Wojo's Seat April 4, 2017

[GGGG]

I hope that Lovell/Wojo can crawl out of the hole that Pilarz/LW dug at the direction of the BOT, but here's the thing...

Marquette has only been a force in college basketball when it's had players and coaches with chips on their shoulders. Kids from questionable schools and backgrounds, kids from underprivileged neighborhoods, kids that are risky. And coaches and administrators willing to take those risks. Maybe Lovell/Wojo are already taking those risks. I hope so, because there is nothing in Marquette's basketball DNA that suggests the "Duke North" model is a successful one.

Explain the Kevin O'Neill era then. 

[MUfan12]

Not to mention the assault issue wasn't the only issue around integrity(coaching staff and players) that happened under Buzz's watch.

I'm not making this all out that Buzz was terrible or that MU had no role.

That's fair, but when I see things like "criminals and thugs need not apply," I don't like it. I took that as meaning Buzz's guys were thugs and criminals. There were a couple bad apples in an overall solid group of guys. That can happen when you focus on trying to save kids from tough backgrounds. When it worked out, Buzz unlocked things in some of those players that made them great.

Wojo would rather shed that baggage and focus on hoops. And I hope it works out for them, but so far the result has been two pretty soft Marquette teams. I'm hoping the staff can strike some balance and find a few tough SOBs. Cain was a good start, French would be even better.

[GGGG]

That's fair, but when I see things like "criminals and thugs need not apply," I get uncomfortable with it. There were a couple bad apples in an overall solid group of guys. That can happen when you focus on trying to save kids from tough backgrounds. When it worked out, Buzz unlocked things in some of those players that made them great.

To be honest, you can get "bad apples" no matter the background of the players. 

[Dawson Rental]

Explain the Kevin O'Neill era then.

Seriously?  While Buzz had greater quanity, O'Neill would definitely be my pick for better quality of wacky stuff said.  At a reception after a DePaul game, I heard O'Neill say that after the way Robb Logtermann played, O'Neill was wondering if Logtermann had been smoking weed.

[GGGG]

Seriously?  While Buzz had greater quanity, O'Neill would definitely be my pick for better quality of wacky stuff said.  I at a reception after a DePaul game, I heard O'Neill say that after the way Robb Logtermann played, O'Neill was wondering if Logtermann had been smoking weed.

My point is that ONeill recruited players from very traditional backgrounds.

[Lennys Tap]

Nonetheless, "Duke North" is the road Marquette is now on.  There has indeed been a sea change, kimo sabe.

Not only do I agree with your description of how Marquette established its basketball program as a nationally relevant one, I'd argue that the "rebel" and "outsider" mystique was a big part of the    ...er charm of being a Marquette fan.

So Hiroshima is here, and the SLUing of the basketball program is a fait accompli?

If true, I won't be one of those sorry ass fans celebrating our mediocrity by bragging about the team's cumulative GPA or SAT scores - I live 20 minutes from Evanston and have watched Northwestern fans do the same for 40 years.It's boring and laughable, but at least they have the excuse that they don't know any better. We do.

[mu03eng]

Is that a fire-able offense at most universities?

Is or should be? The former was the norm we are moving toward the latter now (which is a good thing IMO)

[Jay Bee]

It is to bad but Reinhardt might be a better option any way because he will play a stretch 4.

FWIW, calling Katin a "stretch 4" is stretching too far. He's a guard who may need to log minutes at "the 4"

[mu03eng]

That's fair, but when I see things like "criminals and thugs need not apply," I don't like it. I took that as meaning Buzz's guys were thugs and criminals. There were a couple bad apples in an overall solid group of guys. That can happen when you focus on trying to save kids from tough backgrounds. When it worked out, Buzz unlocked things in some of those players that made them great.

Wojo would rather shed that baggage and focus on hoops. And I hope it works out for them, but so far the result has been two pretty soft Marquette teams. I'm hoping the staff can strike some balance and find a few tough SOBs. Cain was a good start, French would be even better.

I don't like it either and I don't think the vast majority of the MU fans would espouse that line of thinking either.

However, softness and the players background aren't directly correlated. I think it's more a focus of coaching style and player experience. We'll see what Wojo can do in year 3 as all of the players are his (either recruited or re-recruited) and should be more of a match to his style than playing with Buzz's leftovers. I throw out the first two years, let's see what he does from a tough perspective this year and decide.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Is or should be? The former was the norm we are moving toward the latter now (which is a good thing IMO)

I was asking "is it" (and also thanks Sultan for the response)


 

[jsglow]

That's fair, but when I see things like "criminals and thugs need not apply," I don't like it. I took that as meaning Buzz's guys were thugs and criminals. There were a couple bad apples in an overall solid group of guys. That can happen when you focus on trying to save kids from tough backgrounds. When it worked out, Buzz unlocked things in some of those players that made them great.

Wojo would rather shed that baggage and focus on hoops. And I hope it works out for them, but so far the result has been two pretty soft Marquette teams. I'm hoping the staff can strike some balance and find a few tough SOBs. Cain was a good start, French would be even better.

I certainly had no desire to paint with too broad a brush.  Certainly many of Buzz' recruits were outstanding kids.  Anyway, my main point was that going forward standards (behavior OR academic) weren't going to be relaxed for the sole purpose of winning basketball games and it's clear that the line moved away from where Buzz wanted it to be.  That doesn't make anyone right or wrong, just different.  Honestly, as much as we all love Jae, I think his admittance when graduation was impossible during his years here really had an impact and got them thinking about other things on the slippery slope, some of which should be considered intolerable at any institution.

[HoopsterBC]

FWIW, calling Katin a "stretch 4" is stretching too far. He's a guard who may need to log minutes at "the 4"

Stretch 4 to me just means he is a 2 or 3 playing out of position, and can shot the 3, ie.  Lazar and Crowder.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I certainly had no desire to paint with too broad a brush.  Certainly many of Buzz' recruits were outstanding kids.  Anyway, my main point was that going forward standards (behavior OR academic) weren't going to be relaxed for the sole purpose of winning basketball games and it's clear that the line moved away from where Buzz wanted it to be.  That doesn't make anyone right or wrong, just different.  Honestly, as much as we all love Jae, I think his admittance when graduation was impossible during his years here really had an impact and got them thinking about other things on the slippery slope, some of which should be considered intolerable at any institution.

I broadly agree with your sentiment except the last part - just because that line of thinking should disqualify taking in a one-and-done and should make everyone feel really really bad about 1-year renewable scholarships (in a practical sense not a theoretical). 

No reason to pick and choose which NCAA restrictions we choose to live above.

[Pakuni]

2. Al's teams were full of kids you'd call high risk. Crean successful ones, too. If MU aspires to compete at the highest level, that's a given. The "both sides" argument is really whether to compete at that level or not.

That's a massive stretch.
DWade had some academic issues, but was/is a quality guy and certainly not a "high risk."
Who else are you calling "high risk?" Novak? Diener? Wes Matthews? Dom James? McNeal? Dan Fitzgerald?
What made those guys risky?

3. Buzz wanted out after his last season enough to leave almost immediately and for less money. The idea that he was in negotiations for a raise at a job he wanted desperately to leave is laughable.

I think he was referring to Buzz's name being mentioned prominently at places like Minnesota after the 2012-13 season.

4. You don't know and I don't know whether sexual assault occurred. you weren't there and neither was I. Regardless, other than rumors/speculation, what's buzz's culpability here?

Team meeting.
I agree with you that a lot of the character issues raised since Buzz left are nonsense, but that was a huge misstep on his part, and if it had occurred in 2016 instead of 2011, Buzz might be the hoops version of Art Briles.

[Galway Eagle]

4. You don't know and I don't know whether sexual assault occurred. you weren't there and neither was I. Regardless, other than rumors/speculation, what's buzz's culpability here?

How about Facebook posts directly from the victim? Enough proof for me. Jeeze how any alum can still claim that it may or may not have happened is beyond me. Is your whole outlook on life essentially cover your eyes and ears so that you can claim "well maybe it didn't happen, I don't know"

[Lennys Tap]

How about Facebook posts directly from the victim? Enough proof for me. Jeeze how any alum can still claim that it may or may not have happened is beyond me. Is your whole outlook on life essentially cover your eyes and ears so that you can claim "well maybe it didn't happen, I don't know"

I'm not sure what you mean. I never saw the post that you refer to, but if you're saying that because someone posts something on Facebook it's gospel and not just one version that seems either naive or prejudiced.

[Lennys Tap]

That's a massive stretch.
DWade had some academic issues, but was/is a quality guy and certainly not a "high risk."
Who else are you calling "high risk?" Novak? Diener? Wes Matthews? Dom James? McNeal? Dan Fitzgerald?
What made those guys risky?

The team that made Crean's coaching bones (and won all but 1 of the NCAA tournament games he won in 9 years at MU) was led by a non qualifier (who had an absent Father and a drug addicted Mother) and a product of the MPS system who was the SEC's newcomer of the year at Mississippi St (yech) who had fallen deep into his coach's doghouse there before transferring to Marquette.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not disparaging either one of those guys. In fact, I jumped for joy over Wade's commitment and was ecstatic over the Jackson transfer. They were both risky, though.

[Lennys Tap]

Explain the Kevin O'Neill era then.

The O'Neill "era" was one good year and one pretty good year. One great Wisconsin recruiting class with 2 bigs followed by Tony Miller. To me, more outlier than era.

[jsglow]

I broadly agree with your sentiment except the last part - just because that line of thinking should disqualify taking in a one-and-done and should make everyone feel really really bad about 1-year renewable scholarships (in a practical sense not a theoretical). 

No reason to pick and choose which NCAA restrictions we choose to live above.

We don't disagree at all.  HE absolutely came in with the ability to graduate during his allotted time on campus.  The fact that he (or Vander) chose to leave early is no reflection on Marquette's education mission.  But when Jae was brought in for the purpose of playing basketball without an ability to achieve the university's education objective before he ran out of eligibility, that was ultimately deemed to be contrary to the mission.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

We don't disagree at all.  HE absolutely came in with the ability to graduate during his allotted time on campus.  The fact that he (or Vander) chose to leave early is no reflection on Marquette's education mission.  But when Jae was brought in for the purpose of playing basketball without an ability to achieve the university's education objective before he ran out of eligibility, that was ultimately deemed to be contrary to the mission.

I meant in the practical sense (HE was not going stay 4 years - nor are most 1/2 and done players).  Similarly cutting a player is running contrary to that mission as well - denying a kid a chance at an education at MU because of their bball playing ability.  I personally think all kids should get that chance to use these schools for bball as long as they meet NCAA requirements. 

I do see where you are coming from though and respect it -- just dont feel the same way.

[mu03eng]

We don't disagree at all.  HE absolutely came in with the ability to graduate during his allotted time on campus.  The fact that he (or Vander) chose to leave early is no reflection on Marquette's education mission.  But when Jae was brought in for the purpose of playing basketball without an ability to achieve the university's education objective before he ran out of eligibility, that was ultimately deemed to be contrary to the mission.

Not to mention all the mental and philosophical gymnastics we had to do to even get him admitted.

Jae is a great talent and human being, but he was a mercenary rental who turned out to be a really good player.

[Lennys Tap]

We don't disagree at all.  HE absolutely came in with the ability to graduate during his allotted time on campus.  The fact that he (or Vander) chose to leave early is no reflection on Marquette's education mission.  But when Jae was brought in for the purpose of playing basketball without an ability to achieve the university's education objective before he ran out of eligibility, that was ultimately deemed to be contrary to the mission.

I call BS. Everybody involved at Marquette from Lovell on down knew that Henry was adios the minute his freshman season ended. I doubt if he even bothered to finish the spring semester. Jae may not have had a chance to complete his degree before his eligibility was finished, but he's light year's closer to a degree than Henry - hell, he was closer to a degree when he arrived than Henry was when he left. Their attitude drips with elitism and hypocrisy with a hint of racism. Cura Personalis, indeed.

[Pakuni]

The O'Neill "era" was one good year and one pretty good year. One great Wisconsin recruiting class with 2 bigs followed by Tony Miller. To me, more outlier than era.

Lets' not forget Mike Deane had four straight 20-win seasons and two NCAA appearances largely (or in some cases entirely) with O'Neill players.
The complete antithesis of inheriting a  bare cupboard.

[Galway Eagle]

I'm not sure what you mean. I never saw the post that you refer to, but if you're saying that because someone posts something on Facebook it's gospel and not just one version that seems either naive or prejudiced.

I'm saying I know who it was and she deserves better than someone questioning her integrity. She is extremely vocal on FB about being a survivor and rightfully so. She nor the other girl that it happened to do not deserve to be questioned all this time later because some people are some enamored with the success we had they refuse to believe that buzz and his players weren't infallible.

[mu03eng]

I call BS. Everybody involved at Marquette from Lovell on down knew that Henry was adios the minute his freshman season ended. I doubt if he even bothered to finish the spring semester. Jae may not have had a chance to complete his degree before his eligibility was finished, but he's light year's closer to a degree than Henry - hell, he was closer to a degree when he arrived than Henry was when he left. Their attitude drips with elitism and hypocrisy with a hint of racism. Cura Personalis, indeed.

I don't think you realize just how bad's Jae's transcript was prior to coming to MU. Not a reflection on his intelligence or capabilities but your statement that Jae was closer to a degree before he transferred here than Henry after a year is flat out false.

You may have a point that they are similarly disingenuous towards education. Henry's situation is certainly more "justifiable" to an outside audience than Jae's is even though both result in no degree.