MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MuggsyB on April 03, 2024, 07:48:06 PM
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Here's my 8 off the top of my head in no particular order:
Wade
Kolek
Chones
Lucas
Ellis
Thompson
Crowder
Meminger
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How good was Kojis?
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Here's my 8 off the top of my head in no particular order:
Wade
Kolek
Chones
Lucas
Ellis
Thompson
Crowder
Meminger
A bit of recency bias, admittedly, but I think you need Jimmy Butler and Markus Howard on this list as well.
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A bit of recency bias, admittedly, but I think you need Jimmy Butler and Markus Howard on this list as well.
I hoping we can agree on 12 but you may be right.
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The two MU players I remember most as a little tyke were Tony Smith and Damon Key. I'm not sure they're top 12 but I loved those guys.
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The Puerto Rican would like a word with you.
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The Puerto Rican would like a word with you.
Oh. . Ooooops. Definitely missed that one. Ty.
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Here's my 8 off the top of my head in no particular order:
Wade
Kolek
Chones
Lucas
Ellis
Thompson
Crowder
Meminger
No Butch Lee? MU’s only Naismith & AP POY
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No Butch Lee? MU’s only Naismith & AP POY
I whiffed with my 1st 8. Obviously he's there and in the T12. My apologies.
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Jimmy was very good, but he was not an all time great college player. He’s a better pro than he was college player. Someone like Lazar was a better player at Marquette than Jimmy was.
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Jimmy was very good, but he was not an all time great college player. He’s a better pro than he was college player. Someone like Lazar was a better player at Marquette than Jimmy was.
And you're correct with the criteria. So what is our consensus T-12?
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And you're correct with the criteria. So what is our consensus T-12?
I never saw the Al era, so I’m not sure I’m the best person to put together a list like that as I’d be missing some of the best players to ever play at MU.
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I never saw the Al era, so I’m not sure I’m the best person to put together a list like that as I’d be missing some of the best players to ever play at MU.
Nor did I. I'm just rendering an opinion based on what I've heard and seen on tape fron that era.
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In no particular order:
Wade
Kolek
Lee
Ellis
Lucas
Tatum
Walton
Meminger
Kojis
Thompson
Chones
Rivers
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Bo Ellis
Jim chones
Maurice Lucas
George Thompson
Butch lee
Dean Menninger
Markus Howard
Earl Tatum
Jae crowder
Don kojis
Dwayne Wade
Doc rivers
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The two MU players I remember most as a little tyke were Tony Smith and Damon Key. I'm not sure they're top 12 but I loved those guys.
Tony Smith was the one good thing about the Dukiet era having played for all three years. He had a great senior year with KO as coach.
Damon Key, Jim McIlvaine, Robb Logterman, Roney Eford, and Tony Miller all deserve special mention as they helped revive the program and were a lot of fun to watch. That win over Kentucky in 1994 was the last win for the name “Warriors”.
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Thought people considered Doc somewhat of a disappointing college player relative to the hype coming in.
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Thought people considered Doc somewhat of a disappointing college player relative to the hype coming in.
That was my thought, he was fine, but not an all-time great.
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That was my thought, he was fine, but not an all-time great.
That was my thought as well.
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Leaving Markus off these lists is such a bad take.
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How good was Kojis?
Muggsy:
I saw Kojis play many times in the Pros. He was excellent.
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Wasn't Derrick Wilson #12?
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Leaving Markus off these lists is such a bad take.
I'm just asking about a consensus 12. Some of our more knowledgeable and esteemed Scoopers, that were there and remember the Al years, should be prominent in these discussions.
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How did Kojis average 15+ rebs a game at 6'5?
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How did Kojis average 15+ rebs a game at 6'5?
Muggsy:
He had enormous hands and very broad shoulders
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How did Kojis average 15+ rebs a game at 6'5?
Muggsy:
He had enormous hands and very broad shoulders
And he played in the 1950s
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My fandom took off in 2005, so my list picks up from that point. Only 12? haven’t been around for long compared to some, but I found this hard to do.
Jerel/Wesley/Dominic
Lazar/Jimmy
Jae/DJO
Markus
Kolek/Oso/Kam/Stevie
Honorable Mentions: Junior Cadugan, Devante Gardner, Chris Otule, Theo John, Andrew Rowsey
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Here's my 8 off the top of my head in no particular order:
Wade
Kolek
Chones
Lucas
Ellis
Thompson
Crowder
Meminger
Difficult due to how the game changes…Earl Tatum, George Thompson, Lloyd Walton, Bernard Toone, Robert Byrd, Marcus Washington, national POY Butch Lee…even Tony Miller, Tony Smith, Diener, McNeil, Don James, Doc, Markus, Hutch…difficult to put together an all-time list.
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Thompson
Meminger
Chones
Lucas
Lee
Ellis
Wade
Howard
Kolek
Tough to leave out any one of those 9, IMHO. After that, it's a matter of personal preference. I'd probably go with:
Tatum
Crowder
Diener
But I could understand the inclusion of any number of others: Walton, McNeal, Matthews, James, Smith, Hayward, Lackey, Kojis, Smith, etc.
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How did Kojis average 15+ rebs a game at 6'5?
Because he was that good.
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Because he was that good.
This isn't true. It's because it was a completely different game and rebounding then wasn't what it is now. As a sophomore and junior, Kojis averaged 13.0 and 15.4 rebounds per game and didn't rank in the top-10 nationally. As a senior, his 17.1 rebounds were only 6th in the country.
The reason it was such a big deal when Fardaws Aimaq (15.0 rebounds in 2020-21) and Oscar Tshiebwe (15.2 in 2021-22) cracked the 15 rebound per game mark was because it hadn't happened in over 40 years when Monti Davis averaged 16.2 in 1978-79. Kojis couldn't crack the top-5 in the country as a senior with 17.1 rpg, but that number would've been #1 in the nation every year since 1976 when Robert Parrish posted 18.0 for Centenary.
If you're going to believe that the rebounders of the 1950s were somehow inherently superior to more "modern" rebounders like Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Paul Millsap, Kenneth Faried, and Oscar Tshiebwe, among many others, then I have some lovely developmental real estate in south Florida to sell you.
There's certainly an argument for Kojis to be on an all-time 12 and I won't object to anyone making it, but "because he was that good" doesn't really apply to someone who only cracked the top-10 nationally in RPG and never made the top-5.
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This isn't true. It's because it was a completely different game and rebounding then wasn't what it is now. As a sophomore and junior, Kojis averaged 13.0 and 15.4 rebounds per game and didn't rank in the top-10 nationally. As a senior, his 17.1 rebounds were only 6th in the country.
The reason it was such a big deal when Fardaws Aimaq (15.0 rebounds in 2020-21) and Oscar Tshiebwe (15.2 in 2021-22) cracked the 15 rebound per game mark was because it hadn't happened in over 40 years when Monti Davis averaged 16.2 in 1978-79. Kojis couldn't crack the top-5 in the country as a senior with 17.1 rpg, but that number would've been #1 in the nation every year since 1976 when Robert Parrish posted 18.0 for Centenary.
If you're going to believe that the rebounders of the 1950s were somehow inherently superior to more "modern" rebounders like Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Paul Millsap, Kenneth Faried, and Oscar Tshiebwe, among many others, then I have some lovely developmental real estate in south Florida to sell you.
There's certainly an argument for Kojis to be on an all-time 12 and I won't object to anyone making it, but "because he was that good" doesn't really apply to someone who only cracked the top-10 nationally in RPG and never made the top-5.
Listen, basketball was pure as snow back then. A lot of guys playing it the right way
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My all-time 12
Kojis - played the right way
Diener - son of a coach, you could tell
Kolek - gym rat
Novak - great at neighborhood watch
Rosenberger - high IQ player
Wardle - great attitude
Hauser - either one, leadership unmatched
McIlvaine - farmer
Pieper - gym rat
Crawford - see Pieper
Allie - coaches son and gym rat
Jake Thomas - pure shooter
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Kojis
Thompson
Meminger
Chones
Ellis
Lucas
Lee
Hayward
Crowder
Howard
Kolek
Wade
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My all-time 12
Kojis - played the right way
Diener - son of a coach, you could tell
Kolek - gym rat
Novak - great at neighborhood watch
Rosenberger - high IQ player
Wardle - great attitude
Hauser - either one, leadership unmatched
McIlvaine - farmer
Pieper - gym rat
Crawford - see Pieper
Allie - coaches son and gym rat
Jake Thomas - pure shooter
No Rice Lakers?
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Terry Rand > Kojis
Diener statistically > Kolek > Meminger. And it's not really even close.
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No Rice Lakers?
Just missed the cut. But definitely could walk on with Carlino and Heldt
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Difficult due to how the game changes…Earl Tatum, George Thompson, Lloyd Walton, Bernard Toone, Robert Byrd, Marcus Washington, national POY Butch Lee…even Tony Miller, Tony Smith, Diener, McNeil, Don James, Doc, Markus, Hutch…difficult to put together an all-time list.
I think Muggsy’s 8 and your list make up an excellent list of nominees from which 12 could be picked.It covers most of the best players of their eras, including several who are IMHO clearly not top 12.
I will only go back as far as players I actually saw, so that eliminates Kojis. Muggsy, and others, if you’ve never done it you should go to You Tube and find some video of basketball in the late 50’s and early 60’s. It won’t take long to realize why stats from that era cannot be compared to today. Bob Cousy was considered a wizard with the ball, and when you see the clips now he looks like an old guy playing at the YMCA.
On the MU list I would be biased in favor of players who played at least 3 years for MU, with a special exception for Wade because of how outstanding he was in his two years. I have a tougher time with Crowder and Chones, though Chones’ situation was unique.
My list in chronological order would start with:
Thompson
Meminger
Lucas
Tatum
Ellis
Lee
Smith
Wade
It gets harder from there but it’s hard for me to leave out the high scorers who played for 4 years like McNeal and Howard.
I would also include Kolek even though there might be some recency bias, but he is one of my all time favorite MU players on some favorite teams, and two years of AA honors speak for themselves.
So my list includes only 11 and Chones, Rivers, Diener, and James would be OK for my 12th.
Based on some of the comments on the board this last week, I’m a little surprised anyone mentions any players that didn’t play in a team that went to the Final Four. I’m told nobody remembers seasons that don’t end in a Final Four, but apparently I’m not the only “nobody”.
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I think Muggsy’s 8 and your list make up an excellent list of nominees from which 12 could be picked.It covers most of the best players of their eras, including several who are IMHO clearly not top 12.
I will only go back as far as players I actually saw, so that eliminates Kojis. Muggsy, and others, if you’ve never done it you should go to You Tube and find some video of basketball in the late 50’s and early 60’s. It won’t take long to realize why stats from that era cannot be compared to today. Bob Cousy was considered a wizard with the ball, and when you see the clips now he looks like an old guy playing at the YMCA.
On the MU list I would be biased in favor of players who played at least 3 years for MU, with a special exception for Wade because of how outstanding he was in his two years. I have a tougher time with Crowder and Chones, though Chones’ situation was unique.
My list in chronological order would start with:
Thompson
Meminger
Lucas
Tatum
Ellis
Lee
Smith
Wade
It gets harder from there but it’s hard for me to leave out the high scorers who played for 4 years like McNeal and Howard.
I would also include Kolek even though there might be some recency bias, but he is one of my all time favorite MU players on some favorite teams, and two years of AA honors speak for themselves.
So my list includes only 11 and Chones, Rivers, Diener, and James would be OK for my 12th.
Based on some of the comments on the board this last week, I’m a little surprised anyone mentions any players that didn’t play in a team that went to the Final Four. I’m told nobody remembers seasons that don’t end in a Final Four, but apparently I’m not the only “nobody”.
Maybe I should have put a caveat on this but I'm looking for the 12 best players while they were shredding people at MU. Ergo, guys like Wade and Chones would assumedly be automatic members despite their truncated careers.
As far as Kojis I would just say that you have to compare his game to those from his era.
The idea of Kolek not being a consensus top 8 really surprises me. Stats also don't really measure his overall impact. The stat that matters most is wins. As Danny Hurley stated "MU without Tyko is like the Chiefs without Mahomes." He's the best/most impactful player I have seen at MU since Wade and I don't think it's particularly close.
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Diener statistically > Kolek > Meminger. And it's not really even close.
Kolek's last two years were better than any year Diener had at MU.
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My all-time 12
Kojis - played the right way
Diener - son of a coach, you could tell
Kolek - gym rat
Novak - great at neighborhood watch
Rosenberger - high IQ player
Wardle - great attitude
Hauser - either one, leadership unmatched
McIlvaine - farmer
Pieper - gym rat
Crawford - see Pieper
Allie - coaches son and gym rat
Jake Thomas - pure shooter
Disappointed by the lack of sneaky athleticism with this squad.
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Kolek's last two years were better than any year Diener had at MU.
Don't know where you get your advanced statistics from, Fluffy, but it's not close that Diener was better. Which is why I used the word "statistically" to compare between eras, injuries, rule changes and quality of the teams.
Eye test may be different and the quality of the team was better for TKo, but Travis was outstanding his junior and senior years on Orating, Assist%, TO %, 3% on much, much higher usage. Was a great trey shooter. Take senior year: 126.6 Orating, 53.3 Assist Rate, 15.6 TO Rate, on 30.5 usage. Junior year was just slightly below that.
And that's not to diminish Tyler's amazing two years but to point out how underestimated Travis was, especially with no supporting cast. More so, this is about all time so it's about body of work and so dismissing mediocre seasons is not a legitimate criteria (see Tony Smith as well).
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Nevermind. Shouldn't have engaged in these meaningless debates.
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Super recency bias for me for sure.....but grew up in Portland OR, 1977 was an awesome year!! I enrolled @ MU in Sept. 1993 so started as a Warrior :), was GOLD for a second :o and finished as an Eagle :(
Lucas
Ellis
Lee
Thompson
McIIvaine
Miller
Wade
Butler
Novak
Diener
Howard
Kolek
Hon Mention - Oso, Hauser, Frozena
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Disappointed by the lack of sneaky athleticism with this squad.
Need Ellensons for that.
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Super recency bias for me for sure.....but grew up in Portland OR, 1977 was an awesome year!! I enrolled @ MU in Sept. 1993 so started as a Warrior :), was GOLD for a second :o and finished as an Eagle :(
Lucas
Ellis
Lee
Thompson
McIIvaine
Miller
Wade
Butler
Novak
Diener
Howard
Kolek
Hon Mention - Oso, Hauser, Frozena
Meminger
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Warrior Code at the rec has to at least be honorable mention
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Super recency bias for me for sure.....but grew up in Portland OR, 1977 was an awesome year!! I enrolled @ MU in Sept. 1993 so started as a Warrior :), was GOLD for a second :o and finished as an Eagle :(
Lucas
Ellis
Lee
Thompson
McIIvaine
Miller
Wade
Butler
Novak
Diener
Howard
Kolek
Hon Mention - Oso, Hauser, Frozena
Bart Miller is a bold choice!
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Bart Miller is a bold choice!
So was Oliver Lee.
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I’m going in chronological order (I think, I’m a 2010 grad). Also, I’m going for the best 12 man team, not necessarily the best 12:
George Thompson
Dean Meminger
Jim Chones
Earl Tatum
Mo Lucas
Bo Ellis
Butch Lee
D Wade
Novak (need shooting)
Jerel
Markus
Kolek
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So was Oliver Lee.
hahaha!!
y'all know I'm talking Big Dog Tony Miller & Butch Lee.....I'm old! ;)
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More Mandy Johnson, less Doc Rivers. Rivers was a great pro and certainly a wonderful representative of the University, but he was decidedly uneven at MU. IMO he should not be up in the rafters. Not even close.
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Disappointed by the lack of sneaky athleticism with this squad.
And only ONE Hauser? WTF?
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More Mandy Johnson, less Doc Rivers. Rivers was a great pro and certainly a wonderful representative of the University, but he was decidedly uneven at MU. IMO he should not be up in the rafters. Not even close.
Mandy Johnson? Good lord I liked the guy, but he's not all time top 12.
(I agree that Doc isn't either BTW)
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Terry Rand > Kojis
Diener statistically > Kolek > Meminger. And it's not really even close.
Sure, but Travis put up numbers playing in Conference USA - the 9th best conference and 8th best conferences his Senior and Junior years, respectively. Further, his teams finished 98 and 92 in KenPom during those years.
Here's a controversial take: Diener would be a bench player on each of our teams these last two years. The game is SO much more phyiscal now than at that time, Travis would have a hard time being anything more than a 6th/7th man in the current high major landscape
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Sure, but Travis put up numbers playing in Conference USA - the 9th best conference and 8th best conferences his Senior and Junior years, respectively. Further, his teams finished 98 and 92 in KenPom during those years.
Here's a controversial take: Diener would be a bench player on each of our teams these last two years. The game is SO much more phyiscal now than at that time, Travis would have a hard time being anything more than a 6th/7th man in the current high major landscape
Yeah, that's a WILD take. Diener was as tough as they come. Diener was tough enough to make millions in the NBA, including a year where he averaged 7 points per game and played 21 minutes per game when NBA defenses were allowed to be much more physical than they are now. He'd be JUST fine in today's college game, and would've been a sure fire starter the last 2 years. I love Stevie and Kam, but give me Diener and Kolek both on the court together any day of the week.
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Yeah, Travis would be absolutely fine in college basketball today. It's insane to think otherwise.
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Sure, but Travis put up numbers playing in Conference USA - the 9th best conference and 8th best conferences his Senior and Junior years, respectively. Further, his teams finished 98 and 92 in KenPom during those years.
Here's a controversial take: Diener would be a bench player on each of our teams these last two years. The game is SO much more phyiscal now than at that time, Travis would have a hard time being anything more than a 6th/7th man in the current high major landscape
Travis Diener played five seasons in the NBA, but couldn't have handled the physicality of today's college basketball?
Huh.
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Yeah, that's a WILD take. Diener was as tough as they come. Diener was tough enough to make millions in the NBA, including a year where he averaged 7 points per game and played 21 minutes per game when NBA defenses were allowed to be much more physical than they are now. He'd be JUST fine in today's college game, and would've been a sure fire starter the last 2 years. I love Stevie and Kam, but give me Diener and Kolek both on the court together any day of the week.
You, Sultan and Pak are well justified in your opinions on my controversial take. It is fun to think about a Diener/Kolek pairing on the floor together. I do tend to think, however, that the physical strength of basketbal players now, 20 years later since Diener played - would challenge him a good deal. The kid was 170 lbs soaking wet at MU. He'd get abused on defense these days.
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And he played in the 1950s
Hard to ignore that back then the amount of rebounds in a game was near 100. Today, those rebounds are down to about 65 per game.
If using that ratio, 12 rebounds back then, would be close to 8 per game in todays game.
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My all-time 12
Kojis - played the right way
Diener - son of a coach, you could tell
Kolek - gym rat
Novak - great at neighborhood watch
Rosenberger - high IQ player
Wardle - great attitude
Hauser - either one, leadership unmatched
McIlvaine - farmer
Pieper - gym rat
Crawford - see Pieper
Allie - coaches son and gym rat
Jake Thomas - pure shooter
Bill Neary
Gary Rosenberger
Jimmy Boylan
Jimmy Burke
Jackie Burke
Gary Brell
Brian Brunkhorst
Bob Wolf
Jeff Sewell
Brad Luchini
Ron Rahn
Hughie McMahon
Jim Dudley
Dave Delsman
Jerry Holman
Marc Marotta
Cam Marotta
Dan Fitzgerald
Terrell Schlundt
Dean Marquette
Craig Butrym
Chris Grimm
Mike Kinsella
Brian Barone
Ryan Amoroso
Don Smolinski
Vic Lazzeretti
Tom Copa
Mike Flory
Mark Anglavar
Robb Logterman
Jay Zulauf
Richard Shaw
Jarrod Lovette
Joe Nethen
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Bill Neary
Gary Rosenberger
Jimmy Boylan
Jimmy Burke
Jackie Burke
Gary Brell
Brian Brunkhorst
Bob Wolf
Jeff Sewell
Brad Luchini
Ron Rahn
Hughie McMahon
Jim Dudley
Dave Delsman
Jerry Holman
Marc Marotta
Cam Marotta
Dan Fitzgerald
Terrell Schlundt
Dean Marquette
Craig Butrym
Chris Grimm
Mike Kinsella
Brian Barone
Ryan Amoroso
Don Smolinski
Vic Lazzeretti
Tom Copa
Mike Flory
Mark Anglavar
Robb Logterman
Jay Zulauf
Richard Shaw
Jarrod Lovette
Joe Nethen
Solid choices
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Hey Lenny
No Matt Carlino?
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Hey Lenny
No Matt Carlino?
Him and Katin Reinhardt were classic gym rats
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No Rod Grosse?
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Roman Mueller
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Anthony Pieper
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Rick Campbell
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Jon Luerck
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Mike Kinsella
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Greg Clausen
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Hey Lenny
No Matt Carlino?
One year rental, not an all timer.
But the guy could shoot it and he came from a great family!
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Pat Foley.
Mike Davis.
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Andrew Rousey
Chris Crawford
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John Glaser
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tower
Twice I had a chance to break 70 playing golf with Pat Foley going into #18 and made a double and triple. Please scratch him from the list. That said, he is n your neck of the woods and still tees it up.
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Stop after 17.
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John Glaser
Dime a dozen.
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Roman Mueller
Biggest sleeper since Rip Van Winkle
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Terry Rand > Kojis
Diener statistically > Kolek > Meminger. And it's not really even close.
Here's a stat for you. Meminger's record at Marquette:
78-9
Record at home: 46-0.
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Here's a stat for you. Meminger's record at Marquette:
78-9
Record at home: 46-0.
You have to remember that that was a completely different era.
The top 10 teams didn’t lose many games and MU did not have as difficult a schedule as they have now in a major conference and much more parity.
The final poll in 1971 ( before NCAA Tournament
UCLA 25-1
Marquette 27-0
Penn 27-0
Kansas 25-1
USC 24-2
South Carolina 23-4
Western Kentucky 21-5
Kentucky 22-4
Fordham 25-2
Ohio State 19-5
Only24 total losses for the top 10.
This year that total was 71 before the conference tournaments.
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tower
Twice I had a chance to break 70 playing golf with Pat Foley going into #18 and made a double and triple. Please scratch him from the list. That said, he is n your neck of the woods and still tees it up.
He’s in my neck of the woods, Birmingham, MI. He’s a member at Oakland Hills. I see him out at the bars every once in a while and we always talk MU hoops
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swoopem
Pat is great guy. Enjoyed spending time with him on the golf course and in bars. First met him at the golf course when his family moved to MKE when he was in high school.
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The Paul Newman slander on this board is actionable.
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The Paul Newman slander on this board is actionable.
I like his pasta sauces.
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The Paul Newman slander on this board is actionable.
When the era of porn staches meant something...
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQDpjgl615wb6EFyrLbxZqbuB-ag_2dSMhrBrnK8JUkRQ&s)
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I've been quiet on this thread for four takes. Most of the recommendations have been very good. Some have been so off as to be ridiculous. Having seen most of these guys play, I'll offer this list as my 12 best ever:
Don Kojis
George Thompson
Dean Meminger
Jim Chones
Maurice Lucas
Butch Lee
Bo Ellis
Dwyane Wade
Wes Matthews
Jae Crowder
Jeral McNeal
Tyler Kolek
Every one of these guys was transformative to the program. Jim Chones and DWade were by far the two best players ever to wear an MU uniform. Butch and Bo won a national title for us. George Thompson started the line of great players and for years was our leading scorer. He and Dean Meminger were instrumental in getting us back to the NCAAs and keeping us there. Maurice got us to an NCAA championship game. Wes, Jae and Jeral were cornerstones of the Buzz years of excellence and Tyler got us where we are today.
Honorable Mentions:
Terry Rand
Bob Lackey
Larry McNeill
Earl Tatum
Lloyd Walton
Jerome Whitehead
Bernard Toone
Sam Worthen
Oliver Lee
Jim McIllivane
Steve Novak
Scott Merritt
Travis Diener
Sam Hauser
Of this group, I have a special place in my basketball heart for Bob Lackey. A colorful personality and a tough, no-holds barred basketball player that represented what Marquette was about in his time. Earl, Lloyd and Jerome probably would be on almost any other program's 12 best. Earl and Lloyd got us close and Jerome was instrumental in getting us to the mountaintop (see UNCC game, March 25, 1977). Terry Rand was my Dad's age and part of MU's first NCAA tournament team.
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To list 26 players and not include Markus Howard is a travesty.
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At this point, it's just an unserious troll. The only reason that gets posted is for the reactions.
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To list 26 players and not include Markus Howard is a travesty.
Afraid not. I knew that was coming.
Not a troll. I think Markus was all about statistics and not about team. I'm a Marquette fan. not a Markus fan.
We're not LSU!
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Afraid not. I knew that was coming.
Not a troll. I think Markus was all about statistics and not about team. I'm a Marquette fan. not a Markus fan.
We're not LSU!
Pretty hard to come up with a best ever list if you're going to disregard statistics. Maybe just include everyone on the national championship team and be done with it.
The fact is that Markus was our all time leading scorer by a huge margin, one of the best 3 point shooters in college basketball history, stayed with the team for 4 years and was a gold standard for how he represented our program every day. Sure, maybe he didn't have any signature deep runs in the tournament (more due to Wojo and covid in my view) and had some deficiencies, but he was a truly elite player in our history.
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All time leading scorer in the Big East.
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Markus played the way he was coached to.
The narrative about him only caring about numbers is horsesh*t.
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Markus would have benefited a lot from a better coach and overall defensive team. Not in your top 26 brother dgies? I find this shocking.
Did you also forger about Jimmy Butler? Tony Smith? Lazar?
Scott Merrit brother dgies?? Are you alright?
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Markus would have benefited a lot from a better coach and overall defensive team. Not in your top 26 brother dgies? I find this shocking.
Oh it’s not shocking. Hilariously wrong? Yes. Shocking? No.
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Pretty hard to come up with a best ever list if you're going to disregard statistics. Maybe just include everyone on the national championship team and be done with it.
The fact is that Markus was our all time leading scorer by a huge margin, one of the best 3 point shooters in college basketball history, stayed with the team for 4 years and was a gold standard for how he represented our program every day. Sure, maybe he didn't have any signature deep runs in the tournament (more due to Wojo and covid in my view) and had some deficiencies, but he was a truly elite player in our history.
On the all time scoring list, if you take out players who played at low-major and players who played in vastly different eras (admittedly big IFs) Markus is behind only Doug McDermott, Tyler Hansbrough, Allan Houston, and JJ Redick.
He is absolutely one of the top 10 greatest scorers in modern major college basketball history, so to exclude him from the top 26 players to ever play at Marquette is absurd.
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Oh it’s not shocking. Hilariously wrong? Yes. Shocking? No.
Why don't you let me determine my own feelings Fluffy. Is that too much to ask?
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Why don't you let me determine my own feelings Fluffy. Is that too much to ask?
Ditto.
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Why don't you let me determine my own feelings Fluffy. Is that too much to ask?
Let Fluffy determine his own feelings. Is that too much to ask?
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Let Fluffy determine his own feelings. Is that too much to ask?
Fine.
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On the all time scoring list, if you take out players who played at low-major and players who played in vastly different eras (admittedly big IFs) Markus is behind only Doug McDermott, Tyler Hansbrough, Allan Houston, and JJ Redick.
He is absolutely one of the top 10 greatest scorers in modern major college basketball history, so to exclude him from the top 26 players to ever play at Marquette is absurd.
Would have passed Redick if there would have been an NCAA tourney his senior year (8 points behind) and could have caught Houston (40 behind),
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All time leading scorer in the Big East.
Both in conference games, and overall.
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Markus Howard assist rate as a junior was 27.2 and 5th in the Big East. As a senior, his assist rate was 26.2 and 4th best in the Big East.
It was 18 his sophomore year. So after Rowsey left, he increased his assist rate by nearly 10 while being the primary scorer, an all-time scorer.
If you want to blame the coach and roster makeup, you’ll be right. If you want to blame the player and call him selfish, you’d be wrong and don’t know ball.
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I was NEVER a Howard fan and admitted that my lack of fandom was because of my lack of respect for Wojo. I 100% blamed every kid he recruited the last several years and should have taken my anger out more on Wojo. That said, I could not look myself in the mirror and not admit Howard is a top twenty MU player. I think he is low on the list, but definitely on my top twenty list.
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I'm going to start with a question:
How many of you who are/were Green Bay Packers fans switched to the New York Jets because Aaron Rodgers was traded? Or the Vikings because that's where Bret Favre ended his career. Suffice to say, very few of you. You are Packers fans!
That's how I view Marquette.
I'm a Marquette fan and while I really enjoy certain players, I appreciate them because of what they did for Marquette. Not because of their personal statistics. Over the years, we've had guys who probably could shoot as well as Markus. But they subjugated their individual talent so that the combination of the whole was far better than the parts. When that happens, like 2024, the team makes the tournament and has memories.
Markus was a great shooter, a good off-guard and probably a great human being (probably only because I never met him personally). He was a crappy defender who probably could barely defend me. When he was at Marquette, we made the NCAA one time and we were wiped off the floor by a mid-major team that we would have mauled just a generation prior.
Some of you blame coaching, specifically, Coach Wojo. But I look at the floor leadership of Tyler or Oso, how they pick their teammates up or scold their teammates when there is a need. The floor leadership is two ways -- Tyler and Oso assert themselves and their teammates thrive on Tyler and Oso's guidance. How many times have we seen Tyler, for instance, wave players around, move them and set them up? How many times did Tyler forsake a shot and pass instead, for the good of the team? Some of you, perhaps, saw things I didn't but I really don't ever recall Markus being a team player. The lack of floor leadership and no sense of team during the Markus era was one of the reasons why the best team Coach Wojo had broke up -- and one of the big reasons why Coach Wojo was fired.
Markus simply was not the floor leader that made Marquette better and you can't blame Coach Wojo totally for that.
Some of you have ridiculed me for my cryptic reference to LSU and Pete Maravich. Like Markus, Maravich was a greater player that I saw frequently growing up. But LSU at the time had a very crappy basketball program, no tradition of winning and was fortunate that Daddy brought sonny boy to Baton Rouge. Unlike LSU, we have an expectation at Marquette of winning, making the tournament and contending for national titles. If we didn't, Coach Wojo would still be our coach and Markus not only would be on my list but might supplant DWade as the best player ever.
I hope nobody ever challenges Markus' scoring records. Otherwise, that probably means we have a one-dimensional basketball team that, if we schedule enough cupcakes, might be a .500 team. I don't want to go back to where we were just four short years ago and I certainly don't want to honor it. If the best thing I can say about a Marquette team is we had a great scorer, then I'm probably going to puke.
By the way, Bart Starr was the greatest Packers quarterback ever! His five world championships speaks to his greatness. Bret Favre, Aaron Rodgers and even Jordan Love can only dream of accomplishing what Mr. Starr did.
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I'm going to start with a question:
How many of you who are/were Green Bay Packers fans switched to the New York Jets because Aaron Rodgers was traded? Or the Vikings because that's where Bret Favre ended his career. Suffice to say, very few of you. You are Packers fans!
That's how I view Marquette.
I'm a Marquette fan and while I really enjoy certain players, I appreciate them because of what they did for Marquette. Not because of their personal statistics. Over the years, we've had guys who probably could shoot as well as Markus. But they subjugated their individual talent so that the combination of the whole was far better than the parts. When that happens, like 2024, the team makes the tournament and has memories.
Markus was a great shooter, a good off-guard and probably a great human being (probably only because I never met him personally). He was a crappy defender who probably could barely defend me. When he was at Marquette, we made the NCAA one time and we were wiped off the floor by a mid-major team that we would have mauled just a generation prior.
Some of you blame coaching, specifically, Coach Wojo. But I look at the floor leadership of Tyler or Oso, how they pick their teammates up or scold their teammates when there is a need. The floor leadership is two ways -- Tyler and Oso assert themselves and their teammates thrive on Tyler and Oso's guidance. How many times have we seen Tyler, for instance, wave players around, move them and set them up? How many times did Tyler forsake a shot and pass instead, for the good of the team? Some of you, perhaps, saw things I didn't but I really don't ever recall Markus being a team player. The lack of floor leadership and no sense of team during the Markus era was one of the reasons why the best team Coach Wojo had broke up -- and one of the big reasons why Coach Wojo was fired.
Markus simply was not the floor leader that made Marquette better and you can't blame Coach Wojo totally for that.
Some of you have ridiculed me for my cryptic reference to LSU and Pete Maravich. Like Markus, Maravich was a greater player that I saw frequently growing up. But LSU at the time had a very crappy basketball program, no tradition of winning and was fortunate that Daddy brought sonny boy to Baton Rouge. Unlike LSU, we have an expectation at Marquette of winning, making the tournament and contending for national titles. If we didn't, Coach Wojo would still be our coach and Markus not only would be on my list but might supplant DWade as the best player ever.
I hope nobody ever challenges Markus' scoring records. Otherwise, that probably means we have a one-dimensional basketball team that, if we schedule enough cupcakes, might be a .500 team. I don't want to go back to where we were just four short years ago and I certainly don't want to honor it. If the best thing I can say about a Marquette team is we had a great scorer, then I'm probably going to puke.
By the way, Bart Starr was the greatest Packers quarterback ever! His five world championships speaks to his greatness. Bret Favre, Aaron Rodgers and even Jordan Love can only dream of accomplishing what Mr. Starr did.
My eyes rolled out of my head
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To list 26 players and not include Markus Howard is a travesty.
Ha! Thought the same thing. Plus he threw in the guy that blew up a potential deep tournament run team by quitting right at the end of his list. Quitters greater than scorers. Well done! Great troll.
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My eyes rolled out of my head
I can give you the name of some good doctors!
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Bo Ellis
Jim chones
Maurice Lucas
George Thompson
Butch lee
Dean Menninger
Markus Howard
Earl Tatum
Jae crowder
Don kojis
Dwayne Wade
Doc rivers
Jereal McNeal for Doc Rivers.
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This thread has taught me that it’s ok to feel things
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Afraid not. I knew that was coming.
Not a troll. I think Markus was all about statistics and not about team. I'm a Marquette fan. not a Markus fan.
We're not LSU!
Sure. Oliver Lee’s contribution to Marquette basketball history can’t be ignored.
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I'm going to start with a question:
How many of you who are/were Green Bay Packers fans switched to the New York Jets because Aaron Rodgers was traded? Or the Vikings because that's where Bret Favre ended his career. Suffice to say, very few of you. You are Packers fans!
That's how I view Marquette.
I'm a Marquette fan and while I really enjoy certain players, I appreciate them because of what they did for Marquette. Not because of their personal statistics. Over the years, we've had guys who probably could shoot as well as Markus. But they subjugated their individual talent so that the combination of the whole was far better than the parts. When that happens, like 2024, the team makes the tournament and has memories.
Markus was a great shooter, a good off-guard and probably a great human being (probably only because I never met him personally). He was a crappy defender who probably could barely defend me. When he was at Marquette, we made the NCAA one time and we were wiped off the floor by a mid-major team that we would have mauled just a generation prior.
Some of you blame coaching, specifically, Coach Wojo. But I look at the floor leadership of Tyler or Oso, how they pick their teammates up or scold their teammates when there is a need. The floor leadership is two ways -- Tyler and Oso assert themselves and their teammates thrive on Tyler and Oso's guidance. How many times have we seen Tyler, for instance, wave players around, move them and set them up? How many times did Tyler forsake a shot and pass instead, for the good of the team? Some of you, perhaps, saw things I didn't but I really don't ever recall Markus being a team player. The lack of floor leadership and no sense of team during the Markus era was one of the reasons why the best team Coach Wojo had broke up -- and one of the big reasons why Coach Wojo was fired.
Markus simply was not the floor leader that made Marquette better and you can't blame Coach Wojo totally for that.
Some of you have ridiculed me for my cryptic reference to LSU and Pete Maravich. Like Markus, Maravich was a greater player that I saw frequently growing up. But LSU at the time had a very crappy basketball program, no tradition of winning and was fortunate that Daddy brought sonny boy to Baton Rouge. Unlike LSU, we have an expectation at Marquette of winning, making the tournament and contending for national titles. If we didn't, Coach Wojo would still be our coach and Markus not only would be on my list but might supplant DWade as the best player ever.
I hope nobody ever challenges Markus' scoring records. Otherwise, that probably means we have a one-dimensional basketball team that, if we schedule enough cupcakes, might be a .500 team. I don't want to go back to where we were just four short years ago and I certainly don't want to honor it. If the best thing I can say about a Marquette team is we had a great scorer, then I'm probably going to puke.
By the way, Bart Starr was the greatest Packers quarterback ever! His five world championships speaks to his greatness. Bret Favre, Aaron Rodgers and even Jordan Love can only dream of accomplishing what Mr. Starr did.
Certainly a candidate for the top 26 dumbest posts... It's okay, I can feel this way.
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Why 12 and not 13? Even our all-time 12 is a scholarship short.
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Dgies, I feel like we did not watch the same games.
There are players that I never warmed to.
Merritt. Gardner. Joey. Jajuan Johnson. Mayo. Morsell. I would never diminish what they accomplished at MU, if they had. So, I get it. I just completely disagree with it.
Markus is an all-time great scorer in Big East and NCAA history. There is no way I could ever let a personal bias keep me from appreciating those accomplishments. But, this IS scoop. And you are not alone.
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Markus would’ve helped against NC State. No way we go 4 for 31 from 3 with Markus in the lineup.
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Afraid not. I knew that was coming.
Not a troll. I think Markus was all about statistics and not about team. I'm a Marquette fan. not a Markus fan.
We're not LSU!
Not trolling, but I knew this was coming and will continue winding people up. ::) ::) ::)
You're literally describing your behavior as trolling as you try to deny you are trolling.
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Over the years, we've had guys who probably could shoot as well as Markus.
Narrator: we have not
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Steve Novak is the great shooter in MU history and Howard is the greatest scorer. IMO, we can watch MU for a long time and never see a better shooter than Novak.
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I'm going to start with a question:
How many of you who are/were Green Bay Packers fans switched to the New York Jets because Aaron Rodgers was traded? Or the Vikings because that's where Bret Favre ended his career. Suffice to say, very few of you. You are Packers fans!
That's how I view Marquette.
I'm a Marquette fan and while I really enjoy certain players, I appreciate them because of what they did for Marquette. Not because of their personal statistics. Over the years, we've had guys who probably could shoot as well as Markus. But they subjugated their individual talent so that the combination of the whole was far better than the parts. When that happens, like 2024, the team makes the tournament and has memories.
Markus was a great shooter, a good off-guard and probably a great human being (probably only because I never met him personally). He was a crappy defender who probably could barely defend me. When he was at Marquette, we made the NCAA one time and we were wiped off the floor by a mid-major team that we would have mauled just a generation prior.
Some of you blame coaching, specifically, Coach Wojo. But I look at the floor leadership of Tyler or Oso, how they pick their teammates up or scold their teammates when there is a need. The floor leadership is two ways -- Tyler and Oso assert themselves and their teammates thrive on Tyler and Oso's guidance. How many times have we seen Tyler, for instance, wave players around, move them and set them up? How many times did Tyler forsake a shot and pass instead, for the good of the team? Some of you, perhaps, saw things I didn't but I really don't ever recall Markus being a team player. The lack of floor leadership and no sense of team during the Markus era was one of the reasons why the best team Coach Wojo had broke up -- and one of the big reasons why Coach Wojo was fired.
Markus simply was not the floor leader that made Marquette better and you can't blame Coach Wojo totally for that.
Some of you have ridiculed me for my cryptic reference to LSU and Pete Maravich. Like Markus, Maravich was a greater player that I saw frequently growing up. But LSU at the time had a very crappy basketball program, no tradition of winning and was fortunate that Daddy brought sonny boy to Baton Rouge. Unlike LSU, we have an expectation at Marquette of winning, making the tournament and contending for national titles. If we didn't, Coach Wojo would still be our coach and Markus not only would be on my list but might supplant DWade as the best player ever.
I hope nobody ever challenges Markus' scoring records. Otherwise, that probably means we have a one-dimensional basketball team that, if we schedule enough cupcakes, might be a .500 team. I don't want to go back to where we were just four short years ago and I certainly don't want to honor it. If the best thing I can say about a Marquette team is we had a great scorer, then I'm probably going to puke.
By the way, Bart Starr was the greatest Packers quarterback ever! His five world championships speaks to his greatness. Bret Favre, Aaron Rodgers and even Jordan Love can only dream of accomplishing what Mr. Starr did.
This is really dumb.
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Markus Howard assist rate as a junior was 27.2 and 5th in the Big East. As a senior, his assist rate was 26.2 and 4th best in the Big East.
It was 18 his sophomore year. So after Rowsey left, he increased his assist rate by nearly 10 while being the primary scorer, an all-time scorer.
If you want to blame the coach and roster makeup, you’ll be right. If you want to blame the player and call him selfish, you’d be wrong and don’t know ball.
Wasn’t his usage by far #1 in the Big East too? When the ball is always in your hands until you shoot it or pass it to somebody who then has to you’ll get numbers.
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Wasn’t his usage by far #1 in the Big East too? When the ball is always in your hands until you shoot it or pass it to somebody who then has to you’ll get numbers.
He was the primary ball handler and best offensive threat on those teams. He’d have been an even better player if he had played with a legit PG his last two years. Even without, he was a two-time All American.
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Wasn’t his usage by far #1 in the Big East too? When the ball is always in your hands until you shoot it or pass it to somebody who then has to you’ll get numbers.
It was, and he still posted 110 & 113 Offensive ratings. No one in the country could do what Markus did at the insane efficiency level he did it at.
Yes, high usage players will score. See Myles Powell. But it is rare to have a usage as high as Howard's while maintaining his efficiency level.
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Steve Novak is the great shooter in MU history and Howard is the greatest scorer. IMO, we can watch MU for a long time and never see a better shooter than Novak.
I will grant you that Novak is in the same league as Howard standing still. Howard could shoot off of all kinds of motion.
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Yes. Markus was a generational talent.
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Thrillho
Thanks for granting me that Novak was “in the same league” as a Howard. That said, I think you missed that I said Novak is the best shooter ever to wear an MU uniform. There is no comparison or discussion on the topic.
There are few things that are 99% accurate in discussion of players or skills. Jim Mac is the greatest shot blocker ever, Wade is the greatest player, Novak is the greatest shooter and Howard is the greatest scorer in school history.
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Thrillho
Thanks for granting me that Novak was “in the same league” as a Howard. That said, I think you missed that I said Novak is the best shooter ever to wear an MU uniform. There is no comparison or discussion on the topic.
There are few things that are 99% accurate in discussion of players or skills. Jim Mac is the greatest shot blocker ever, Wade is the greatest player, Novak is the greatest shooter and Howard is the greatest scorer in school history.
When Markus was a purely spot up shooter (freshman year), he shot 54% from 3. One could argue he was the best shooter in MU history.Both were incredible.
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You have to remember that that was a completely different era.
The top 10 teams didn’t lose many games and MU did not have as difficult a schedule as they have now in a major conference and much more parity.
The final poll in 1971 ( before NCAA Tournament
UCLA 25-1
Marquette 27-0
Penn 27-0
Kansas 25-1
USC 24-2
South Carolina 23-4
Western Kentucky 21-5
Kentucky 22-4
Fordham 25-2
Ohio State 19-5
Only24 total losses for the top 10.
This year that total was 71 before the conference tournaments.
I was responding to "Diener statistically > Kolek > Meminger. And it's not really even close."
Come on !
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Novak was elite. He couldn’t really create his own shot until sr year. I remember being very pleased to see him develop and take the three amigos under his wing to be competitive in our first year in the BEast.
Markus was like a cheat code in a video game when he was hot and amazing on O. In three years he beat George Thompsons scoring record. It wasn’t because he was selfish…he was amazing.
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Thrillho
Thanks for granting me that Novak was “in the same league” as a Howard. That said, I think you missed that I said Novak is the best shooter ever to wear an MU uniform. There is no comparison or discussion on the topic.
There are few things that are 99% accurate in discussion of players or skills. Jim Mac is the greatest shot blocker ever, Wade is the greatest player, Novak is the greatest shooter and Howard is the greatest scorer in school history.
I think Novak had maybe the best looking shot, and given your previous insistence that Greg Elliott was not a shooter, I'm inclined to think that you include shooting form aesthetics as a significant portion of your rating.
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Markus is probably my favorite player since Wade. I would enjoy watching a horse game between prime Novak and prime Howard.
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The good news is that Markus was at least one of Marquette’s top 100 players.
But dg is right - he was no O-Lee.
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Thrillo
No Greg was not a shooter. Novak and Howard were shooters. Kam is almost a shooter. Greg was not a shooter by my definition.
Tower
I would take Howard in horse because he had more shot making ability. Flat out shooting 20-25footers I’ll take Novak all day long.
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did anyone catch the Bucks auction featured an item with Steve Novak?
This one-of-a-kind experience includes a chance for four (4), to tour the Froedtert & Medical College of Wisconsin Sports Science Center, training facility of the Milwaukee Bucks, and play a game of HORSE with Marquette University and Milwaukee Bucks Legend, Steve Novak. Experience to be fulfilled on a mutually agreed upon date.
I figured if I bid $500 that;s about $400 per minute on that horse game.
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Markus is probably my favorite player since Wade. I would enjoy watching a horse game between prime Novak and prime Howard.
I'd take Rowsey vs both of them in horse.
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Markus Howard is one MU’s greatest offensive basketball players. He deserves to be in the conversation of top MU players of all time.
I don’t ever again want to see a talent like Howard so mis-coached and required to be the only player who could win a game for Marquette.
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Deleted….accidentally hit quote instead of modify
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I'd take Rowsey vs both of them in horse.
He would definitely add to the enjoyment.
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Yes. Markus was a generational talent.
Michael Jordan was a generational talent. LeBron James was a generational talent.
Markus Howard? No.
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Markus Howard is one MU’s greatest offensive basketball players. He deserves to be in the conversation of top MU players of all time.
I don’t ever again want to see a talent like Howard so mis-coached and required to be the only player who could win a game for Marquette.
Think the main problem is that Wojo couldn’t sell the program to other top talent while Markus was here. According to 247, here are the recruiting rankings (not counting Wojo’s first year):
2015: 12
2016: 22 (Howard)
2017: 58
2018: 111
2019: 77
2020: 21
Notice the drop off from 2017-2019.
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I'm going to start with a question:
How many of you who are/were Green Bay Packers fans switched to the New York Jets because Aaron Rodgers was traded? Or the Vikings because that's where Bret Favre ended his career. Suffice to say, very few of you. You are Packers fans!
That's how I view Marquette.
I'm a Marquette fan and while I really enjoy certain players, I appreciate them because of what they did for Marquette. Not because of their personal statistics. Over the years, we've had guys who probably could shoot as well as Markus. But they subjugated their individual talent so that the combination of the whole was far better than the parts. When that happens, like 2024, the team makes the tournament and has memories.
Markus was a great shooter, a good off-guard and probably a great human being (probably only because I never met him personally). He was a crappy defender who probably could barely defend me. When he was at Marquette, we made the NCAA one time and we were wiped off the floor by a mid-major team that we would have mauled just a generation prior.
Some of you blame coaching, specifically, Coach Wojo. But I look at the floor leadership of Tyler or Oso, how they pick their teammates up or scold their teammates when there is a need. The floor leadership is two ways -- Tyler and Oso assert themselves and their teammates thrive on Tyler and Oso's guidance. How many times have we seen Tyler, for instance, wave players around, move them and set them up? How many times did Tyler forsake a shot and pass instead, for the good of the team? Some of you, perhaps, saw things I didn't but I really don't ever recall Markus being a team player. The lack of floor leadership and no sense of team during the Markus era was one of the reasons why the best team Coach Wojo had broke up -- and one of the big reasons why Coach Wojo was fired.
Markus simply was not the floor leader that made Marquette better and you can't blame Coach Wojo totally for that.
Some of you have ridiculed me for my cryptic reference to LSU and Pete Maravich. Like Markus, Maravich was a greater player that I saw frequently growing up. But LSU at the time had a very crappy basketball program, no tradition of winning and was fortunate that Daddy brought sonny boy to Baton Rouge. Unlike LSU, we have an expectation at Marquette of winning, making the tournament and contending for national titles. If we didn't, Coach Wojo would still be our coach and Markus not only would be on my list but might supplant DWade as the best player ever.
I hope nobody ever challenges Markus' scoring records. Otherwise, that probably means we have a one-dimensional basketball team that, if we schedule enough cupcakes, might be a .500 team. I don't want to go back to where we were just four short years ago and I certainly don't want to honor it. If the best thing I can say about a Marquette team is we had a great scorer, then I'm probably going to puke.
By the way, Bart Starr was the greatest Packers quarterback ever! His five world championships speaks to his greatness. Bret Favre, Aaron Rodgers and even Jordan Love can only dream of accomplishing what Mr. Starr did.
I ready the first 3 paragraphs and laughed. Reconcile that with having Sam Hauser on your all time great MU list and not having Markus Howard. Lol.
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He would definitely add to the enjoyment.
The Rowsey triple (and-1) vs Providence, when he did his "thing" with his left hand, is one of the greatest single shots I've seen watching basketball. He couldn't get his shot off the same way Howard or Novak could but the kid was an incredible pure shooter. You add his left-hand, and probably his assortment of trick shots, and I'll take Rowsey.
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I'd take Rowsey vs both of them in horse.
Nobody can duplicate The Thing.
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Nobody can duplicate The Thing.
I tried a bunch of times in an open gym Lenny and wasn't even close to hitting the rim. I still have no idea how he did that.
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I'm a Marquette fan and while I really enjoy certain players, I appreciate them because of what they did for Marquette.
I'm curious Dgies, what did Oliver Lee and Sam Hauser do for Marquette that you feel Markus did not?
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If the criteria is best Marquette careers, I'd go:
B Ellis
B Lee
D Kojis
D Meminger
D Wade
E Tatum
G Thompson
J Chones
J Crowder
M Howard
M Lucas
T Kolek
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If the criteria is best Marquette careers, I'd go:
B Ellis
B Lee
D Kojis
D Meminger
D Wade
E Tatum
G Thompson
J Chones
J Crowder
M Howard
M Lucas
T Kolek
We have the exact same 12 except I had Diener instead of Kojis. I fully allow that recency bias and/or familiarity could have played a role in that. I saw Diener do some great things for a Final Four team that I loved watching. I was a few months old when Kojis completed his senior season.
Something must be wrong with us, though, because we valued our All-American all-time scoring leader over Oliver Freakin' Lee.
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B Ellis
B Lee
D Kojis
D Meminger
D Wade
E Tatum
G Thompson
J Chones
J Crowder
T Smith
M Lucas
T Kolek
No Marcus on my list. I just don't see him as a complete basketball player.
I think this board has under-rated Tony Smith because he played during the dark days of MU ball, but he was a heckufa player.
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I loved Tony Smith. Saw him play live pretty much his entire career.
Markus was way better. AND I know how to spell his name too.
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Markus was one of the most dominant offensive weapons in the country…and a national student-athlete representative. Definitely one of best dozen players at MU.
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Thompson
Meminger
Chones
Lucas
Lee
Ellis
Wade
Howard
Kolek
Tough to leave out any one of those 9, IMHO. After that, it's a matter of personal preference. I'd probably go with:
Tatum
Crowder
Diener
But I could understand the inclusion of any number of others: Walton, McNeal, Matthews, James, Smith, Hayward, Lackey, Kojis, Smith, etc.
I like this list a lot, though as amazing as he was, I can't help having the nagging feeling that we would have been a better team had Howard left and the elder Hauser stayed that last season (assuming he was healthy). But I think all that means is that I would put Tatum in the top nine and Howard in the last three and the 12 would be the same. The way we played the last two years with everyone involved was so much better than hero ball under Wojo, and it really clouds my judgement on Markus, who I think I would have loved playing for Shaka.
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I like this list a lot, though as amazing as he was, I can't help having the nagging feeling that we would have been a better team had Howard left and the elder Hauser stayed that last season (assuming he was healthy). But I think all that means is that I would put Tatum in the top nine and Howard in the last three and the 12 would be the same. The way we played the last two years with everyone involved was so much better than hero ball under Wojo, and it really clouds my judgement on Markus, who I think I would have loved playing for Shaka.
Meh. Sam joined the defending national champions and went to play for a Hall of Fame coach, and won the same number of Tournament games. Could've been an all timer at MU, but instead is just a guy who quit because Baby Bro couldn't make his own decision and go where he wanted to go in the first place. And he is a total nobody at UVA. Program hasn't been the same since he joined. Wins a national title the year before he hops aboard. Hasn't won a Tourney game since. Crazy.