East Stroudsburg University (D-II, Pennsylvania) figured out how to keep the Warrior name:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/14/sports/14mascot.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=east%20stroudsberg%20video&st=cse
An excerpt from the story:
East Stroudsburg had gone years without a costumed mascot. In 1995, as public sentiment nationally shifted against team nicknames that could be considered racially offensive, the university retained the Warriors name but shed its longstanding American Indian imagery. Leaving Warriors to the imagination frustrated alumni who saw the change as a bow to political correctness.
"We're not getting rid of the concept of Warriors," Doreen Tobin, the vice president for student affairs, said in September. "But we're also not going back to the Native American concept. We're going to do what's best interest of the entire community."
Be sure to watch the video.
Exactly the message we were trying to get across back in '05...
A... bear?
Quote from: Ahoya06 on December 15, 2008, 01:24:11 PM
Exactly the message we were trying to get across back in '05...
Look, the problem in '05 was that the University paid all this lip service to shedding the name Warriors back in the early 90s as the only true way it could rid itself of the negative Native imagery it used earlier. The logic was flawed back in the early 90s no doubt...but the University wasn't going to say "Well, it was all DiUlio's fault" and reverse its decision 15 years later.
the problem was that there were so many people rocking the warrior-native american stuff that it made it clear MU could never separate from the imagery. personally, I'm a golden eagle and i wish they would have just left well enough alone.
No...the problem is that nobody has an image OTHER than a Native American to associate with Warriors. If Marquette provided one, it would be embraced. Until another Warrior image is put forth, you'll see more Willie Wampum shirts than Golden Eagles.
I'd also love to hear somebody explain in logical terms how describing somebody as a "Warrior" -- be it black, white, Native American, Asian, Greek...anybody -- is offensive.
Hey, at least we're not the "Gold."
Quote from: MU gimp ONE on December 15, 2008, 02:15:07 PM
the problem was that there were so many people rocking the warrior-native american stuff that it made it clear MU could never separate from the imagery. personally, I'm a golden eagle and i wish they would have just left well enough alone.
And that would be fixed in a New York second by keeping Warriors and just providing a new symbol to associate it with. It would have been very simple and easily done.
You don't see Golden State Warriors fans with the old Warriors Indian heads on their sweatshirts, t-shirts, etc. They attach the new logo to it.
When I was a student there (87-91) I distinctly remember them trying to have different imagery for the Warrior logo. I remember voting on a new mascot in a poll sponsored by the Marquette Tribune, including a knight, etc. I think this is the process that gave us that lame, Grover-looking thing. (Or maybe it was the process to try to replace it...)
To this day I believe that was DiUlio's baby. Just like his idea for closing Wisconsin Avenue through campus, he had bold ideas without the political savy to understand their consequences. I don't care if MU had come up with an alternative, he was going to have the name changed.
And that's why he didn't last very long. But Father Wild and the BoT weren't going to hang him out to dry on the issue.
Quote from: RedWebster on December 15, 2008, 02:34:19 PM
No...the problem is that nobody has an image OTHER than a Native American to associate with Warriors. If Marquette provided one, it would be embraced. Until another Warrior image is put forth, you'll see more Willie Wampum shirts than Golden Eagles.
I'd also love to hear somebody explain in logical terms how describing somebody as a "Warrior" -- be it black, white, Native American, Asian, Greek...anybody -- is offensive.
Uh, I'm pretty sure there's a damn good example of a Warrior right on Marquette's campus in St. Joan of Arc Chapel.
Quote from: Pastor of Muppets on December 15, 2008, 04:16:20 PM
I remember voting on a new mascot in a poll sponsored by the Marquette Tribune, including a knight, etc. I think this is the process that gave us that lame, Grover-looking thing. (Or maybe it was the process to try to replace it...)
Blueteaux!
I agree with the Gimp One. While I would prefer the name Warriors, I am a Golden Eagle. For as long as I can remember, Marquette has been the Golden Eagles. Dwyane Wade was a Golden Eagle.
The majority of current students who say they identify more with Warriors than Golden Eagles are full of it. I know some current students grew up going to games while they were the Warriors and I will give them that they identify with Warriors. But the majority of students probably didn't even know about the name Warriors until after arriving at Marquette.
I also agree that if Marquette were to have switched the logo and kept the name Warriors, the Native American imagery would drop significantly. People would buy memorabilia with the new mascot in masses. Indian head shirts would still be seen, but they are still seen today as well and we aren't even the Warriors!
Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 15, 2008, 05:08:28 PM
I also agree that if Marquette were to have switched the logo and kept the name Warriors, the Native American imagery would drop significantly.
That would really be all that would have to happen to make the whole thing palatable to the pc masses. Make the logo a knight, or something resembling a spartan from 300 and the problem is solved.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 15, 2008, 05:08:28 PM
Blueteaux!
I agree with the Gimp One. While I would prefer the name Warriors, I am a Golden Eagle. For as long as I can remember, Marquette has been the Golden Eagles. Dwyane Wade was a Golden Eagle.
The majority of current students who say they identify more with Warriors than Golden Eagles are full of it. I know some current students grew up going to games while they were the Warriors and I will give them that they identify with Warriors. But the majority of students probably didn't even know about the name Warriors until after arriving at Marquette.
I also agree that if Marquette were to have switched the logo and kept the name Warriors, the Native American imagery would drop significantly. People would buy memorabilia with the new mascot in masses. Indian head shirts would still be seen, but they are still seen today as well and we aren't even the Warriors!
+1.
And on the topic of the mascot, as lame as it is I would rather have Gold N. Eagle than that Goofy/Yogi Bear thing ESU has or whatever Golden States' mascot is supposed to be.
I am sure this has been debated to the high heavens before, but I just want to add my two cents.
I do not understand how or why these people can claim it offensive. More importantly, I am glad we changed it back in the early 90s because teams like the Washington REDSKINS and the Florida State SEMINOLES and not to mention the Cleveland INDIANS are being forced to change theirs!
I am Greek and feel nothing but pride and a sense of association with teams like USC Trojans, Michigan State Spartans and so on.
This is one topic that I will never be calm about.
There I got it out....
Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 15, 2008, 05:08:28 PM
Blueteaux!
The majority of current students who say they identify more with Warriors than Golden Eagles are full of it.
Agree, while I am aware of the Warrior history and issue, I feel no real connection to anything other than the Golden Eagles.
I for one think we should just be
Marquette. A name so strong that no mascot is needed.
Quote from: warrior55 on December 16, 2008, 10:09:01 AM
I am sure this has been debated to the high heavens before, but I just want to add my two cents.
I do not understand how or why these people can claim it offensive. More importantly, I am glad we changed it back in the early 90s because teams like the Washington REDSKINS and the Florida State SEMINOLES and not to mention the Cleveland INDIANS are being forced to change theirs!
I am Greek and feel nothing but pride and a sense of association with teams like USC Trojans, Michigan State Spartans and so on.
This is one topic that I will never be calm about.
There I got it out....
except that the Seminole Nation said they should keep it. Thank you one Native American group with some sense of pride.
Quote from: warrior55 on December 16, 2008, 10:09:01 AM
I am sure this has been debated to the high heavens before, but I just want to add my two cents.
I do not understand how or why these people can claim it offensive. More importantly, I am glad we changed it back in the early 90s because teams like the Washington REDSKINS and the Florida State SEMINOLES and not to mention the Cleveland INDIANS are being forced to change theirs!
I am Greek and feel nothing but pride and a sense of association with teams like USC Trojans, Michigan State Spartans and so on.
This is one topic that I will never be calm about.
There I got it out....
Agreed... but let's remember there is no logic in the ultra-PC crowd, especially in academia.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 15, 2008, 05:08:28 PM
Blueteaux!
I agree with the Gimp One. While I would prefer the name Warriors, I am a Golden Eagle. For as long as I can remember, Marquette has been the Golden Eagles. Dwyane Wade was a Golden Eagle.
The majority of current students who say they identify more with Warriors than Golden Eagles are full of it. I know some current students grew up going to games while they were the Warriors and I will give them that they identify with Warriors. But the majority of students probably didn't even know about the name Warriors until after arriving at Marquette.
I also agree that if Marquette were to have switched the logo and kept the name Warriors, the Native American imagery would drop significantly. People would buy memorabilia with the new mascot in masses. Indian head shirts would still be seen, but they are still seen today as well and we aren't even the Warriors!
I do concede the notion that as the years go by, there is a growing number of new students who are Golden Eagles, and as a result identifying themselves as such.
But the fact that you (and there are MANY like you) prefer the name Warriors really says something about it all. I think very few people would protest to a return to Warriors, whereas as long as we stay the GE's, the call to change back will never die down.
When MUFan12, notkirkcameron and I ran Students For Warriors in '05, we were definitely able to prove that a large number of current students, despite having no *literal* connection to the Warriors name, wanted to see it come back. Unfortunately, these results fell on deaf ears.
As a PS, Bluteaux, in his confusing and random glory, is awesome. TT, can you get us a throwback night, and wear him to the game?
Quote from: MU_B2002 on December 16, 2008, 10:13:50 AM
I for one think we should just be Marquette. A name so strong that no mascot is needed.
+1000
Quote from: Ahoya06 on December 16, 2008, 02:48:59 PM
As a PS, Bluteaux, in his confusing and random glory, is awesome. TT, can you get us a throwback night, and wear him to the game?
don't think he hasn't tried this already
Am I wrong or isn't it a Native American in the boat with Fr. Marquette on the official MU seal?
Quote from: LancesOtherNut on December 16, 2008, 11:04:04 PM
Am I wrong or isn't it a Native American in the boat with Fr. Marquette on the official MU seal?
yup. and Fr. Marquette is pointing, telling him to row the boat in that direction
Quote from: muwarrior87 on December 17, 2008, 11:18:55 AM
yup. and Fr. Marquette is pointing, telling him to row the boat in that direction
Around the time of the nickname controversy, someone honestly tried to remove the Indian from the seal, saying it was a slave and demeaning.
Like I said, leave logic at the door when heading into ultra-PC academia.
Quote from: Ahoya06 on December 16, 2008, 02:48:59 PM
I do concede the notion that as the years go by, there is a growing number of new students who are Golden Eagles, and as a result identifying themselves as such.
But the fact that you (and there are MANY like you) prefer the name Warriors really says something about it all. I think very few people would protest to a return to Warriors, whereas as long as we stay the GE's, the call to change back will never die down.
It was basically dead until the Trustee brought it up again. It is dead now. I would much rather be Warriors, but I really don't care enough to get all worked up about it.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 17, 2008, 11:21:24 AM
Around the time of the nickname controversy, someone honestly tried to remove the Indian from the seal, saying it was a slave and demeaning.
Like I said, leave logic at the door when heading into ultra-PC academia.
The problem is that your assertion is pretty much illogical. The "academia" at MU never pushed for dropping the Warrior name. In fact, there was never much pressure on the University at all to drop the name - just the use of the Native imagery. It was pretty much Fr. DiUlio pushing it and I wouldn't call him "ultra-PC."
I appreciate that you fought to bring it back while you were a student there. But as a young alumnus back in the early 90s who was living in Milwaukee at the time, I can tell you that there wasn't a bunch of pressure from anywhere about changing the name.
(BTW, I voted "Golden Avalanche" in '05)
I can't speak for what it was like on campus in 94- I was in 4th grade.
I can speak for what it was like in 05, and there was overwhelming faculty opposition to bringing the name back, and they wouldn't even consider Warriors as anything but an insensitive racial slur. They couldn't wrap their minds around the fact that the word Warrior carries no ethnicity and had a hard time believing that the bigoted students and alumni that wanted the awful word back couldn't embrace a new logo.
My recollection from reading McAdam's blog at the time was that about half of the faculty supported the change back to Warriors.
There were some, admittedly less organized. Whole departments spoke out against it though, like the English dept. Also, the University bureaucrats were definitely opposed for the most part.
That was a time I really wish I had back... we put a ton of work into it. If only I would have known the process was a sham and the Indians had veto power, I would have left it well enough alone.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 17, 2008, 02:40:00 PM
There were some, admittedly less organized. Whole departments spoke out against it though, like the English dept. Also, the University bureaucrats were definitely opposed for the most part.
That was a time I really wish I had back... we put a ton of work into it. If only I would have known the process was a sham and the Indians had veto power, I would have left it well enough alone.
eh, we had nothing better to do... ;)
Quote from: Ahoya06 on December 17, 2008, 03:08:33 PM
eh, we had nothing better to do... ;)
My GPA begged to differ.... :-\
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 17, 2008, 02:40:00 PM
There were some, admittedly less organized. Whole departments spoke out against it though, like the English dept. Also, the University bureaucrats were definitely opposed for the most part.
That was a time I really wish I had back... we put a ton of work into it. If only I would have known the process was a sham and the Indians had veto power, I would have left it well enough alone.
Ah the naivety of youth. I remember being SOOO upset when they dropped it originally, but over the course of time I realized that it wasn't that big a deal. I became hardened and calloused.
And it doesn't surprise me about the English Department. English Departments are always the source of the most radical thoughts on college campuses. It comes from having no marketable skills and little income. ;)
Quote from: Pastor of Muppets on December 17, 2008, 01:51:33 PM
The problem is that your assertion is pretty much illogical. The "academia" at MU never pushed for dropping the Warrior name. In fact, there was never much pressure on the University at all to drop the name - just the use of the Native imagery. It was pretty much Fr. DiUlio pushing it and I wouldn't call him "ultra-PC."
I don't know if you'd classify Diulio as ultra PC, but he is against the use of human imagery of any kind in sports nicknames, and it's not just Warriors. When he was at Xavier, DiUlio wanted them to get rid of Muskateers and the pirate logo and switch to an animal nickname and mascot.
Quote from: bma725 on December 17, 2008, 08:02:58 PM
I don't know if you'd classify Diulio as ultra PC, but he is against the use of human imagery of any kind in sports nicknames, and it's not just Warriors. When he was at Xavier, DiUlio wanted them to get rid of Muskateers and the pirate logo and switch to an animal nickname and mascot.
Wished he'd brought that sort of passion to the Fighting Irish. Making it a leprechaun doesn't give ND a pass. The name is an ethnic reference, and to some (like me), it's an offensive one. If the name rule must apply to one ethnic group, it ought to apply to all.
Human mascots are fine with the NCAA, apparently. West Virginia has a Mountaineer; Tennessee has a Volunteer, as well as a dog or something. The Mountaineer carries a rifle, and some of us were wondering how that weapon got past security at MSG at the Big East a couple of years ago. (OK, it's probably a prop, but I remember that the NY Times had a story about it.)