Crean has been an incredible hire. He has elevated the program to heights that most of us Dukiet, O'Neil and Dean era fans only dreamed about. IMHO, the things he does well makes him well worth the money. As far as the things he gets criticized for, at least on the boards, I think he's showing a lot of improvement. Two aspects in particular
1. X's and O's. I still think he tends to over coach when we have a descent lead or are within striking distance. This team should be running, gunning and playing balls to the wall D. We just don't execute that well in our half court offense. Seton Hall's comeback was a classic example of trying to take the air out of the ball WAY too early. With that said, he has beaten a bunch of ranked teams this year. Has beaten a few hall of famers. And has done most of his damage on the road in arguably the toughest conference.
2. Player development. This has always been my biggest concern. I'll admit that a fan's expectations for a player's development is probably unrealistic, but I was sometimes frustrated with the lack of improvement from certain players. However, seeing Barro develop into the player he is today has changed my mind. While Crean probably doesn't get enough credit for developing Wade, Diener and Novak into great players, he should be praised for turning coal into a diamond with Barro.
Thoughts on Crean?
As for the first item, I agree that TC does often go into what ends up being a "prevent offense" far too early as we saw in the Final 4 year against Mizzou and Pitt. But, then it often works to MU's favor. Hard to criticize I guess; but, it does happen. As for player development, I think he does fine although staff turnover does impact that quite a bit as well. In the end, I believe TC is an excellent collge head coach. I'm sure one could critique any coach (including the great ones) and come up with a lot of crticisms. Probably the harshest thing one can say about TC is the recruiting results over the 2002 to 2004 era as MU did get caught short-handed (although DW's early departure and TD's injuries impacted the 03-04 and 04-05 season quite a bit). In the end, I give TC a grade of A- or B+.
Quote from: Nukem2 on January 25, 2007, 12:27:23 PM
I give TC a grade of A- or B+.
Didn't you go to MU?? It is A or AB or B...no + or - which I always thought was odd.
Sorry, that was way of topic...just not in a discussion mood but needed a break from the grind. :)
However, great post (as usual) SoCalwarior!!
Quote from: SoCalwarrior on January 25, 2007, 12:16:32 PM
Crean has been an incredible hire. He has elevated the program to heights that most of us Dukiet, O'Neil and Dean era fans only dreamed about. IMHO, the things he does well makes him well worth the money. As far as the things he gets criticized for, at least on the boards, I think he's showing a lot of improvement. Two aspects in particular
1. X's and O's. I still think he tends to over coach when we have a descent lead or are within striking distance. This team should be running, gunning and playing balls to the wall D. We just don't execute that well in our half court offense. Seton Hall's comeback was a classic example of trying to take the air out of the ball WAY too early. With that said, he has beaten a bunch of ranked teams this year. Has beaten a few hall of famers. And has done most of his damage on the road in arguably the toughest conference.
2. Player development. This has always been my biggest concern. I'll admit that a fan's expectations for a player's development is probably unrealistic, but I was sometimes frustrated with the lack of improvement from certain players. However, seeing Barro develop into the player he is today has changed my mind. While Crean probably doesn't get enough credit for developing Wade, Diener and Novak into great players, he should be praised for turning coal into a diamond with Barro.
Thoughts on Crean?
I don't get it. why are you down on a guy who did fantastic jobs on 4 guys. Don't you think he did the same thing for the others? Don't you think he would have done great things with ODB? I think people who don't develop are hitting a celing they would have hit with most coaches.
State, I graduated in '68. We had +'s and -'s in those days. Do they do it differently now?
In light of this latest run, I've been thinking of Crean and realizing how good he has been at MU. When he took over from Dean, the cupboard was bare but he did a good job with what he had. I was a huge fan of his at the time and of course everyone was when D-wade exploded on the scene. Following the Final Four appearance, I've been down on him not just b/c of our won/loss record, but the transfers and the coaching turnover have made me question the state of the program. But last years team and seeing the team come together as a team and the development not just of Barro but also Matthews and others have made me realize that even with the concerns I have, we are lucky to have him. I don't think I'd rather have any other coach in the Big East.
I personally can't think of too many coaches I would rather have represent MU than Tom Crean. Some on these boards will never give him his due until he wins back to back to back championships, or so it seems but I think he has elevated this program to a higher level that I never thought we would ever reach again. The MU job was a stepping stone program for just about every coach out there until Tom showed up. I know Deane would have stayed here forever but he was content on having a mediocre program with little attendence. Tom just gets it. He expects his players to win but he also expects them to graduate, be respectful and be upstanding citizens in any community and all of that reflects very well towards MU. Yes, Tom is not perfect as he does make mistakes but who is perfect?
In the words of the immortal Ron Burgandy with a slight deviation - Stay classy MU!
Quote from: Nukem2 on January 25, 2007, 02:19:35 PM
State, I graduated in '68. We had +'s and -'s in those days. Do they do it differently now?
I know I'm not state, but an answer is an answer...They do grades by A, AB, B, BC and so on now....no +'s or-'s
Quote from: maxpower773 on January 25, 2007, 04:09:40 PM
Quote from: Nukem2 on January 25, 2007, 02:19:35 PM
State, I graduated in '68. We had +'s and -'s in those days. Do they do it differently now?
I know I'm not state, but an answer is an answer...They do grades by A, AB, B, BC and so on now....no +'s or-'s
And it's been that way at least since '93....
Back on topic - I think we've seen TC mature a lot at MU. He's always been a good motivator (I credit that to his psychology minor...) but he's becoming a better developer and coach. I also think he realizes more now where he does need assistance, and then brings in the assistant coach talent that the team needs to succeed.
In recruiting, he's learned how to build a team, and keep bringing in talent to fill the existing, or expected holes. Now, Marquette isn't always able to get the talent that they want, but that's not for lack of trying. His ability to recruit and bring in quality people has been very impressive. Having a successful AND mature (read: clean) team is a difficult task to accomplish.
Quote from: maxpower773 on January 25, 2007, 04:09:40 PM
Quote from: Nukem2 on January 25, 2007, 02:19:35 PM
State, I graduated in '68. We had +'s and -'s in those days. Do they do it differently now?
I know I'm not state, but an answer is an answer...They do grades by A, AB, B, BC and so on now....no +'s or-'s
From experience, there is no DF. If you get lower than a D, you fail. :'(
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 25, 2007, 04:15:40 PM
And it's been that way at least since '93....
...at least since 87...
I agree on the prevent offense. However, I'm not sure that was the case last night. Marquette was pushing the ball all night they just had a stretch where they missed some front ends, played some pretty crappy defense and Seton Hall hit some pretty tough shots.
Overall, I am quite happy with Crean. I guess I break it down like this...
Marketing/Status of Program- how could anyone complain? We are in a Top 6 conference, sell out games, get more mentions in the media than ever before (well, except for the 70's perhaps).
X/O's- probably the area I most concerned with Crean; but he is so young; it is just going to improve; he definitely overcoaches and his half-court sets have left his own teams very confused on what to do at times.
Development- quite happy in this area; players, for the most part, have done nothing but improve under Crean. I don't know why people think he is poor in this area.
Recruiting- very happy as well; we had some weaker classes but we have had some fantastic classes; we are not going to have Top 10 classes year in and year out and that's okay.
Integrity- still undecided here; I have to give Crean the benefit of the doubt; outside of the transfers, nothing points to anything suspicious going on; players are graduating and problem kids haven't been allowed to stay around.
Results- hard to complain; you can throw out his first two years since it wasn't his teams; since then, I think there was one team that truly disappointed me (Diener's senior year); outside of that, very good results.
1980 or 1981 I think. Majerus gave me a C/D in his course on Coaching Basketball and I asked him to reconsider so he gave me an F/U. Rick was actually very interesting and kind in his grading for that critical core class.
A coach is only as good as...
...his assistants with whom the daily routines are entrusted.
...the players he recruits who must meet and exceed the expectations placed upon them.
...the university that supports him.
...the fans may think of him. ;D
Therefore...Crean is a GREAT coach!
I was a freshman in 79-80 school year, and it was AB BC etc then.
As far as Crean is concerned, since Al McGuire, the only coach who left the program in better shape than he found it was Kevin O'Neill. I thought O'Neill had positioned us to be fixtures in the top 25 year in and year out had he stayed. This was after a decade of NIT if we're lucky basketball which had degraded to a 10-18 season and getting spanked by the likes of Iona and Fordham. His recruiting classes were consistently very good. On the other hand, his teams were brutal to watch, with their incessant walk it up half court game, and their pack it in, no gambling zone defense.
Now, Crean took over a program that was in OK shape, though scheduled for a few lean years due to a few slow recruiting years from his predecessor, who was an excellent game coach and a disinterested recruiter.
Now look at us. We sent a player to the NBA three of the last four years and have 3-4 current guys (James, McNeal, Matthews and Barro) who will at least get a look, though only James is sure to suit up in the NBA. We have an exciting team that wins and plays hard. We have a coach who goes out of his way to promote the school and outwardly gives every indication that he loves Marquette and has no desire to leave. We have announcers saying after they meet with our players that if they had D-1 capable sons they would want them to play for our coach. We made a freakin' FINAL FOUR! I never thought I would see that! We have top facilities. What's not to like? I guess a few more postseason wins in conference and NCAAs would be good, but he gets an A+ from me. (Is that an AA in MU grading, or is there no such thing? Believe me, I never threatened to get better than an A).
PS - I can't stand his prevent offense either and have been moaning about it five times a year on these boards since I knew they existed. But if that is all their is to complain about, I'll take it every time.
Solid A, no question about it.
Kids graduate, we win 20 games a season, we compete in one of the top leagues in the country and compete WELL, we are mentioned with top recruits, facilities, etc.
Every coach fans have issues with on play calling or schemes or whatever. A lot of times it's the players not following directions very well or adjusting to a learning curve.
To me, the fact he has been here 8 years and signed a 10 year extension is enough to get people excited. The turnover at coaching was brutal the previous 20 years and that had to stop. HAD TO STOP.
Now it has and that is a great relief for all of us. It means stability and growth. I have no doubt we will have a few "down" years in the next 10 no different than every other major program but the level of "down" will not be anything like it was in the 1980's or 1990's. In fact, I would be surprised if we ever have a losing season under Crean and expect on average we will continue on that same tract with some years exceeding what has become a "successful norm".
Quote from: MarquetteDano on January 25, 2007, 06:06:25 PM
Recruiting- very happy as well; we had some weaker classes but we have had some fantastic classes; we are not going to have Top 10 classes year in and year out and that's okay.
I, too, am happy overall with the job TC has done. However, I am not satisfied with his job that he has done recruiting, particularly regarding bigs. IMO, in order to be in the mix for the upper echelon in the Big East year-in and year-out, we will need to recruit at least 2 "top 100" players per year and one or two "diamonds in the rough." Also, the JC recruiting route is not a recipe for building a strong and stable program. TC, too often, is using the JC route as a stop gap for filling out the team. 2005 was a good recruiting year but 2006 and 2007 look like years where we got borderline top 100 players in Hayward and Mbakwe. The rest of those classes are either development projects or mid-major level talent, IMO. 2008 is a critical year for re-loading since the big three (or more likely there will be only be two left at that time) will be graduating and there could be a dearth of talent. Let's hope, along with Nick Williams, TC gets someone like JaMichael Green and another 4 or 5 star player to round out the class of 2008. I am not optimistic given his recent track record but let's see. He needs to stop behaving like we are a good Conference USA team and instead recruit like we are an upper echelon Big East team.
Quote from: downtown85 on January 26, 2007, 03:59:21 PM
I am not optimistic given his recent track record but let's see. He needs to stop behaving like we are a good Conference USA team and instead recruit like we are an upper echelon Big East team.
Wait! We are an upper echelon BE team, and these are all his recruits. So I guess he's doing ok... 8)
I think it's only a matter of tiem before we start sealing the deal on some of these recruits. we get looks from a bunbch of top 100 kids, and usually 2 or 3 top 20 kids as well. The program in a way had to re-establish itself as a top tier big east program in the eys of recruits. we had a solid first season, and now we are backing it up this year. it's hard to get recruits to choose us over uconn, cuse, pitt if they aren't sure we can compete. i think we are proving we can...
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on January 26, 2007, 04:04:35 PM
I think it's only a matter of tiem before we start sealing the deal on some of these recruits. we get looks from a bunbch of top 100 kids, and usually 2 or 3 top 20 kids as well. The program in a way had to re-establish itself as a top tier big east program in the eys of recruits. we had a solid first season, and now we are backing it up this year. it's hard to get recruits to choose us over uconn, cuse, pitt if they aren't sure we can compete. i think we are proving we can...
You are right. Maybe I am impatient. Rome wasn't built in a day. However, I would like to see MU mentioned as a choice of more top 100 kids on the recruiting services, particularly PFs and Centers. MU and TC seem to do well at attracting guards but we are not really considered an option yet for legit forwards or centers. That needs to change. The simple fact almost everyone on this board longs for the days (a single season) when we had RJax proves a point. He was a good player but by no means he is not the same caliber as some of the raw talent UConn, Syracuse, G'town recruit for their front line every year. Even Providence seems to have some legit players on their front line we could only dream of. TC needs to concentrate on more than recruiting some good guards but we need to get a couple of legit 6'10" 250lb. (or bigger) monsters to patrol the paint.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 26, 2007, 04:04:02 PM
Quote from: downtown85 on January 26, 2007, 03:59:21 PM
I am not optimistic given his recent track record but let's see. He needs to stop behaving like we are a good Conference USA team and instead recruit like we are an upper echelon Big East team.
Wait! We are an upper echelon BE team, and these are all his recruits. So I guess he's doing ok... 8)
I agree, this year we are upper echelon and I tip my hat to TC and his recruits. However, you have to run just to stand still in the Big East. No resting on your laurels. You've got to make every recruting class count or you will quickly drop out of the upper echelon. 2008 will be critical.
I would argue that Crean has done an effective job in molding Barro into a force down low. I didn't think I would ever end up saying that after watching him play as a freshman. Despite his lanky build, he is pretty quick for a big guy and plays well within our up-tempo offense. He also has a knack for hitting those shots WAY underneath the basket where defenders lose sight of him. If Barro is able to continue to make strides in his game during this off-season, he could be a truly dominant player next year.
That being said, Crean certainly needs to focus on bringing in some talent to replace Barro. Burke has shown flashes of great play this year, but I don't know if he has as much of an upside as Barro did at the same point earlier in his career.
Trevor comes in with the highest recruiting accolades since Jackson and Merritt. He should be a good one, but it always takes the bigs a bit longer to develop. Patience.
I have to scratch my head over comments that suggest that Crean has to do something different recruiting-wise to be in the "top echelon" of the Big East.
We were one of the top 4 teams last year, and arguably the best in conference right now. Without the type of bigs that are being pined for.
And the teams WITH those bigs--most notably Georgetown--have underachived.
And yet, the comments seem to indicate that Crean should do something different with respect to recruiting bigs. We should be more like Georgetown. Or Providence. Or St. Johns.
Sorry, but I don't see it--we're doing better than those teams--not worse. Therefore better bigs aren't the secret to success.
So why do we constantly see arguments that conlcude we can't be successful unless we recruit better bigs?
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 26, 2007, 12:28:43 PM
As far as Crean is concerned, since Al McGuire, the only coach who left the program in better shape than he found it was Kevin O'Neill. I thought O'Neill had positioned us to be fixtures in the top 25 year in and year out had he stayed. His recruiting classes were consistently very good. On the other hand, his teams were brutal to watch, with their incessant walk it up half court game, and their pack it in, no gambling zone defense.
I agree. His defense and lackluster, no fastbreak offense could put anyone to sleep, but O'Neill's MU defenses were consistently in the top 10 in % fg defense in the NCAA at year's end.
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 26, 2007, 12:28:43 PM
Now look at us. We sent a player to the NBA three of the last four years and have 3-4 current guys (James, McNeal, Matthews and Barro) who will at least get a look, though only James is sure to suit up in the NBA.
I disagree. Jerel would make a solid NBA pick. Though "undersized" (talent is NEVER undersized) for the NBA, he has the necessary skills to make a roster and stay as an energy boost from the bench: shooter, slasher, hustler, and most importantly, defender.
I have had people who aren't cbb but nba fans watch a few MU games.
It was McNeal...not DJ...who they thought was the most exciting to watch and the best NBA prospect.
In my opinion TC has rescued a program that was teetering on the brink of obscurity and returned it to the threshhold of national significance.
Go back eight years. MU was a school who's most recent semi-interesting national run was a five-year-old run to the Sweet 16. After which our promising young coach bolted for the greener pastures of the SEC.
Our conference was a mid-Major plus. Certainly better than the "Great Midwest" but not on par with the Bigs that generate all the TV coverage and headlines.
Our Best players were shooters (Wardle) or smallish guards with heart. We overachieved when we won more than we lost with Cinci and Memphis.
Our practice facility had been an outdated dump since Majerus complained to the Jesuits that it was hurting recruiting.
Not sure how many of you guys lived outside of the Midwest at that point but in NYC no one under the age of 40 knew who Marquette was.
All of that being said, MU has always had passion for basketball. At least since McGuire, there's been a longing for the glory and the moxy that the program once brought to the city, the state and to Jesuit Catholic colleges. Marquette needed someone to step up and channel all that passion and potential.
Enter Tom Crean.
Hard working slick recruiter from MSU. Comes in with little head coaching experience but a good will to bust his butt and a good eye for potential. In my opinion, Crean's greatest gift is the ability to recognize and inspire kindred spirits. He saw something in cords and knew that when the time was right this was a guy who would do whatever it took to make things better. That is a very big deal.
And, this is very odd, but in a wierd way, I think Merritt was one of the first real lynchpins for Crean. As frustrating as Scott proved to be during his career, he was the first big time guy who took a chance on MU.
After him the decisions from Wade, Diener, Novak and then the lucky break of Robert Jackson's home sickness put the pieces in place for the Final Four squad.
While some of the recruiting classes after the Final Four weren't what many of us would have hoped, Crean leveraged the FF to build the Al. It took perfect timing but it changes everything. To go from that crappy dilapidated high school gym to a state-of-the-art facility. It just changes the way the school is able to present itself as a serious competitor.
In terms of player development, you've gotta hand it to Crean for backcourt players. He came in and Cordell got infinitely better. Diener improved vastly. Novak came leaps and bounds (I know he's 6'10 and played the 4 but let's not kid ourselves). Dwade went from a pretty good player to arguably the best in the country. This year's guys have also shown great improvement.
The one area that I'd say he was simply awful at coming into this year was developing big men. RJax was clearly the best big of the Crean era. Other than getting into much better shape, it's tough to argue whether the 13 and 8 he put up in the SEC were a whole lot less impressive than the 15 and 8 he put up in C-USA.
The aforementioned Merritt showed little development from Sophomore through senior year. Marcus Jackson never got better inside. Kinsella, hard to tell. Grimm never became a legit DI player and you'd have to argue that in other programs he would have become one of those guys good for 10 - 15 minutes a game.
That is until this year. Ooze's improvement is staggering. His ability to catch and finish in traffic has been a huge asset I never expected to see on this team. Less obvious but also encouraging is the progress we're starting to see with Burke. He's not exactly filling up box scores but he is getting to the right places, making catches, getting a board here and there, and even occasionally finishing inside.
Agree with the other posters that in-game coaching has also shown significant improvement. He seems to have demanded that the team think its way out of some tough jams early and it's paying off now.
Sorry for the long post. Just been thinking about this for a while.
Crean gets an A on my grading scale...(does it really matter if it's A/B or A+ or B-?!? jw
and I like that someone is able to point out how much Ous has improved under TC's coaching...it takes bigs a little longer to develop and i think he's been doing a great job...
there is no way i would change how crean recruits...the talent that he has brought in and the success achieved since being here should be proof enough that he's got a game plan and is executing pretty well w/ it. And to those who think we need more size, we are bringing in some pretty dominant post presences next year.
Rarely post, but thought I wanted to put in my 2 cents.
First, went to MU fall 1977-1982. Had +s and –s in the beginning, changed to A/B by graduation. Think it changed in 1978.
On the coaching front, have been a die hard MU fan since 2nd grade, around 1966 when my brother went to MU. Cried when Rick mount did us in.... in 1968 I think. For you young-ins, knocked us out of NCAA with last second shot from the corner, would have been a 3 ptr today.
Loved Kevin O'neil. Revived a dead program. Thought he was lacking in coaching prowess, but felt he would learn as time went on. In College game, all starts with recruiting, and he was a tireless recruiter that brought the program back from DEAD!!!!!!!!!!
Very disappointed when he left, and got angry when I heard people of my parents generation trashing him for "colorful" language. Dean was a much better coach, but was a joke in recruiting. Did not even try for top level people. Very nice guy, but had to go. And give the "boring and dry" Bill Cords major, I repeat, MAJOR Kudo's for seeing it and taking action.
I have always thought recruiting was an inborn talent that required passionate and obsessive dedication. KO had it, and TC has it. I also feel that TC was not the greatest game coach when he came to MU, and has made many mistakes. But I always felt he was very bright and would learn coaching. The X's and O's can be learned, the relating to the kids and recruiting I think is much more a gift that is nearly impossible to learn.
TC is the kind of person I would love to have in my company! His coaching has improved radically, and I believe it will continue. Even though some may be frustrated that he has not improved fast enough, he is still improving. Anyone who says he has not improved his coaching skills greatly during his MU time is disconnected with reality, and thus not credible!
TC will be considered one of the "legends" before it is all done. Hopefully he will be a legend at MU!!!!!
Quote from: Marquette84 on January 26, 2007, 10:09:30 PM
I have to scratch my head over comments that suggest that Crean has to do something different recruiting-wise to be in the "top echelon" of the Big East.
We were one of the top 4 teams last year, and arguably the best in conference right now. Without the type of bigs that are being pined for.
And the teams WITH those bigs--most notably Georgetown--have underachived.
And yet, the comments seem to indicate that Crean should do something different with respect to recruiting bigs. We should be more like Georgetown. Or Providence. Or St. Johns.
Sorry, but I don't see it--we're doing better than those teams--not worse. Therefore better bigs aren't the secret to success.
So why do we constantly see arguments that conlcude we can't be successful unless we recruit better bigs?
First, let's talk about now. Imagine if we had a player like Georgetown's Jeff Green (instead of Jamil Lott) on our team starting at the PF spot together with Ooze, plus our guards. Where do you think we would be ranked? My point is that you need excellent players at each position to make a run to the final four.
Second, let's talk about the future. Our recruiting classes for 2006 and 2007 were mediocre for a Big East team and substandard for the upper echelon of the Big East. IMO, we need to have 2008 be an outstanding recruiting class or we are all going to be disappointed with the development of the team, i.e., we will drop to a middle-of-the pack BE team like Seton Hall.
Don't get me wrong. I am very happy with the job TC has done. I suppose his success has raised my expectations for the program. I really want the program to be a consistent top-10 program, year-in and year-out. Tell me if my expectations are too high.
If we were talking here after we were 0-2 to start the BE, the comments here would not be so flattering toward TC.
Having said that, Tom Crean is a good coach with a chance to become a great coach.
Gets high marks for recruiting, game prep, developing perimeter guys, fitting offensive schemes to talent at hand, and PR.
Gets lower marks for developing postups (Barro can't creat his own shot off a postup, after 3 years)-----tournament play (except when he had super star DW)-----defensive schemes (not good one on one defenders----particularily inside defense)----
and team perinneally fades down the stretch in the waning weeks of the season (practices too hard/long?).
Murf, bless your heart. I could not have said that better!
Quote from: downtown85 on January 27, 2007, 08:57:11 AM
Don't get me wrong. I am very happy with the job TC has done. I suppose his success has raised my expectations for the program. I really want the program to be a consistent top-10 program, year-in and year-out.
Not aimed at downtown85 specifically.. just a response to that general type of comment.. I agree in that I too really want the program to be a consistent top-X program, year-in and year out. I just wonder that, WHEN we get to that point, our expectations will rise to "consistent top-5 program", and then to "consistent #1 program". At some point, the expectations become simply unrealistic. The questions is, where is that line -- what is a reasonable value of X? I would probably say, for me, that it would be between 15 and 20.
Quote from: Murffieus on January 27, 2007, 09:36:24 AM
If we were talking here after we were 0-2 to start the BE, the comments here would not be so flattering toward TC.
It would not be so flattering because there are a handful of posters who only show up when MU is down. Now when we are winning they are nowhere to be found but at some point in time they will come back out of the woodwork like they always do.
Quote from: downtown85 on January 27, 2007, 08:57:11 AM
First, let's talk about now. Imagine if we had a player like Georgetown's Jeff Green (instead of Jamil Lott) on our team starting at the PF spot together with Ooze, plus our guards. Where do you think we would be ranked? My point is that you need excellent players at each position to make a run to the final four.
Second, let's talk about the future. Our recruiting classes for 2006 and 2007 were mediocre for a Big East team and substandard for the upper echelon of the Big East. IMO, we need to have 2008 be an outstanding recruiting class or we are all going to be disappointed with the development of the team, i.e., we will drop to a middle-of-the pack BE team like Seton Hall.
Yes sometimes I love to think about how good this team would be with Oden or Durant with the guys we have. :-\
Crean knows talent and has been in on some very good bigs until the end. Unfortunately for whatever reason they decided some other university was better suited for them. Its easy to say that I want or expect Crean to sign big time studs but up until now it has not been realistic. When Crean first got the job here, he really didn't have too much to offer recruits other than playing time but somehow he was able to get a steal here or there and look at us now. As far as getting bigs like Oden and Durant, Crean doesn't have a chance but maybe in time he will. I view RobJax, Merritt and Barro as success stories. Burke has potential to be solid, better than Sanders and Mbakwe better yet.
As far as the two recruiting classes you mention, I don't know how you can be upset with them. They are far from substandard. I mean saying substandard hints at.....uhmmm never mind. Cubillan is a very good player, a steal and Hayward is starting and will get a lot better. Next year, Mbakwe is a top 100 player, Christopherson is good and can shoot lights out and the rest have a lot of raw potential. If things work out over the next couple of years, Crean could have an easier time recruiting bigs but it is dependent on Barro, Burke, Mbakwe, Saunders and Hazel.
There is nothing wrong with the recruitng classes.
Imagne if SC kept on playing AAU ball? When he stopped he was a 5-star.
First, I think Crean has done a very good job. No one is perfect, but if you compare us now as a program to where we were 10 years ago as a program.....I will definitely take today. Second, let's look at Crean from the perspective of people who don't care as passionately about MU hoops as we all do. The best way to do that is this. Who wants him at their school? Just recently, I started a thread about how bad the UK faithful want him. His name has been bandied about for the Illinois, Indiana, Ohio St, Virginia, NC State jobs. Pretty heady company. All of those people apparently see a good coach. Right now, his contract has priced him out of most schools' price range. Yay for us. I am glad we have him and hope we keep him for the length of his contract and beyond.
Quote from: mufanatic on January 27, 2007, 11:02:24 AM
Yes sometimes I love to think about how good this team would be with Oden or Durant with the guys we have. :-\
Crean knows talent and has been in on some very good bigs until the end. Unfortunately for whatever reason they decided some other university was better suited for them. Its easy to say that I want or expect Crean to sign big time studs but up until now it has not been realistic. When Crean first got the job here, he really didn't have too much to offer recruits other than playing time but somehow he was able to get a steal here or there and look at us now. As far as getting bigs like Oden and Durant, Crean doesn't have a chance but maybe in time he will. I view RobJax, Merritt and Barro as success stories. Burke has potential to be solid, better than Sanders and Mbakwe better yet.
As far as the two recruiting classes you mention, I don't know how you can be upset with them. They are far from substandard. I mean saying substandard hints at.....uhmmm never mind. Cubillan is a very good player, a steal and Hayward is starting and will get a lot better. Next year, Mbakwe is a top 100 player, Christopherson is good and can shoot lights out and the rest have a lot of raw potential. If things work out over the next couple of years, Crean could have an easier time recruiting bigs but it is dependent on Barro, Burke, Mbakwe, Saunders and Hazel.
I guess what I am saying is that the reason why we are where we are (which is a good place to be) is the 2005 recruiting class. There were 3 top 100 guards in that class and a forward who was (and still is) a project. Since then we have gotten one borderline top 100 recruit each year (Hayward in 2006) and Mbakwe next year. It seems to me every Big East team gets one top 100 recruit each year. The upper echelon teams, UConn, Cuse, and now Pitt, seem to get 2 or 3 top 100 recruits each year.
Another way to say it is this years recruiting class with Cube and Hayward and next year's recruiting class of Mbakwe and a couple of projects is not so bad for a ConfUSA team. However, I think that unless we get some serious talent in 2008, we are not going to be challenging for the BE title for a couple of years after that.
Enough said, I am enjoying this year. Perhaps if we do some serious damage in post season play (which will raise MU's profile even further), TC's recruiting job will only get that much easier and some top talent will be knocking on our door.
Quote from: downtown85 on January 27, 2007, 03:04:43 PM
Quote from: mufanatic on January 27, 2007, 11:02:24 AM
Yes sometimes I love to think about how good this team would be with Oden or Durant with the guys we have. :-\
Crean knows talent and has been in on some very good bigs until the end. Unfortunately for whatever reason they decided some other university was better suited for them. Its easy to say that I want or expect Crean to sign big time studs but up until now it has not been realistic. When Crean first got the job here, he really didn't have too much to offer recruits other than playing time but somehow he was able to get a steal here or there and look at us now. As far as getting bigs like Oden and Durant, Crean doesn't have a chance but maybe in time he will. I view RobJax, Merritt and Barro as success stories. Burke has potential to be solid, better than Sanders and Mbakwe better yet.
As far as the two recruiting classes you mention, I don't know how you can be upset with them. They are far from substandard. I mean saying substandard hints at.....uhmmm never mind. Cubillan is a very good player, a steal and Hayward is starting and will get a lot better. Next year, Mbakwe is a top 100 player, Christopherson is good and can shoot lights out and the rest have a lot of raw potential. If things work out over the next couple of years, Crean could have an easier time recruiting bigs but it is dependent on Barro, Burke, Mbakwe, Saunders and Hazel.
I guess what I am saying is that the reason why we are where we are (which is a good place to be) is the 2005 recruiting class. There were 3 top 100 guards in that class and a forward who was (and still is) a project. Since then we have gotten one borderline top 100 recruit each year (Hayward in 2006) and Mbakwe next year. It seems to me every Big East team gets one top 100 recruit each year. The upper echelon teams, UConn, Cuse, and now Pitt, seem to get 2 or 3 top 100 recruits each year.
Another way to say it is this years recruiting class with Cube and Hayward and next year's recruiting class of Mbakwe and a couple of projects is not so bad for a ConfUSA team. However, I think that unless we get some serious talent in 2008, we are not going to be challenging for the BE title for a couple of years after that.
Enough said, I am enjoying this year. Perhaps if we do some serious damage in post season play (which will raise MU's profile even further), TC's recruiting job will only get that much easier and some top talent will be knocking on our door.
What I am trying to say is that Crean is not to the point where he can walk into any recruits living room and get the recruit that he wants. UConn and Syracuse and North Carolina, Duke, Florida can. UW-Madison can in Wisconsin. Top 100 bigs are a more rare commodity than guards and are much more difficult to get. Unfortunately we are not a name elite school. If Dom received a ship from Indiana, he would have never attended MU. If Wade was moderately recruited by DePaul or Illinois, I would think that Wade probably would not have been here either(Depaul came in the game late I believe and it was too late). Unfortunately, those are the players that Crean looks for. Steals. Barro is a steal. Mbakwe is a borderline top 100 player and a potential steal. Right now we need to recruit and develop bigs with good upsides. I think we are on the right path.
Actually if you look at the number of top 100 recruits we have been getten over the last 5 plus years, I would say that our success rate has been pretty high compared to most other teams. Also Hayward(2006), Mbakwe(2007 and Williams(2008) are all top 100 recruits so we are getting at least 1 a year. Furhermore, I think that the players we have and the ones coming down the pipeline will keep us in the upper half of the Big East which is all you can really ask for. Just look at UConn, great recruiting class and in danger of not making the Big East tourny.
Here is what our future conference USA talent recruits did at the border battle today courtesy of Mark Miller and wishoops. Great info Mark. You might have to cut and paste
http://www.wissports.net/wishoops/courtside/featurearticle.asp?fid=4&nid=13994
For those who don't:
Mbakwe scored 28 and had 10 boards against Randolph in a 73-64 victory and Christopherson had 26 points, 8 boards and 6 assists in the Aquinas 93-68 victory.
Quote from: mufanatic on January 27, 2007, 10:42:36 AM
Quote from: Murffieus on January 27, 2007, 09:36:24 AM
If we were talking here after we were 0-2 to start the BE, the comments here would not be so flattering toward TC.
It would not be so flattering because there are a handful of posters who only show up when MU is down. Now when we are winning they are nowhere to be found but at some point in time they will come back out of the woodwork like they always do.
*cough* harison *cough*
Quote from: downtown85 on January 27, 2007, 03:04:43 PM
Quote from: mufanatic on January 27, 2007, 11:02:24 AM
I guess what I am saying is that the reason why we are where we are (which is a good place to be) is the 2005 recruiting class. There were 3 top 100 guards in that class and a forward who was (and still is) a project. Since then we have gotten one borderline top 100 recruit each year (Hayward in 2006) and Mbakwe next year. It seems to me every Big East team gets one top 100 recruit each year. The upper echelon teams, UConn, Cuse, and now Pitt, seem to get 2 or 3 top 100 recruits each year.
Another way to say it is this years recruiting class with Cube and Hayward and next year's recruiting class of Mbakwe and a couple of projects is not so bad for a ConfUSA team. However, I think that unless we get some serious talent in 2008, we are not going to be challenging for the BE title for a couple of years after that.
Enough said, I am enjoying this year. Perhaps if we do some serious damage in post season play (which will raise MU's profile even further), TC's recruiting job will only get that much easier and some top talent will be knocking on our door.
I think Crean has been able to get some great little guys because he's gotten others to the nba. (seriously why wouldn't you want to play for a coach who got deiner to the nba?) Once he get's barro to the nba, after he's 2nd team all big east next year, then the high school bigs will take notice.
Quote from: mufanatic on January 27, 2007, 05:57:49 PM
What I am trying to say is that Crean is not to the point where he can walk into any recruits living room and get the recruit that he wants. UConn and Syracuse and North Carolina, Duke, Florida can. UW-Madison can in Wisconsin. Top 100 bigs are a more rare commodity than guards and are much more difficult to get. Unfortunately we are not a name elite school. If Dom received a ship from Indiana, he would have never attended MU. If Wade was moderately recruited by DePaul or Illinois, I would think that Wade probably would not have been here either(Depaul came in the game late I believe and it was too late). Unfortunately, those are the players that Crean looks for. Steals. Barro is a steal. Mbakwe is a borderline top 100 player and a potential steal. Right now we need to recruit and develop bigs with good upsides. I think we are on the right path.
Actually if you look at the number of top 100 recruits we have been getten over the last 5 plus years, I would say that our success rate has been pretty high compared to most other teams. Also Hayward(2006), Mbakwe(2007 and Williams(2008) are all top 100 recruits so we are getting at least 1 a year. Furhermore, I think that the players we have and the ones coming down the pipeline will keep us in the upper half of the Big East which is all you can really ask for. Just look at UConn, great recruiting class and in danger of not making the Big East tourny.
I don't really disagree with most of what you say except maybe my view and expectations of alma mater is probably higher (perhaps unrealistically so) than yours. I just hope that TC is able to get two more top recruits in 2008 whether he walks directly into the recruits living room or steals them, I don't care. He shouldn't give up on somebody like JaMichael Green just because Kansas is recruiting him.
I do disagree with you that one top 100 recruit is enough for us to be consitently in the top half of the big east. We need more depth than that and at all positions, not just guards.
you know, one top 100 recruit might do it if he is a top 10!, but we seem to get ONE recruit in the 75-100 category..., and usually at a position where we aren't hemorraging! We need big men! We are getting 2 guards(counting acker), 2 forwards and, maybe, a power forward. And lets face it; DW3 was as big a surprise to TC as he was to all of us! I saw him scrimmage (practice) in Oct his freshman year and had to find out who he was! Imagine how I felt when I learned he was ineligible.
How does BoBo at uw manage to recruit MULTIPLE top 100 players year after year- so much so that he can bank (red-shirt) them, develop them (sometimes for 6 years) and pull them out when he has a need? Admittedly, he gets some haybalers, but wouldn't we love to have a krabbehoft on the bench?
I appreciate that TC swore he'd never be out of guards again, but we need an inside presence beyond 'dumping the ball off of a penetration to an athletic forward'.
We have the 5th largest men's bb budget in the nation, and I am assured by 'powers that be' that the program is in no danger of losing budget. Why are we not loaded w/ high school super stars?
Crean will be able to get big men once he shows that big men will go to the nba from mu. He can get the guards now cause he got TD to the nba, if you are more athletic than TD than you would hope he could do the same for you. So after barro is 2nd team all big east next year and get's drafted in the 2nd round we may start seeing recruiting in that area get easier.