Marquette University adopts vision to raise its profile

[ChicosBailBonds]

Why govt is involved in so many activities is beyond me. Thomas Jefferson is spinning in his grave.

"A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circlue of our felicities."

Power.  Get a lot of people to rely on you for just about everything, and you get what you get. The more folks you get, the more power is accumulated. TJ isn't the only one....the teets for suckling are moist with dollars, it won't be changing anytime soon.  It's a new normal.

[keefe]

I think it depends on a lot of things.  I'm a perfect example of what you stated earlier.   Liberal arts degree with political science and history and currently responsible for about $3 billion in business per year.  Only one person on my team has a MBA, though several of us have masters degrees in other areas.  All went to solid schools.  I would say that it took a lot of years and proven track record to get there where in other departments a certain degree will get you into the door quicker.  Some departments pretty much 100% of the folks have an MBA or some type skilled degree (finance, accounting, etc) that is more in demand.  I have definitely noticed in the last few years some departments won't consider anyone without a certain degree and that didn't used to be the case.

Our department is a bit different.  My philosophy has been to hire good people, critical thinkers, people that make smart and common sense decisions.  If they were an English major, so be it as long as they are capable people.  Sometimes certain folks are a bit too myopic based on their core competencies and that isn't always what you need, at least in my field.  If I need high powered analytics or financial gurus, then I'll call on those other departments that specialize in those areas to get involved.  We may be the exception, but we certainly have a number of liberal arts folks in our department with a more "generalist" approach and we have done well in the businesses we run.  Stock all-time high today.  Been a crazy run....won't last forever but we'll make a go of it.

Chico, you know what works in the private sector because you have significant experience in the corporate world. Not everyone has that perspective yet they feel competent to comment. The hubris is what is really most shocking.

[keefe]

Power.  Get a lot of people to rely on you for just about everything, and you get what you get. The more folks you get, the more power is accumulated. TJ isn't the only one....the teets for suckling are moist with dollars, it won't be changing anytime soon.  It's a new normal.

Anyone familiar with Tacitus or Suetonius would fear what has become of our government in less than a century. De Viris Illustribus and De Vita Caesarum are compelling reads with insight for today. George Santayana warned in Reason in Common Sense, The Life of Reason, Vol. 1, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

We already subsidize high schools and elementary schools, why is college the magic cut-off?

Colleges attract people from out of state, they provide jobs and they have a big economic impact. Ask La Crosse,Whitewater or Eau Claire where they would be without the college(s).

Also, having a state with only private schools would probably greatly limit the qualified graduates/applicants/workers in the state and ultimately lead to businesses leaving or not even starting in (insert state).

I'm not in favor of frivolous government handouts, but I think investing in secondary education is worthwhile.

Also, MU is "subsidized" through donations. It's not truly run like a for-profit business. 

[Hards Alumni]

I'd like to high five you two on your circle jerk.  It is truly impressive.  I'm going to refrain from responding directly to your posts since I'm sure you two have politicized this thread enough, and if I joined in I'm sure the thread would get locked rather quickly.

Suffice to say, that I disagree with both of your simplifying it all. 

[GGGG]

It is atypical in your world.

No, it is atypical of the world at large.  Your wonderful, fantastic, God-on-the-face-of-the-earth kids are the ones who are the exception.  And of course they are...they're keefe's kids!!!  Honestly, I am simply blessed to share this mortal coil with them.

[GGGG]

I'd like to high five you two on your circle jerk.  It is truly impressive.  I'm going to refrain from responding directly to your posts since I'm sure you two have politicized this thread enough, and if I joined in I'm sure the thread would get locked rather quickly.

Suffice to say, that I disagree with both of your simplifying it all.  

+1 to this.

[Eldon]

I think it depends on a lot of things.  I'm a perfect example of what you stated earlier.   Liberal arts degree with political science and history and currently responsible for about $3 billion in business per year.  Only one person on my team has a MBA, though several of us have masters degrees in other areas.  All went to solid schools.  I would say that it took a lot of years and proven track record to get there where in other departments a certain degree will get you into the door quicker.  Some departments pretty much 100% of the folks have an MBA or some type skilled degree (finance, accounting, etc) that is more in demand.  I have definitely noticed in the last few years some departments won't consider anyone without a certain degree and that didn't used to be the case.

Our department is a bit different.  My philosophy has been to hire good people, critical thinkers, people that make smart and common sense decisions.  If they were an English major, so be it as long as they are capable people.  Sometimes certain folks are a bit too myopic based on their core competencies and that isn't always what you need, at least in my field.  If I need high powered analytics or financial gurus, then I'll call on those other departments that specialize in those areas to get involved.  We may be the exception, but we certainly have a number of liberal arts folks in our department with a more "generalist" approach and we have done well in the businesses we run.  Stock all-time high today.  Been a crazy run....won't last forever but we'll make a go of it.

This is spot on.  I think too many people fool themselves into thinking that their area of expertise is far more technical than it actually is and thus they feel that they need to hire people who majored in that field, which is simply not the case.   I feel this is especially the case in the business world.  Aside from jobs in analytics and accounting, I don't think you really need a specialized degree to do work in the other fields.  That is to say, I believe that, generally speaking, a philosophy major is just as prepared (if not more so) as a marketing major to do the job on day one.

[keefe]

We already subsidize high schools and elementary schools, why is college the magic cut-off?

Colleges attract people from out of state, they provide jobs and they have a big economic impact. Ask La Crosse,Whitewater or Eau Claire where they would be without the college(s).

Also, having a state with only private schools would probably greatly limit the qualified graduates/applicants/workers in the state and ultimately lead to businesses leaving or not even starting in (insert state).

I'm not in favor of frivolous government handouts, but I think investing in secondary education is worthwhile.

Also, MU is "subsidized" through donations. It's not truly run like a for-profit business. 

And to paraphrase warriorchick, look how well public education is working out.

Public education in this country is a disaster. K-12 is a failure and we have overbuilt both community colleges and 4 year schools. We subsidize mediocrity. Frankly, many of the graduates of some of these state "universities" are not near the caliber of what truly merits the title university graduate.

This is not to say public universities are not effective. Flagship universities offer the public a cost effective opportunity which is a great thing. But we not need as many campuses as we now have. The excess capacity has diluted the quality. I believe we need a University of Michigan. I am not as certain we need an Eastern Michigan.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I believe we need a University of Michigan. I am not as certain we need an Eastern Michigan.

That's actually an interesting point. Never thought about it.

So it's not school subsidies you are against, it's that there are too many universities?

[swoopem]

I believe we need a University of Michigan. I am not as certain we need an Eastern Michigan.

but then where would th Deja Vu in Yipsilati get their dancers from?

Bring back FFP

[keefe]

That's actually an interesting point. Never thought about it.

So it's not school subsidies you are against, it's that there are too many universities?

Correct. Land Grant universities have played a crucial role in advancing American culture and society. But the diminution in quality from flagships to branch campuses is staggering. And to ask already over burdened tax payers to continue to subsidize mediocrity is an outrage.  

[keefe]

That's actually an interesting point. Never thought about it.

So it's not school subsidies you are against, it's that there are too many universities?

Read Matthew Arnold, Culture and Anarchy. His thinking on this is incisive.

[keefe]

I'd like to high five you two on your circle jerk.  It is truly impressive.  I'm going to refrain from responding directly to your posts since I'm sure you two have politicized this thread enough, and if I joined in I'm sure the thread would get locked rather quickly.

Suffice to say, that I disagree with both of your simplifying it all. 

Brevity does not equal simplifying. I would welcome a full dialogue with you on this or any other topic. We could hold it in Seattle where you would enjoy a decided home court advantage. perhaps Jim McDermott or Maria Cantwell could moderate? Well, moderate is not quite correct....uh, host, shall we say?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Correct. Land Grant universities have played a crucial role in advancing American culture and society. But the diminution in quality from flagships to branch campuses is staggering. And to ask already over burdened tax payers to continue to subsidize mediocrity is an outrage.  

Just to carry this out... what you are suggesting is basically abolishing a large number of universities, leading to less college graduates, right?

Certainly there will be more competition for the remaining spots at the remaining schools, and some new private schools may even pop up to fill the void (Free market, hooray!). But, how long will that take for all of this to equalize? 10 years? 20 years?

It's a global economy now, so I'm not sure that American could sustain losing that many college grads, could it?

To put it another way, I do think the government spends too much money. I'm not sure I'd put secondary education high on that list. Probably other things I would chase first.

[keefe]

Just to carry this out... what you are suggesting is basically abolishing a large number of universities, leading to less college graduates, right?

Certainly there will be more competition for the remaining spots at the remaining schools, and some new private schools may even pop up to fill the void (Free market, hooray!). But, how long will that take for all of this to equalize? 10 years? 20 years?

It's a global economy now, so I'm not sure that American could sustain losing that many college grads, could it?

To put it another way, I do think the government spends too much money. I'm not sure I'd put secondary education high on that list. Probably other things I would chase first.

It would be great if everyone could get a proper college education but the fact is that there are huge qualitative differences in degrees. And not everyone can or should get one - whether for reasons of financial or intellectual ability. There are huge qualitative differences in college grads and the school listed on the resume is a superb barometer of the quality of the individual behind the paper. 

It is a global economy but I am not convinced that losing thousands of Platteville, IUIPUI, or Sam Houston State grads will hinder American innovation, creativity, and global competitiveness. Personally, rather than continue to churn out mediocre high school graduates who continue on to mediocre colleges I would rather we focus on fixing the problems upstream. because that is where the real issues are resident.

I spent most of my life in Asia. I went to Japanese schools for grade school before attending an international school for 6-8. My kids attended international schools, Japanese grade school, and English Foundation schools. I can tell you from that experience our schools are far, far behind. Japanese students begin algebra in 4th year. American kids get it as Freshmen and even then it is not a core requirement. Kids in Asia communicate crisply and effectively and are conversant in their cultural heritage. Their hard science and maths curricula put us to shame.

Global competitiveness is being won in the classroom in grade school. Kids in Asia attend, listen, obey. They study hard and have respect for their teachers. They are challenged in grade school with material American students begin in HS, if at all. There is a reason Seattle and Silicon Valley is filled with Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, Singaporeans and Indians on H1B's. As Bill Gates told Congress it is because American schools are failing.

Rather than continue to invest in mediocre colleges I would rather fix what is not happening years before. If second and third tier schools have a place then they need to discontinue relying on tax payer funding and to determine a market-based price:value construct. These schools churn out grads who are unworthy of the sobriquet. As the adage goes, you can buff a turd only so far...

 

[Tugg Speedman]

It would be great if everyone could get a proper college education but the fact is that there are huge qualitative differences in degrees. And not everyone can or should get one - whether for reasons of financial or intellectual ability. There are huge qualitative differences in college grads and the school listed on the resume is a superb barometer of the quality of the individual behind the paper. 

It is a global economy but I am not convinced that losing thousands of Platteville, IUIPUI, or Sam Houston State grads will hinder American innovation, creativity, and global competitiveness. Personally, rather than continue to churn out mediocre high school graduates who continue on to mediocre colleges I would rather we focus on fixing the problems upstream. because that is where the real issues are resident.

I spent most of my life in Asia. I went to Japanese schools for grade school before attending an international school for 6-8. My kids attended international schools, Japanese grade school, and English Foundation schools. I can tell you from that experience our schools are far, far behind. Japanese students begin algebra in 4th year. American kids get it as Freshmen and even then it is not a core requirement. Kids in Asia communicate crisply and effectively and are conversant in their cultural heritage. Their hard science and maths curricula put us to shame.

Global competitiveness is being won in the classroom in grade school. Kids in Asia attend, listen, obey. They study hard and have respect for their teachers. They are challenged in grade school with material American students begin in HS, if at all. There is a reason Seattle and Silicon Valley is filled with Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, Singaporeans and Indians on H1B's. As Bill Gates told Congress it is because American schools are failing.

Rather than continue to invest in mediocre colleges I would rather fix what is not happening years before. If second and third tier schools have a place then they need to discontinue relying on tax payer funding and to determine a market-based price:value construct. These schools churn out grads who are unworthy of the sobriquet. As the adage goes, you can buff a turd only so far...

+1000

Dumping a bunch of lower tired colleges will force an improvement in high schools. 

[GGGG]

A few thoughts:

**I agree wholeheartedly that there are too many kids at four year schools and that the number of public, comprehensive schools should be decreased.  But IMO that means that you have make sure you have plenty of access at the tech school level.

**Most of the public high school teachers in this country are from the comprehensive public universities.  If you are going to improve K-12 education, this is where you have to start a great deal of that process.

**A lot of these ideas may make sense when you look at the whole of society, but America is a country that gives people multiple chances to succeed.  There are many, many graduates of comprehensive public universities that came to school as first-generation students that didn't have much idea with what to do with life, but it was those experiences at school that started them down that path.  People like that still need access to higher education.

[keefe]

A few thoughts:

**I agree wholeheartedly that there are too many kids at four year schools and that the number of public, comprehensive schools should be decreased.  But IMO that means that you have make sure you have plenty of access at the tech school level.

**Most of the public high school teachers in this country are from the comprehensive public universities.  If you are going to improve K-12 education, this is where you have to start a great deal of that process.

**A lot of these ideas may make sense when you look at the whole of society, but America is a country that gives people multiple chances to succeed.  There are many, many graduates of comprehensive public universities that came to school as first-generation students that didn't have much idea with what to do with life, but it was those experiences at school that started them down that path.  People like that still need access to higher education.

I have long favored something similar to the European O-level/A-level or Realschule/Gymnasium system. Not everyone needs to go to university but there is a need for an attendant technical training track. O-Level/Realschule students begin vocational training far earlier (age 12) and begin full time apprenticeships at 16.

A similar system exists in Asia where students are streamed according to interest and ability. Japanese industry has benefited from skilled technicians who graduate from vocational track schools that still require calculus and physics to graduate; this model has been adopted throughout Asia. Juran commented that a crucial reason his and Demming's models worked so well in the Japanese Kanban system was the academic preparation of the Japanese worker to perform in a post-industrial environment.

As for expanded opportunity, I might suggest that if we had a true vocational track as does the rest of the developed world we could accommodate  everyone with a desire to learn a trade, skill, or vocation. Not everyone needs to attend Cornell's School for Hotel Administration to work in hospitality. Kids could begin internships at 12 then apprentice at 16. Not all coders or developers need to study Computer Engineering at MIT, Cal, or Michigan but they can begin programming at 12.

And the O-Level/Realschule infrastructure could be leveraged into continuing education and Re-Training platforms to accommodate changes in industrial base, technology, or simple change of personal career interest. Today, those post graduation models lack professional standards and vary widely in quality.   

I agree public unis will always produce the bulk of high school teachers but I think we lost something when we went from the Normal Schools to training teachers in what are less focused general education colleges. And a student improperly prepared in high school then educated in a mediocre college will be a sub-standard teacher.

Teacher training in Europe and Asia is materially different and the starting point is that education is a respected profession. Teacher salaries in Japan and Singapore are commensurate with the other professions. Teacher compensation is competitive with general practice physicians in both societies (in part through housing, transportation, and food allowances.) Compare that with the status and pay of teachers in the US and you can see why we there is a material difference. I believe elevating teaching as a profession is a critical component of improving education in this country. Teachers in Singapore spend 8 years in university training before being given a classroom. Competition for placement at the Teaching College of National University of Singapore is keen and teachers have more than a Masters when they are graduated. Teachers are given housing, transport, all-expense paid vacations that double as continuing education, etc...

One could argue that we cannot afford to do this. I will argue that we cannot afford to not do it. Teaching is not seen as a profession in this country. Improve the training and compensate accordingly.

[source?]

It would be great if everyone could get a proper college education but the fact is that there are huge qualitative differences in degrees. And not everyone can or should get one - whether for reasons of financial or intellectual ability. There are huge qualitative differences in college grads and the school listed on the resume is a superb barometer of the quality of the individual behind the paper. 

It is a global economy but I am not convinced that losing thousands of Platteville, IUIPUI, or Sam Houston State grads will hinder American innovation, creativity, and global competitiveness. Personally, rather than continue to churn out mediocre high school graduates who continue on to mediocre colleges I would rather we focus on fixing the problems upstream. because that is where the real issues are resident.

I spent most of my life in Asia. I went to Japanese schools for grade school before attending an international school for 6-8. My kids attended international schools, Japanese grade school, and English Foundation schools. I can tell you from that experience our schools are far, far behind. Japanese students begin algebra in 4th year. American kids get it as Freshmen and even then it is not a core requirement. Kids in Asia communicate crisply and effectively and are conversant in their cultural heritage. Their hard science and maths curricula put us to shame.

Global competitiveness is being won in the classroom in grade school. Kids in Asia attend, listen, obey. They study hard and have respect for their teachers. They are challenged in grade school with material American students begin in HS, if at all. There is a reason Seattle and Silicon Valley is filled with Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, Singaporeans and Indians on H1B's. As Bill Gates told Congress it is because American schools are failing.

Rather than continue to invest in mediocre colleges I would rather fix what is not happening years before. If second and third tier schools have a place then they need to discontinue relying on tax payer funding and to determine a market-based price:value construct. These schools churn out grads who are unworthy of the sobriquet. As the adage goes, you can buff a turd only so far...

 

I agree with 99% of this, but Platteville is a poor example. They have a respected engineering program, as well as decent business and nursing programs. I'm originally from a nearby town and several of my friends have attended/graduated from their engineering school, then proceeded on to very respectable careers. A better example might be the 2 year schools in the UW system. I personally know a guy who graduated high school with 2.5 GPA, scored a 19 on his ACT, and still got into one of those schools. Sadly, due to guaranteed transfer he was able to get into UW-Milwaukee which he proceeded to flunk out of.

[GGGG]

Those two year schools are designed specifically with those types of students in mind.

[keefe]

I agree with 99% of this, but Platteville is a poor example. They have a respected engineering program, as well as decent business and nursing programs. I'm originally from a nearby town and several of my friends have attended/graduated from their engineering school, then proceeded on to very respectable careers. A better example might be the 2 year schools in the UW system. I personally know a guy who graduated high school with 2.5 GPA, scored a 19 on his ACT, and still got into one of those schools. Sadly, due to guaranteed transfer he was able to get into UW-Milwaukee which he proceeded to flunk out of.

I am not that familiar with Platteville other than it is a funny name and it gave us Bo Ryan. One thing I might add is that there are fine students at all schools but, taken as a whole, there are many students who really should not be in university.

The explosion in college seats started in the 60's as part of Johnson's Great Society. Fact is, the notion that everyone must go to college is as bona fide as the efficacy of public housing. (If you need elaboration take a drive through Anacostia and SE DC though not at night...)

[keefe]

Those two year schools are designed specifically with those types of students in mind.

And to our respective points, would not these students be better served honing practical skills in a structured vocational track rather than wasting two years getting a meaningless Associate's Degree in Marketing?

[GGGG]

And to our respective points, would not these students be better served honing practical skills in a structured vocational track rather than wasting two years getting a meaningless Associate's Degree in Marketing?

Very likely yes. 

[keefe]

Power.  Get a lot of people to rely on you for just about everything, and you get what you get. The more folks you get, the more power is accumulated. TJ isn't the only one....the teets for suckling are moist with dollars, it won't be changing anytime soon.  It's a new normal.

I cannot help but laugh aloud every time I see the photo of the Kennedy Camper. Thank God we have the Jim McDermott's, Patty Murray's, and Maria Cantwell's to ensure his rights are served.