One of the weirdest stories out there

[Tugg Speedman]

Here is another opinion supporting your view and calling out ESPN's sensationalism.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnists/paul-daugherty/2015/06/03/paul-daugherty-espys-courage-award-should-go-to-lauren-hill/28428797/

Not only is it ESPN sensationalism. I think this is all orchestrated.  Nothing in Hollywood is real.   None of this is genuine.

The cynic in me thinks after Jenner was kicked off the Kardashians (he was) he asked for his own show. When met with a luke warm response, he offered to become a transgender and that got them interested.  (It was easy for him to do this because he was leaning that way for years but the pull of continued celebrity with his own show was the motivation to come out now.)

So E arranged for a reality show.  E direct the coming out.  E got (or paid for) the Vanity Fair cover (most VF covers are paid for, which is the case with most celebrity magazines).  E even made a deal for the ESPY award (E either paid for it or offered ESPN something in return.)

Most celebrity do not "get" awards.  They are paid to show up and accept them or accept them as part of a quid pro quo.  See Bill Clinton.  Major awards like Oscars, Pulitzers and Nobels are the exception.  

See Michael Sam getting the ESPY award last year.  That was all orchestrated with cover stories and a reality show as well (before the NFL balked about them filming in their training camps.  The NFL did not want the precedent of players arranged for their own reality shows being filmed in their training camps.  Their fear is every camp then has 3 to 5 crews filming in practice creating a huge disruption.  The exception is "Hard Knocks" as that is the NFL's own reality show).

This is all bought and paid for publicity to get people to watch.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Not only is it ESPN sensationalism. I think this is all orchestrated.  Nothing in Hollywood is real.   None of this is genuine.

The cynic in me thinks after Jenner was kicked off the Kardashians (he was) he asked for his own show. When met with a luke warm response, he offered to become a transgender and that got them interested.  (It was easy for him to do this because he was leaning that way for years but the pull of continued celebrity with his own show was the motivation to come out now.)

So E arranged for a reality show.  E direct the coming out.  E got (or paid for) the Vanity Fair cover (most VF covers are paid for, which is the case with most celebrity magazines).  E even made a deal for the ESPY award (E either paid for it or offered ESPN something in return.)

Most celebrity do not "get" awards.  They are paid to show up and accept them or accept them as part of a quid pro quo.  See Bill Clinton.  Major awards like Oscars, Pulitzers and Nobels are the exception.  

See Michael Sam getting the ESPY award last year.  That was all orchestrated with cover stories and a reality show as well (before the NFL balked about them filming in their training camps.  The NFL did not want the precedent of players arranged for their own reality shows being filmed in their training camps.  Their fear is every camp then has 3 to 5 crews filming in practice creating a huge disruption.  The exception is "Hard Knocks" as that is the NFL's own reality show).

This is all bought and paid for publicity to get people to watch.

This is why all the hullabaloo is going to make this the worst thing for transgender individuals (as if there are so many of them that this is a legitimate issue.)

I sympathize with individuals who are so deeply disturbed that they think changing sex is the answer to their problems, I truly do. I cannot imagine it. What irritates me is this discussion people are now having about dealing with transgender people, what bathrooms they should use, how to handle it in the workplace, how to talk to kids about it, etc. It's nonsense! This is so uncommon it's not even worth discussion. We'd be better off talking about survivors of lightning strikes.

The fact is, Jenner is going to deeply regret this "decision, as it seems a large number of those before him have acknowledged. But let's celebrate him!

[GooooMarquette]

I am waaaay more ignorant about this transgender issue.  I'm sure I'll come around in time, but I need to learn more and damn well one of the questions I'm going to have is what is done with the genitalia. If transgender people are somehow insulted about divulging that information, it's going to take a lot longer for them to reach the acceptance level that the gay community has attained. Openly sharing of all the mysteries that surround the transgender lifestyle will accelerate societal acceptance.

I am on the same page as you on understanding and accepting homosexuality - acceptance always comes after understanding - and I think this statement about transgender people is spot on.  The reality is that more information is better than less when a group is working toward understanding and acceptance.  And the more the answer is "it's none of your business," the longer it will take to gain that acceptance.

A person who wants to say "it's none of your business" certainly has every right to do so.  But they should do it with the knowledge that it delays more widespread acceptance.

[GGGG]

"I will accept you, but only if you describe your private parts."

Unreal.

[keefe]

"true gender"

Ok, I asked a colleague, a recognized authority in genomics who was a member of a Nobel Prize-winning team, about gender and he said the litmus test is simple: What is the individual's biological reproductive basis.

Cosmetically altering one's body or employing those cultural conventions and norm society attributes to a gender does not actually alter or change one's gender.

Gender is immutable. One may choose to adopt certain behaviors but one cannot actually 'change' one's gender.

[GGGG]

Ok, I asked a colleague, a recognized authority in genomics who was a member of a Nobel Prize-winning team, about gender and he said the litmus test is simple: What is the individual's biological reproductive basis.

Cosmetically altering one's body or employing those cultural conventions and norm society attributes to a gender does not actually alter or change one's gender.

Gender is immutable. One may choose to adopt certain behaviors but one cannot actually 'change' one's gender.

Well of course that is what someone who studies genomics is going to say.  They are going to give you a black and white answer based on biology.  But gender isn't simply about biology.

[Benny B]

So you're saying "it's #3".  Thanks for clarifying

"People don't choose to be gay just like people don't choose to be straight.  If you believe that it's a choice either 1) you met someone who acted as if they were gay (not the same as being gay), 2) you have never actually met a gay person, or 3) you are amazingly ignorant about sexual orientation other than your own.

I'll give you that not so long ago it was a popularly held belief that it could be a choice but understanding and science have shown that to be totally wrong just like white people aren't smarter than black people, women aren't too emotional to serve in the armed forces, having gay service men/women won't destroy moral and gingers aren't unholy soulless demons. 

It's 2015, time to be a bit more enlightened. "

Ummmm.... not so long ago you had a lot of gay people who "choosing" to be straight.  Look at any homosexual who lived a "heterosexual" life for years, decades, etc... that was a choice.

So what's so difficult to comprehend about a straight person choosing to be gay?  Bigots exist on both sides of the closet door.

[GooooMarquette]

"I will accept you, but only if you describe your private parts."

Unreal.

You're right.  Ignorance is better.  Look at how well "don't ask, don't tell" worked for homosexuals in the military.

Guess we should just stop asking questions and believe what we're told to believe.

[GGGG]

You're right.  Ignorance is better.  Look at how well "don't ask, don't tell" worked for homosexuals in the military.

Guess we should just stop asking questions and believe what we're told to believe.

The equivalent of "describe your private parts" isn't Don't Ask, Don't Tell, but asking a homosexual guy to "describe giving a blow job."  It is a rude question about something that should be private.

Do you really think that gay and lesbian rights has advanced in this country because they are sharing their most intimate details with the public?  No.  It's because people have kind of figured out that they are simply normal people with private lives just like the rest of us.

[keefe]

Well of course that is what someone who studies genomics is going to say.  They are going to give you a black and white answer based on biology.  But gender isn't simply about biology.

Well, it is the only empirically demonstrable fact we have.

At the end of the day, if the question is what is an individual's gender, the only evidence-based proof point we have is our genetic code.

Gender is about biology. How one chooses to express oneself or behave according to cultural norms and conventions is not fact but, rather, aspiration. The difference is profound.  

[GGGG]

Well, it is the only empirically demonstrable fact we have.

At the end of the day, if the question is what is an individual's gender, the only evidence-based proof point we have is our genetic code.

Gender is about biology. How one chooses to express oneself or behave according to cultural norms and conventions is not fact but, rather, aspiration. The difference is profound. 

You're right.  The difference is profound.  That doesn't mean that non-objective definitions of "gender" don't exist. 

[Lennys Tap]

Well of course that is what someone who studies genomics is going to say.  They are going to give you a black and white answer based on biology.  But gender isn't simply about biology.

So gender is a decision about how one feels regardless of their biology?

[JWags85]

Ummmm.... not so long ago you had a lot of gay people who "choosing" to be straight.  Look at any homosexual who lived a "heterosexual" life for years, decades, etc... that was a choice.

So what's so difficult to comprehend about a straight person choosing to be gay?  Bigots exist on both sides of the closet door.

Would a Jewish person in Nazi Germany who masqueraded as a Christian be any less Jewish?  And I mean in the genetic/heritage sense, not choice of religion.

Choosing to adopt the less persecuted and more "socially acceptable" path to avoid persecution, bigotry, or familial discord is very different than actively "choosing" to become one of the persecuted.  Some anti-homosexuality conservative advocates would like to believe being homosexual is a "hip and cool" choice, but really, outside of a few VERY small niches, there is no benefit to be gained socially or otherwise by making such a choice.  It may have happened here or there, but to act like its a widespread activity meant to cheapen the biological basis of homosexuality is unfair.

[keefe]

sharing their most intimate details with the public

Thank you. This is what I find repulsive about Jenner's grandstanding in all of this. I could care less how he or anyone else chooses to live their life. But to think that this whole transition has not been carefully scripted in a cynical attempt to generate fame and fortune through bizarre notoriety is naive.

I mentioned the transgender person at MS. When I met Debbie for the first time it was clear she was painfully awkward in her new personae which was largely driven by concern over how people would respond. She made a decision in how to live her life and the vast majority of people really didn't care.


I contrast Debbie's painful awkwardness with Jenner's in-your-face publicity grubbing antics and I am reminded that quiet dignity is usually the more elegant.  
  

[GGGG]

So gender is a decision about how one feels regardless of their biology?

One of the definitions of gender in the Oxford English Dictionary is:

"The state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones)"

[Lennys Tap]

One of the definitions of gender in the Oxford English Dictionary is:

"The state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones)"

Got it (I think). So Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner is a man biologically and a woman socially and culturally?

[GGGG]

Got it (I think). So Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner is a man biologically and a woman socially and culturally?

Well, if she has physically altered herself, I am not sure how that meets the biological definition.  That is where the genomicist (?) comes into play.

But really the biological definition isn't the one that comes to play in her day to day life.

[Benny B]

Would a Jewish person in Nazi Germany who masqueraded as a Christian be any less Jewish?  And I mean in the genetic/heritage sense, not choice of religion.

Choosing to adopt the less persecuted and more "socially acceptable" path to avoid persecution, bigotry, or familial discord is very different than actively "choosing" to become one of the persecuted.  Some anti-homosexuality conservative advocates would like to believe being homosexual is a "hip and cool" choice, but really, outside of a few VERY small niches, there is no benefit to be gained socially or otherwise by making such a choice.  It may have happened here or there, but to act like its a widespread activity meant to cheapen the biological basis of homosexuality is unfair.

Nobody said anything about being widespread; all that was said was that some people make that choice.  Some do.

[Lennys Tap]

Well, if she has physically altered herself, I am not sure how that meets the biological definition.  That is where the genomicist (?) comes into play.

But really the biological definition isn't the one that comes to play in her day to day life.

So, back to the TransAbles. If they feel like they are amputees and live like they're amputees they don't need to actually amputate anything to be amputees.

[GGGG]

So, back to the TransAbles. If they feel like they are amputees and live like they're amputees they don't need to actually amputate anything to be amputees.

[Lennys Tap]

Isn't that the argument those advocating on their behalf make?

[GGGG]

No definition of "amputee" that I can find includes anything but the physical.  Words change though.

[Jay Bee]

For the record, I'm a white dude, but I'm black from the waist down.   

Yeah, mostly in ur azz.

---------------------------------
For those of you who inappropriately disagree with my factual knowledge that (1) Jenner is a weirdo and (2) some people choose to be gay, why do you believe (2) is not true?

It's fact - some people choose to be gay. Some do it to feel included. "Eh, what the hell.. I'll give this a try..."

Why do you believe that NO ONE chooses to be gay?

[Pakuni]

Yeah, mostly in ur azz.

---------------------------------
For those of you who inappropriately disagree with my factual knowledge that (1) Jenner is a weirdo and (2) some people choose to be gay, why do you believe (2) is not true?

It's fact - some people choose to be gay. Some do it to feel included. "Eh, what the hell.. I'll give this a try..."

Why do you believe that NO ONE chooses to be gay?

It's really not that difficult.
"Acting" gay is not the same as "being" gay.

[Jay Bee]

It's really not that difficult.
"Acting" gay is not the same as "being" gay.

Ahhh.... you agree that some people choose to be gay... but you'd say they are just 'fakers' even if they make a life of it... and thus, they're not "real gays"??