Big Ten vs. Big East

[dsfire]

You could use an objective measure like the number of vowels in the names of the member teams, which wouldn't necessarily make it reasonable.  RPI will be used by the committee at the end of the season - and even then, it has its own issues - but for now some people cite the kenpom numbers because they're generally a little more sensical.

All the same, if you'd like to place a bet on Butler ending up as a 1 seed (they're currently #2 at realtimerpi) or Notre Dame missing the tourney (currently #79), I'm sure you can find some takers.

edit: the Power Rankings, on the other hand, are a little more interesting.

[Muhoops85]

How about this.  Of the sixteen teams in the Big East, exactly zero would lose to Lipscomb at home.

[Tom Crean's Tanning Bed]

How about this.  Of the sixteen teams in the Big East, exactly zero would lose to Lipscomb at home.

I'm not so sure DePaul couldn't.  They got beat by Morgan State at home eariler this year, so they might be able to pull it off.

[dsfire]

South Florida is also a special kind of awful, though they did manage to beat Northeastern at home.

[Hards Alumni]

RPI in december is a lot like having snow tires on in July.

pointless/useless

[chrisk1]

You could use an objective measure like the number of vowels in the names of the member teams, which wouldn't necessarily make it reasonable.  RPI will be used by the committee at the end of the season - and even then, it has its own issues - but for now some people cite the kenpom numbers because they're generally a little more sensical.

All the same, if you'd like to place a bet on Butler ending up as a 1 seed (they're currently #2 at realtimerpi) or Notre Dame missing the tourney (currently #79), I'm sure you can find some takers.

edit: the Power Rankings, on the other hand, are a little more interesting.

I'm not sure that I understand what makes the kenpom numbers any more sensible than RPI at this point.  To compare my use of the RPI to using the number of vowels in the team's name is obviously an exaggeration, but I see your point and completely disagree with it.  While the RPI is imperfect at this point, it is a good indicator of where teams stand currently and suggests that the teams in power conferences will likely stay in that area generally.  Since you are playing teams with high RPIs during the conference season every night, your RPI will generally stay relatively high unless you are pathetic and lose each game.  It's completely possible that a team like NWU will collapse during the conference season, but it is also likely that a number of those teams will remain where they are at or will improve over the course of the season as their SOS improves and the number of quality wins also increases.  

My point was not to use RPI as a tool to rank teams with respect to the rest of the country, but rather with respect to the two conferences being discussed here, the BE and B10.  So, your statements regarding Butler and ND miss the point and are irrelevant.  As noted above, teams like ND in power conferences will see their RPIs get higher and higher.  The inverse is true for those in mid-major conferences like Butler.  However, since the B10 and BE are similar conferences, i.e., major conferences, the comparison is more apt.  

To use similar logic as you, is ASU a 2 seed?  They are #7 in the kenpom rankings.  Is Mizzou a high 3 seed?  They are #9.  

Let's look at some other outliers of the kenpom rankings:

11. BYU
19. KSU - best win is Cleveland State at home by 10
25. Utah St.
26. Northwestern, hmm kenpom also has the wildcats rated pretty highly

Any statistical measure is going to be flawed.  I just don't understand why so much weight is being given to kenpom's rankings when they appear to have just as many outliers at this point as RPI, which is actually used by the committee at the end of the year.

[dsfire]

I meantioned the vowels thing simply because you picked RPI as an objective measure - objectivity isn't really all that important when talking about which sports teams are better from matchups that haven't happened.

Ken Pom's numbers certainly suffer many of the same issues as the RPI, and will even at tourney time.  I think they're a little better because they match up closer to the polls, but I don't put a ton of weight on them either.

The point on SOS is true for some schools and not for others.  Pitt currently has the #10 SOS using RPI calculations and may actually decrease throughout the season (especially as a team like Miami of Ohio drops from #21).

I do like the power ratings, though they show Big East virtually head-to-head with the ACC for conference strength with the Big 10 a fair drop back, so people will choose to support what they like.  I just think RPI is a really bad measure for comparing conference power - particularly right now.

[chrisk1]

RPI in december is a lot like having snow tires on in July.

pointless/useless

The point is not that RPI should be used now to determine the NCAA filed right now but to compare the two conferences.  Further, to ignore the flaws in one statistical measure and highlight them in another is rather stupid and when used to serve a preconceived notion, it makes the bias all that more evident. I think the BE is a better conference top to bottom than the B10, but it is not the runaway victory that some are making it out to be.  The B10 is improved over a pathetic season last year and will likely field more NCAA teams than most had expected. In fact, it is entirely possible that the B10 will have a higher percentage of its teams qualify for the tournament than the BE.  Note, I did not say it is likely, but merely possible before some of you jump down my throats.  I could see up to 6 B10 teams make the tournament and only 8 BE teams making it also.  

[chrisk1]

I meantioned the vowels thing simply because you picked RPI as an objective measure - objectivity isn't really all that important when talking about which sports teams are better from matchups that haven't happened.

Ken Pom's numbers certainly suffer many of the same issues as the RPI, and will even at tourney time.  I think they're a little better because they match up closer to the polls, but I don't put a ton of weight on them either.

The point on SOS is true for some schools and not for others.  Pitt currently has the #10 SOS using RPI calculations and may actually decrease throughout the season (especially as a team like Miami of Ohio drops from #21).

I do like the power ratings, though they show Big East virtually head-to-head with the ACC for conference strength with the Big 10 a fair drop back, so people will choose to support what they like.  I just think RPI is a really bad measure for comparing conference power - particularly right now.

I would be really surprised if Pitt's SOS drops.  Of course, when you are so close to the top in RPI and SOS there is really only one direction you can go.  Pitt will play at least half of its games against teams with very high RPIs and that should be enough to remain relatively static or improve slightly.  As you pointed out, teams like Miami of Ohio will drop, but that is true across the board.  Teams that have played Butler will likely see them drop down the rankings.  So, it is truly all relative. 

As for your vowels comment, I don't really see the point in making such an exaggerated example.  Of course using a statistically questionable metric has some danger, and at no point did I claim that the RPI was the truth, just a potentially better or at worst equal measure as kenpom's numbers. 

I am just dumbfounded as to how you can recognize that kenpom and RPI suffer from similar problems, yet then you state that you just don't like using RPI and prefer kenpom!  That seems to be completely subjective.  They are equally incapable of assessing a team's strength at this point.  I just did not like the cherry picking of stats to support a contention that the B10 was so much worse than the BE.  I have a feeling that when it is all said and done, the two conferences will align much more closely to how I have them listed by RPI than kenpom does. Only time will tell, but I would feel much more comfortable in using the RPI considering some of the early season results.  I'm sorry, the B10 is not the pathetic conference it has been in the past, which makes MU's victory over UW all the better. 

[Hards Alumni]

The point is not that RPI should be used now to determine the NCAA filed right now but to compare the two conferences.  Further, to ignore the flaws in one statistical measure and highlight them in another is rather stupid and when used to serve a preconceived notion, it makes the bias all that more evident. I think the BE is a better conference top to bottom than the B10, but it is not the runaway victory that some are making it out to be.  The B10 is improved over a pathetic season last year and will likely field more NCAA teams than most had expected. In fact, it is entirely possible that the B10 will have a higher percentage of its teams qualify for the tournament than the BE.  Note, I did not say it is likely, but merely possible before some of you jump down my throats.  I could see up to 6 B10 teams make the tournament and only 8 BE teams making it also.  

I understand your point, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it.  RPI is a poor judge of a team at this point in the season (as you have mentioned) because a little more than a third of the season has been played.  The obvious point that good conference team's RPI will go up and bad conference team's RPI will go down is like saying the sun rises in the morning.

You can use the RPI to compare at this point, but don't expect everyone to swallow your assessment, nor that of a sports writer looking to make a name for himself by saying something controversial.

The last thing we need in this world is another Ann Coulter