" press conference, please do post it. If saying things that make a team's fans happy is evidence of lying, then every single coach in America--every single one of them--is a liar.
As for your comment that he was lying BOTH times, it seems to me that it would have been downright impossible to grow up in the midwest during that era and NOT know about Marquette and Indiana (and UCLA perhaps Notre Dame). Hell, I think it would be impossible for anyone in the country to not know these two programs. As I said, it would be like a kid not knowing about UNC or Duke today.
It's obvious you didn't live through that era--its likely that every kid in America at the time knew who Al McGuire and Bobby Knight were.
Have to agree. IU and MU were two of the top 5 programs of the 1970's along with UCLA, Kentucky and hard to say for #5....a handful of teams vying for that spot (UNC, NC State, etc).
When I think back at my first memories at that age, I don't think of just one team, I think of many which is likely what Crean was referencing. I think of the Steelers and the Cowboys in the NFL, the Dodgers and Yankees and the Reds in baseball. So if I'm fortunate enough to be named Manager of the Yankees and head coach of the Cowboys in the next 20 years, I'll feel comfortable knowing that if I say my earliest memories were of the Yankees (and then say the Cowboys when I get that gig) I won't be lying. ;)
Quote from: martyconlonontherun on June 15, 2009, 11:55:19 AM
It was kind of like how Crean shunned Homer at a ton of events.
Frankly, that turns Crean into more of a sympathetic figure in my eyes. I can't stand Homer either.
I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilities that Crean did, indeed, grow up a fan of both Indiana and Marquette.
The point about the press conferences, however, is that his remarks were virtually identical. It's indicative of something. We know he's phony as hell, but is he really that lacking in originality? Maybe it is that, considering he pulls everything he does out of leadership books. I hate to belabor a point (actually, I don't), but I cannot see how anybody can even stand the sight of him. He's that big a tool. He's the most disingenious, fake, completely lacking in character or personality individual that I can think of and I'm thrilled he's in Bloomington!
Elequent man, beautiful bro. Truer words were never spoken.
Have to agree with PRN it is not so much what he said it is the fact that he said it. He is a classless fool that has the originality and personality of a cow turd. for example i loved to listen to Deane, Oneill, and now Buzzes shows and interviews not only for the insight that they brought but becuase they were intersting guys. With Crean if you heard one interview you heard them all, i used to go to many post game press conferences especially Higgins, Pitino, and such... lots of fun, Crean like a cold bowl of oatmeal. no character no personality. maybe a parcell's quote if you were lucky.
Some of you will remember i posted a mock speech that Crean would deliver at his introduction and almost nailed it word for word. many people reacted strongly that Crean was an absolute loser for recycling his Mu speech before others pointed out i posted it hours before his press conference... and then they realized i still nailed it. Point is the guy is plastic and a loser. His teams will always underperform because he is afraid and over coaches. his stall offense with a lead lost so many games beaucse he was nervous and played not to lose...indicative of a lack of character.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8021.0
Quote from: Marquette84 on June 17, 2009, 09:39:36 PM
Now THERES a revelation! A new coach in his first press conference saying something that made fans of his new team happy! Wow--a new one on me.
I'll have to start watching more first press conferences so I can find those honest coaches who on hiring say something like "Folks, I'm only here for the money" or "If I win here, I'll be able to use this job as a stepping stone to bigger and better things." or "Don't forget, this school is way down in the pecking order" or "Remember, I'm not an alum so I'll never care as much as you do."
If you can find such an "honest" press conference, please do post it. If saying things that make a team's fans happy is evidence of lying, then every single coach in America--every single one of them--is a liar.
As for your comment that he was lying BOTH times, it seems to me that it would have been downright impossible to grow up in the midwest during that era and NOT know about Marquette and Indiana (and UCLA perhaps Notre Dame). Hell, I think it would be impossible for anyone in the country to not know these two programs. As I said, it would be like a kid not knowing about UNC or Duke today.
It's obvious you didn't live through that era--its likely that every kid in America at the time knew who Al McGuire and Bobby Knight were.
Yeah, it is obvious I didn't live through that era, I only graduated from Marquette in 84. But then again, I was pretty smart, so I could have graduated at a very young age.
So, you admit that his press conference was complete cr*p, both times, since you said that no first press conference is genuine. Thank you for making my point. I appreciate it.
Quote from: pbiflyer on June 18, 2009, 12:26:02 PM
Yeah, it is obvious I didn't live through that era, I only graduated from Marquette in 84. But then again, I was pretty smart, so I could have graduated at a very young age.
I guess you're just not smart enough to have remembered Al McGuire or Bobby Knight.
Funny--I grew up the exact same time as you and can still remember growing up and hearing about MU & McGuire, IU & Knight and UCLA & Wooden.
But don't put your failings on anyone else. Just because
you have a bad memory doesn't mean
everyone does.
Quote from: pbiflyer on June 18, 2009, 12:26:02 PM
So, you admit that his press conference was complete cr*p, both times, since you said that no first press conference is genuine. Thank you for making my point. I appreciate it.
I'm just curious--on the day you were hired, did you tell your boss the names of other companies you respected and would love to go work for?
Quote from: Marquette84 on June 19, 2009, 09:12:10 AM
I guess you're just not smart enough to have remembered Al McGuire or Bobby Knight.
Funny--I grew up the exact same time as you and can still remember growing up and hearing about MU & McGuire, IU & Knight and UCLA & Wooden.
But don't put your failings on anyone else. Just because you have a bad memory doesn't mean everyone does.
I'm just curious--on the day you were hired, did you tell your boss the names of other companies you respected and would love to go work for?
More personal attacks...I love it! Whenever SJS arguments collapse he goes on the attack!
Quote from: Marquette84 on June 19, 2009, 09:12:10 AM
I guess you're just not smart enough to have remembered Al McGuire or Bobby Knight.
Funny--I grew up the exact same time as you and can still remember growing up and hearing about MU & McGuire, IU & Knight and UCLA & Wooden.
But don't put your failings on anyone else. Just because you have a bad memory doesn't mean everyone does.
I enjoy that while you extol your age and intelligence you troll these forums like a 14 year old internet tough-guy.
Whether or not you're making valid points, your arguments would be far stronger without the attitude.
/2cents
Quote from: Skatastrophy on June 19, 2009, 09:32:43 AM
I enjoy that while you extol your age and intelligence you troll these forums like a 14 year old internet tough-guy.
Whether or not you're making valid points, your arguments would be far stronger without the attitude.
/2cents
You are correct, and I apologize. I'll make the point in as factual and attitude-free as possible:
It is a statement of fact that MU and IU were indeed prominent at the same time from 1974 through 1977
Al McGuire and Bobby Knight were both larger than life figures who were quite visible to the fan of the time. Their respective schools--Marquette and Indiana--were in the news quite frequently, and received significant news and sports coverage.
Since I and several others recall following MU/McGuire and IU/Indiana during that era, It is possible for someone to be truthful about a statement that one followed both IU and MU.
- Pbiflyer stated that despite growing up in that era, he doesn't remember MU/Al McGuire and IU/Bobby Knight being prominent at the same time.
Since Pbiflyer doesn't remember that era, he concludes that Crean is not honest when he says he followed both programs.
Pbiflyer has not offered any evidence that my statement of fact is incorrect, nor has he acknowledge it as correct and conceded the point that it is possible if not probable that Crean followed both programs growing up as well.
I reject pbiflyer's argument that because pbiflyer doesn't remember, Crean must be making it up.
Who is denying Crean could have followed both Indiana and MU?
People are questioning...and for some reason you're defending...the fact that his statements at both press conferences were almost identical.
Quote from: Marquette84 on June 19, 2009, 12:02:01 PM
- Pbiflyer stated that despite growing up in that era, he doesn't remember MU/Al McGuire and IU/Bobby Knight being prominent at the same time.
I can't find this, and I think if you're inferring it that might be where your argument is going off tack.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on June 19, 2009, 12:10:59 PM
Who is denying Crean could have followed both Indiana and MU?
People are questioning...and for some reason you're defending...the fact that his statements at both press conferences were almost identical.
And I think the follow-up question is, so what. If they were almost identical does that make them any less factual? Isn't that the meat of the matter? He remembered IU and MU growing up and mentioned to the appropriate constituency (the hiring fan base) about that particular school.
Is that not the case?
I get the impression some people here are saying that he lied about MU and really meant IU. Or vice versa. Why can't it be both? Why can't it be that he followed two of the most prominent schools in basketball during that period and mentioned each in his comments to the fans, press, etc?
Why is this such a stretch? I don't find it a stretch at all. We all follow various teams, players, sports, etc. He's just serving up comments to the fan base, in this case IU, that are appropriate for that group.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on June 19, 2009, 12:10:59 PM
Who is denying Crean could have followed both Indiana and MU?
People are questioning...and for some reason you're defending...the fact that his statements at both press conferences were almost identical.
Don't a lot of coaches give the same kind of rah rah acceptance speech?
Think about it this way:
You could substitute MU for IU in Crean's speech, but you couldn't also substitute Crean's name with about 50 other coaches who probably gave a similar "I remember the tradition of this program" type speeches?
I know you will never give Crean a free pass on anything... but seriously, he's like most every other head coach out there. I don't know why you are so outraged with this type of stuff.
Quote from: Marquette84 on June 19, 2009, 09:12:10 AM
I guess you're just not smart enough to have remembered Al McGuire or Bobby Knight.
Funny--I grew up the exact same time as you and can still remember growing up and hearing about MU & McGuire, IU & Knight and UCLA & Wooden.
But don't put your failings on anyone else. Just because you have a bad memory doesn't mean everyone does.
I'm just curious--on the day you were hired, did you tell your boss the names of other companies you respected and would love to go work for?
Um, just because I didn't put it in teal doesn't mean it wasn't sarcastic. Are you really that naive to believe that I could have attended Marquette at the same time as you, lucky enough to break bread with McGuire and I don't know who McGuire and Knight were?
But, you had previously said that b) ALL intro press conferences are bs, yet you also said that b) Crean was genuine in both of his. My logic course at MU taught me that both a and b cannot both be true, so pick one.
Oh yeah my other schools that I applied to? UCLA, Duke and UNC. Could you help me and let me know if any of those schools had good coaches, since I don't know anything about basketball?
Quote from: pbiflyer on June 19, 2009, 02:53:01 PM
Oh yeah my other schools that I applied to? UCLA, Duke and UNC. Could you help me and let me know if any of those schools had good coaches, since I don't know anything about basketball?
Depends when you applied. :D Farmer was dreadful at UCLA and Lavin not much better.
Quote from: pbiflyer on June 19, 2009, 02:53:01 PM
Um, just because I didn't put it in teal doesn't mean it wasn't sarcastic. Are you really that naive to believe that I could have attended Marquette at the same time as you, lucky enough to break bread with McGuire and I don't know who McGuire and Knight were?
I truly don't get your position--you seem genuinely offended when I said you didn't know about or follow Al McGuire and Bobby Knight while growing up.
So fine, I'll accept that you do remember both Knight & McGuire and they made an impression on you.
Has it sunk in yet that my point is since YOU remember, it is hardly "complete BS" for Crean to have the exact same memory?
Quote from: pbiflyer on June 19, 2009, 02:53:01 PM
But, you had previously said that b) ALL intro press conferences are bs, yet you also said that b) Crean was genuine in both of his. My logic course at MU taught me that both a and b cannot both be true, so pick one.
No, I didn't say any such thing.
If you're going to quote me, you might as well get it right. Here's the exact quote:
"If saying things that make a team's fans happy is evidence of lying, then every single coach in America--every single one of them--is a liar."I'm glad you studied logic--this should make it easier.
Notice the word "If" at the very start of the sentence. Notice the word "then" in the middle. Does the "If . . .Then" construct bring back any of those memories of logic class? It should.
This is a simple and straightforward IF-THEN statement.
Substituting:
A= "saying things that make a team's fans happy is evidence of lying"
B= "every single coach in America--every single one of them--is a liar"
What I said was "
If A,
Then B"
I did NOT say "B", as you claim I did.
Quote from: pbiflyer on June 19, 2009, 02:53:01 PM
Oh yeah my other schools that I applied to? UCLA, Duke and UNC. Could you help me and let me know if any of those schools had good coaches, since I don't know anything about basketball?
In the years 1974 through 77? Sure. UCLA and UNC were good. Duke wasn't (missing the tournament every year from 1967 through 1977).
Oh, wait! You forgot to put that in teal as well. Silly me.
So my serious answer is: Great--you DO know basketball. You DO remember the great teams of the era.
What I don't get is why you can't see how Tom Crean might remember.