The spirit of the Olympics

[GooooMarquette]

Yep - great to see the US doing so well in the longer distances. 

[jesmu84]

Ryan lochte is dumb.

The US swimmers did NOT get extorted or robbed. They paid for whatever they broke, if only the sign/poster. Then Lochte couldn't tell the truth afterwards - for whatever reason (I'd guess he was too intoxicated during the incident to remember it all)

[GooooMarquette]

Ryan lochte is dumb.

The US swimmers did NOT get extorted or robbed. They paid for whatever they broke, if only the sign/poster. Then Lochte couldn't tell the truth afterwards - for whatever reason (I'd guess he was too intoxicated during the incident to remember it all)

Yep.  He had a chance to make it right, but when asked the question of whether they got robbed or made to pay for their damages, the best he could come up with is "I don't know." 

[forgetful]

Yep.  He had a chance to make it right, but when asked the question of whether they got robbed or made to pay for their damages, the best he could come up with is "I don't know."

Are you going to criticize the Brazil police and government for stating that the bathroom was vandalized when people have now went to look for the evidence and found no damage done to the bathrooms?

In Brazil they have even dropped the bathroom damage from the narrative and only talk about the sandwich poster?  Brazillian authorities will not release all the video, only their edited versions, which Bentz says removes scenes that support their story.

The swimmers were held at gunpoint at forced to hand over all their cash to pay for a sandwich poster advertisement that was admittedly poorly attached to the wall.  The type of advertisement provided for free.  The damages were next to zero if not zero.  Paying for damages would imply, they paid for the cost of the damages, not forced to hand over all their cash at gunpoint, the latter is extortion or robbery in the US.  Their mistake is that in Brazil that is not extortion or robbery, it is business as usual. 

Again, Lochte was a moron, but if he would have just came out and told the true story, the media would have been all over how American swimmers held at gunpoint and extorted of all their cash for a sandwich advertisement.  Instead, Lochte managed to make the Americans look bad and place the focus on his idiotic behavior. 

The worst though is still for Feigen. $11k for telling the truth in his police report.  The Austrailian swimmers robbed of $1000 did the right thing and refused to talk to police or file a police report.

[rocket surgeon]

I think lochte got caught up in the "gotcha" moment.  This often happens when drinking is involved.  They were morons for putting themselves in to this position.  Having a little too much fun, celebrating, etc...but they forgot, they were not in Kansas. Foreign countries have different sets of rules for foreigners and Americans.  They love to play with us.  with all the serious chit going on every day in these,countries, this should have been a "move along,nothing to see here" moment.  BUT, what do we have here? Americans? An American Olympian?  An American Olympian with a gold medal? 

Get your asses back to America and party your brains out, but now, mr. Lochte probably cost himself some serious coin from potential and/or existing sponsors.  It's not like this dude is 18 yet, or is he?  Did he skip the class on do's and don't' of d!cking around in foreign countries?

[GooooMarquette]

The Austrailian swimmers robbed of $1000 did the right thing and refused to talk to police or file a police report didn't lie.

FIFY

[GooooMarquette]

Awesome to see Rupp take the Bronze in the marathon!  Continued resurgence of US distance running.

[naginiF]

Nah, screw Neymar and Brazilian soccer. Neymar fouled someone really had today and he ended up being the one on the ground crying in pain. No respect for him.

I'm not a big soccer fan but that was an entertaining match and, as Brew said, the ending was a great moment.  The truth about the bolded part of your comment is that the flopping/over reacting/generally being aghast after every play is part of the game.  It definitely detracts from the game but it's ingrained in the players (much like every wide receiver after any pass they don't catch).  I agree it's whiney poor sportsmanship, unfortunately you see it on both sides of the ball in EVERY soccer game - one reason i'm not a big fan.

[GooooMarquette]

In a positive note, US pole vaulter San Kendricks (US Army Reserve) stopped mid-run during a vault when he heard the Star Spangled Banner...then went on to win the bronze!

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

I'm not a big soccer fan but that was an entertaining match and, as Brew said, the ending was a great moment.  The truth about the bolded part of your comment is that the flopping/over reacting/generally being aghast after every play is part of the game.  It definitely detracts from the game but it's ingrained in the players (much like every wide receiver after any pass they don't catch).  I agree it's whiney poor sportsmanship, unfortunately you see it on both sides of the ball in EVERY soccer game - one reason i'm not a big fan.

I wouldn't say every game to that extent. The most egregious offenders are South American players. Neymar, Cuadrado from Colombia, Suarez from Urguay, the entire Argentine team. Premier league isn't nearly as bad as the international game.

[wadesworld]

Lochte himself admits that he lied about what happened, yet forgetfull won't give it up.

[forgetful]

FIFY

They also refused to file a police report or talk to police, there is a reason for that.  Olympians were told to avoid interactions with police if at all possible. 

And 3 American swimmers told the complete truth from the beginning. 

Only Lochte lied, and it is coming out that his police report was largely accurate (he said they were robbed at gunpoint by security outside a gas station bathroom), only his public statements were inaccurate.

Quit focusing on Lochte and his lying and look at the entirety of the story and the other 3 Americans.

Spot on.  As I've said.  In the US, Lochte would still be getting criticism for lying/exaggeration.  But they would all be considered victims and the security guards would be in jail.
I think lochte got caught up in the "gotcha" moment.  This often happens when drinking is involved.  They were morons for putting themselves in to this position.  Having a little too much fun, celebrating, etc...but they forgot, they were not in Kansas. Foreign countries have different sets of rules for foreigners and Americans.  They love to play with us.  with all the serious chit going on every day in these,countries, this should have been a "move along,nothing to see here" moment.  BUT, what do we have here? Americans? An American Olympian?  An American Olympian with a gold medal? 

Get your asses back to America and party your brains out, but now, mr. Lochte probably cost himself some serious coin from potential and/or existing sponsors.  It's not like this dude is 18 yet, or is he?  Did he skip the class on do's and don't' of d!cking around in foreign countries?

[naginiF]

I wouldn't say every game to that extent. The most egregious offenders are South American players. Neymar, Cuadrado from Colombia, Suarez from Urguay, the entire Argentine team. Premier league isn't nearly as bad as the international game.

I'm sure you are right, i don't follow enough to understand the nuances between leagues.  The games i watch seem to support the stereotype.

Completely different topic:
Anyone have any thoughts on that Powerade commercial where the boxer gets his motivation through a fuzzy concussion dream while staring at the mat?  I don't think it crossed the line but i wouldn't have picked that spot if i was the Ad guy at Powerade. 

[forgetful]

Lochte himself admits that he lied about what happened, yet forgetfull won't give it up.

I've repeatedly said he lied/exaggerated.  No one is contesting that and haven't been for days after more information came out.

I've repeatedly said that doesn't mean they were not victims of robbery/extortion.  That is the key distinction.  He lied about what happened to them.  They were still held at gunpoint and forced to hand over all his money.  That is why Lochte said that aspect was a matter of perspective.  I guarantee if the exact same thing happened to 99% of us, we would say we were robbed/extorted at gunpoint.  Honestly, if you think otherwise, you are lying to yourself.

If this happened in the US, the security guards would be in jail for armed robbery.  Lochte would still have been criticized for lying/exaggeration. 

[jesmu84]

I've repeatedly said he lied/exaggerated.  No one is contesting that and haven't been for days after more information came out.

I've repeatedly said that doesn't mean they were not victims of robbery/extortion.  That is the key distinction.  He lied about what happened to them.  They were still held at gunpoint and forced to hand over all his money.  That is why Lochte said that aspect was a matter of perspective.  I guarantee if the exact same thing happened to 99% of us, we would say we were robbed/extorted at gunpoint.  Honestly, if you think otherwise, you are lying to yourself.

If this happened in the US, the security guards would be in jail for armed robbery.  Lochte would still have been criticized for lying/exaggeration.

Here's where I disagree. According to reports, the armed security told the swimmers they could pay out of their pockets or they were going to call the police.  That's not extortion or robbery. I've had many friends get in similar situations. Not to mention, how many robberies/extortions involve an innocent bystander acting as translator?

[forgetful]

RSA she/he wins da 800. Dis is fooked up, hey?

My wife was watching with me and she looked up and asked why a man was running with the women.  No way that she/he isn't genetically male.

[forgetful]

Here's where I disagree. According to reports, the armed security told the swimmers they could pay out of their pockets or they were going to call the police.  That's not extortion or robbery. I've had many friends get in similar situations. Not to mention, how many robberies/extortions involve an innocent bystander acting as translator?

I can understand this, but the "innocent bystander" has been shown to be lying.  He says at no point whatsoever were guns drawn.  Numerous other witnesses (not including the americans) say at least 1 gun was drawn and pointed at the American's on more than 1 occasion.  There are also the video frames that confirm this that have been deliberately edited out by Brazil authorities who refuse to release the entire video.  Gooo and others seem to ignore this.

Other witnesses and both american's who have not lied at any point say they were told they had to hand over money (at gunpoint:  again these scenes edited out) in order to go; not for damages as the "innocent bystander" states. 

As for the police being called, these individuals have been told to avoid any interaction with police at all cost as they are corrupt and it will cost them dearly.  On top of that, at the scene they were being accused of far more damage than they did (which would have made it criminal vandalism and subject to jail time). 

The latter damage (e.g. bathrooms, mirrors, doors) has been refuted.  The only damage was to a sandwich poster.  So they were being forced to pay for nonexistent damage, under the threat of jail time. 

It is the fact that the Brazil authorities have repeatedly lied and provided only altered video; and that they were facing trumped up lies about the damages that put them at risk of jail time; while at gunpoint that makes it robbery/extortion. 

As I said in a previous post.  If they were asked to pay for the actual damages (a sandwich poster); I'd be ok with it.  Rather they were forced to hand over all of their cash (fortunately only $50).  Which far exceeds the damages...that is robbery/extortion.

There were three victims in this story.  Bentz, Conger and Feigen.  It is for these three that I am so adamant about setting the record straight.  The whole ordeal is full of lies by Brazil and Lochte.  These three have been truthful and were held at gunpoint and forced to pay $50 for a poster.  I'd be a rich man if I could go around selling sandwich posters for $50.

[Pakuni]

My wife was watching with me and she looked up and asked why a man was running with the women.  No way that she/he isn't genetically male.

She isn't genetically male.
It's sad that she's been mocked, humiliated, insulted and subjected to excessive scrutiny for the sin of not conforming with some Western ideals of womanhood.

[forgetful]

She isn't genetically male.
It's sad that she's been mocked, humiliated, insulted and subjected to excessive scrutiny for the sin of not conforming with some Western ideals of womanhood.

With all due respect there is reasonable concern.  South Africa hid her medical records for years and refused to allow her to be tested.  Sports organizations suspended her because of this and forced her to undergo testing.  South Africa contested this and the results have never been released, but she was allowed to return to competition.  Some aspects of the testing are known (they were leaked) and she is part of what is termed "intersex". 

She suffers from hyperandrogenism and has been shown to have internal, non-descended testicles. The combination leads to very high levels of natural testosterone in Women as well as indicating that she has genetic/epigenetic markers consistent with being male.  It's been ruled that people suffering from this can now compete as women.  It is still being questioned and it is believed that the IOC is going to require that women that suffer from her condition take medications to lower testosterone to normal female levels in order to compete as a woman, because of an unfair, but natural advantage.

I'm very sensitive to the gender identity movement, but this isn't simply a "sin of not conforming to western ideals of womanhood".  I assure you I would be her strongest defender if that was the case.  I am actually a big proponent of transexual individuals being allowed to compete as their perceived gender, but the requirement there is that they take hormone that render them comparable to their perceived gender. 

Their are actually several transgender olympians (including Chris Mosier) competing in Rio, which I love, but IOC rules state they have to prove that their hormone levels match their identified gender, if not they are not allowed to compete.  The same should apply to intersex individuals, like Caster.  Right now she is being provided an unfair advantage compared to her competitors.

I apologize though for the nonchalant way I commented on it.  It is a complex issue and I understand how the way I stated it could come across differently than the way I view/see the issue.

[Pakuni]

With all due respect there is reasonable concern.  South Africa hid her medical records for years and refused to allow her to be tested.  Sports organizations suspended her because of this and forced her to undergo testing.  South Africa contested this and the results have never been released, but she was allowed to return to competition.  Some aspects of the testing are known (they were leaked) and she is part of what is termed "intersex". 

She suffers from hyperandrogenism and has been shown to have internal, non-descended testicles. The combination leads to very high levels of natural testosterone in Women as well as indicating that she has genetic/epigenetic markers consistent with being male.  It's been ruled that people suffering from this can now compete as women.  It is still being questioned and it is believed that the IOC is going to require that women that suffer from her condition take medications to lower testosterone to normal female levels in order to compete as a woman, because of an unfair, but natural advantage.

I'm very sensitive to the gender identity movement, but this isn't simply a "sin of not conforming to western ideals of womanhood".  I assure you I would be her strongest defender if that was the case.  I am actually a big proponent of transexual individuals being allowed to compete as their perceived gender, but the requirement there is that they take hormone that render them comparable to their perceived gender. 

Their are actually several transgender olympians (including Chris Mosier) competing in Rio, which I love, but IOC rules state they have to prove that their hormone levels match their identified gender, if not they are not allowed to compete.  The same should apply to intersex individuals, like Caster.  Right now she is being provided an unfair advantage compared to her competitors.

Of course she has an advantage. But it's an advantage she was born with. She shouldn't be barred from competing because of that advantage any more than we would ban Yao Ming for being 5 inches taller than anyone else on the court, or ban Michael Phelps for being double-jointed in his ankles and chest, or ban Kenyan athletes who are born with physical traits that make them better long-distance runners than anyone else in the world.

Shocking news ... elite athletes aren't like the rest of us. They all have genetic advantages, some more than others. She shouldn't be punished for her advantage.  The runners Semenya competes against may not have her testosterone levels, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts they have high testosterone levels compared to the vast majority of women.

The transgender issue is a red herring. Caster Semenya isn't someone who was born with the parts of one gender but self-identifies as another. She was born a woman. A woman with very high testosterone levels, but a woman nonetheless.

[GooooMarquette]

Quit focusing on Lochte and his lying and look at the entirety of the story and the other 3 Americans.

OK, I'll look at the other 3 Americans - they got screwed over by their a$$hat teammate.

As for the Rio police, start a different thread if you want.  This thread - "The spirit of the Olympics" - was focusing the acts of the athletes.  The vast majority of them were exemplary, both as ambassadors of goodwill and as world-class athletes. 

[GooooMarquette]

Of course she has an advantage. But it's an advantage she was born with. She shouldn't be barred from competing because of that advantage any more than we would ban Yao Ming for being 5 inches taller than anyone else on the court, or ban Michael Phelps for being double-jointed in his ankles and chest, or ban Kenyan athletes who are born with physical traits that make them better long-distance runners than anyone else in the world.

Shocking news ... elite athletes aren't like the rest of us. They all have genetic advantages, some more than others. She shouldn't be punished for her advantage.  The runners Semenya competes against may not have her testosterone levels, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts they have high testosterone levels compared to the vast majority of women.

The transgender issue is a red herring. Caster Semenya isn't someone who was born with the parts of one gender but self-identifies as another. She was born a woman. A woman with very high testosterone levels, but a woman nonetheless.

Agreed.  It's really unfortunate for the others in this event, but Semenya did nothing wrong.

[forgetful]

Of course she has an advantage. But it's an advantage she was born with. She shouldn't be barred from competing because of that advantage any more than we would ban Yao Ming for being 5 inches taller than anyone else on the court, or ban Michael Phelps for being double-jointed in his ankles and chest, or ban Kenyan athletes who are born with physical traits that make them better long-distance runners than anyone else in the world.

Shocking news ... elite athletes aren't like the rest of us. They all have genetic advantages, some more than others. She shouldn't be punished for her advantage.  The runners Semenya competes against may not have her testosterone levels, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts they have high testosterone levels compared to the vast majority of women.

The transgender issue is a red herring. Caster Semenya isn't someone who was born with the parts of one gender but self-identifies as another. She was born a woman. A woman with very high testosterone levels, but a woman nonetheless.

Clarification, she was born an individual with both male (testicles) and female (vagina/ovaries) reproductive organs.  The transgender issue is not a red herring, as it poses the question of what defines gender? 

If its reproductive organs, she has both, so is she male or female?

If its genenetics/epigenetics, then she has traits of both, so is she male or female?

The simple answer to this and the one I prefer, is it is a matter of identity.  So, by competing as a woman, she is saying her gender is female.  According to international rules, she must then have hormone levels typical of females.  She does not.

As for the bolded above.  It is an extremely difficult and interesting statement and one that is a huge question in the current athletic community.  There are numerous genetic advantages some athletes have and you are right, we do not discriminate against these advantages.  We are also now at an age where chemically, or genetically we can alter the genetic and epigenetic markers of individuals (Gattica, but even more advanced); should this be allowed and how if not how do we discern natural genetical alteration from unnatural. 

Where I define a difference here is that gender, historically is a genetic advantage that we have decided to separate, because it was easy to discern differences between genders on a visual level.  We now know gender is more fluid and the genetic aspects of gender are not discernible on a visual level. 

So how do we separate individuals based on gender so there are no gender based advantages?  Or do we just stop separating genders?

I'm actually reposting this in a new thread.  Its a bit dicey of a topic, but one I would be interesting of hearing others chime in on.  I'm going to ask in advance that no one goes into politics as this skirts political issues.

[Tugg Speedman]

Of course she has an advantage. But it's an advantage she was born with. She shouldn't be barred from competing because of that advantage any more than we would ban Yao Ming for being 5 inches taller than anyone else on the court, or ban Michael Phelps for being double-jointed in his ankles and chest, or ban Kenyan athletes who are born with physical traits that make them better long-distance runners than anyone else in the world.

Shocking news ... elite athletes aren't like the rest of us. They all have genetic advantages, some more than others. She shouldn't be punished for her advantage.  The runners Semenya competes against may not have her testosterone levels, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts they have high testosterone levels compared to the vast majority of women.

The transgender issue is a red herring. Caster Semenya isn't someone who was born with the parts of one gender but self-identifies as another. She was born a woman. A woman with very high testosterone levels, but a woman nonetheless.

+1

The unfair disadvantage Caster Semenya must endure to compete for Olympic gold

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/unfair-disadvantage-caster-semenya-must-000000810.html

“Genetic conditions that enhance performance in sport include congenital mutations of the erythropoietin receptor gene leading to high levels of hemoglobin, which does not disqualify athletes,” Genel wrote. “There is no fundamental difference between congenital disorders leading to elevated testosterone levels, functional or not, and an erythropoietin receptor mutation leading to high hemoglobin.”

Put simply, there’s no reason for “congenital disorders leading to elevated testosterone levels” to disqualify athletes when genetic conditions leading to high levels of hemoglobin don’t.

Genel points to other athletes who have had genetic differences, including Michael Phelps, with his supreme flexibility and enormous feet. It’s never suggested that Phelps should step aside for the shorter Ryan Lochte because of something he can’t control. Nor is it suggested that, say, Kevin Durant should remove himself from the Olympics because he’s too close to the basketball rim.

Also, consider all the advantages certain athletes are granted without any work: wealthy parents, a city with many resources, a country with support for budding athletes, a community with excellent teachers and coaches. Of course, hard work is crucial and revered, but the Olympics would look very different if hard work was the only variable in athletic success.

The problem is that most differences are celebrated. For instance, Katie Ledecky is praised for swimming “like a guy”, while Semenya’s differences are abhorrent to a vocal chorus of competitors and fans.

---------------------

Forgetful - should MU not have perused Henry Ellenson because he is a foot taller than most of the kids near your local high school?  After all, it is inherently unfair to them that he is so athletic and so tall.

[forgetful]

Forgetful - should MU not have perused Henry Ellenson because he is a foot taller than most of the kids near your local high school?  After all, it is inherently unfair to them that he is so athletic and so tall.

Transferred your statement and replied in the other thread.