MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: DJAMES1 on January 13, 2009, 08:18:03 PM
-
http://www.espnmilwaukee.com/audio/
A nice 20 minute interview with Rosiak about Crean, The Big 3's legacy, etc.
-
http://www.espnmilwaukee.com/audio/
A nice 20 minute interview with Rosiak about Crean, The Big 3's legacy, etc.
Great interview. Hard to disagree with anything that Rosiak said.
-
Good stuff from Rosiak.
I hate the D list though but sadly it's one of the better shows on Milwaukee sports radio. Luckily I can get Chicago sports radio 670 The Score up here in Milwaukee.
-
Rosiak basically called Crean a dick. I had heard things about him but this just confirms the stories I heard. Surprising, he must be two faced and change his tune around his "big time friends". Don't know if my respect for him as a person and how he treats other humans is as high.
-
Surprise, surprise. Some of us have known that for a long time.
-
Rosiak basically called Crean a dick. I had heard things about him but this just confirms the stories I heard. Surprising, he must be two faced and change his tune around his "big time friends". Don't know if my respect for him as a person and how he treats other humans is as high.
Care to elaborate on what he said about Crean?
-
A successful 'dick' who graduated all of his players (except DWade), never had a whiff of scandal, promoted the hell out of the team and university (and himself in the process) shepherded us into the BEast. Nine years and 190 wins. Couldn't recruit bigs at MU. (my one complaint and all of his other coaching deficiencies stem from this) And some people hated him because of a personality conflict. Bleepin absurd.
-
A successful 'dick' who graduated all of his players (except DWade), never had a whiff of scandal, promoted the hell out of the team and university (and himself in the process) shepherded us into the BEast. Nine years and 190 wins. Couldn't recruit bigs at MU. (my one complaint and all of his other coaching deficiencies stem from this) And some people hated him because of a personality conflict. Bleepin absurd.
Truth.
I'm often considered a dick... well, because I am. But being a dick doesn't preclude me from being really good at what I do.
-
Some like the chicken, some like the feathers. I don't care for his personality or the manner in which he went about doing things. I think he's classless, arrogant, and overpaid. From a coaching viewpoint, he's not nearly as good as he'd like people to think he is, both as a tactian and a recruiter. First priority for Tommy was and will always be Tommy. Didn't fool everyone, though.
-
Care to elaborate on what he said about Crean?
The statements about Crean were really more about comparing the two styles of Buzz and Crean. Not really a total knock, gave an honest answer about both coaches stating what they brought to the program (both positives and negatives).
On Crean:
He said Crean was more involved with the PR of the program and would call or text Rosiak the next day about every story/blog that he printed. Said he had an arrogance about him -- that he was the Top Dog at MU and he let everyone know it. Used the PR that he generated about Marquette to make Marquette successful and parlay that into another gig.
On Buzz:
Said Buzz was more about the players from day one and they appreciate it. You could basically roll the ball out on the court and let this team play and anyone would have the same success. BUT in the same regard he said Buzz is very underrated as a coach and he's done a good job by playing to this team's strengths. It will take him about 3 years to really judge him if he's successful or not.
-
Surprise, surprise. Some of us have known that for a long time.
I think all of us have known that, but as Todd and others on the radio program also said....he had wild success as well.
That part of the equation never seems to register with you guys. It's only the part that he was an a-hole.
Give me an a-hole who will take us to the Final Four every decade every day of the week, unless you can find a nice guy that can do it...then I'm sold.
-
A successful 'dick' who graduated all of his players (except DWade), never had a whiff of scandal, promoted the hell out of the team and university (and himself in the process) shepherded us into the BEast. Nine years and 190 wins. Couldn't recruit bigs at MU. (my one complaint and all of his other coaching deficiencies stem from this) And some people hated him because of a personality conflict. Bleepin absurd.
Tower hits a long, deep drive into McCovey Cove. Well done
-
Chicos, that's where we differ. Most didn't think he was an ass until he bolted. Crean could have accomplished the same things without the character flaws. But, that's not part of his personality or make-up.
-
I had always heard stories but never cared because he's a coach not the pope. I don't know about wild success either outside of the Final Four year and Crean hitting the jackpot with Wade we won one NCAA game. He still proved to be a good coach though.
As far as being a dick, that's fine but if you need to be a dick to be self satisfied than you have a pretty big personality flaw and that's where I would lose respect for Crean.
-
Chicos, that's where we differ. Most didn't think he was an ass until he bolted. Crean could have accomplished the same things without the character flaws. But, that's not part of his personality or make-up.
Well, I think if you had the option of having a "dick" who won, vs. a "Nice guy" who lost, then the decision is easy, take the winner.
I'm happy with MU's current coach and his general attitude/style.
HOWEVER, if MU turns into DePaul, I won't care how much of a "good guy" Buzz is... I'll want him gone.
Winning a lot of games + Graduating players + Arrogant Coach = a lot of fun and pride in MU (see: Crean, Tom)
Not winning as much + nice guy coach = Not as much fun, less school pride, and less $$ coming into the school (see: Raymonds, Hank)
How do you do the math 4ever?
-
Give me an a-hole who will take us to the Final Four every decade every day of the week, unless you can find a nice guy that can do it...then I'm sold.
I think that's the problem... Crean took MU to one Final Four - not one every decade. One final four does not "allow" him to be the a-hole that he was. If he won 8 or 9 championships in a decade like John Wooden, then by all means, he could be the biggest pric% in the world if he wanted to.
-
What is being lost on the Crean apologists is that you do not have to be an A-hole. Those that love Tommy NAismith apparently think you have to be a dick to win. Fortunately that is not the case. Buzz proves nice guys can win too and the college landscape is littered with them. Chicos throws names out there and attempts to make it seem like only jackasses win. You dont have to to win and Crean was an F'ing dick.
The interview was kind of funny and telling, you could tell Rosiak was trying not to say "listen the guy was a freaking jag bag, which would have been easier but he kept the interviewer at bay pretty well." They did say Buzz is a "whole other kettle of fish" and kind of left it at that.
Good guys do win and him winning does not excuse him for being an absolute prick. It seems alot of people were so enamored with Crean that they could never have imagined the rumors of his behavior. This is a result of the fact that some people feel MU could never be successful with anyone other than Crean. Seems the Cream Marketing Machine was very successful in that aspect.
Rosiak did also say the players were very happy the program was now about them and not the former coach.
-
Chicos, that's where we differ. Most didn't think he was an ass until he bolted. Crean could have accomplished the same things without the character flaws. But, that's not part of his personality or make-up.
Well, I think plenty of us said he was a difficult as hell to work for, was a hard ass, tough to cozy up to and like....those asertions were around for a long time. I'm sure some didn't think that way, but the point still remains....the guy had the 2nd best run in MU history and that is all thrown out the window by some people here just because they didn't like him.
Honestly, I don't get it. If the guy cheated, I'd get it. If the guy didn't graduate players, I'd get it. If the guy said his contract wasn't worth the paper it was printed on and wouldn't wipe his nose with it (aka K.O.), I'd get it.
I prefer to look at it from the perspective that he took us places we haven't been in decades and for all we know, maybe never again. I hope not, but we don't know. He brought top flight players to MU that are representing MU nightly in the NBA, he didn't cheat, our kids graduated, we were in HUGE games for many years, fans came out in droves....we were relevant again.
So he was dick in the process.....I don't give a crap, I like what he did for MU hoops and MU....make it relevant again, especially out here 2000 miles away and not in the cocoon that is Milwaukee or the Great Lakes region.
-
+1 chico, or as the folks of Team America would say:
Crean's a dick! A reckless, arrogant, stupid dick! And the Crean attackers!.. are hairy wet cats. And The Big East!.. is an A-hole.
hairy wet cats don't like dicks!.. because hairy wet cats get f'ed by dicks. But dicks also f A-holes. A-holes who just want to $h!t on everything.
hairy wet cats may think they can deal with A-holes their way, but the only thing that can f an A-hole... is a dick... with some balls.
The problem with dicks is that sometimes they f too much, or f when it isn't appropriate, and it takes a kitten to show 'em that.
But sometimes hairy wet cats get so full of crap that they become A-holes themselves. Because hairy wet cats are only an inch and a half away from A-holes.
I don't know much in this crazy, crazy world, but I do know that if we didn't let that dick f that A-hole we all would have had our dicks and hairy wet cats all coverd in $h!t.
-
classy
-
Well, I think plenty of us said he was a difficult as hell to work for, was a hard ass, tough to cozy up to and like....those asertions were around for a long time. I'm sure some didn't think that way, but the point still remains....the guy had the 2nd best run in MU history and that is all thrown out the window by some people here just because they didn't like him.
Honestly, I don't get it. If the guy cheated, I'd get it. If the guy didn't graduate players, I'd get it. If the guy said his contract wasn't worth the paper it was printed on and wouldn't wipe his nose with it (aka K.O.), I'd get it.
I prefer to look at it from the perspective that he took us places we haven't been in decades and for all we know, maybe never again. I hope not, but we don't know. He brought top flight players to MU that are representing MU nightly in the NBA, he didn't cheat, our kids graduated, we were in HUGE games for many years, fans came out in droves....we were relevant again.
So he was dick in the process.....I don't give a crap, I like what he did for MU hoops and MU....make it relevant again, especially out here 2000 miles away and not in the cocoon that is Milwaukee or the Great Lakes region.
totally agree. Most successful coach at MU since Al. People are just pissed he left. I was at MU when Al was coach. I was on the Athletic Board at the time. Al was just as arrogant and had a much bigger ego.
Crean did a great job at MU. He was a terrific with the press and drumming up support for the program. I could give a rats ass that he was whatever. Coaches are paid to win.
-
What is being lost on the Crean apologists is that you do not have to be an A-hole.
The irony of this comment is likely lost on its maker.
Here's my view. Crean being a dick is forgivable, becuase apparently, he was only a dick in private, to people who apparently deserved it, plus paired it with signficant contributions to MU, such as getting to the final four, graduating his players, keeping us free from NCAA violations, keeping MU in the news media, etc. etc. etc.
You being a dick is not forgivable, because you haven't made anywhere near the contribution to MU that Crean has, plus you're a dick to everyone, right out in public.
BTW, you mentioned the "rumors" of what Crean has done to earn being called a dick. Can you provide specifics? Are you ever going to put up or shut up?
-
I have rarely thrown my hat into this ring, but I finally decided I'd speak up. I grew up the child of an alum with season tickets. Attended 90% of the home games from '71 or '72 until I became a student in '78 and of course attended all of the home games while enrolled. graduated and moved out of state in '83. So, I experienced the AL era - the greatest time to be a Warrior fan - ever. Hank was there when I was - lots of talent (thanks to Al) but disappointing results. When I moved away, the program was practically invisible on the national scene for years. Yes, O'Neill's teams got them a little exposure, but living in the Southeast, not much chance of me seeing too many games in the heart of ACC/SEC hoops territory.
Enter Tom Crean (and DWade of course) and suddenly, my Alma Mater is relevent again. My friends and co-workers actually knew what I was talking about when I talked MU basketball. Of course I was oblivious to Crean's off court persona with no local media dissection of his every move, and no blogs to follow (I just didn't do it back then). So, did I care? No. we were a top 25 program again. That's the bottom line - that and at least for MU, a clean program and graduating players. He did those things as well. So, I have no problem with Crean and what he did at Marquette. All I have to say, is "Thank you, Tom Crean, and good luck." I'm not happy you left the way you did, but we'll be just fine,.
-
You being a dick is not forgivable, because you haven't made anywhere near the contribution to MU that Crean has, plus you're a dick to everyone, right out in public.
(http://www.criticallayouts.com/images/rsgallery/original/too-funny-monkey-ag1.gif)
-
I live in Michigan. After graduating in 88, when I would tell someone that I went to Marquette, they would invariably say "way up there?"....meaning Marquette, Michigan in the upper peninsula. These days, when I say I went to Marquette, most people, especially men, say "Nice basketball team. Man, the Big East is tough."
Think of TC as a CEO. He took a decent company and took it up the ladder. His management style irked some people, because he was a type A personality who sometimes treated his underlings poorly, but he made the company more successful. Then, he took a job at a company that (in his estimation, flawed in my opinion) had more upside. His manner of leaving offended many people, but there was an able replacement waiting in the wings. Did the CEO make the right decision to jump? Is the new CEO going to be able to sustain the success. Take the emotion out of it, and it is a fairly common story.
If Buzz can continue to win 20+ a year, continue to graduate all of his players, continue to keep the MU brand on the upswing, all while being a nice guy, GREAT, we got the better of the deal. If Buzz is a nice guy, and we win 17-18 a year, go 8-10 or 7-11 every year and are consistently in the NIT, the same guys are going to want to run him out of town.
-
I doubt that there are any D-1 coaches who don;t have some issues. I am happy with what Crean did at MU. Could he have been even more successful ehre with recruiting and developing bigs, etc. Maybe. But he put us back on the national map and that was good for MU and good for MU basketball. The way he left is defenseless.
I hope Buzz can build on this and maintain continuity with our success so we have no more gaps. I think he can, and maybe even do better.
-
Here's my two cents on Crean. The certainly left the program in much better shape than he found it. BUT, the program had started to regress. I don't know whether Crean was a dick, but I never thought he was a particularly good coach. He was more of a salesman. (The same thing could be said about Al too.) That was enough to improve recruiting and bring in the fans.
Crean improved the program, but the Final Four was really a fluke type of thing for Crean, and in hindsight the team may have actually underachieved. We had BY FAR the best player in college in Wade. People didn't appreciate it at the time, but we all knew. The only way we ever got Wade is that people have always underestimated him at every step of the way. People may forget but we came very close to losing to Holy Cross in the opening round, and had very tight games against Missouri and Pitt. Beating Kentucky was phenomenal, and Wade's performace was one of the greatest tournament games of the decade. Against Kansas, we were outcoached by a Kansas team that was no more talented than us. Kansas was more experienced, but they ended up losing to a Syracuse team with less experience. Since then, we have underachieved every single March. He never recruited a single genuine NBA player after Diener. Fewer players really improved from year-to-year under Crean's tutelage (Wade, Diener, Novak and Jerel), than transferred out (Blankston, Mason) or stagnated (Wes, Dominic, Merritt, Townsend).
So, I think Crean had brought the program to where it is, a steady tournament team, but no real threat to go further. I also think people were beginning to realize this, and his star was fading a bit. I think he realized this, and knew something like Indiana wasn't going to come around again.
-
Didn't know Todd was a shoe collector!
Doesn't anyone know where I can listen to the archive of Buzz's Monday shows? I missed this past Monday's episode.
-
Here's my two cents on Crean. The certainly left the program in much better shape than he found it. BUT, the program had started to regress. I don't know whether Crean was a dick, but I never thought he was a particularly good coach. He was more of a salesman. (The same thing could be said about Al too.) That was enough to improve recruiting and bring in the fans.
Crean improved the program, but the Final Four was really a fluke type of thing for Crean, and in hindsight the team may have actually underachieved. We had BY FAR the best player in college in Wade. People didn't appreciate it at the time, but we all knew. The only way we ever got Wade is that people have always underestimated him at every step of the way. People may forget but we came very close to losing to Holy Cross in the opening round, and had very tight games against Missouri and Pitt. Beating Kentucky was phenomenal, and Wade's performace was one of the greatest tournament games of the decade. Against Kansas, we were outcoached by a Kansas team that was no more talented than us. Kansas was more experienced, but they ended up losing to a Syracuse team with less experience. Since then, we have underachieved every single March. He never recruited a single genuine NBA player after Diener. Fewer players really improved from year-to-year under Crean's tutelage (Wade, Diener, Novak and Jerel), than transferred out (Blankston, Mason) or stagnated (Wes, Dominic, Merritt, Townsend).
So, I think Crean had brought the program to where it is, a steady tournament team, but no real threat to go further. I also think people were beginning to realize this, and his star was fading a bit. I think he realized this, and knew something like Indiana wasn't going to come around again.
good way to look at things and certainly the view of some. in my opinion definitely a pessimistic way. how about this- instead of saying wade was always underestimated why dont you give credit to crean for bringing in the best player to ever step foot on campus? how about crean turning Diener, who i admit can shoot the lights out, but is slow as crap and undersized into an NBA player? or how about novak- he can shoot also but so weak for his sized and never really an NBA player. Please do not insult the Final Four run because he got the most out of all his players when he needed it that run- oh and ps that game against Kentucky will go down as one of the top 3 games ever played by MU
About Crean being a dick you know what? honestly, people knew he was out to promote the team and himself, but noone gives a crap if he is hated by some that personally know him. That may say something about his personality, but everyone outside those 'close' that he was a dick to can give a rats ass. He won and made MU successful again.
Many people close to Michael Jordan say he was a dick. A horrible father, husband and person- That may be true, but to millions in the chicago area he was a legend and a God. While crean is no MJ, you get my point
-
I have rarely thrown my hat into this ring, but I finally decided I'd speak up. I grew up the child of an alum with season tickets. Attended 90% of the home games from '71 or '72 until I became a student in '78 and of course attended all of the home games while enrolled. graduated and moved out of state in '83. So, I experienced the AL era - the greatest time to be a Warrior fan - ever. Hank was there when I was - lots of talent (thanks to Al) but disappointing results. When I moved away, the program was practically invisible on the national scene for years. Yes, O'Neill's teams got them a little exposure, but living in the Southeast, not much chance of me seeing too many games in the heart of ACC/SEC hoops territory.
Enter Tom Crean (and DWade of course) and suddenly, my Alma Mater is relevent again. My friends and co-workers actually knew what I was talking about when I talked MU basketball. Of course I was oblivious to Crean's off court persona with no local media dissection of his every move, and no blogs to follow (I just didn't do it back then). So, did I care? No. we were a top 25 program again. That's the bottom line - that and at least for MU, a clean program and graduating players. He did those things as well. So, I have no problem with Crean and what he did at Marquette. All I have to say, is "Thank you, Tom Crean, and good luck." I'm not happy you left the way you did, but we'll be just fine,.
Well said! I, too, live away from God's Country (that being the tiny 'nation' between 9th and 20th and Clybourn and State). Crean - like him or hate him - made the program relevant again.
I always told my friends who asked about every rumor (Illinois, Missouri, etc.), that I would understand if TC left for some programs...but not those. The short list of programs were the likes of UNC, Duke, KU, Kentucky, UCLA....and yes, IU. He did not leave gracefully, but faced with the same decision, most men or women would have made the same decision.
I BELIEVE that MU will come out ahead in the deal. TC got MU back into the national consciousness, but I had doubts about how high he could take us (final four notwithstanding). I am impressed with Buzz based upon 15-2, recruiting, public persona, player reaction, recruiting, personal interaction, etc, etc, etc.
-
I think all of us have known that, but as Todd and others on the radio program also said....he had wild success as well.
That part of the equation never seems to register with you guys. It's only the part that he was an a-hole.
Give me an a-hole who will take us to the Final Four every decade every day of the week, unless you can find a nice guy that can do it...then I'm sold.
+1. Seriously. I think it is the younger students and alumns that do not remember where this program was in 1999 when Tom Crean took over that "pile on" Tom Crean now that he has left. To me the fact that only 4 years after TC was hired we were in the Final 4 (with a future NBA HOF player) is what matters most. Tom Crean ran a clean program, promoted Marquette brilliantly, and overall was successfull. At the end of the day, that will be his legacy.
If he was arrogant at times, so be it. Sometimes that's what you need to do. I'm not nice in my day job, but that doesn't mean I'm a bad person or not deserving of any success I have. And the same is true for TC.
No one likes how (or why) TC left for Indiana, but let's not let that blind our objectivity. The Jesuits would like us to think more critically than that. Tom Crean gave a lot to Marquette and Marquette greatly benefitted from his tenure as head coach of the team.
-
He never recruited a single genuine NBA player after Diener.
Uh, Steve Novak?
What about DJ, McNeal, Mathews and Hayward? Each of them has at least a chance of playing in the NBA.
Also don't forget Tyshawn Taylor. Had Crean not left he would have been at MU. He is starting as a true freshman at Kansas and looks like an NBA prospect to me.
-
Tower i agree with you. My point all along and for whatever it is worth is you do not have to be a dick along the way. MAny people say "well it's ok be cuase we were winning" ahhh no it's not. I guess some missed the cura personalis class.
And FWIW...I have no problem with Crean leaving..I disliked him and am glad he left...so I am not "bitter he left". I flet Crean was over the last 5+ years holding the program back with questionable coaching and poor recruiting. I am not upset with how he left, it came as no surprise...did i think he would do it with class..of course not that would be out of character. Do i blame Crean for leaving?...of course not IU is a great gig. His actions were abhorrent, his character despicable, if the guy had 30-4 records with elite 8 finishes evry year maybe, just maybe i could overlook it. but 21-12 records and a first round flame out with recruit going nowhere and 2 nits in the last 5 years is absolutely no justification for that sort of behavior. Sorry if people feel it is justified. becuase it does not.
-
Good guys do win and him winning does not excuse him for being an absolute prick. It seems alot of people were so enamored with Crean that they could never have imagined the rumors of his behavior. This is a result of the fact that some people feel MU could never be successful with anyone other than Crean.
I think this is the crux of the issue for you and not for some of us.
While I don't think Crean is an "absolute prick" like you do, I do understand how he comes off as arrogant (he is) and ego-driven (he is) I also know people that have personally worked for him, and they said he was very tough to deal with (he is).
However, the guy graduated the vast, vast majority of players, and he won a LOT of games, and you hear great comments from former players and other coaches (why would they lie?)
Could MU have been successful without Tom Crean? Yes. But, MU's track record wasn't very good before Crean, so you have to admit that Crean was good for the university.
That's it. That's where I leave it.
PS I could go on and on about how Crean embraced Al's legacy, and really help take over Al's run, and made a "donation" to the soccer stadium (TBD), etc. But, I know you will say that those were all fake ways for him to get himself on camera... so I don't want to debate those things. That's all just speculation and opinion.
Here's the FACT:
MU is a better place for hiring Tom Crean. You may/can hate him, but it's true.
-
Crean improved the program, but the Final Four was really a fluke type of thing for Crean, and in hindsight the team may have actually underachieved. We had BY FAR the best player in college in Wade.
I don't know if Wade was by far the best college player, Carmelo was a very very talented freshman in that same final four. And even was good enough to win it all.
-
Can someone put together a list of how many of these threads get hijacked into Crean discussions? Because it seems like a whole lot. Or maybe once a thread gets hijacked into "Crean's a dick" territory, we could put a header on there? Just a thought.
-
I know I was part of the problem in this thread but I say the mods get tough with Crean hi jacked threads. Next time 4warriors, Mr.Hayward, Chicos, Stone Cold, etc. mentions Crean they get a 2 week ban.
I'd like to see who fails first.
-
Crean improved the program, but the Final Four was really a fluke type of thing for Crean, and in hindsight the team may have actually underachieved. We had BY FAR the best player in college in Wade.
I think you are so off your rocker on this one.
That MU team had three NBA players on it (including the greatest player in our history; the player who should've ended his career as leading scorer; and the greatest long range shooter in our history). Had a legit post presence. Had a strong bench. Had shooting, passing, defense. All the intangibles of success. It wasn't nearly the fluke that people love to dismiss it as.
Also, Wade wasn't the best college player in that Final Four. Both Carmelo Anthony and TJ Ford were better college players. You are confusing Wade being the best professional of that group with Wade being the best collegian of that group.
-
MU2002alum you sya "However, the guy graduated the vast, vast majority of players, and he won a LOT of games"
My point all along is you dont have to be an a-hole to do that and it does not make it all right.
-
MU2002alum you sya "However, the guy graduated the vast, vast majority of players, and he won a LOT of games"
My point all along is you dont have to be an a-hole to do that and it does not make it all right.
Agreed, you don't have to be an a-hole.
I don't think the guy was a total douche (like some), but I can see how people were not in love with him.
MY POINT: Facts are facts, and MU basketball was a lot more enjoyable (better product) and beneficial to the school (more $$) after Crean came.
-
02 I think where some of us "haters" get upset is so many people think TC is the only guy who could have elevated the program. IMHO the man who saved MU Hoops was Fr Wild. In many respects when it comes to TC, I don't hate the player as much as I hate the game.
Also, Dimitri points to Travis as example of TC's player development. Anyone who followed Travis's AAU exploits knows he captained a Playground Warriors team that dominated the AAU circuit. He was playing with and excelling against the big boys long before TC got a hold of him. A NBA career out of Travis was not a reach his senior year of HS.
-
Just listened to the interview. That D list guy is terrible. I guess I've been spoiled by Sports Radio (The Score and ESPN) in Chicago (with the exception of Mike Murphy who is a nice guy, but terrible and has an awful radio voice).
-
I don't know if Wade was by far the best college player, Carmelo was a very very talented freshman in that same final four. And even was good enough to win it all.
Dwyane Wade was the best college player I have ever seen with my own two eyes. He was a better all-around player than Carmelo Anthony that year and way better than TJ Ford who won Player of the Year.
-
02 I think where some of us "haters" get upset is so many people think TC is the only guy who could have elevated the program. IMHO the man who saved MU Hoops was Fr Wild. In many respects when it comes to TC, I don't hate the player as much as I hate the game.
I can't help you there.
You can hate Crean because you think he gets too much credit, but there's nothing we can do to change that.
Head coaches are always going to get too much credit and too much blame.
Can you name any of the university presidents and/or AD's at the following schools?:
Villanova
North Carolina
UCLA
PITT
I bet most people can't, but I bet they know the coach that helped "bring the program back" (relative term, but you get the idea).
It's just life. Nothing Tom Crean did or does can change that.
As far as I'm concerned, Fr. Wild deserves credit for hiring/trusting the right people, Cords deserves credit for finding Crean and empowering him, Crean deserves credit for working his ass off and jump starting a relatively dormant program.
Crean is not Jesus, but he did a good job.
-
Also, Dimitri points to Travis as example of TC's player development. Anyone who followed Travis's AAU exploits knows he captained a Playground Warriors team that dominated the AAU circuit. He was playing with and excelling against the big boys long before TC got a hold of him. A NBA career out of Travis was not a reach his senior year of HS.
An NBA career was out of reach for Diener. Diener himself credits TC for making him an NBA player.
-
Have to agree with Damonkey...Saw travis play a number of times probably half a dozen. Playing for the playground warriors and that team was loaded with D! talent...he was by far the best player on the team....
The big "knock" on him was did he has the size strength to play major D1 ball and possibly alot of coaches looked in another direction . But as far as game is concerned there was absolutley no doubts. After the first time I saw him play I was basolutely giddy that Mu was recruiting him and heard the negatives and hoped they continued and that he had to "settle" for MU. Big time baller saw his attitude and moxy and knew size was no issue. Saw him stroke 3's at buzzers to tie games. Saw him stroke FT's to salt games etc. I saw the ice water and toughness we all came to know and knew he was a steal. Oh by the way he was the highest rated play Crean ever signed. To say he did not have a big time future before he ever stepped on the court at MU is to kid oneself.
did he get better at MU...of course but he was a Parade 3rd team HS all-american. Crean developing a scrawny kid who could barely dribble and shoot and his best sport was ice fishing and after being in Tommy NAismiths presence goes from the same MArketing spin machine as the Dwade had noone else interested in him and was a dimond in the rough and only Crean could see the hidden potential. Sucker born every minute.
-
...Crean developing a scrawny kid who could barely dribble and shoot and his best sport was ice fishing and after being in Tommy NAismiths presence goes from the same MArketing spin machine as the Dwade had noone else interested in him and was a dimond in the rough and only Crean could see the hidden potential. Sucker born every minute.
You were doing so well up to this point.
::)
-
I don't hate the man 02, just think he's overrated. The fact that for 9 years you couldn't have a reasonable discussion of his weaknesses, bothered me.
-
I don't hate the man 02, just think he's overrated. The fact that for 9 years you couldn't have a reasonable discussion of his weaknesses, bothered me.
Fair enough.
Same thing could be said about Mike Holmgren and (gasp) even Al McGuire.
Fans who like teams/coaches have a hard time being objective.
Fans who hate teams/coaches have a hard time being objective.
-
Buzz proves nice guys can win too
The only thing Buzz has proven is that he can't f*ck up a good thing, and he can recruit well. He has yet to win a game that anyone would consider an "upset," and has yet to show he has the abilities to develop anyone. Until he shows that he can do both, he hasn't proven much.
-
I think you are so off your rocker on this one.
That MU team had three NBA players on it (including the greatest player in our history; the player who should've ended his career as leading scorer; and the greatest long range shooter in our history). Had a legit post presence. Had a strong bench. Had shooting, passing, defense. All the intangibles of success. It wasn't nearly the fluke that people love to dismiss it as.
Also, Wade wasn't the best college player in that Final Four. Both Carmelo Anthony and TJ Ford were better college players. You are confusing Wade being the best professional of that group with Wade being the best collegian of that group.
I think you misunderstood my first comment. I am in agreement that we had an amazing team -- that's why I say we may have actually underachieved. I think having a player like Wade is a fluke. And yes, he wasn't appreciated nationally as much because he played in Conference USA, but Wade was much better than Anthony or Ford.
-
MU2002alum you sya "However, the guy graduated the vast, vast majority of players, and he won a LOT of games"
My point all along is you dont have to be an a-hole to do that and it does not make it all right.
We all know and understand your point. If you ask anyone who is "in love with crean" if they would rather have had a nice guy who could have had the same success they would all have said yes. We also would have liked to have a nice guy who would have had even more success. But that guy wasn't here and probably was never available to come to MU until Crean went and hired him for us.
Was crean a jerk to some people in private? YES
Could he have done his job without being one? Probably
Would i do things over and roll the Dice with some random nice guy coach? HELL NO.
A random nice guy coach may not have gotten wade, robert jackson, deiner, novak, our 3, lazar, may not have gotten to the final 4 and may not have gotten us the national exposure we have today.
We don't care if you heard some story about him pissing someone off. People in charge piss people off. If you are the boss and everyone loves you, then you probably are a bad boss. I just don't care about anything you have to say about some time he ticked off someone you know.
All I, and I'm not alone, care about is that he won a lot of games, graduated his players, wasn't caught committing any violations, increased national exposure, and left us better off than when he came. That is it.
If his attitude was a turn off that is Unfortunate, but your feelings are Collateral Damage.
-
Oh by the way he was the highest rated play Crean ever signed.
Actually, in the final RSCI, Diener was 40 while DJ was 36 but they are neck and neck for the highest rated palyer Crean brought in.
-
All I, and I'm not alone, care about is that he won a lot of games, graduated his players, wasn't caught committing any violations, increased national exposure, and left us better off than when he came. That is it.
If his attitude was a turn off that is Unfortunate, but your feelings are Collateral Damage.
Agreed.
-
I think you misunderstood my first comment. I am in agreement that we had an amazing team -- that's why I say we may have actually underachieved. I think having a player like Wade is a fluke. And yes, he wasn't appreciated nationally as much because he played in Conference USA, but Wade was much better than Anthony or Ford.
No misunderstanding. We simply have different opinions.
-
Here's my two cents on Crean. The certainly left the program in much better shape than he found it. BUT, the program had started to regress.
THE PROGRAM REGRESSED? How is making a 3rd straight NCAA tournament regressing, especially after advancing last year and landing two players that are currently starting for IU and KU AND leaving a top 15 team in the wings this year. That's regressing?
I don't know whether Crean was a dick, but I never thought he was a particularly good coach. He was more of a salesman. (The same thing could be said about Al too.) That was enough to improve recruiting and bring in the fans.
Crean improved the program, but the Final Four was really a fluke type of thing for Crean, and in hindsight the team may have actually underachieved. We had BY FAR the best player in college in Wade.
Funny, the experts didn't agree and said Carmelo Anthony was.
People didn't appreciate it at the time, but we all knew. The only way we ever got Wade is that people have always underestimated him at every step of the way. People may forget but we came very close to losing to Holy Cross in the opening round, and had very tight games against Missouri and Pitt. Beating Kentucky was phenomenal, and Wade's performace was one of the greatest tournament games of the decade. Against Kansas, we were outcoached by a Kansas team that was no more talented than us. Kansas was more experienced, but they ended up losing to a Syracuse team with less experience. Since then, we have underachieved every single March. He never recruited a single genuine NBA player after Diener.
Steve Novak, and probably 1 if not 2 from this year's team. Lazar Hayward may also make the NBA.
Fewer players really improved from year-to-year under Crean's tutelage (Wade, Diener, Novak and Jerel), than transferred out (Blankston, Mason) or stagnated (Wes, Dominic, Merritt, Townsend).
Really. Interesting. I think you need a media guide. Diener was not a NBA player when he came to MU, not even after his junior year. Neither was Novak. Jerel has improved each year. Hayward each year. Robert Jackson was much better than anything he showed at Mississippi State. Etc. Some haven't improved, look at every other coach and team in America and I can say the same thing. Did Mason improve at LSU? No, he regressed. Did Amaroso improved at San Diego State against much weaker competition? Nope.
-
I know I was part of the problem in this thread but I say the mods get tough with Crean hi jacked threads. Next time 4warriors, Mr.Hayward, Chicos, Stone Cold, etc. mentions Crean they get a 2 week ban.
I'd like to see who fails first.
Hey, I don't see me mentioning Crean unless it's to set the facts straight. The haters like to re-write history or flat out make stuff up. I'm not hear starting threads about Crean, but I will correct false statements. I'd do the same thing if they were made about Majerus, Deane, KO, Al, etc.
-
MU2002alum you sya "However, the guy graduated the vast, vast majority of players, and he won a LOT of games"
My point all along is you dont have to be an a-hole to do that and it does not make it all right.
And no one ever said someone does need to be a prick / ahole to accomplish these things. However, it's you guys that seem to throw out the baby with the bath water when it comes to this topic.
I think everyone here would LOVE to have someone that can be successful, be a nice guy, etc. Absolutely. But if he is rough around the edges, does piss off a few people but wins, graduates players, doesn't cheat....I'm not going to throw a tantrum every other minute because I don't like that he's arrogant.
-
The only thing Buzz has proven is that he can't f*ck up a good thing, and he can recruit well. He has yet to win a game that anyone would consider an "upset," and has yet to show he has the abilities to develop anyone. Until he shows that he can do both, he hasn't proven much.
i disagree I think this team is vastly superior to what it would be with Crean. We would be constantly gambling on Defense and giving up way too many easy shots. We would talk about a 15 second shot clock in practice and walk the ball up the floo before beginning a set with 8 seconds left in the shot clock and many times be forced into desperation 3's by James and jerel of the dribble. We would not be driving the ball as we are this year, Wesly would be a complimentary players as in the past. we would not be on pace to shoot 200 more free throws than we did last year and would once again shoot fewer than our opponents. we would lose close games as our maniacal coaches nervousness trnscended out team. We would have lost at NCSU for sure and most likely to WVU, Wisonsin, and Noxa IMO. We would be 11-6 right now on our way to yet another 21-12 record and a first round flameout. Correct he has not f'd it up Buzz has made it better. Seen Creans movie, boring .
-
i disagree I think this team is vastly superior to what it would be with Crean.
The beautiful thing about sports is that the games are actually played, and there is indeed a champion.
We will certainly find out if Buzz is a better coach that Crean. (which is entirely possible).
-
The beautiful thing about sports is that the games are actually played, and there is indeed a champion.
We will certainly find out if Buzz is a better coach that Crean. (which is entirely possible).
And since Buzz is going to be here for 5 years at least, let's all hope that he is as good or better than Crean. If so, we all benefit because despite what some people say here (i.e. "every team coached by Crean sucked")....I'd say that we would all be very happy to duplicate what we've done the last 7 years for another 7 years. In a NEW YORK MINUTE.
-
i disagree I think this team is vastly superior to what it would be with Crean.
http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Marquette&y=2008 (http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Marquette&y=2008)
http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Marquette (http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Marquette)
This year MU's average offensive and defensive efficiency is 29 so far.
Last year MU's average offensive and defensive efficiency was 17 for the whole year.
To say we are better than last year is only opinion which cannot be supported by any factual evidence. I don't think stats are the end-all, be-all but there is definitely is some support there to say MU is not playing as good as they did last year. I'll wait to say they are improved over last year until the Warriors start playing some of the conference powers, especially on the road. Granted, the wins over WVU and Nova were nice, but both those wins were at home and those two teams will prolly end up somewhere from 7-10 in the conference.