Keno Davis On His Way Out

[nyg]

Did anybody think Providence had some great talent? I actually did. Keno Davis was over his head, though. He took that Drake team, which was built by his father, on a nice run. But he was kind of like Mike Davis...not ready for prime time.

I think losing/kicking off that stud Jermaine Peterson really hurt Providence.  That guy was awesome. 

[El Duderino]

The difference...a guy named Tom Brady.  He didn't have one of those in Cleveland.   Is he a better coach now than in Cleveland...sure hope so.  Experience does wonders for people.  Is he THAT much better or was the situation a lot different?  Better players, Hall of Fame QB, etc?  Note that Bill had one winning season in his career prior to Brady becoming a starter....coincidence?

Great quarterbacks without question make a lot of NFL coaches look really smart. That said, Belicheck did win 11 games with Matt Cassel as his starting QB after Brady got hurt and Belicheck is also the GM there even if he doesn't have the title.

As for Davis, the most damning thing to me when watching Providence play the last two years is just how soft his teams played. Yea, the defense generally under Buzz hasn't exactly been stellar, but i never question that the kids under him play hard and actually care. I can't say that watching Providence and how the players treated getting back on transition defense as if it came with a case of herpes.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Great quarterbacks without question make a lot of NFL coaches look really smart. That said, Belicheck did win 11 games with Matt Cassel as his starting QB after Brady got hurt and Belicheck is also the GM there even if he doesn't have the title.

As for Davis, the most damning thing to me when watching Providence play the last two years is just how soft his teams played. Yea, the defense generally under Buzz hasn't exactly been stellar, but i never question that the kids under him play hard and actually care. I can't say that watching Providence and how the players treated getting back on transition defense as if it came with a case of herpes.

Cassell isn't a slouch, either.  He's a pro bowl QB.  He just never got the chance until then....ironically, a lot how Brady never got a chance until Bledsoe was injured.

[Blackhat]

Providence did have some very solid talent when Keno walked in..


Tim Welsh and his assistant Steve Demeo were very good recruiters.

[El Duderino]

Cassell isn't a slouch, either.  He's a pro bowl QB.  He just never got the chance until then....ironically, a lot how Brady never got a chance until Bledsoe was injured.

Hey, i know this isn't a football forum, but you'll get no argument from me about the importance of quarterbacks in the NFL when it comes to winning.

While i do think Belicheck is a fabulous head coach, even great coaches in the NFL can't win without a quality QB in today's NFL with so many rules passed to benefit the passing game. The days of winning big with just a great defense and a good running game are pretty much over.

An NFL team without a good quarterback is largely irrelevant nowadays.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

It's all about the situation.  We've been over this a million times.  If Keno comes to MU how does he do?  If Buzz goes to PC, how does he do?  If KO never left MU, what would have happened?  If MU hired someone other than Hank after Al left, what happens?  Impossible to tell.  This is idea that coach X was fired elsewhere so he wouldn't have done well here is pure speculation because no one knows that answer....and vice versa (see KO's career)

Bellichek went to Cleveland and they canned him 4 years later.  Did Bellichek suddenly become a better coach a few years later or was the situation different? 

Rumors of Sendek to PC and a few others out there.

So if it is all about the situation, how does a "good" coach do in a perennial situation -- ala Howland at UCLA, Doherty at UNC, Gillespe @ KY or Crean/Davis at Indiana (today all clearly under their fans expectations for what the program was and should be). I think this is completely copping out on the talent aspect of driving change management/success.  SO, give me the perfect manager in the crappiest situation, you probably get crap (this is a unique situation in college bball).  Give me a good manager with a plan (and a reasonable college brand) and you get momentum, recruits and success.

Bellichek had success when he took control of his situation (i.e. started running the org to his strengths & philosophy), and had nothing to do with "luckily falling into a good program"(the Patriots????).  If that were the case, a monkey could run the program after Bobby Knight or Dean Smith or Al McGuire left --- and Pete Carrol would have been a superstar.

Sorry for calling you out on the million and "1"nth time you reviewed this with us.  I must have missed it and didn't realize how crappy situations affected coaching performance -- but now understand how accommodating you have been to Buzz's tough situation at UNO.

 

[Marquette84]

I never stated everyone was disappointed that Davis wasn't hired.

Another84 said: Remember how disappointed everyone around here was when he turned us down?
You replied: Have to agree with Another84 here. 

I really don't think Another's posts was really stating that literally everyone was asking for him to be hired.  

And I don't think he meant literally either.  

I do think his statement implied that he thought a majority wanted Keno hired--not merely considered or interviewed, but hired.  

Well, it wasn't everyone--and wasn't even a majority.  

What he was stating that people did around here and elsewhere that should be looked at.  

No. That's not what he said at all.  Another84 made it a point to say "turned us down" as opposed to "wasn't looked at".

[MarquetteDano]

Another84 said: Remember how disappointed everyone around here was when he turned us down?
You replied: Have to agree with Another84 here. 

I apologize if my post was misconstrued that I was somehow talking about him "turning us down".  I never stated that.  What I was trying to state is that there were plenty of posts calling for him to be interviewed, looked at, etc..  I noticed quite a few posts after Another84's post stating they were suprised that Keno was being talked about.  As if now that Keno has been fired and clearly failed at Providence he was not being talked about for the Marquette opening.  It's revisionist.

But Keno WAS being talked about for the Marquette opening.  He was, by the press, by posters here, by posters on other boards.  In just one search I found various places he was being talked about.  And he was even talked about after Buzz was hired.

[LAMUfan]

So if it is all about the situation, how does a "good" coach do in a perennial situation -- ala Howland at UCLA, Doherty at UNC, Gillespe @ KY or Crean/Davis at Indiana (today all clearly under their fans expectations for what the program was and should be). I think this is completely copping out on the talent aspect of driving change management/success.  SO, give me the perfect manager in the crappiest situation, you probably get crap (this is a unique situation in college bball).  Give me a good manager with a plan (and a reasonable college brand) and you get momentum, recruits and success.

Bellichek had success when he took control of his situation (i.e. started running the org to his strengths & philosophy), and had nothing to do with "luckily falling into a good program"(the Patriots????).  If that were the case, a monkey could run the program after Bobby Knight or Dean Smith or Al McGuire left --- and Pete Carrol would have been a superstar.

Sorry for calling you out on the million and "1"nth time you reviewed this with us.  I must have missed it and didn't realize how crappy situations affected coaching performance -- but now understand how accommodating you have been to Buzz's tough situation at UNO.

 

I think Howland has done fairly well at UCLA regardless of this year

[NYWarrior]

I think Howland has done fairly well at UCLA regardless of this year

Regardless of this year?  UCLA is 22-10 (13-5 in Pac10) with no seniors on the roster.  UCLA is trending strongly after being just 14-18 last year.  The Wear twins are eligible next fall as well.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

To be fair, I was looking for illustrations -- after a good night sleep I would agree UCLA isn't the best example. 

[mikem91288]

Will be interesting to see who they tap for this gig. Despite the fact that Keno f'd up in Providence, its still a great opportunity for a mid major coach to make his way into the premier conference in college basketball.

I hear Kevin O'Neill is available starting Monday.

[NersEllenson]

To be fair, I was looking for illustrations -- after a good night sleep I would agree UCLA isn't the best example. 

You need not apologize, you are trying to have a debate with someone who has double standards, whereby:  IF anyone else does "X" it is okay, but if Buzz Williams does "X," it is unacceptable and should make everyone in the MU community squeamish.

As you pointed out - said poster has only been critical of Buzz Williams and his time at UNO - never giving Buzz any slack..but rather stating how Buzz deserted a program, etc...yet the UNO program couldn't even give players meal money, provide practice facilities, or reliable transportation to and from games.

+1 to this:  I must have missed it and didn't realize how crappy situations affected coaching performance -- but now understand how accommodating you have been to Buzz's tough situation at UNO.

 

[ChicosBailBonds]

So if it is all about the situation, how does a "good" coach do in a perennial situation -- ala Howland at UCLA, Doherty at UNC, Gillespe @ KY or Crean/Davis at Indiana (today all clearly under their fans expectations for what the program was and should be). I think this is completely copping out on the talent aspect of driving change management/success.  SO, give me the perfect manager in the crappiest situation, you probably get crap (this is a unique situation in college bball).  Give me a good manager with a plan (and a reasonable college brand) and you get momentum, recruits and success.

Bellichek had success when he took control of his situation (i.e. started running the org to his strengths & philosophy), and had nothing to do with "luckily falling into a good program"(the Patriots????).  If that were the case, a monkey could run the program after Bobby Knight or Dean Smith or Al McGuire left --- and Pete Carrol would have been a superstar.

Sorry for calling you out on the million and "1"nth time you reviewed this with us.  I must have missed it and didn't realize how crappy situations affected coaching performance -- but now understand how accommodating you have been to Buzz's tough situation at UNO.

Do you believe your examples above are all the same? 

I don't think I, or anyone else here is arguing that a dynamic personality and manager can make great things happen.  MU and Al McGuire is a great example.  Al made MU.  MU had some success before Al, but it was limited.  So when Al left, that was a huge void to fill.   IU, yeah they had Branch McCracken but then went lean for many years.  Bobby Knight resurrected that program.  Dean Smith..we saw what happened when he left.

I don't disagree with any of these assessments (though I think your UCLA example was way off) and don't believe I've said otherwise.  You do need to have a good manager keep the place going. 

However, drill down to the detail level and things change a bit.  What Buzz walked into his first year, well...I won't say a monkey could have done it but pretty darn close.  That bought a ton of the same momentum, recruits, status that you talk about.  So situation DOES matter.  Lavin had a similar phenomenon at UCLA.  I can rattle off many others as well. 

That momentum one gets based on the SITUATION they walk into is huge.  Typically, time will expose them if they aren't all that.  Just like Bruiser Flint, Matt Doherty, etc.  This is why I've always said, wait 5 years.  Personally, I think PC should have waited 5 years with Davis, but that's their call.  So I believe you understate the situation in this case.  Situation is paramount in a number of cases.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You need not apologize, you are trying to have a debate with someone who has double standards, whereby:  IF anyone else does "X" it is okay, but if Buzz Williams does "X," it is unacceptable and should make everyone in the MU community squeamish.

As you pointed out - said poster has only been critical of Buzz Williams and his time at UNO - never giving Buzz any slack..but rather stating how Buzz deserted a program, etc...yet the UNO program couldn't even give players meal money, provide practice facilities, or reliable transportation to and from games.

+1 to this:  I must have missed it and didn't realize how crappy situations affected coaching performance -- but now understand how accommodating you have been to Buzz's tough situation at UNO.

LOL.  No, actually I've not been critical of Buzz's time at UNO or what he had to face.  What I said (I'm happy to provide links) was that UNO fans felt jilted that he left.  I've acknowledged many times the situation was tough. I've also acknowledged many times that I DON'T BLAME HIM FOR DOING WHAT IS RIGHT FOR HIS FAMILY and leaving.  Why do you ignore this?  It so cheapens your argument when you say I'm lying (which I'm not) and you say I have a double standard (when I clearly have acknowledged those difficulties he's had).

It blows me away that with a MU education the idea of reading and comprehension was not taught, apparently in the 1992 to 1998 time frame...is that when they were still letting anyone in with a pulse?   

Examples of where I clearly acknowledged the difficulties and didn't blame Buzz for leaving at all....hmmm.  Care to comment on these threads going back the last 3 years to the present?  Or are they all imaginary?


This one, almost exact exchange nearly a year to the day....reading still a problem for you ners
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=19201.msg194833#msg194833


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8521.msg69339#msg69339

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20524.msg214042#msg214042

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24978.msg283808#msg283808

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21315.msg229384#msg229384

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=16714.msg163249#msg163249

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=14456.msg130711#msg130711

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Do you believe your examples above are all the same?  

I don't think I, or anyone else here is arguing that a dynamic personality and manager can make great things happen.  MU and Al McGuire is a great example.  Al made MU.  MU had some success before Al, but it was limited.  So when Al left, that was a huge void to fill.   IU, yeah they had Branch McCracken but then went lean for many years.  Bobby Knight resurrected that program.  Dean Smith..we saw what happened when he left.

I don't disagree with any of these assessments (though I think your UCLA example was way off) and don't believe I've said otherwise.  You do need to have a good manager keep the place going.  

However, drill down to the detail level and things change a bit.  What Buzz walked into his first year, well...I won't say a monkey could have done it but pretty darn close.  That bought a ton of the same momentum, recruits, status that you talk about.  So situation DOES matter.  Lavin had a similar phenomenon at UCLA.  I can rattle off many others as well.  

That momentum one gets based on the SITUATION they walk into is huge.  Typically, time will expose them if they aren't all that.  Just like Bruiser Flint, Matt Doherty, etc.  This is why I've always said, wait 5 years.  Personally, I think PC should have waited 5 years with Davis, but that's their call.  So I believe you understate the situation in this case.  Situation is paramount in a number of cases.

Don't think by any means that the situations above are all identical.  However, I would say there are many examples of coaches succeeding and failing despite the situation.  I personally believe that the person has more influence than the the trajectory of the situation -- and for me time is a flexible dimension that is given based on a coaches success, attitude and program momentum observed.  Agree to disagree with you there.  

Fair point on Keno -- it is consistent for you to believe he deserved a predetermined amount of rope.

[NersEllenson]

Cite all you want Chicos - there are 3 times as many quotes that would indict you and your consistent witch hunt on all things Buzz...including his dealings at New Orleans.

I was admitted to MU back in 1992, and didn't even require entry through the Freshman Frontier Program...though I was probably a viable candidate for FFP.  I also must confess that I am not sharp enough how to perfect the search function on MU Scoop to regurgitate posts as well as you.  Both you and 84 are remarkable in your ability to do so, and for that I applaud you.

You should be thankful for my search function ineptitude, because I'd have a field day quoting posts of yours that are very disingenious when it comes to Buzz.

[El Duderino]

Do you believe your examples above are all the same? 

I don't think I, or anyone else here is arguing that a dynamic personality and manager can make great things happen.  MU and Al McGuire is a great example.  Al made MU.  MU had some success before Al, but it was limited.  So when Al left, that was a huge void to fill.   IU, yeah they had Branch McCracken but then went lean for many years.  Bobby Knight resurrected that program.  Dean Smith..we saw what happened when he left.

I don't disagree with any of these assessments (though I think your UCLA example was way off) and don't believe I've said otherwise.  You do need to have a good manager keep the place going. 

However, drill down to the detail level and things change a bit.  What Buzz walked into his first year, well...I won't say a monkey could have done it but pretty darn close.  That bought a ton of the same momentum, recruits, status that you talk about.  So situation DOES matter.  Lavin had a similar phenomenon at UCLA.  I can rattle off many others as well. 

That momentum one gets based on the SITUATION they walk into is huge.  Typically, time will expose them if they aren't all that.  Just like Bruiser Flint, Matt Doherty, etc.  This is why I've always said, wait 5 years.  Personally, I think PC should have waited 5 years with Davis, but that's their call.  So I believe you understate the situation in this case.  Situation is paramount in a number of cases.

I wouldn't have waited 5 years

It's one thing if a team isn't winning enough games, it's another thing in my view if the kids won't play hard for a coach. I see that as very damning for any coach and for back to back years those Providence teams under Keno were soft as hell and didn't play hard on defense, especially transition defense.

That would be very tough for me to accept if i was an AD because that would tell me that the players are tuning out the coach because no way Davis was teaching the kids to not hustle back in transition defense.

[GGGG]

You should be thankful for my search function ineptitude, because I'd have a field day quoting posts of yours that are very disingenious when it comes to Buzz.

I think all of MUScoop is thankful.

[NersEllenson]

I think all of MUScoop is thankful.

Funny.  Between 84 and Chicos - they've got the multi-quote post, search function perfected and mastered.  No need for a 3rd brow beater.  I certainly won't become that guy.

[Marquette84]

Cite all you want Chicos - there are 3 times as many quotes that would indict you and your consistent witch hunt on all things Buzz...including his dealings at New Orleans.

I was admitted to MU back in 1992, and didn't even require entry through the Freshman Frontier Program...though I was probably a viable candidate for FFP.  I also must confess that I am not sharp enough how to perfect the search function on MU Scoop to regurgitate posts as well as you.  Both you and 84 are remarkable in your ability to do so, and for that I applaud you.

You should be thankful for my search function ineptitude, because I'd have a field day quoting posts of yours that are very disingenious when it comes to Buzz.

Now I understand. 

How many times have I invited you to go back to April of 2008 and see what I really thought about Buzz at the time of his hire? 

Why do I suspect that your self-admitted ineptitude with search is partly based out of a fear that you just might learn how wrong you've been?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Cite all you want Chicos - there are 3 times as many quotes that would indict you and your consistent witch hunt on all things Buzz...including his dealings at New Orleans.

I was admitted to MU back in 1992, and didn't even require entry through the Freshman Frontier Program...though I was probably a viable candidate for FFP.  I also must confess that I am not sharp enough how to perfect the search function on MU Scoop to regurgitate posts as well as you.  Both you and 84 are remarkable in your ability to do so, and for that I applaud you.

You should be thankful for my search function ineptitude, because I'd have a field day quoting posts of yours that are very disingenious when it comes to Buzz.

All you have to do is admit you are wrong....I have not blasted Buzz for his role at UNO. I've been very careful not to do that.  I provide with you example after example after example and you can't admit you're wrong.  Wow.  Makes one wonder if the obsession is so strong that no matter what evidence is there, you will always go with whatever notion makes you feel some vindication, even if it's only made up in your mind.  Scary.

If you want a tutorial on Search, I am happy to provide it.  Very very simple. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Now I understand. 

How many times have I invited you to go back to April of 2008 and see what I really thought about Buzz at the time of his hire? 

Why do I suspect that your self-admitted ineptitude with search is partly based out of a fear that you just might learn how wrong you've been?

LOL

+1

[NersEllenson]

All you have to do is admit you are wrong....I have not blasted Buzz for his role at UNO. I've been very careful not to do that.  I provide with you example after example after example and you can't admit you're wrong.  Wow.  Makes one wonder if the obsession is so strong that no matter what evidence is there, you will always go with whatever notion makes you feel some vindication, even if it's only made up in your mind.  Scary.

If you want a tutorial on Search, I am happy to provide it.  Very very simple. 

Comedy..coming from you.  Would you like to admit you were wrong being critical about the hiring of Buzz instead of Keno, Grant, Bennett, etc.?  Would you like to admit you were wrong after the DePaul loss last year questioning if we'd make the NIT??  Would you like to admit you called this year's team an 11th place finisher, when in past years under Tom Crean when the team tied for a place you bumped them to the front of the pecking order?

Please don't concern yourself with my health as mentioned in a different topic - I'm quite healthy and certainly not one living in denial and in a lie...and there is no obsesion with you...just occasional accountability.  For you to have called our team a bunch of choking dogs who pee themselves...really speaks volumes about where you fall on the mental health continuim.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Comedy..coming from you.  Would you like to admit you were wrong being critical about the hiring of Buzz instead of Keno, Grant, Bennett, etc.?  Would you like to admit you were wrong after the DePaul loss last year questioning if we'd make the NIT??  Would you like to admit you called this year's team an 11th place finisher, when in past years under Tom Crean when the team tied for a place you bumped them to the front of the pecking order?

Please don't concern yourself with my health as mentioned in a different topic - I'm quite healthy and certainly not one living in denial and in a lie...and there is no obsesion with you...just occasional accountability.  For you to have called our team a bunch of choking dogs who pee themselves...really speaks volumes about where you fall on the mental health continuim.

Sure...I'll admit I was wrong when it comes time to admit it.

On Buzz, I said 5 years...at the five year mark I'll happily give it.  Would Bennett have been a success here, Stallings (who I pushed for), Grant, etc?  We'll never know, now will we?

Sure, I was wrong after the DePaul loss last year...they made the NCAA.  I was thrilled...flew up to San Jose with my son to attend the game.  Didn't see you there, would have been nice to shake your hand.  I was wrong.  Definitely not the first time, won't be the last.

I believe I already corrected the 11th place finish comment...there was already an admission.  You may have missed it, but I'm not sure how. 9th place finish and 11th seed.  Pretty clear what I said.

So let's see, you called me out for three things...two I have apologized for and the third you'll just have to wait two more years on....and with that one, well there were still a bunch of other guys that could have also done the job where we didn't need to take the gamble.  Glad it's working out...so far. 

Now, with all the evidence I presented in this thread that clearly shows I did not blame Buzz for UNO's departure or take issue with him leaving UNO, I'll await your pledge that you were wrong.  Seems only fair.     Hell, I even just posted a Vitale + Bilas loves Buzz article for you to enjoy.  I'll probably be blamed for that in some weird way as well.  LOL