Never heard of this guy, but he's saying Big Ten is superior.
http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/in_the_paint/posts/35163-conference-power-rankings?eref=fromSI (http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/in_the_paint/posts/35163-conference-power-rankings?eref=fromSI)
He really supports his arguement when he says the Big East is third overall as a conference but has four or five Final Four teams. What?
I don't think many would agree that the Big 10 is better than the Big East, but the Big 10 has played better this year than I anticipated. But to say the Big 10 is better than the Big East just b/c Minn beat Lville is ridiculous.
Yeah, already saw that.....what a joke. Make an argument if you want, but don't use one source that has Penn. St. Ranked ahead of North Carolina as a point of emphasis.
Truth is Big east has the best teams 1-12 but they have 3 or 4 bottom feaders that the other conferences don't have, which lowers their RPI.
EVERY CONFERENCE HAS THEIR BOTTOM FEEDERS FOR EXAMPLE IOWA AND IU ARE SIMPLY TERRIBLE
"2. Big Ten (96-22, .814, 20-19)
Readers likely will not agree with this ranking, but CollegeRPI.com does. The Big Ten is currently ranked No. 2 behind the ACC in the computer rankings. Five teams are in the Top 25, and even Northwestern checks in at No. 7 in the RPI with a 7-2 pre-conference record that includes wins over Florida State and DePaul."
The same DePaul that lost to Morgan State AT HOME. This guy's reasoning is garbage. Say what you will about the RPI, but if you cite a victory over DePaul as a good win you need your head examined.
The only thing that matters is the NCAA tournament.
No, when you are judging the overall quality of the conferences, the Tournament isn't the only thing that matters. The problem with the BE is that there is a load of crap at the bottom that drags the conference down. But there isn't a better top 8 in the country.
Go back to the sportsbubbler board, Abe. Oh, wait.....
Quote from: Pastor of Muppets on December 26, 2008, 07:12:13 PM
The problem with the BE is that there is a load of crap at the bottom that drags the conference down. But there isn't a better top 8 in the country.
South Florida is the only team with a losing record and they have two division one transfers becoming eligible for the second semester.
Quote from: RedWebster on December 24, 2008, 12:46:36 PM
Never heard of this guy, but he's saying Big Ten is superior.
http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/in_the_paint/posts/35163-conference-power-rankings?eref=fromSI (http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/in_the_paint/posts/35163-conference-power-rankings?eref=fromSI)
Unranked West Virginia 76, #13 Ohio State 48...IN COLUMBUS, OH
I believe the Big East has clinched the head to head this year already....though I could be wrong
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 27, 2008, 11:54:04 PM
Unranked West Virginia 76, #13 Ohio State 48...IN COLUMBUS, OH
I believe the Big East has clinched the head to head this year already....though I could be wrong
Yeah,
#13 Ohio State looked much stronger than unranked WV...abe/err redweb...be gone!
Big 10 basketball is to Big East basketball as Wisconsin is to Florida St in football.
Quote from: tower912 on December 28, 2008, 09:13:55 AM
Big 10 basketball is to Big East basketball as Wisconsin is to Florida St in football.
amen.
According to college bball stats site, the BEAST is 5-3 vs the BTen. One game to play. Looks the BEAST won the season series against the BTEN this year.
Red's now ignored by 21 of us...
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 28, 2008, 11:04:59 PM
According to college bball stats site, the BEAST is 5-3 vs the BTen. One game to play. Looks the BEAST won the season series against the BTEN this year.
Pretty much a useless stat unless you take into account which teams played one another and where, don't you think? Frankly, I think the two conferences are about even this year. The BE has more elite teams, but it also has more bad teams. SHU, SJU, Rutgers, PC, Depaul and USF are bad whereas the B11 has PSU and IU which I would consider to be truly bad teams.
about even would be a poor assessment.
come talk to us in march when there are 8 BEAST teams in the tourney and 4-5 BELEVEN teams in the tourney.
Quote from: chrisk1 on December 29, 2008, 09:24:00 AM
Pretty much a useless stat unless you take into account which teams played one another and where, don't you think? Frankly, I think the two conferences are about even this year. The BE has more elite teams, but it also has more bad teams. SHU, SJU, Rutgers, PC, Depaul and USF are bad whereas the B11 has PSU and IU which I would consider to be truly bad teams.
The Big Ten is clearly improved this year. I still believe the Big East is better overall. No doubt that the Big East has more lower-tier teams but what if the two leagues were combined? According to Pomeroy (http://kenpom.com/rate.php) , here is how the conference would stack up (as of 12/29) in the Top 15:
1. Georgetown
2. Pittsburgh
3. West Virginia
4. Connecticut
5. Louisville
6. Purdue (sixth place!!)
7. Illinois
8. Notre Dame
9. Northwestern (wow, ranked #26 in country as of 12/29)
10. Ohio State
11. Villanova
12. Syracuse
13. Michigan
14. Michigan State
15. Marquette
Not a single team in the Top 5 of the combined conference. I understand the Big East as more teams, but hard to say both are equal looking at it.
The Big Ten is TERRIBLE. Ohio St. just got absolutely WOODSHEDDED by the Mountaineers on their home court. And Purdue got trounced by an average Duke team at best. I could go on and on, really. Also, their style of play, 6th grade girls play at a more enjoyable pace. Ugh.
All of this being said, though, makes our win against UW not so hot, maybe? I guess if UW finishes in the top 3, like they should.
northwestern is overrated. We saw what a mid-pack BEast team did to the jewel of the B10 on their court. Balanced by what Minny did to the 'ville, of course. MU is worried about finishing in the top half of the BEast. We would be a top 3 team in the B10.
Chrisk
I largely agree with you, but there was a reason behind it. Abe and other UW fans used to always throw head to head in there which why I did it. Tit for tat.
From my recollection, MU won at home, WVU on the road, UCONN on a neutral court, Minny on a neutral court, and I'm not sure about the rest. Would need to look them up
Quote from: lab_warrior on December 29, 2008, 01:41:22 PM
The Big Ten is TERRIBLE. Also, their style of play, 6th grade girls play at a more enjoyable pace. Ugh.
Couldn't agree more, LW. I was at the Wisconsin vs. Cal St. Fullerton 1st round game in March last year and people were seriously booing and yelling about how boring Wisconsin's style of play is.
On another note: MU's last 5 games have been well documented and discussed. Would you rather encounter that stretch: (@GTown, UCONN, @UL, @PITT, Cuse), or go through a scaaarrry big 11 stretch of @Purdue, MSU, @Minnesota, @Michigan, Wisconsin? It's not even close. The Big East will get at least 4 more teams in the tourney than the Big 10. Then Big 10 idiots will say, "well you have 16 teams." Yes, but the 9 or 10 that make the tourney from the Big East would all be able to play with and beat any Big 10 team that makes the tourney.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 29, 2008, 01:01:30 PM
The Big Ten is clearly improved this year. I still believe the Big East is better overall. No doubt that the Big East has more lower-tier teams but what if the two leagues were combined? According to Pomeroy (http://kenpom.com/rate.php) , here is how the conference would stack up (as of 12/29) in the Top 15:
1. Georgetown
2. Pittsburgh
3. West Virginia
4. Connecticut
5. Louisville
6. Purdue (sixth place!!)
7. Illinois
8. Notre Dame
9. Northwestern (wow, ranked #26 in country as of 12/29)
10. Ohio State
11. Villanova
12. Syracuse
13. Michigan
14. Michigan State
15. Marquette
Not a single team in the Top 5 of the combined conference. I understand the Big East as more teams, but hard to say both are equal looking at it.
Hey, I hate the B10 as much as the next person, but to those of you who say that the B10 sucks, I ask you to use a bit objectivity. That part was not necessarily directed at you dano, but other posters in the thread.
Now, using an objective tool such as the RPI that the tournament committee actually uses, the numbers are quite a bit different and show that the two are pretty even overall. This is based on using the real time rpi site:
1. Pitt
2. Uconn
3. Northwestern :o
4. WVU
5. Michigan
6. Illinois
7. Georgetown
8. Syracuse
9. MSU
10. OSU
11. Minnesota
12. Louisville
13. Nova
14. UW
15. Cinci
16. MU
7 of 16 are Big 10 teams including 3 of the top 6 and 6 of the top 12. Pretty even in my estimation. And this is actually a tool that the tournament committee will use, unlike the pomeroy rankings.
We'll all see how good Northwestern really is when they play more on the road. So far, they have gone 1-2, with losses at Stanford and Butler. They've only beaten one decent team all year (FSU).
You could use an objective measure like the number of vowels in the names of the member teams, which wouldn't necessarily make it reasonable. RPI will be used by the committee at the end of the season - and even then, it has its own issues - but for now some people cite the kenpom numbers because they're generally a little more sensical.
All the same, if you'd like to place a bet on Butler ending up as a 1 seed (they're currently #2 at realtimerpi) or Notre Dame missing the tourney (currently #79), I'm sure you can find some takers.
edit: the Power Rankings (http://www.realtimerpi.com/ncaab/Men.html), on the other hand, are a little more interesting.
How about this. Of the sixteen teams in the Big East, exactly zero would lose to Lipscomb at home.
Quote from: Muhoops85 on December 30, 2008, 12:30:08 AM
How about this. Of the sixteen teams in the Big East, exactly zero would lose to Lipscomb at home.
I'm not so sure DePaul couldn't. They got beat by Morgan State at home eariler this year, so they might be able to pull it off.
South Florida is also a special kind of awful, though they did manage to beat Northeastern at home.
RPI in december is a lot like having snow tires on in July.
pointless/useless
Quote from: dsfire on December 29, 2008, 04:42:30 PM
You could use an objective measure like the number of vowels in the names of the member teams, which wouldn't necessarily make it reasonable. RPI will be used by the committee at the end of the season - and even then, it has its own issues - but for now some people cite the kenpom numbers because they're generally a little more sensical.
All the same, if you'd like to place a bet on Butler ending up as a 1 seed (they're currently #2 at realtimerpi) or Notre Dame missing the tourney (currently #79), I'm sure you can find some takers.
edit: the Power Rankings (http://www.realtimerpi.com/ncaab/Men.html), on the other hand, are a little more interesting.
I'm not sure that I understand what makes the kenpom numbers any more sensible than RPI at this point. To compare my use of the RPI to using the number of vowels in the team's name is obviously an exaggeration, but I see your point and completely disagree with it. While the RPI is imperfect at this point, it is a good indicator of where teams stand currently and suggests that the teams in power conferences will likely stay in that area generally. Since you are playing teams with high RPIs during the conference season every night, your RPI will generally stay relatively high unless you are pathetic and lose each game. It's completely possible that a team like NWU will collapse during the conference season, but it is also likely that a number of those teams will remain where they are at or will improve over the course of the season as their SOS improves and the number of quality wins also increases.
My point was not to use RPI as a tool to rank teams with respect to the rest of the country, but rather with respect to the two conferences being discussed here, the BE and B10. So, your statements regarding Butler and ND miss the point and are irrelevant. As noted above, teams like ND in power conferences will see their RPIs get higher and higher. The inverse is true for those in mid-major conferences like Butler. However, since the B10 and BE are similar conferences, i.e., major conferences, the comparison is more apt.
To use similar logic as you, is ASU a 2 seed? They are #7 in the kenpom rankings. Is Mizzou a high 3 seed? They are #9.
Let's look at some other outliers of the kenpom rankings:
11. BYU
19. KSU - best win is Cleveland State at home by 10
25. Utah St.
26. Northwestern, hmm kenpom also has the wildcats rated pretty highly
Any statistical measure is going to be flawed. I just don't understand why so much weight is being given to kenpom's rankings when they appear to have just as many outliers at this point as RPI, which is actually used by the committee at the end of the year.
I meantioned the vowels thing simply because you picked RPI as an objective measure - objectivity isn't really all that important when talking about which sports teams are better from matchups that haven't happened.
Ken Pom's numbers certainly suffer many of the same issues as the RPI, and will even at tourney time. I think they're a little better because they match up closer to the polls, but I don't put a ton of weight on them either.
The point on SOS is true for some schools and not for others. Pitt currently has the #10 SOS using RPI calculations and may actually decrease throughout the season (especially as a team like Miami of Ohio drops from #21).
I do like the power ratings, though they show Big East virtually head-to-head with the ACC for conference strength with the Big 10 a fair drop back, so people will choose to support what they like. I just think RPI is a really bad measure for comparing conference power - particularly right now.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 30, 2008, 09:16:55 AM
RPI in december is a lot like having snow tires on in July.
pointless/useless
The point is not that RPI should be used now to determine the NCAA filed right now but to compare the two conferences. Further, to ignore the flaws in one statistical measure and highlight them in another is rather stupid and when used to serve a preconceived notion, it makes the bias all that more evident. I think the BE is a better conference top to bottom than the B10, but it is not the runaway victory that some are making it out to be. The B10 is improved over a pathetic season last year and will likely field more NCAA teams than most had expected. In fact, it is entirely possible that the B10 will have a higher percentage of its teams qualify for the tournament than the BE. Note, I did not say it is likely, but merely possible before some of you jump down my throats. I could see up to 6 B10 teams make the tournament and only 8 BE teams making it also.
Quote from: dsfire on December 30, 2008, 09:38:13 AM
I meantioned the vowels thing simply because you picked RPI as an objective measure - objectivity isn't really all that important when talking about which sports teams are better from matchups that haven't happened.
Ken Pom's numbers certainly suffer many of the same issues as the RPI, and will even at tourney time. I think they're a little better because they match up closer to the polls, but I don't put a ton of weight on them either.
The point on SOS is true for some schools and not for others. Pitt currently has the #10 SOS using RPI calculations and may actually decrease throughout the season (especially as a team like Miami of Ohio drops from #21).
I do like the power ratings, though they show Big East virtually head-to-head with the ACC for conference strength with the Big 10 a fair drop back, so people will choose to support what they like. I just think RPI is a really bad measure for comparing conference power - particularly right now.
I would be really surprised if Pitt's SOS drops. Of course, when you are so close to the top in RPI and SOS there is really only one direction you can go. Pitt will play at least half of its games against teams with very high RPIs and that should be enough to remain relatively static or improve slightly. As you pointed out, teams like Miami of Ohio will drop, but that is true across the board. Teams that have played Butler will likely see them drop down the rankings. So, it is truly all relative.
As for your vowels comment, I don't really see the point in making such an exaggerated example. Of course using a statistically questionable metric has some danger, and at no point did I claim that the RPI was the truth, just a potentially better or at worst equal measure as kenpom's numbers.
I am just dumbfounded as to how you can recognize that kenpom and RPI suffer from similar problems, yet then you state that you just don't like using RPI and prefer kenpom! That seems to be completely subjective. They are equally incapable of assessing a team's strength at this point. I just did not like the cherry picking of stats to support a contention that the B10 was so much worse than the BE. I have a feeling that when it is all said and done, the two conferences will align much more closely to how I have them listed by RPI than kenpom does. Only time will tell, but I would feel much more comfortable in using the RPI considering some of the early season results. I'm sorry, the B10 is not the pathetic conference it has been in the past, which makes MU's victory over UW all the better.
Quote from: chrisk1 on December 30, 2008, 09:43:30 AM
The point is not that RPI should be used now to determine the NCAA filed right now but to compare the two conferences. Further, to ignore the flaws in one statistical measure and highlight them in another is rather stupid and when used to serve a preconceived notion, it makes the bias all that more evident. I think the BE is a better conference top to bottom than the B10, but it is not the runaway victory that some are making it out to be. The B10 is improved over a pathetic season last year and will likely field more NCAA teams than most had expected. In fact, it is entirely possible that the B10 will have a higher percentage of its teams qualify for the tournament than the BE. Note, I did not say it is likely, but merely possible before some of you jump down my throats. I could see up to 6 B10 teams make the tournament and only 8 BE teams making it also.
I understand your point, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. RPI is a poor judge of a team at this point in the season (as you have mentioned) because a little more than a third of the season has been played. The obvious point that good conference team's RPI will go up and bad conference team's RPI will go down is like saying the sun rises in the morning.
You can use the RPI to compare at this point, but don't expect everyone to swallow your assessment, nor that of a sports writer looking to make a name for himself by saying something controversial.
The last thing we need in this world is another Ann Coulter ;)