MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: skianth16 on March 07, 2009, 05:07:36 PM
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I cannot explain how upset I was when Buzz was announced as the new head coach last year after having so many impressive options. He has proven over the last few games that the sub .500 mark he posted in his one other year as a head coach was not a fluke.
Buzz never calls timeouts when the other team is on a roll. What kind of coach lets his team get rolled on a 12-0 run without calling a timeout? And free throws? Seriously Buzz? Who doesn't practice free throws? And then flaunts it to the media! You've got to be kidding me. Even junior high girls coaches know to practice free throws (and call timeouts for that matter)
Our defense has gotten progressively worse throughout the year and our offensive sets are horrendous. Apparently all those numbers he looks at haven't made enough impact on him. We give up so many open looks to any team that knows how to pass and our help defense just doesn't happen.
As if Buzz's decision not to foul in the final seconds at Lousiville wasn't bad enough, today was just the icing on the cake. His game management is pathetic and his tough-guy mentality is a joke. Apparently, even the announcers today were upset with him for not calling a timeout to set up a play for a chance to win the game.
That being said, he's got to go. Let's find a real coach.
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He's really a rookie coach. I'm willing to live with the bumps along the road as he grows into a good coach.
He's already shown to be a better recruiter than TC, and he's just as good of a coach if not better IMO. That said, we came out on top.
I'm curious to see how he does with his OWN players
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Wow. While some of Buzz's decisions may be questionable - you are way off your rocker.
I think that the vast majority of MU alums would agree with me that Buzz has been a pleasent surprise.
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Where were you when we were 9-1 in the Big East?
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Unreal. This is why I typically avoid this board after losses.
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I don't think you can attribute much of the success of this season to Buzz. He walked into a gold mine with this team. Williams didn't turn these guys into the players they are today. As much as I hate to say it, Crean is the reason we won 23 games this season.
Williams' decision making is awful. He seems to think that by ignoring all the basic coaching rules that he will be successful, but it's coming back to bite him now that we have a tougher schedule. He has brought absolutely nothing to the table this year.
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Where were you when we were 9-1 in the Big East?
When we were 9-1, I was saying Buzz is an awful coach and should be fired. Obviously, I caught a lot of flack for that then.
While I wish I had been proven wrong for the sake of my alma mater, at least I get to say I told you so.
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I don't think you can attribute much of the success of this season to Buzz. He walked into a gold mine with this team. Williams didn't turn these guys into the players they are today. As much as I hate to say it, Crean is the reason we won 23 games this season.
Williams' decision making is awful. He seems to think that by ignoring all the basic coaching rules that he will be successful, but it's coming back to bite him now that we have a tougher schedule. He has brought absolutely nothing to the table this year.
I couldn't disagree more.
TC never got this much out of these kids. Even Matthews acknowledged that "a blanket has been lifted from the last 3 years"
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I think we can stop playing the 9-1 in the Big East card. When everything is said and done, we finished 13-6 in the Big East and lost 4 straight.
Buzz was given the keys to a ferrari and only managed to not crash it for the first 3/4 of the season. Last year we were a miracle bucket away from going to the sweet 16. We lost no contributors, and will somehow go into the tournament with the same, if not worse seeding.
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TC never got this much out of these kids.
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Yeah, those three tournament appearances and three 20+ wins in a row. With unexperienced freshmen in 05-06 we knocked off one of the best teams ever in the history of college basketball when we beat UConn at the BC.
I bet if Buzz Williams was driving a Ferrari you would think he's an amazing race car driver too...
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I cannot explain how upset I was when Buzz was announced as the new head coach last year after having so many impressive options. He has proven over the last few games that the sub .500 mark he posted in his one other year as a head coach was not a fluke.
Buzz never calls timeouts when the other team is on a roll. What kind of coach lets his team get rolled on a 12-0 run without calling a timeout? And free throws? Seriously Buzz? Who doesn't practice free throws? And then flaunts it to the media! You've got to be kidding me. Even junior high girls coaches know to practice free throws (and call timeouts for that matter)
Our defense has gotten progressively worse throughout the year and our offensive sets are horrendous. Apparently all those numbers he looks at haven't made enough impact on him. We give up so many open looks to any team that knows how to pass and our help defense just doesn't happen.
As if Buzz's decision not to foul in the final seconds at Lousiville wasn't bad enough, today was just the icing on the cake. His game management is pathetic and his tough-guy mentality is a joke. Apparently, even the announcers today were upset with him for not calling a timeout to set up a play for a chance to win the game.
That being said, he's got to go. Let's find a real coach.
Yeah.....good idea.....it is Buzz's fault DJ got injured and inherited a roster with five high major players with little height and had to deal with the inevitable fallout of recruits wanting out of their committments when a coach leaves and also a player leaving the team the day before Labor Day......Your post is the idiotic post of the day....
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Are you guys for real? You don't think losing your best defensive player had anything to do with the losses?
Also I'm sick of the Tribune's anti-basketball bias. Take a note from MUTV's book and provide unbiased coverage. It's amazing how a big MU win ends up on the second to last page while a loss to USF isn't only the main front page headline, it is above the Marquette Tribune title.
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If that were to happen, which it won't, who knows how many recruits would back out of their commitment. We would be screwed next year regardless of the coach.
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I suppose it is Buzz's fault that DJ got hurt, Mbakwe transferred, ..........
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I suppose it is Buzz's fault that DJ got hurt, Mbakwe transferred, ..........
It's Buzz's fault he inherited a team with no real size too...
Oh yeah, and Buzz's fault that the economy keeps declining
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Buzz stole the cookie from the cookie jar
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Buzz bombed Pearl Harbor.
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I'm sick of everyone talking about how this season ended when we lost Dom's defense - "our best defensive player".
1. Did DJ win BE defensive player of the year? No. Jerel is our best defender. Period.
2. Everyone blames AJ Price going off on Acker guarding him and not DJ. Newflash, Jerel was guarding him.
3. Who was guarding Scottie Reynolds when he went bonkers? DJ
I miss DJ more than everyone, but you take away Acker's dumb turnover today and he has played more than admirably. The coaching mistakes far FAR outweigh the step down from DJ to Acker.
Fact is, with a better coach, we win today and at worst split between UCONN and Lousville. That makes us a top 10 team.
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Yes!! I love it!!
I have my worries about Buzz as I've been saying through the whole year, being defense and recruiting elite....but it's great to see the irrational springing out after we lose DJ..
Give Buzz some time, we lost to pretty good teams after DJ was lost, we were over achieving before that time.... I have a feeling there will be one or two of these a week next year.
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Buzz Williams wrote the "stimulus bill"
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Where were you when we were 9-1 in the Big East?
No kidding... but this board might have to listen to these rants all year next season. For some reason, some MU fans thought we would be Final Four favorites if Crean were here... or that our size wouldn't be a disadvantage against bigger teams... or that any "BIG TIME" coach would win a championship this year.
I am pretty confident in Buzz. (1) Two of the three players that could play this year that he brought in got hurt and the one that didn't, Butler, turned out to be a productive player. So Buzz has some eye for talent and can teach because Butler has been improving all season long. (2) He can recruit. I will be the first to say that Buzz is a goofy looking guy but he can convince players to get on board so that is all I care about as far as looks go. (3) Something I appreciated about Crean was he got his players to give 100% every play. As far as that goes, Buzz has picked up where Crean left off. (4) He knows strategy pretty well. We walked into almost every game with major matchup issues and Buzz gets a game plan together to get us in the game and a position to win.
We will have to wait and see if Buzz can produce a winning program but if you expected anything more than what we got this season, you have to reevaluate your expectations. This season has been amazing.
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How can you guys not put some of the blame on his shoulders. This was our best recruiting class in the past 30 years and were going to be out of the top 20 next week. Ridiculous.
We can talk forever and every about how great these seniors were, and they were, but their senior season is being hurt by Buzz. What are we giong to get, one tournament win?
About Buzz's recruiting. I'm not going to say he isn't above par because he obvioulsy landed a good class, but lets be honest, 4 open starting spots in the big best sells itself.
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How can you guys not put some of the blame on his shoulders. This was our best recruiting class in the past 30 years and were going to be out of the top 20 next week. Ridiculous.
We can talk forever and every about how great these seniors were, and they were, but their senior season is being hurt by Buzz. What are we giong to get, one tournament win?
About Buzz's recruiting. I'm not going to say he isn't above par because he obvioulsy landed a good class, but lets be honest, 4 open starting spots in the big best sells itself.
We were 12-3 in the Big East before DJ went down....I'm all for fair criticisms of Buzz but trashing on him because we've been losing without DJ and he had no bench isn't fair.
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How can you guys not put some of the blame on his shoulders. This was our best recruiting class in the past 30 years and were going to be out of the top 20 next week. Ridiculous.
We can talk forever and every about how great these seniors were, and they were, but their senior season is being hurt by Buzz. What are we giong to get, one tournament win?
About Buzz's recruiting. I'm not going to say he isn't above par because he obvioulsy landed a good class, but lets be honest, 4 open starting spots in the big best sells itself.
Tell that to DePaul...
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I apologize for having expectations this season. You know who else thought we were final four contenders for much of the year, ESPN analysts like Bob Knight. They must have been crazy too.
Fact of the matter is, there are not a whole lot of teams with 3 better players than Wes, Lazar, and Jerel. That is 3 NBA players going into the tournament with a 6 seed. You can feed me whatever line you want about how I am too hard on Buzz, just please do me a favor and try and rationalize that statement for me.
3 future NBA players, outside of top 20, 6/7 seed in the NCAA tournament. You are happy with this?
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How can you guys not put some of the blame on his shoulders. This was our best recruiting class in the past 30 years and were going to be out of the top 20 next week. Ridiculous.
We can talk forever and every about how great these seniors were, and they were, but their senior season is being hurt by Buzz. What are we giong to get, one tournament win?
About Buzz's recruiting. I'm not going to say he isn't above par because he obvioulsy landed a good class, but lets be honest, 4 open starting spots in the big best sells itself.
and tell that to Notre Dame...
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Really? Comparing Marquette to DePaul. You sir, are a joke.
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I apologize for having expectations this season. You know who else thought we were final four contenders for much of the year, ESPN analysts like Bob Knight. They must have been crazy too.
Fact of the matter is, there are not a whole lot of teams with 3 better players than Wes, Lazar, and Jerel. That is 3 NBA players going into the tournament with a 6 seed. You can feed me whatever line you want about how I am too hard on Buzz, just please do me a favor and try and rationalize that statement for me.
3 future NBA players, outside of top 20, 6/7 seed in the NCAA tournament. You are happy with this?
And no team has a worse pg-C combo than us.....stew on that for a minute.
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Ok fine. If you want to say I was wrong in saying Dom is the best defender so be it.
We lost our second best defender and starter and previously had two guys comming off the bench. How can you blame Buzz when we are playing with six guys.
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Stew on that? I guess 3 NBA players can't produce in college without 2 other studs to go with them. What is it going to take to get Buzz a top 15 team? 4 NBA players? 5?
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I apologize for having expectations this season. You know who else thought we were final four contenders for much of the year, ESPN analysts like Bob Knight. They must have been crazy too.
Fact of the matter is, there are not a whole lot of teams with 3 better players than Wes, Lazar, and Jerel. That is 3 NBA players going into the tournament with a 6 seed. You can feed me whatever line you want about how I am too hard on Buzz, just please do me a favor and try and rationalize that statement for me.
3 future NBA players, outside of top 20, 6/7 seed in the NCAA tournament. You are happy with this?
There is a big real reason this game is called a team sport. Its important to have good players but there is more to it... especially when you lose your starting point guard.
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While we are at it, let's fire Jim Boeheim too. He used all his TO's with about two minutes to go and then his team gets called for a five second call. He is only a HOF coach, but us message board coaches know all. In fact, the only guy we faced all year who actually knew how to use his time outs got arrested for it.
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Really? Comparing Marquette to DePaul. You sir, are a joke.
Its about the Big East selling itself. No comparison between Marquette and DePaul.
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We have borderline DI players at pg and C. If another team can even come close to matching us at Sg, SF, PF positions we are done...and most top BE teams can.
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Unreal. This is why I typically avoid this board after losses.
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Me too...too many "fans" want to jump off the ledge and blame someone. The problem is...Buzz is not the man to blame. He's done a hell of a job as a rookie head coach (I don't count his stint at UNO). Buzz was and is the right man for this job and I cannot wait until he proves all of you fair weather fans wrong. The reasons we've lost 4 in a row include, losing our starting PG, the gauntlet, and absolutely 0 depth on the bench. To blame Buzz Williams is completely ignorant.
GO BUZZ!!!!
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+1
Me too...too many "fans" want to jump off the ledge and blame someone. The problem is...Buzz is not the man to blame. He's done a hell of a job as a rookie head coach (I don't count his stint at UNO). Buzz was and is the right man for this job and I cannot wait until he proves all of you fair weather fans wrong. The reasons we've lost 4 in a row include, losing our starting PG, the gauntlet, and absolutely 0 depth on the bench. To blame Buzz Williams is completely ignorant.
GO BUZZ!!!!
I'm not in your Rah Rah camp but I agree to now start pissing on Buzz is stupid. He needs to recruit better and show a better defensive prowess but to be calling for his head only after losing DJ is idiotic.
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I blame him because those 6 guys are better than what they have shown. 3 of those 6 guys are something special that we may not seen again for awhile. Look at those senior night stats. If we can't make a run into the tournament with players who have had such an impact, then what is it going to take?
Regardless of this teams shortcomings, (bench, no size). We still had a chance to win EVERY one of the last four games. If we want to get more into specific coaching errors, I can highlight the following.
1. Refusal to hedge on the high ball screen against UCONN. Lack of timeouts.
2. Refusal to foul at the end of the Lousiville and game. (Didnt cost us the game, but dumb nonetheless)
3. HORRIBLE timeout use against Pitt. We were up 9 and then proceeded to get throttled by a 16-0 run without calling one timeout. Not only did the run kill us, but by the time the second half rolled around the legs were not under our players any longer. I know we don't have a bench, but you know what gives them a rest? Lets see, a timeout?
4. Going along with the theme.....13 second left....tie game....heck, let em play BUZZ! Joke. Just a joke.
If these four errors are turned around, we win a minimum of two of these games.
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I blame him because those 6 guys are better than what they have shown. 3 of those 6 guys are something special that we may not seen again for awhile. Look at those senior night stats. If we can't make a run into the tournament with players who have had such an impact, then what is it going to take?
Regardless of this teams shortcomings, (bench, no size). We still had a chance to win EVERY one of the last four games. If we want to get more into specific coaching errors, I can highlight the following.
1. Refusal to hedge on the high ball screen against UCONN. Lack of timeouts.
2. Refusal to foul at the end of the Lousiville and game. (Didnt cost us the game, but dumb nonetheless)
3. HORRIBLE timeout use against Pitt. We were up 9 and then proceeded to get throttled by a 16-0 run without calling one timeout. Not only did the run kill us, but by the time the second half rolled around the legs were not under our players any longer. I know we don't have a bench, but you know what gives them a rest? Lets see, a timeout?
4. Going along with the theme.....13 second left....tie game....heck, let em play BUZZ! Joke. Just a joke.
If these four errors are turned around, we win a minimum of two of these games.
REALLY?? TWO? Louisville game would have needed a miracle to come back. One time out with the Pitt game, was the difference between a win or lose? You do know we were losing by around 20 at the end of the game, right? This Syracuse game wasn't a TO issue. Acker made a really bad Turnover and we had our chances.
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MUball,
Thank god you are not a Georgetown fan. They have four McDonald All Americans (Monroe, Wright, Freeman, Clark), along with Summers, Simms, Vaughan and Sapp, who were four star recruits. Monroe may be in the top five in NBA Draft and Summers in top 20. Look at their season and you think we had it bad?
Yes, game clock management/timeouts was poor, but he hopefully will learn.
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Stew on that? I guess 3 NBA players can't produce in college without 2 other studs to go with them. What is it going to take to get Buzz a top 15 team? 4 NBA players? 5?
You can't win in college without a top PG. It's the most important position in the game, and we're playing in the toughest conference ever with a guy that wouldn't start on some Horizon League teams.
And please, Hayward is not an NBA player by a long shot at this point, Matthews will be lucky to get drafted, and McNeal is a second round pick that will be a bench player.
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Who cares if there aren't many teams with three better players than Jerel, Wes, and Lazar! When you are forced to play out of position, have no depth, and lack any inside presence whatsoever, you aren't going to win often in the Big East. The team overachieved by all accounts this season. Buzz Williams has been terrific. He was dealt a hand that does not necessarily fit his style of play. Based on his recruiting, he is going to try and make a much bigger impact in the post next year. When the most active player down low MU can muster is a JUCO transfer, you know you're in for a long day at the office against the muscle of the Big East. When push came to shove and MU had to play the teams with size, guess what happened? The Eagles got pushed and shoved around like middleweights in a heavyweight fight. The floor general is gone, and the team's offense is mediocre at best. The defensive effort is egregious. The senior day crowd helped spur the team to a terrific comeback in the last 6 minutes today, but once the game went to OT it was OVER. This team was so tired in the extra session, the guys would have fallen asleep at an AC/DC concert. It's time to look forward to next year, because the way the squad is currently assembled, this season is unfortunately about to end without any fanfare. It's upsetting considering what could have been, but taking all things into consideration, Buzz Williams has had an exceptional rookie year as the coach of Marquette. By the way, how is Bennett doing at Washington State this year? Please start listing some available coaches that would have done a better job with this lineup!
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With not replacing Barro, the backup guards not improving, and not having a shooter off the bench like Fitz last year, Buzz is having an equal or better season. Butler is an upgrade of Blackledge, sure.
Put Ooz on this team for his defense, rebounding, and ability to run the floor and Buzz would be a lot better.
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I don't know if anybody is especially happy, but I don't think starting over with a new coach is the answer. You think Calhoun or Pitino could have made Dwight Burke and Mo Acker into elite Big East players? Could Huggins have gotten 15 points and 10 rebounds a game out of Chris Otule? Could Boeheim have cured Cubillan's shot? This team was short and fragile and awful defensively before DJ got hurt. Buzz has a load to learn about game management and I'd still like to know why he treats Hazel like a leper, but this is no time to pin this all on him.
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I don't think you can attribute much of the success of this season to Buzz. He walked into a gold mine with this team. Williams didn't turn these guys into the players they are today. As much as I hate to say it, Crean is the reason we won 23 games this season.
Williams' decision making is awful. He seems to think that by ignoring all the basic coaching rules that he will be successful, but it's coming back to bite him now that we have a tougher schedule. He has brought absolutely nothing to the table this year.
So if I've understood you correctly, it's Crean's fault when we win and Buzz's fault when we lose? :D
Buzz has no hand in wins and Crean's spotty-at-best recruiting outside of the three amigos has no hand in any losses?
Get real.
Sure are a lot of new faces on the boards today...
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Who cares if there aren't many teams with three better players than Jerel, Wes, and Lazar! When you are forced to play out of position, have no depth, and lack any inside presence whatsoever, you aren't going to win often in the Big East. The team overachieved by all accounts this season. Buzz Williams has been terrific. He was dealt a hand that does not necessarily fit his style of play. Based on his recruiting, he is going to try and make a much bigger impact in the post next year. When the most active player down low MU can muster is a JUCO transfer, you know you're in for a long day at the office against the muscle of the Big East. When push came to shove and MU had to play the teams with size, guess what happened? The Eagles got pushed and shoved around like middleweights in a heavyweight fight. The floor general is gone, and the team's offense is mediocre at best. The defensive effort is egregious. The senior day crowd helped spur the team to a terrific comeback in the last 6 minutes today, but once the game went to OT it was OVER. This team was so tired in the extra session, the guys would have fallen asleep at an AC/DC concert. It's time to look forward to next year, because the way the squad is currently assembled, this season is unfortunately about to end without any fanfare. It's upsetting considering what could have been, but taking all things into consideration, Buzz Williams has had an exceptional rookie year as the coach of Marquette. By the way, how is Bennett doing at Washington State this year? Please start listing some available coaches that would have done a better job with this lineup!
+1 - finally an opinion that is spot on
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I am happy to add two members to my "ignore" team. Knee jerk reactionaries with over-inflated egos and absolute lack of vision are great candidates for the all MU Scoop Ignore team.
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buzz has done an admirable job this year, imo.
he is just a bit more than a rookie head coach.
he has showed innovation at times.. and the intuition to tailor his team to his best few players.
that's hurting us now, as we're sans one of the major cogs and the team is trying to find a new identity way late in the season.
but it's also a decision that made a great deal of sense, considering the significant lack of talent after you get beyond the big three and zar.
surprises:
12-6 in the toughest conference in the usa... 23-8 overall is very, very nice.
development of butler
embracement of players toward him, and he toward players, the univ. and the community
a seemingly great class coming in next year
disappointments:
we lose 4 in a row after losing our floor general- no fault of buzz
otule, fulce and mcmorrow all battle injuries, lose time and develop slower than hoped- no fault of buzz
defection of mbakwe- loss of taylor and williams- no fault of buzz
wes, jerel and dj have to graduate and never play at mu again- it had to come to an end.
all in all, I don't know who else on that 'short' list of potential mu coaches could have done much better than buzz this year....
sad that our season ended up this way.
but it's far from a lost year.
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Wow, do you guys jump off cliffs after every hiccup in your life? Stupidest thread ever.
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Sure are a lot of new faces on the boards today...
They always come out of the wood works after a couple losses in a row.
It's always funny to see someone with less than 10 posts under their belt have 3 members or more on their ignored by list!
It's been a great season...and it isn't even over yet! We have the honor and pleasure of watching this team play at least a couple more times before we call it a season! Let's enjoy them while they're still here!
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How can you guys not put some of the blame on his shoulders. This was our best recruiting class in the past 30 years and were going to be out of the top 20 next week. Ridiculous.
We can talk forever and every about how great these seniors were, and they were, but their senior season is being hurt by Buzz. What are we giong to get, one tournament win?
About Buzz's recruiting. I'm not going to say he isn't above par because he obvioulsy landed a good class, but lets be honest, 4 open starting spots in the big best sells itself.
And one of the 4 in the best recruiting class is out with an injury. And that has made a huge difference in this team's performance - our ability to get to the rim, dish out to others to make open shots easier, etc etc. etc are far more limited without DJ. We need to all take a step back and cool down. Losing 4 in a row is something none of us like. Period. This team was flying high and performing better than it ever has. We did NOT get all the key players from lastyear back this year. As often as Ooze got pounded on these boards, he did a pretty good job for us on the real boards on the court - and we miss his presence this year becasue we have no other bog man to fill his shoes.
3 out of the last 4 losses were to top 6 teams in the country. And we were in two of them down the the wire. Without our starting point guard of the best class in 30 years. Today, we should have won. And maybe we think Buzz should have called a time out with 17 weconds left to set up a play. Or maybe he discussed the play already - what do we know. If we were so smart we'd be coaching the team.
Buzz is fine - he will learn from mistakes, miscalculations, and different rotations. But all in all, we had a great year under him with excellent players that he inherited who performed better than they ever have before he coached them.
So buzz off Buzz - he's a keeper.
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It's not buzz's fault. DJ was so much of an on the court presence. He would give us 10-12 points a game and be a leader. Thats what the team lacked in its losses. with DJ out we needed a leader. We had to take on the four toughest teams in the conference w/o our top LEADER. These games aren't the fault of Buzz. Seriously people need to cut the "i blame buzz williams" garbage
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Last year we were a miracle bucket away from going to the sweet 16. We lost no contributors, and will somehow go into the tournament with the same, if not worse seeding.
It's funny how a 6 foot shot by a 7 foot tall lottery pick without a defender going up to challenge him has evolved into being a miracle shot. I think that Fitzgerald and especially Barro were significant contributers last year, not to mention Dominic James, who was a MAJOR contributor.
As for Buzz, for me it's hard to figure how good a coach he is. He had four very talented, creative players on offense and he was smart enough to go with a motion offense and let them do what they do best. That same philosophy would probably be a lot less effective next year. I'll have to see what he does there.
Our defense this year has been terrible, despite obvious improvement in that area from James. The two headed combo of Barro/Burke has been replaced by Burke/Butler, so our worse defense is most likely caused by less effective interior personnel. Frankly, I don't know what he could have done given his roster.
Given what he was for a roster, I think Buzz has done a fine job, because he coached them the best way they could be successful. But his main players were very experienced and just needed to be trusted to do their own thing. We'll see what he does next year with a team that will need a strong coach.
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Whether it was intentional or not, I liked when Wesley was giving his senior speech how he thanked Buzz for letting him sprout/come out of his shell...something to that extent.
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Fire Buzz Williams and we lose at least half of our incoming class. That is the quickess way to make Marquette as bad as DePaul. Frankly you are an ***** for wanting to fire a coach after he losses his star point guard with a broken foot and has to play four ranked teams in a row.
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Whether it was intentional or not, I liked when Wesley was giving his senior speech how he thanked Buzz for letting him sprout/come out of his shell...something to that extent.
I think "unleash me" was the exact terminology. ;D Awesome, Wes.
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For better or worse...had MU hired a veteran coach that understands how to use timeouts correctly, we wouldn't be having this debate right now. And THAT was the one criticism of hiring Buzz in the first place. It was the fact that MU gambled when it shouldn't have had too. We are now reaping that.
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I think "unleash me" was the exact terminology. ;D Awesome, Wes.
Yeah - I videoed it on my Flip and he said,
"I want to thank Buzz for finally unleashing me!"
And the crowd went wild!!
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For all the replies about James being out but still hanging in there against some top teams- you're only proving my point about Buzz. Our guys stepped up and filled his spot pretty well. Acker has done a great job and so has Cubillan, both despite limited playing time this season. And as a result of their games we hung in there and had a chance to win a few of these past games. BUT because of some poor decision making by Buzz we didn't get as good of a chance as we should have.
Against Louisville we were down 4! with 15 (or so) seconds to play. Why not foul?! I don't understand the gameplan there. Yeah, it's a small chance to pull that out on the road in Freedom Hall, but at least give them a chance to try.
And today was awful. We were tied with 8 seconds left and there's no TO to set up a play? Terrible terrible decision.
Buzz may be a great assistant coach, but when he's calling the shots, any team he's in charge of is never going to reach their full potential.
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3 future NBA players, outside of top 20, 6/7 seed in the NCAA tournament. You are happy with this?
I just want to give everyone warning, that especially if we lose Wednesday, but even if we go 1-1 in the BET, to not whine, complain, or have a cow if our seed is even worse than a 6 or 7. You can cite the good record or a couple key wins, but a last 12 of 5-7, a last 10 of 3-7, a 5 game losing streak, and falling flat after losing a key player will not be rewarded at all by the committee. So there shouldn't be one gripe about an 8,9 or even a 10 seed when we're playing like an NIT team. We probably should have a better seed, but we don't deserve anything.
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For all the replies about James being out but still hanging in there against some top teams- you're only proving my point about Buzz. Our guys stepped up and filled his spot pretty well. Acker has done a great job and so has Cubillan, both despite limited playing time this season. And as a result of their games we hung in there and had a chance to win a few of these past games. BUT because of some poor decision making by Buzz we didn't get as good of a chance as we should have.
Against Louisville we were down 4! with 15 (or so) seconds to play. Why not foul?! I don't understand the gameplan there. Yeah, it's a small chance to pull that out on the road in Freedom Hall, but at least give them a chance to try.
And today was awful. We were tied with 8 seconds left and there's no TO to set up a play? Terrible terrible decision.
Buzz may be a great assistant coach, but when he's calling the shots, any team he's in charge of is never going to reach their full potential.
Yeah, the game plan was the problem. ::)
Clearly it wasn't the fact that Acker gave up a career high to Andre McGee and Buzz had no one else to put on him.
It also couldn't have been the fact that Jerel went 3 for 19 from field and 2 for 5 from the FT line.
The Louisville game was lost because of what the players were incapable of doing, not because of game planning.
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For better or worse...had MU hired a veteran coach that understands how to use timeouts correctly, we wouldn't be having this debate right now. And THAT was the one criticism of hiring Buzz in the first place. It was the fact that MU gambled when it shouldn't have had too. We are now reaping that.
thank you! very very well said. Obviously the thread title was a little exaggerated, but I think you're right to say it was a gamble that didn't pay off.
But most gambles have some type of risk reward payoff. I just don't see that with Buzz.
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I'm sick of everyone talking about how this season ended when we lost Dom's defense - "our best defensive player".
1. Did DJ win BE defensive player of the year? No. Jerel is our best defender. Period.
2. Everyone blames AJ Price going off on Acker guarding him and not DJ. Newflash, Jerel was guarding him.
3. Who was guarding Scottie Reynolds when he went bonkers? DJ
I miss DJ more than everyone, but you take away Acker's dumb turnover today and he has played more than admirably. The coaching mistakes far FAR outweigh the step down from DJ to Acker.
Fact is, with a better coach, we win today and at worst split between UCONN and Lousville. That makes us a top 10 team.
Newsflash: YOU, are an idiot. I doesn't matter who's coaching this team right now. We just played 4 top 25 teams in a row with 4/5 of our starters. Do you really think this team is BE Championship material? Final Four material? We can do without bandwagon/sky is falling fans like you.
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Yeah, the game plan was the problem. ::)
Clearly it wasn't the fact that Acker gave up a career high to Andre McGee and Buzz had no one else to put on him.
It also couldn't have been the fact that Jerel went 3 for 19 from field and 2 for 5 from the FT line.
The Louisville game was lost because of what the players were incapable of doing, not because of game planning.
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Yeah, that's obviously why we lost. But we were still in it! Why don't you undersatdn that? Despite all the things you just mentioned we were still only down 4 with 30 seconds to go! No matter how many points mcgee had and how cold Jerel was, we still had a shot at the end, but Buzz didn't do much to help that chance
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Newsflash: YOU, are an idiot. I doesn't matter who's coaching this team right now. We just played 4 top 25 teams in a row with 4/5 of our starters. Do you really think this team is BE Championship material? Final Four material? We can do without bandwagon/sky is falling fans like you.
More like it hasn't mattered who has coached the team up until right now. If we had more experience on our sideline the end of our season could have been much different. The good coaches are the ones who make things happen against good teams. Anyone is going to beat Depaul, but when you can come up with defensive adjustments at halftime to slow down AJ Price or come up with an offensive play when you're tied with 8 seconds left... That's how GOOD coaches win games
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Yeah, the game plan was the problem. ::)
Clearly it wasn't the fact that Acker gave up a career high to Andre McGee and Buzz had no one else to put on him.
It also couldn't have been the fact that Jerel went 3 for 19 from field and 2 for 5 from the FT line.
The Louisville game was lost because of what the players were incapable of doing, not because of game planning.
Yeah, that's obviously why we lost. But we were still in it! Why don't you undersatdn that? Despite all the things you just mentioned we were still only down 4 with 30 seconds to go! No matter how many points mcgee had and how cold Jerel was, we still had a shot at the end, but Buzz didn't do much to help that chance
Tell us how coaching would have won the game. Tell us, of the available coaches last offseason, which coach could've won that game for us?
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Yeah, the game plan was the problem. ::)
Clearly it wasn't the fact that Acker gave up a career high to Andre McGee and Buzz had no one else to put on him.
It also couldn't have been the fact that Jerel went 3 for 19 from field and 2 for 5 from the FT line.
The Louisville game was lost because of what the players were incapable of doing, not because of game planning.
Yeah, that's obviously why we lost. But we were still in it! Why don't you undersatdn that? Despite all the things you just mentioned we were still only down 4 with 30 seconds to go! No matter how many points mcgee had and how cold Jerel was, we still had a shot at the end, but Buzz didn't do much to help that chance
You're incorrect on the time. Wesley threw up that three with 14 seconds left in the game. By the time MU was in a position to foul, there were 10 seconds left. Even if you assume Louisville misses, MU would have to get the rebound(unlikely), race down court and hit a shot(even more unlikely) and then foul again. There simply wasn't enough time at that point to pull it off. Plus given how the team was playing, extending the game likely would have made it worse. With the way Jerel was shooting, another possession simply gives him a chance to throw up another terrible shot, and Louisville would have just won by a larger margin.
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Tell us how coaching would have won the game. Tell us, of the available coaches last offseason, which coach could've won that game for us?
I think that every single high school coach in the country would have had the common sense to call a time out and draw up a play for a chance to win the game.
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More like it hasn't mattered who has coached the team up until right now. If we had more experience on our sideline the end of our season could have been much different. The good coaches are the ones who make things happen against good teams. Anyone is going to beat Depaul, but when you can come up with defensive adjustments at halftime to slow down AJ Price or come up with an offensive play when you're tied with 8 seconds left... That's how GOOD coaches win games
Tell us exactly what you would have done to slow down AJ Price?
James is gone, so he's not an option. Price was tearing McNeal a new a-hole so clearly he's not working. What possible player do you have to put on him? Cubi, Wes, Butler, and Lazar are too slow. Acker is too short. You can't go zone, because they'll abuse the zone with Thabeet. You can't go box and 1 because whichever 1 you pick can't stay with him, and they have too many talented players for the box to handle. You can't double team him, because their other players are just too good. There's literally no solution out there other than hoping that he misses, because no one that was available to play was good enough to stop him.
You're severely overestimating the talent on this team when you assume that there actually was something different for Buzz to do. No coach, not Buzz, not Crean, not anyone could have stopped AJ Price that night with the available talent that Marquette had.
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You're incorrect on the time. Wesley threw up that three with 14 seconds left in the game. By the time MU was in a position to foul, there were 10 seconds left. Even if you assume Louisville misses, MU would have to get the rebound(unlikely), race down court and hit a shot(even more unlikely) and then foul again. There simply wasn't enough time at that point to pull it off. Plus given how the team was playing, extending the game likely would have made it worse. With the way Jerel was shooting, another possession simply gives him a chance to throw up another terrible shot, and Louisville would have just won by a larger margin.
My bad on the time, but my whole point is that our guys didn't even get the chance to TRY. 4 points isn't all that bad. Teams foul down by much more than 4 in the last ten seconds. And do they usually lose? Yes. But sometimes you get a miracle. Buzz sure talks about praying a lot to not even hope for that miracle...
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For better or worse...had MU hired a veteran coach that understands how to use timeouts correctly, we wouldn't be having this debate right now. And THAT was the one criticism of hiring Buzz in the first place. It was the fact that MU gambled when it shouldn't have had too. We are now reaping that.
The thing is, it probably didn't pay off this year which is unfortunate considering how special this group of players is. That being said, we will have to judge this hire a few years down the road. That's when we will really know. I think Buzz's staff is quite good and if he can have multiple good recruiting classes, we will be ok.
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Price was on fire that game, that's obvious. But to say that no coach in the country could slow him down is pretty bold. If Buzz plays Cubillan for 2 minutes to let Jerel rest, it could have helped. If we try a double team and let Stanley Robinson take some jumpers, that could help. If you try a box and 1 and switch your 1 every couple of minutes that could work.
The point is that the coach of the #10 team in the country should be able to come up with something! You know that Pitino or Boeheim or Williams or Coach K would have a game plan to alter Price's game for the second half. No one just concedes and assumes that an opponent is unstoppable.
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For the fun of it I went to the Wash. St. board. Tony Bennett was criticized for: 1) calling a timeout at the end of the game and then running a crappy play that didn't put the ball in the right player's hands; 2) Not developing the freshman players on the team; 3) Not developing the 4 seniors on the team; 4) Not playing a bigger/smaller lineup; 5) Not recruiting better (amongst other things). Is he not a "hot" young coach anymore?
MU finished about where they should have. If you think we had the talent to finish ahead of the top three you are delusional. That's speaking with my head and not my alumni heart.
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Price was on fire that game, that's obvious. But to say that no coach in the country could slow him down is pretty bold. If Buzz plays Cubillan for 2 minutes to let Jerel rest, it could have helped. If we try a double team and let Stanley Robinson take some jumpers, that could help. If you try a box and 1 and switch your 1 every couple of minutes that could work.
The point is that the coach of the #10 team in the country should be able to come up with something! You know that Pitino or Boeheim or Williams or Coach K would have a game plan to alter Price's game for the second half. No one just concedes and assumes that an opponent is unstoppable.
Have you seen Cubillan play this year? What makes you think that in 2 minutes of game time he wouldn't do even more damage and an allow Price to go off even more. He's shown absolutely nothing on the court that would make you think he could do it. By sticking with McNeal, Buzz was in fact making the smart decision. If your former Big East Defensive POY can't stop him, then you don't have anyone who can.
Further, you show a complete lack of knowledge if you think those legendary coaches would switch their defenses to stop a player. Boeheim plays a 2-3 zone. That's it. Every possession of every game since the late 1980s, Syracuse has played a 2-3. If someone goes off, then they go off. He sticks with it because he knows that's what works most of the time. Coach K plays a straight man to man and has for nearly all his coaching career. You must have missed the game two years ago when DJ tore up Duke and Coach K refused to do any switching on him. If a player goes off then so be it, Coach K just tries to outscore them. Pitino is known for being completely stubborn in his defensive approach. Even when his press isn't working, when his team is getting killed by it, he still continues to do it game after game possession after possession.
If you look at the great coaches throughout the years, you'll find that most of them don't go around adjusting their defense. They play one way because that's their best way to win most of the games they play. They don't go around changing it for one player or one team because that's not how they've built their teams.
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I don't think you can attribute much of the success of this season to Buzz. He walked into a gold mine with this team. Williams didn't turn these guys into the players they are today. As much as I hate to say it, Crean is the reason we won 23 games this season.
Williams' decision making is awful. He seems to think that by ignoring all the basic coaching rules that he will be successful, but it's coming back to bite him now that we have a tougher schedule. He has brought absolutely nothing to the table this year.
Do you know ANYTHING about the game of basketball?
Are you going to tell me that Dominic James, a three-time All-Big East basketball player who is a potential NBA draft pick is NOT a one point difference in a tie game at the end of regulation against Syracuse?
Your post offends my intelligence and, I would hope, your own.
If you knew ANYTHING about basketball, you would know that this team rotates better on D than any of Tom Crean's teams, takes better shots, and over all plays better as a team.
Buzz Williams has done an unbelievable job of maximizing these kids' talent. They were/are a Top-10 team without a low post presence at all. They have Hayward (a 2) playing the 4 and Burke (a 3/4, maybe) playing the 5. In this respect they are/were at a disadvantage in every game against every opponent with a traditional lineup.
If you don't think that Dominic James is a 1-point value over Maurice Acker (a decent NCAA hoops player but not a 3-time Big East player with a shot at the NBA) then I don't know what to tell you.
I would hope that you were one of the people at the game who stayed for the seniors' speeches. They deserved your respect. If you did, you would have heard Wesley Mathews thank Buzz Williams for letting him play his game (my words, not his, I forget his exact terminology). The message was clear that Crean restricted his development and ability for the first three years.
The same is true for this whole team. I don't give an f**k, who recruited them, all I know is the 4 seniors and Hayward together could play with anyone in the country. As the last three years showed that was not the case with Tom Crean as head coach.
Without DJ this team is a good, but not spectacular NCAA team. But to say that Buzz Williams should be fired shows profound ignorance and you should be ashamed of your self.
I wish I wrote this whole post in CAPS and could tape it to your front door.
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MU went 23-8 overall and 12-6 in the toughest conference in the country. And by all accounts, Buzz has an excellent recruiting class coming in. Not sure that's what gets a coach fired. When we were 9-0 in the BE and ranked #8 nationally, we were probably a little overrated. If we had played UConn, Louisville, Pitt and Syracuse earlier in the season with James, chances are we would have ended up with the same record. The 0-4 finish makes it seem worse than it is. Of course, w/o James, we will be lucky to win one more game this season.
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For one, writing in all caps doesn't make your opinion count for any more than it would regularly. Get over that.
And I think basketball is that game where that put that orange ball in the peach basket right?
If you read all my posts on this thread you would realize that talking about James is irrelevant. I have said all along that we were in games and Buzz' decision making hurt our chances at winning those games.
We were tied today even though we had Maurice Acker (and his unfortunate turnover). Buzz chose not to call a timeout to set up a play to give us a chance to win the game. James is easily a +1 over Acker, but we didn't even need that today. All we needed was a set play to get an open shot in the last 8 seconds.
And Burke is not a 3! Are you kidding me? And Lazar a 2? Who cares if Lazar played out of position? He has done it for the past two years. He played well in the post last year and continued to progress this year. That's all there is to it.
Dwight Burke as a wing player... And you think I don't understand basketball
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I think that every single high school coach in the country would have had the common sense to call a time out and draw up a play for a chance to win the game.
That might be true. I don't blame them. Not a lot of 16-18 year old kids have enough skill and mental fortitude to pull off a play on their own in a high pressure situation like that. On the other hand you have 21/22 year old men with years of experience playing Big East basketball. I trust any of our Big 4 to get it done in that situation. By not calling the timeout, it prevented Boheim from doing any defensive coaching. It was just our guys against their guys. And I'm taking our guys in that situation every time. Do it again tomorrow, and I still don't want Buzz to take a timeout. Not with Jerel McNeal (or DJ) on the court. Most times, they'll get it done.
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this guy's a pud
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Seriously, fire Buzz? Regardless of who's playing for the guy, 23-8 overall and 12-6 in the toughest goddamn conference in the country, doesn't exactly suck, especially with 3-4 of those losses in your star player's absence. Even with the sky falling over at Georgetown, we're nowhere near calling for JT3's head. Keep some perspective, fellas.
That said, very much looking forward to seeing your BET run end Wednesday when you're wrung out by Hoyas or however that cheer goes.
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summer's eve, brings back freshness every time. idiots. you hypocrites need to stfu and eventually accept that the players are the ones that are responsible for what occurs on the court...buzz is unconventional and doesnt call timeouts, accept it. the players know it, we know it. it is what it is. could he have called one? sure. but he didnt. they played like garbage. this team is what is is...theyre undersized, they jack threes, jerel is a ballhog and doesnt pass it off on a fastbreak, jimmy has zero self confidence in his shot, nor does Mo Ack. we are small, somehow tonite we rebounded the ball bc that team is a selfish nucleus of prcks. we lost, thats it, there were bad calls...it wasnt buzz's fault. everyone else is bigger, and theyre deeper, there isnt much more to be said.
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summer's eve, brings back freshness every time. idiots. you hypocrites need to stfu and eventually accept that the players are the ones that are responsible for what occurs on the court...buzz is unconventional and doesnt call timeouts, accept it. the players know it, we know it. it is what it is. could he have called one? sure. but he didnt. they played like garbage. this team is what is is...theyre undersized, they jack threes, jerel is a ballhog and doesnt pass it off on a fastbreak, jimmy has zero self confidence in his shot, nor does Mo Ack. we are small, somehow tonite we rebounded the ball bc that team is a selfish nucleus of prcks. we lost, thats it, there were bad calls...it wasnt buzz's fault. everyone else is bigger, and theyre deeper, there isnt much more to be said.
What's hypocritical about saying, while things were going good, that Buzz is an overrated coach who will ultimately fail... and then, once he indeed fails, pointing out how right we were all along?
Want to know what's hypocritical? Hypocritical is yammering on all season about how amazing Buzz is, how he's got these guys playing at a level that Tom Crean never could have dreamed, and then, when the team comes back down to earth--to the very level that Tom Crean had them at--you continue to defend Buzz and lash out at anyone who would dare speak the truth.
THAT, my friend, is hypocritical.
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That is one of the worth posts I have ever seen. A total moron making the suggestion. I have been a season ticket holder for 45 years and our current coach is excellent. The jury will be out on his recruiting ability. You have to have the players. He has done great with that little team. He is a much better game coach than his predecessor. Losing the quarterback of the team is a very tough challenge. Please go away from this site with your idiotic ramblings.
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That is one of the worth posts I have ever seen. A total moron making the suggestion. I have been a season ticket holder for 45 years and our current coach is excellent. The jury will be out on his recruiting ability. You have to have the players. He has done great with that little team. He is a much better game coach than his predecessor. Losing the quarterback of the team is a very tough challenge. Please go away from this site with your idiotic ramblings.
No, Buzz was being carried by a team that is incredibly talented; they won in spite of his awful coaching, not because of it. This is a great team with an awful coach; losing James merely exposed Buzz for what he really is.
The idea that he doesn't have the players is laughable. A better coach beats Syracuse easily, even without James. Wake up.
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Yeah, those three tournament appearances and three 20+ wins in a row. With unexperienced freshmen in 05-06 we knocked off one of the best teams ever in the history of college basketball when we beat UConn at the BC.
Let the record reflect "one of the best teams ever in the history of college basketball" lost to an 11 seed in the NCAA tournament.
I'd take your opinions more seriously if you showed any evidence you had a clue of what you're talking about.
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I will rarely call out an individual on the boards, but for anyone to say that because that UConn team lost to George Mason in one of the biggest upsets in tournament history is just plain stupid.
Two lottery picks. Two more first round picks and a second round pick. All on one team! They were essesntially an NBA team playing for UConn. Only two other times in NCAA history has one team produced 4 lottery picks.
Just because that UConn team lost in the elite 8 does not change how talented they were. And that makes our win over them that much more meaningful.
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No, Buzz was being carried by a team that is incredibly talented; they won in spite of his awful coaching, not because of it. This is a great team with an awful coach; losing James merely exposed Buzz for what he really is.
The idea that he doesn't have the players is laughable. A better coach beats Syracuse easily, even without James. Wake up.
Great team? You've got to be kidding.
Name another "great team" that doesn't have a point guard. Name another "great team" that doesn't have even a serviceable big man. Name another "great team" that starts no one over 6'6 and plays a shooting guard at the power forward position.
The notion that this is a great team even with James is what's laughable. They are a severely limited team that is lucky to be where they are given their makeup. To date, they've outperformed last year's team which had more overall talent.
You're overrating the talent on this team incredibly to assume they are a great team.
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A better coach doesn't beat Syracuse..better play by McNeal, Matthews, and Hayward beats Syracuse. Check McNeal's shooting in the last 4 losses. Also he isn't missing because Acker isn't getting him good shots like James did. He is missing a lot of wide open shots, shots he hit earlier in the year. His play has dropped off.
Give Buzz time. Some of the people on this board must be related to the guys sitting behind us all year. At the beginning of the year they were bashing Jimmy Butler and complaining about what a pathetic player he was and he should never play. Funny thing they are the same guys now heard cheering him and talking about what a great player he is.
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Great team? You've got to be kidding.
Name another "great team" that doesn't have a point guard. Name another "great team" that doesn't have even a serviceable big man. Name another "great team" that starts no one over 6'6 and plays a shooting guard at the power forward position.
The notion that this is a great team even with James is what's laughable. They are a severely limited team that is lucky to be where they are given their makeup. To date, they've outperformed last year's team which had more overall talent.
You're overrating the talent on this team incredibly to assume they are a great team.
Any team with four NBA-caliber players on its roster is (at the least) a very good team. We can quibble over the semantics, but an average coach should be able to get 12 conference wins out of this squad.
Buzz isn't the worst coach in the world, but we can do much better.
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He should be fired because he doesn't know how to use an undershirt.
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Any team with four NBA-caliber players on its roster is (at the least) a very good team. We can quibble over the semantics, but an average coach should be able to get 12 conference wins out of this squad.
Hayward is not an NBA caliber player. Too small for the PF position, to slow for any other position. James is not an NBA caliber player unless he improves his shooting a lot. Matthews is a borderline 2nd round pick that is going to require work to stick in the NBA. Again you're severely overrating the talent on this team.
Further, if you consider Matthews an NBA player, you have to give credit for that to Buzz. He was no where near an NBA caliber player under Crean, it would have been a joke to consider him one. As Wesley said, Buzz unleashed him and turned him into someone who is under consideration now. He would not have been that without him.
A less talented team than last years won more games than last years team, and did with less depth and in a tougher conference.
Buzz isn't the worst coach in the world, but we can do much better.
Name one that wanted the job.
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I will rarely call out an individual on the boards, but for anyone to say that because that UConn team lost to George Mason in one of the biggest upsets in tournament history is just plain stupid.
Two lottery picks. Two more first round picks and a second round pick. All on one team! They were essesntially an NBA team playing for UConn. Only two other times in NCAA history has one team produced 4 lottery picks.
Just because that UConn team lost in the elite 8 does not change how talented they were. And that makes our win over them that much more meaningful.
Sigh ... so having several players drafted makes them among the greatest teams of all time? One of the greatest teams of all time is one that didn't even make the Final Four?
Wow ... what's that say about the teams that actually won something? How many greatest of all time can there be?
Sorry, but there have been plenty of teams with multiple first round picks AND that won something of significance. That UConn team wasn't one of them.
2007 Florida Gators had three lottery picks and another first-round pick. And they won a pair of championships. One of the greatest of all time.
2007 Ohio State ... two lottery picks (#1 and #4 overall), another first-round pick and an NCAA runner up. One of the greatest of all time.
2005 UNC ... four lottery picks and a championship. One of the greatest of all time.
2004 UConn ... four lottery picks, six first-round selections and a championship. One of the greatest of all time.
2004 Duke ... three lottery picks and a Final Four. One of the greatest of all time.
2003 Kansas ... two lottery picks, three first-round picks and went to the Finals. One of the greatest of all time.
2001 Duke ... three lottery picks (plus a future all-star taken later) and a championship. One of the greatest of all time.
1999 Duke ... three lottery picks (plus #14 overall) and a runner-up in the tournament. One of the greatest of all time.
There's a list of eight teams in just the last decade that deserve "greatest of all time" status ahead of that UConn team in 2005. They had NBA players and actually won something.
If the history of college basketball began in 1999, I don't think your case would have any merit. But considering the fact college basketball has been around a little longer than that, your position is utterly laughable. I could go on and on with teams like the early 90s Duke and UNLV rosters, mid 80s UNCs, etc.
Oh, and since you make so much of that team's NBA talent, it should be pointed out that only one of those guys averages more than 4.5 ppg in the league. They're not exactly setting the league on fire.
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Let the record reflect "one of the best teams ever in the history of college basketball" lost to an 11 seed in the NCAA tournament.
I'd take your opinions more seriously if you showed any evidence you had a clue of what you're talking about.
Let the record further reflect that UCONN lost to a Final Four team that year and had 7 players selected in the NBA draft. They were killer talented, but that doesn't mean they couldn't fall on any day.....which is what happened when they lost to a Final Four team (who also happened to be an 11 seed).
That being said, I didn't think UCONN was one of the greatest "teams" of all time. They had incredible talent, but that doesn't make them a great team. Nor, do I think Buzz Williams should be fired.
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pakuni, stop googling for one second. you are missing the point. UCONN was not the greatest team ever, but was one of the talented. I think the NBA scouts who drafted their entire team hold more merit than your opinion.
the biggest joke is people like yourself claiming that this year has met expectations, and possibly exceeded them. what have we done? buzz has taken our best recruiting class ever and landed them a 6 seed in the NCAA tournament. watching the amigos grow up, we all waited for this senior year...dom getting props his freshman year, jerel getting big east defensive player of the year as a soph...everyone was waiting to see what they could do as seniors. turns out, their freshman season was more exciting and more fufilling than this (up to this point). this isn't to say something great can't happen, but I would trade freshman year with a big win over UCONN and a killerhome win over ND over a 5th place big east finish with one great win (nova). I would understand if this team underachieved because the players never fully materialized, but we are graduating some of the greatest this school has seen in a long time. add to that, we have an nba caliber junior (stop arguing. look at draft projections). all in all, even with dom getting hurt, this team has fell way below expectations, while at the same time playing to their potential. who is left to blame? I won't say fire buzz, but be prepared to get out of future players only what they were god given, and nothing more. his recruiting will keep us competitive, but his coaching will keep us from ever being great.
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Name one that wanted the job.
Bruce Weber. I'm sure there were more, but we'll never know since MU didn't even interview anyone else...
Anyway, let's say for a moment that Buzz WAS the best coach we could get. That fact alone doesn't actually make him a good coach. He's not, so let's quit pretending like he is.
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pakuni, stop googling for one second. you are missing the point. UCONN was not the greatest team ever, but was one of the talented. I think the NBA scouts who drafted their entire team hold more merit than your opinion.
the biggest joke is people like yourself claiming that this year has met expectations, and possibly exceeded them. what have we done? buzz has taken our best recruiting class ever and landed them a 6 seed in the NCAA tournament. watching the amigos grow up, we all waited for this senior year...dom getting props his freshman year, jerel getting big east defensive player of the year as a soph...everyone was waiting to see what they could do as seniors. turns out, their freshman season was more exciting and more fufilling than this (up to this point). this isn't to say something great can't happen, but I would trade freshman year with a big win over UCONN and a killerhome win over ND over a 5th place big east finish with one great win (nova). I would understand if this team underachieved because the players never fully materialized, but we are graduating some of the greatest this school has seen in a long time. add to that, we have an nba caliber junior (stop arguing. look at draft projections). all in all, even with dom getting hurt, this team has fell way below expectations, while at the same time playing to their potential. who is left to blame? I won't say fire buzz, but be prepared to get out of future players only what they were god given, and nothing more. his recruiting will keep us competitive, but his coaching will keep us from ever being great.
Our best recruiting class ever?
You need to read up on your Marquette history. This class was not even close.
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Bruce Weber. I'm sure there were more, but we'll never know since MU didn't even interview anyone else...
Not true. MU did contact other candidates both directly and through back channels.
Anyway, let's say for a moment that Buzz WAS the best coach we could get. That fact alone doesn't actually make him a good coach. He's not, so let's quit pretending like he is.
Yeah because bad coaches turn Wesley Matthews into a 2nd team all Big East player when he hadn't shown he could do that in his previous three years. And bad coaches turn Jimmy Butler, a guy who hadn't so much as played small forward in his life into a competent 4/5 off the bench.
Hate the search all that you want, that doesn't make Buzz a bad coach.
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Our best recruiting class ever?
You need to read up on your Marquette history. This class was not even close.
I wouldn't say best ever, but not sure I would say "not even close". I guess it all comes down to the definitions used.
If it's based on wins in the NCAA tournament, then absolutely it will "not even be close".
If it's based on school records, wins, etc....then I'd argue it's right up there.
Tough to compare eras, of course. The NCAAs some would argue were easier to navigate back in the 70's. Others will argue that freshman didn't play with some of those classes of the 1960's so they were penalized.
Hard to say.
But certainly this is one of the better classes in MU history and I'd be hard pressed to find 4 classes that were better (thus making them top 5 in MU history). Th #1 and #3 all-time scorers in school history. Multiple all Big East players in arguably the toughest conference in America. #2 all-time assist leader. Four NCAA appearances, average of 23 wins per year, etc.
I guess I would rank them as the best class in the last 25 years, though I could talk myself into including a few others along for the discussion as well.
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Our best recruiting class ever?
You need to read up on your Marquette history. This class was not even close.
I think the stats on senior night said it all. This class produced the leading scorer, #1 all time in steals, #1 all time in FG made, #1 all time in free throws made, #2 all time in assists, #3 all time scorer...
This class is far and away the best class in Marquette history. They rewrote the record books! Even if they didn't come in as the most highly touted, they easily became the best.
How's that for history?
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Yeah because bad coaches turn Wesley Matthews into a 2nd team all Big East player when he hadn't shown he could do that in his previous three years. And bad coaches turn Jimmy Butler, a guy who hadn't so much as played small forward in his life into a competent 4/5 off the bench.
::)
You do realize the term "Three Amigos" was in use before this year, right? Wes Matthews emerged this year, it's true, but he hardly came from nowhere. News flash: good players frequently have breakout seasons during their senior year.
Now if Mo Acker turns into an all-Big East next year, then you might be on to something...
As for Jimmy Butler, he was highly touted coming into the season. He's met expectations, which is great, but not real meaningful as it relates to this discussion.
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what about jimmy butlers play shows you that came from one year of coaching? he has shown an uncanny ability to snag offensive rebounds, and 90 percent of his play and contribution are built off that. did buzz teach him how to get 10 offensive boards againt syracuse? no.
your comment about matthews does more to prove my point. buzzs coaching styler is laissez faire, and he relies on his players being, in fact, very very good. maybe crean restricted matthews too much, but he produced the same result with one less year of playing experience for mcneal, james, wes, and lazar. u can't say that matthews would not have had this season with another coach, there is no way to know that. by all accounts, matthews came back much stronger and with a better stroke. it doesn't take a genius to let him shoot. take buzzs coaching style and put it on a team without the caliber of players mu has and u have a riot on this board.
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what about jimmy butlers play shows you that came from one year of coaching? he has shown an uncanny ability to snag offensive rebounds, and 90 percent of his play and contribution are built off that. did buzz teach him how to get 10 offensive boards againt syracuse? no.
your comment about matthews does more to prove my point. buzzs coaching styler is laissez faire, and he relies on his players being, in fact, very very good. maybe crean restricted matthews too much, but he produced the same result with one less year of playing experience for mcneal, james, wes, and lazar. u can't say that matthews would not have had this season with another coach, there is no way to know that. by all accounts, matthews came back much stronger and with a better stroke. it doesn't take a genius to let him shoot. take buzzs coaching style and put it on a team without the caliber of players mu has and u have a riot on this board.
+100000000000000000000
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I think the stats on senior night said it all. This class produced the leading scorer, #1 all time in steals, #1 all time in FG made, #1 all time in free throws made, #2 all time in assists, #3 all time scorer...
This class is far and away the best class in Marquette history. They rewrote the record books! Even if they didn't come in as the most highly touted, they easily became the best.
How's that for history?
Much of that comes from the fact that these guys got to play four years, while MU's other great players didn't, and many of MU's great players were good enough to leave early for the NBA. These guys were good, but not that good.
You really think McNeal is the best scorer in MU history just because he's #1 on the list?
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what about jimmy butlers play shows you that came from one year of coaching? he has shown an uncanny ability to snag offensive rebounds, and 90 percent of his play and contribution are built off that. did buzz teach him how to get 10 offensive boards againt syracuse? no.
your comment about matthews does more to prove my point. buzzs coaching styler is laissez faire, and he relies on his players being, in fact, very very good. maybe crean restricted matthews too much, but he produced the same result with one less year of playing experience for mcneal, james, wes, and lazar. u can't say that matthews would not have had this season with another coach, there is no way to know that. by all accounts, matthews came back much stronger and with a better stroke. it doesn't take a genius to let him shoot. take buzzs coaching style and put it on a team without the caliber of players mu has and u have a riot on this board.
I saw Butler play while he was at Tyler JUCO. He was a scorer and a ballhandler, that's it. He was not a good rebounder and he wasn't a good defender. The player he is now is not the guy he was when he came to Marquette last summer, and that's directly related to the coaching he's received.
Let's see, given what we know about how Matthews played the last three years, we can very easily say that what he's done this year would not have occurred under other coaches. Further, if you think Matthews stroke is better, then you haven't been paying attention to him the last four years. It's the same stroke he's had all along, he's just taking better shots now. It's the same stroke he had as a freshman when he actually shot a better percentage from beyond the arc than he did this year. It's the same stroke he had at Madison Memorial as well.
So Buzz realizes the caliber of players he has on his team and how much free reign they should get. Interesting that you say that is bad coaching when Crean did not realize that at all in their 3 years here.
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Much of that comes from the fact that these guys got to play four years, while MU's other great players didn't. You really think McNeal is the best scorer in MU history just because he's #1 on the list?
That's a great question, impossible to know because it gets back into comparing eras, comparing competition, etc. The teams of the 1970's were awesome but didn't play a meat grinder conference schedule like MU does today. Of course, on the flip side, we were so good back then that many of those players didn't start for four years and have the opportunities that DJ, JM, WM had in terms of minutes, shots, etc.
Good question, not sure what the answer is because there are many factors that would need to be considered.
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This year's seniors are an excellent class. Unfortunately they were follwed by 3 mediocre to poor classes. In the 70's MU never needed to recruit 4 starters in one class because we almost always got one super stud who was head and shoulders above any of the 3 amigos. (Meminger, Chones, Lucas, Tatum, Lee etc) When you bat .250 you can be good but not great. (unless you have NBA lottery talent)
Don't know where you would rate the Bo Ellis "class" as he was the only original freshman to contribute much, but an NCAA Championship, an NCAA runnerup, an Elite 8 and a 1st round loss dwarfs these seniors accomplishments.
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"Take his coaching style and put it on a team without the caliber of players MU has and you have a riot on this board"
Can't wait for 365 days from now.
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Much of that comes from the fact that these guys got to play four years, while MU's other great players didn't, and many of MU's great players were good enough to leave early for the NBA. These guys were good, but not that good.
You really think McNeal is the best scorer in MU history just because he's #1 on the list?
You nailed it.
Not to take anything away from this group's accomplishments, but the reason they lead in so many cumulative categories is because they've played so many games. And the primary reason they've played so many games - along with the fact the season is longer these days - is that the cupard was bare when they arrived on campus and they had to play so many games.
It was an excellent class, but not the best in school history. Maybe on the back end of the top five, at best.
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Lenny---You are right on. Any recruiting class from 68-77 had better overall team careers. This class is great in many ways to me, but not as a great basketball class. Senior night used to have the following stated:
1. "This group was ranked in the top 10 57 weeks during their careers."
2. "Second only to UCLA for wins during their four year careers."
3. "95-17 career record."
These seniors have great individual stats and no NCAA resume to be considered a real great class. Bo Ellis by himself is better player than these three combined if you judge on wins, which I happen to believe is most important thing. As you stated Bo was in two championship games and was robbed in '76 of maybe making a third by selection committee.
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pakuni, stop googling for one second. you are missing the point. UCONN was not the greatest team ever, but was one of the talented. I think the NBA scouts who drafted their entire team hold more merit than your opinion.
Yeah, I hate it when people go "googling" to find facts to support an argument rather than talking out of their rear.
Fact: Several other teams just in the past decade - let alone the history of college basketball - have had as many or more players drafted in the first round as the UConn team of 2005.
Fact: Every one of those teams won a championship or at least made the Final Four, a feat that UConn team never accomplished.
What's there to argue? Nobody is saying that team wasn't talent (nice straw man, though). But to claim it was one of the greatest of all time? On the basis of what?
It's delusional. They weren't even the best team that year, much less one of the best all time.
the biggest joke is people like yourself claiming that this year has met expectations, and possibly exceeded them. what have we done?
Actually, I never said that.
However, up to the point DJ went down it would be an accurate statement. It's certainly not a stretch to say MU is sitting at 25-6, 14-4 right now with DJ healthy, with a top four seed in both the conference tourney and NCAA tourney coming. It's assinine to say this team underachieved. They were doing better than expected when DJ went down and finished, despite his injury, about where they were projected by most of the fans here, as well as in the Big East pre-season poll.
Where are all these draft projections that have Lazar as an NBA player? He's a great college player, but way too muich of a tweener at the next level. Close your eyes and imagine him being asked to guard any three in the NBA.
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Close your eyes and imagine him being asked to guard any three in the NBA.
When did they start playing defense in the NBA? ?-(
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When did they start playing defense in the NBA? ?-(
The best defense anywhere on the planet is played in the NBA. Not in all 82 games or by every team, but anyone who has ever watched teams like the Celtics and San Antonio in the playoffs knows this.
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I saw Butler play while he was at Tyler JUCO. He was a scorer and a ballhandler, that's it. He was not a good rebounder and he wasn't a good defender. The player he is now is not the guy he was when he came to Marquette last summer, and that's directly related to the coaching he's received.
I'm curious, BMA. What kind of player was Fulce at Tyler? Would you have thought he was better than Butler? Did you think he'd be productive at MU right away?
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These seniors have great individual stats and no NCAA resume to be considered a real great class. Bo Ellis by himself is better player than these three combined if you judge on wins, which I happen to believe is most important thing. As you stated Bo was in two championship games and was robbed in '76 of maybe making a third by selection committee.
I disagree a little bit. Bo Ellis had great guards when he played, very balanced teams. It is not the fault of these three guards that they were never given an average, let alone good, big man to play with. As good as he was, I don't think Bo makes any Final Fours if the PG was only as good a PG as Burke is a C. I don't think Butch Lee makes a final four if he doesn't have the great froncourt.
If you gave these guys good interior players and they never won anything, then I would agree with you. I would take Ellis' career over any of these guys because of the team success you mentioned, but he got a lot more help from his teammates.
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I'm curious, BMA. What kind of player was Fulce at Tyler? Would you have thought he was better than Butler? Did you think he'd be productive at MU right away?
Yes, I would have thought he was better than Butler and I think anyone who watched them play last year would have thought the same thing. Not that Butler looked bad, but Fulce just looked very good. I thought he'd be the impact player in this class.
Offensively he was very good. He had great leaping ability, which allowed him to play in the post against guys that were bigger than him and still be effective. Nice turnaround J, jumphook and other post moves that would allow him to be a 4. He also had a nice stroke and spent more time on the perimeter than Butler...and he hit a higher percentage out there as well.
What stood out was his ability to get rebounds, not just because he's long armed, but because he jumped like he was on a pogo stick. Maybe not the highest jumper in the game, but he could come down and go right back up very quickly. He seemed to have a knack for knowing which way the ball would bounce, and he was able to grab it even if the other guy had better position.
It seemed like he was the most ready of the recruits coming in, at least offensively. Defensively he didn't look great but he wasn't terrible either. Tyler spent most of their time in a zone that made it hard to tell how good they were.
I thought he had the opportunity to be a big contributor this year, and I think the comments by Rosiak watching the first practices show that as well. But with the injury, who knows.
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Jerel used to be, James was our best defender all year.
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I apologize for having expectations this season. You know who else thought we were final four contenders for much of the year, ESPN analysts like Bob Knight. They must have been crazy too.
love the move of linking your reputation for sanity with Bob Knight's
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While in general I don't have a problem with people calling out those on the boards who make idiotic statements like "Fire Buzz Williams," why bring up something 4 years old?
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While in general I don't have a problem with people calling out those on the boards who make idiotic statements like "Fire Buzz Williams," why bring up something 4 years old?
Because Marquette Madness if 186 days 10 hours 4 minutes and 28 seconds away.
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When we were 9-1, I was saying Buzz is an awful coach and should be fired. Obviously, I caught a lot of flack for that then.
While I wish I had been proven wrong for the sake of my alma mater, at least I get to say I told you so.
heh. It is kind of funny to revisit some of these posts during the "down" time of MU basketball. I especially like this guy's reply.
Of course none of these guys except for Skianth16 seem to be active anymore, typical.
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While in general I don't have a problem with people calling out those on the boards who make idiotic statements like "Fire Buzz Williams," why bring up something 4 years old?
because I'm a nostalgic guy on this 5th anniversary of Buzz's hiring
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heh. It is kind of funny to revisit some of these posts during the "down" time of MU basketball. I especially like this guy's reply.
Of course none of these guys except for Skianth16 seem to be active anymore, typical.
Isn't Tribby the account for the Marquette Tribune? If so that's pretty despicable...
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i miss BMA...
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Hayward is not an NBA caliber player. Too small for the PF position, to slow for any other position. James is not an NBA caliber player unless he improves his shooting a lot. Matthews is a borderline 2nd round pick that is going to require work to stick in the NBA. Again you're severely overrating the talent on this team.
Further, if you consider Matthews an NBA player, you have to give credit for that to Buzz. He was no where near an NBA caliber player under Crean, it would have been a joke to consider him one. As Wesley said, Buzz unleashed him and turned him into someone who is under consideration now. He would not have been that without him.
Prophetic
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while fun to laugh at some of those posts, you can also look at some of the criticism and concerns, and see where buzz has really improved as a coach. we are lucky to have someone who seems to have an arrogance about him in the right areas (chip on the shoulder) and be willing to learn/listen in areas where he needs improvement.
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i miss BMA...
+725
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heh. It is kind of funny to revisit some of these posts during the "down" time of MU basketball. I especially like this guy's reply.
Of course none of these guys except for Skianth16 seem to be active anymore, typical.
Great posters driven off by intolerant Scoopers. LOL.
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while fun to laugh at some of those posts, you can also look at some of the criticism and concerns, and see where buzz has really improved as a coach. we are lucky to have someone who seems to have an arrogance about him in the right areas (chip on the shoulder) and be willing to learn/listen in areas where he needs improvement.
yep
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Great posters driven off by intolerant Scoopers. LOL.
We need more heavy handed moderators :p
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Weird....I'm told here consistently that I predicted Buzz wouldn't succeed (untrue, never said it), that I wanted him fired (untrue, never said, never believed it, etc) and here we have a thread about Buzz being fired from a few years ago. I must have missed all the posts in here where I said those things I'm accused of here routinely.
LOL.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=13376.msg119923#msg119923
And yes, BMA was great. Too bad Ners drove him away.
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is Buzz working the summer festival circuit?
(http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=124004&stc=1&d=1405365646)