MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 1SE on September 30, 2016, 04:00:12 PM
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Go on record now.
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An early exit from the NIT once again falls short of expectations, but not dramatically so - the consummate (just) underachiever. Seat temperature creeps up to Lake Michigan in June - mostly cool and refreshing but with that first hint of warmth.
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(http://www.iceculture.com/bin/media/large/r_ice-throne-with-torch-logo.jpg)
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Or we've had such a successful season he's sitting on the Iron Throne.
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Zero Kelvin is reserved for Izzo, Roy Williams and Coach K. Really can't vote for absolute zero unless they're an absolute legend.
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(http://www.iceculture.com/bin/media/large/r_ice-throne-with-torch-logo.jpg)
Yup.
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Let's do this after the 2019 season; I'm willing to give him a long rope.
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Welcome back MoM.
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MU admin is committed to him for the long haul. Unless this team completely tanks for no apparent reason, his seat remains refrigerated. No matter how many threads you start.
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Im glad this wasn't a thread about what his butt might look like next spring, since some Scoopers are into posting pics....
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Still another three years before it's even possible to have the slightest opinion of Wojo
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Im glad this wasn't a thread about what his butt might look like next spring, since some Scoopers are into posting pics....
Probably wet, if he's sitting in an ice chair until then.
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This is year three. It sucks but we're giving him five seasons before they're tossing him out. They'll judge based on how he does with a team entirely packed with his players. (And Sandy I suppose)
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This is year three. It sucks but we're giving him five seasons before they're tossing him out. They'll judge based on how he does with a team entirely packed with his players. (And Sandy I suppose)
Feels like year five - time to have fun again. Did you all see the Facebook pics of the first practice?
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Zero Kelvin is reserved for Izzo, Roy Williams and Coach K. Really can't vote for absolute zero unless they're an absolute legend.
Or Wojo, if Marquette gets to the final four.
I went for state street in November.
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I'll reserve judgment until this season is over. I'm giving Coach Wojo the benefit of the doubt.
Hope everyone else does too.
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I'll go on record to say this is more silliness.
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I'd probably be harder on this than most and still voted for State Street. Not his fault yet, but 1st time in my lifetime MU has not been in postseason for three straight years. That needs to end this year.
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I'll go on record to say this is more silliness.
And hand wringing, scrunched up butt cheeks, wrinkled brow, facial contortions, restless legs, pencil tapping...allllll to wait and see if...???
We basically have a whole new look team with a couple of potential stud-like ballers and some real intrigue on paper. Got to let it play out boys(and girl). We may end up living and dying with the run and gun and the 3 because we sure as hell ain't gonna be pounding it inside. Meet the revived "west coast" offense? We are going to have to "out-quick" our opponents. Well that, and score more points than them, ' ey 'ey?
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Truth is .. the bottom has fallen out of MUBB expectations.
Five years ago, you could find threads on Scoop that talked about legit expectations .. be in the top 64 / make the dance at least 4 out of 6 years .. make it to the 2nd weekend or farther in 2 out of 6. We weren't elite, but had a solid, performing program year after year where missing both the dance and NIT were unthinkable.
Not so much any more, it's normal to watch 96 other teams play in March. Wojo is safe for at least 3 more seasons, excepting player scandals. And even then, I think it's a good bet we'll have a decent season in that mix, prolonging the Wojo era.
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I said 0 Kelvin because I firmly believe the bottom won't fall out this year. Even if we disappoint and go 14-17, that won't be bad enough to get him fired. They'll at least give him one more year with his own players. So yeah...0 Kelvin. No chance whatsoever he gets fired on April 4, 2017, barring some major scandal.
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Truth is .. the bottom has fallen out of MUBB expectations.
Five years ago, you could find threads on Scoop that talked about legit expectations .. be in the top 64 / make the dance at least 4 out of 6 years .. make it to the 2nd weekend or farther in 2 out of 6. We weren't elite, but had a solid, performing program year after year where missing both the dance and NIT were unthinkable.
Well said.
Luckily all this time & trajectory of improvement 'stuff' is almost over and I am sure everyone is tired of talking about it. Its results time from here forward. My expectations are at a bare minimum this year (NIT) so plenty of room to get me enthusiastic about the product on the floor again.
If we are talking the same way this time next year it may make sense just for me to go away until things change because no sense in banging your head against a wall.
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Luckily all this time & trajectory of improvement 'stuff' is almost over and I am sure everyone is tired of talking about it. Its results time from here forward. My expectations are at a bare minimum this year (NIT) so plenty of room to get me enthusiastic about the product on the floor again.
Maybe it's the hope springs eternal nature of preseason, but I am really liking what Wojo is doing, especially with this current recruiting class. Sure, we missed out on Tillman, but the staff identified a clear lack of tough bigs on our roster last year and has worked their asses off to correct it with this class.
When Wojo arrived, we didn't have shooters, we didn't have rebounders, we simply didn't have players. Considering Buzz's recruiting reputation and the hard-nosed rep his teams developed, it's amazing what he left behind. The guys that were talented (Jajuan, Deonte) weren't tough, and the guys that were tough (Derrick, Juan) weren't that talented.
I think there's only one guy that Buzz left behind that, as they were at that time, would improve this team. That says volumes about how far we fell, but also how far we've come. Personally, I really like Cheatham, Carter, and Heldt going forward. I can't wait to watch Reinhardt, Rowsey, Howard, and Hauser. And I think Wojo has done great with guys like Fischer, Duane, and Jajuan that were left behind. And looking ahead, thinking about those young guys growing up and seeing through recruiting how the coach is already adapting his style to the requirements of this league, I'm excited.
We're not there yet, but I think we're a lot closer than some might realize.
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Truth is .. the bottom has fallen out of MUBB expectations.
That's what happens when you're in the CUSA v2
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Truth is .. the bottom has fallen out of MUBB expectations.
Five years ago, you could find threads on Scoop that talked about legit expectations .. be in the top 64 / make the dance at least 4 out of 6 years .. make it to the 2nd weekend or farther in 2 out of 6. We weren't elite, but had a solid, performing program year after year where missing both the dance and NIT were unthinkable.
Not so much any more, it's normal to watch 96 other teams play in March. Wojo is safe for at least 3 more seasons, excepting player scandals. And even then, I think it's a good bet we'll have a decent season in that mix, prolonging the Wojo era.
While I completely agree that Wojo has a long leash, I really don't think the long term expectations have changed. Given the coin the university spends, regular (like almost every year) NCAA appearances are the standard. Our failure to meet that standard in recent years (mostly not Wojo's fault) has already pretty dramatically impacted attendance. Mike Lovell has a keen sense of the overall importance of basketball and an even better sense that this is a performance driven business. He absolutely expects Wojo to win with the resources that are available. I also think he still firmly believes that Wojo is totally up to the task evidenced by the progress made to date.
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A lake-Michigan warm seat doesn't mean Wojo out at the end of the season - it means there would at least be the chance the 17-18 season would be his last.
If we miss the NIT it certainly seems that that would be realistic. Even if we squeak into the NIT and flame out. Listen, I hope we go to the NCAA and that starts a return to regular annual appearances. But if we miss out again this year I will find my mubb interest waning - we are paying coin for a top flight program - we are owed more than mid major results.
It's entirely on Wojo we that don't have a serviceable 4 on our roster this year. I hope the run and gun and 3 wild-west shoot out strategy works - it would certainly be exciting ball - but if it doesn't produce Ws then it's on Wojo for the team he put together (and how he has coached them).
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Maybe it's the hope springs eternal nature of preseason, but I am really liking what Wojo is doing, especially with this current recruiting class. Sure, we missed out on Tillman, but the staff identified a clear lack of tough bigs on our roster last year and has worked their asses off to correct it with this class.
When Wojo arrived, we didn't have shooters, we didn't have rebounders, we simply didn't have players. Considering Buzz's recruiting reputation and the hard-nosed rep his teams developed, it's amazing what he left behind. The guys that were talented (Jajuan, Deonte) weren't tough, and the guys that were tough (Derrick, Juan) weren't that talented.
I think there's only one guy that Buzz left behind that, as they were at that time, would improve this team. That says volumes about how far we fell, but also how far we've come. Personally, I really like Cheatham, Carter, and Heldt going forward. I can't wait to watch Reinhardt, Rowsey, Howard, and Hauser. And I think Wojo has done great with guys like Fischer, Duane, and Jajuan that were left behind. And looking ahead, thinking about those young guys growing up and seeing through recruiting how the coach is already adapting his style to the requirements of this league, I'm excited.
We're not there yet, but I think we're a lot closer than some might realize.
Hey recruiting gives me hope too and good coaches can achieve a lot with a little talent.
I'm just done worrying about the academic arguments at this stage. We either start winning and I'm happy or we don't.
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Truth is .. the bottom has fallen out of MUBB expectations.
Five years ago, you could find threads on Scoop that talked about legit expectations .. be in the top 64 / make the dance at least 4 out of 6 years .. make it to the 2nd weekend or farther in 2 out of 6. We weren't elite, but had a solid, performing program year after year where missing both the dance and NIT were unthinkable.
Not so much any more, it's normal to watch 96 other teams play in March. Wojo is safe for at least 3 more seasons, excepting player scandals. And even then, I think it's a good bet we'll have a decent season in that mix, prolonging the Wojo era.
I don't think expectations have changed 1 bit. Expectations are, at least for me, we make the NCAA every year and are a threat to make a little run in the Tournament almost every year. I think the administration's and BOD's expectations are similar.
That doesn't mean we can't be realistic about where the program was when Wojo took over and understand that it's going to take some time to get the program back to where it can realistically meet those expectations.
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That's what happens when you're in the CUSA v2
Yeah! Remember all those years we were putting 50% of the conference into the NCAA Tournament and winning National Titles with CUSA?!
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It also has to be said, that changing coaches is a huge deal that /usually/ sets a program back years. You likely lose your recruiting class, and maybe a few other players. It usually means your program is in rebuilding mode for 2 years minimum, and often more.
The question becomes do you fire Wojo and throw your program down the crapper another 2-3 years for the prospect of being better in 6 years? Unless he's on par with DePaul, the answer is likely no. He'll continue "having potential" for at least 5 more years.
As I said .. barring scandal, Wojo is safe for many, many years.
I don't think expectations have changed 1 bit. Expectations are, at least for me, we make the NCAA every year and are a threat to make a little run in the Tournament almost every year. I think the administration's and BOD's expectations are similar.
I don't doubt you and others believe. I do think that universe of folks is far smaller today, driving that average down.
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https://youtu.be/R0ljUvblMco
With 100 years of Marquette basketball and 40 years since the NCAA Championship...the heat may be turned up a bit, hey?
That said, Wojo came in with a long term plan but not a great short term plan as that first year was a waste. His third recruiting class of Howard, Hauser and Reinhardt is looking like a great class, however, for the long term health of the program's continuity. Cheatham is a stud from last year. The seniors should have something to prove as they have all underachieved their potential.
The team needs to play great team defense (as they are small without Hank) and defend the home court (something yet to be accomplished under Wojo), the dial will return to cold, with or without an NCAA bid. Offensively, MU will be fun to watch, but the turnover rate needs to be brought into control. Howard will be key there.
Thank god for Stan, I might add by opening new doors. Nailing it.
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Depends how the season goes. If we are in the hunt, top 5 or 6 of the conference, competitive all year, he will be fine. If play terribly, then different conclusion.
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Our failure to meet that standard in recent years (mostly not Wojo's fault) has already pretty dramatically impacted attendance.
This is the first year that I can remember where 5-game mini-plans could secure seats in the lower bowl. Further indication of season ticket holder erosion, Even if some of the lowerbowlers retained their seats but moved up to the cheaper upperdeckers. Hopefully a couple of strong seasons and moving to a new first class, burrito-looking NBA arena, will help to revitalize the fan base. The BMO Harris Bradley Center was a morgue at many games last year (mostly due to the slate of fatty cupcakes). I wish we had a serviceable PF or 2 on the roster this year, but I am still bullish on Wojo and think this will be a fun season. Looking forward to Marquette Madness. The season cant get here fast enough.
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Dr. Blackheart touched on it earlier but to me, the most abhorrent part of Wojo's tenure so far is the losing at home. Crean almost NEVER lost at home, and neither did Buzz. Now, it's become the norm. Unless he can get the home court advantage back(at a dominating level), MU will never get back to the heights they were at. Some of the games they have lost at home(Nebraska Omaha being one of many), are completely inexcusable and unacceptable. That's why attendance is waning.
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Dr. Blackheart touched on it earlier but to me, the most abhorrent part of Wojo's tenure so far is the losing at home. Crean almost NEVER lost at home, and neither did Buzz. Now, it's become the norm. Unless he can get the home court advantage back(at a dominating level), MU will never get back to the heights they were at. Some of the games they have lost at home(Nebraska Omaha being one of many), are completely inexcusable and unacceptable. That's why attendance is waning.
Thinking home court advantage is solely on a new coach's shoulders is more than a bit extreme/naive. Home court advantage takes a fan base that supports the organization through predictable down turns.
If you want to give the program the best opportunity for home court advantage..........wait for it.............GO TO THE GAMES AND CHEAR!
Shocking, i know.
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Thinking home court advantage is solely on a new coach's shoulders is more than a bit extreme/naive. Home court advantage takes a fan base that supports the organization through predictable down turns.
If you want to give the program the best opportunity for home court advantage..........wait for it.............GO TO THE GAMES AND CHEAR!
Shocking, i know.
Lost two games by 20+ points at home last year. Anybody know the last time that happened?
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Dr. Blackheart touched on it earlier but to me, the most abhorrent part of Wojo's tenure so far is the losing at home. Crean almost NEVER lost at home
Crean's second season (2000-01), Marquette was 10-6 at home, a .625 winning percentage. Marquette played one ranked team at home all season (Wisconsin) and lost.
Wojo's second season (2015-16), Marquette was 12-7 at home, a .632 winning percentage. Marquette played three ranked teams at home and went 1-2.
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While I completely agree that Wojo has a long leash, I really don't think the long term expectations have changed. Given the coin the university spends, regular (like almost every year) NCAA appearances are the standard. Our failure to meet that standard in recent years (mostly not Wojo's fault) has already pretty dramatically impacted attendance. Mike Lovell has a keen sense of the overall importance of basketball and an even better sense that this is a performance driven business. He absolutely expects Wojo to win with the resources that are available. I also think he still firmly believes that Wojo is totally up to the task evidenced by the progress made to date.
The points you make are true in a general sense. However, I believe Lovell is star struck with respect to Wojo and therefore there is no performance metric . Hence we are stuck with Wojo till the end of his contract and will have to suffer through his coaching growing pains as a result.
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Crean's second season (2000-01), Marquette was 10-6 at home, a .625 winning percentage. Marquette played one ranked team at home all season (Wisconsin) and lost.
Wojo's second season (2015-16), Marquette was 12-7 at home, a .632 winning percentage. Marquette played three ranked teams at home and went 1-2.
Oh, you and your silly "facts".
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Crean's second season (2000-01), Marquette was 10-6 at home, a .625 winning percentage. Marquette played one ranked team at home all season (Wisconsin) and lost.
Wojo's second season (2015-16), Marquette was 12-7 at home, a .632 winning percentage. Marquette played three ranked teams at home and went 1-2.
I know you were answering another poster, but, to me, the thread is about any future heat, not the shyteshows of the past that were inherited. With the transfers and seniors, I think home court is reestablished and the temperature remains low, even without a NCAA bid. For whatever reason, it seems like MU has played better on the road under Wojo (Thanksgiving tournaments, Madison, Providence, Omaha, Rosemont).
Now, if Bucky blows us out and MU lays another egg versus DePaul, look for a mushroom cloud.
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Welcome back MoM.
Didn't know she was banned, hey?
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Billy Packer was right, ai na?
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The points you make are true in a general sense. However, I believe Lovell is star struck with respect to Wojo and therefore there is no performance metric . Hence we are stuck with Wojo till the end of his contract and will have to suffer through his coaching growing pains as a result.
Absolutely ridiculous statement. Yes there's a performance metric. No, we're not going to 'do anything and everything' to achieve it immediately. To that end, no one will be recruited or admitted who has zero ability to graduate on time (no criticism of Jae intended) and criminals and thugs and need not apply. Out of respect for the departed I'm not going to mention names. Serves zero purpose at this time.
Wojo is expected to build a winning program with kids that properly reflect on Marquette and its values. That takes some time given where we started. When and if he succeeds, great. If he fails he'll be gone. There's no evidence that he's failing. On the contrary, I'd argue that his bosses see progress and expect more in the short term with a goal of being a 'power' when the new building opens in 2 seasons.
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Absolutely ridiculous statement. Yes there's a performance metric. No, we're not going to 'do anything and everything' to achieve it immediately. To that end, no one will be recruited or admitted who has zero ability to graduate on time (no criticism of Jae intended) and criminals and thugs and need not apply. Out of respect for the departed I'm not going to mention names. Serves zero purpose at this time.
Wojo is expected to build a winning program with kids that properly reflect on Marquette and its values. That takes some time given where we started. When and if he succeeds, great. If he fails he'll be gone. There's no evidence that he's failing. On the contrary, I'd argue that his bosses see progress and expect more in the short term with a goal of being a 'power' when the new building opens in 2 seasons.
Well said.
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One point is missing is when you take a one and done player to a school that does not replace a one and done player, like MU, it really hurts the program. Henry would
have been a great recruit if the team was experienced and he was the final cog on a good team. But just like Carlino, now Ellenson, your best player is gone, and your
starting over in some respects. This team you were not able to find a power forward to replace him. Puts the team behind the 8 ball again, and next year with a very
young inexperienced team upfront, might be the same problem. The turnaround might be 3 or 4 years from now. That does not do it for me.
Now losing Tillman might be better in the long run to secure Joey. Joey has a nice outside game, really a stretch 4. The question I always have about a kid up north,
are they athletic enough against Big East competition?
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I said 0 Kelvin because I firmly believe the bottom won't fall out this year. Even if we disappoint and go 14-17, that won't be bad enough to get him fired. They'll at least give him one more year with his own players. So yeah...0 Kelvin. No chance whatsoever he gets fired on April 4, 2017, barring some major scandal.
Gotta be honest, MU's 14-17 this year, I'm at the minimum Real Chili Hot, and a fair or decent shot I'd vote gone. Pass for year 1 because Brent left the cupboard bare, progress last year, need to show progress again, and 14-17 would be a pretty significant step backwards.
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Absolutely ridiculous statement. Yes there's a performance metric. No, we're not going to 'do anything and everything' to achieve it immediately. To that end, no one will be recruited or admitted who has zero ability to graduate on time (no criticism of Jae intended) and criminals and thugs and need not apply. Out of respect for the departed I'm not going to mention names. Serves zero purpose at this time.
Wojo is expected to build a winning program with kids that properly reflect on Marquette and its values. That takes some time given where we started. When and if he succeeds, great. If he fails he'll be gone. There's no evidence that he's failing. On the contrary, I'd argue that his bosses see progress and expect more in the short term with a goal of being a 'power' when the new building opens in 2 seasons.
There you go again. Spinning things with a fair, balanced perspective. Your point is hinged, based in fact, and offers balance. The gall.
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Gotta be honest, MU's 14-17 this year, I'm at the minimum Real Chili Hot, and a fair or decent shot I'd vote gone. Pass for year 1 because Brent left the cupboard bare, progress last year, need to show progress again, and 14-17 would be a pretty significant step backwards.
That's fine but if you do that, you likely lose multiple players from the 2017 class and possibly some players to transfer. A coaching change could mean 4 or more years of irrelevance on top of the 4 we would already have.
You only fire when you no longer have faith that the person can build your program. If recruiting is still good and your still in the first five years, probably not a good idea to fire.
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Gotta be honest, Mu's 14-17 this year, I'm at the minimum Real Chili Hot, and a fair or decent shot I'd vote gone. Pass for year 1 because Brent left the cupboard bare, progress last year, need to show progress again, and 14-17 would be a pretty significant step backwards.
MU has great resources to recruit, better than 98% of the programs. Wojo and team work hard at it, but I wonder about Tillman and his girl friend, potentially pregnant,
when did Wojo know? As soon as I heard that it was over, sure it was Michigan St. and huge challenge, to recruit an in-state kid who grew up with MSU. Have to understand quickly in the process, as MU spent a great deal of time and money wooing a kid they were not going to get. Much like it is hard to get a kid out of Wisconsin
that is not going to MU or Wisconsin. Joey can take all the free trips he wants but will end up in state somewhere. My feeling you have to go after kids that do not have
a great affiliation with an in-state program or there are so many kids in NY or out East that Syracuse can not get them all. Cain was over recruited at Michigan, but if
they really wanted him, they could have had him. He felt hurt and unappreciated at Michigan, perfect timing for MU. John was easier, Minny weak coach, and Eke is
a project, and most projects are taken later, not early like MU did. They needed big bodies, fit perfectly, and he might be the best of the class. It would be nice to
get one more player so he could redshirt.
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One point is missing is when you take a one and done player to a school that does not replace a one and done player, like MU, it really hurts the program. Henry would
have been a great recruit if the team was experienced and he was the final cog on a good team. But just like Carlino, now Ellenson, your best player is gone, and your
starting over in some respects. This team you were not able to find a power forward to replace him. Puts the team behind the 8 ball again, and next year with a very
young inexperienced team upfront, might be the same problem. The turnaround might be 3 or 4 years from now. That does not do it for me.
Now losing Tillman might be better in the long run to secure Joey. Joey has a nice outside game, really a stretch 4. The question I always have about a kid up north,
are they athletic enough against Big East competition?
There's a lot of truth in what you say. Henry specifically was a 'mixed blessing' But of course you happily accept any McD AA. I'm really hoping that the 4/1 strategy works this year. As to Carlino, thank goodness he came. We would have won about 8 games that year without him. Talk about support drying up.
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There's a lot of truth in what you say. Henry specifically was a 'mixed blessing' But of course you happily accept any McD AA. I'm really hoping that the 4/1 strategy works this year. As to Carlino, thank goodness he came. We would have won about 8 games that year without him. Talk about support drying up.
Losing Tillman, I would think the last scholarship should be used in the spring to get an experienced front line player. I was in for Tillman and maybe French, but not
a tall skinny kid. You have already taken a project, you do not need 2. Not sure what Duane's feelings are about staying next year if he graduates, but not against having 12 players, and keeping one open always for a lucky grad player or 2.
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If you want to give the program the best opportunity for home court advantage..........wait for it.............GO TO THE GAMES AND CHEAR!
What's this "CHEAR" thing you're talking about?
Back in my days at the Metrodome, we simply turned on the air vents for a great advantage. Hope the new arena enables us to do something like that to alter the shots of MU's opponents.
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Losing Tillman, I would think the last scholarship should be used in the spring to get an experienced front line player. I was in for Tillman and maybe French, but not
a tall skinny kid. You have already taken a project, you do not need 2. Not sure what Duane's feelings are about staying next year if he graduates, but not against having 12 players, and keeping one open always for a lucky grad player or 2.
A friend of mine talked to a high major assistant coach from an out of state school about "the tall skinny kid" after the assistant coach saw him in July. The coach said if he had been in the U.S. prior to last summer, he'd be a top 60 recruit because of his knowledge of the game and his skill level.
Lets not forget that the father of this young man was underrecruited out of Louisville's Butler HS back in the early 1980's and is still the all-time leading scorer and rebounder at Toledo. The father has played and coached the last 30 years in Australia.
http://www.utrockets.com/news/2010/3/1/Ken_Epperson_Men_s_Basketball_1981_85_.aspx
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What's this "CHEAR" thing you're talking about?
Back in my days at the Metrodome, we simply turned on the air vents for a great advantage. Hope the new arena enables us to do something like that to alter the shots of MU's opponents.
perhaps i had too much "cheer" last night to spell cheer correctly.
You bring up a great point regarding HHH - screw trying to convince people the program is worthy of their appearance, we should just pump in artificial crowd noise
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A friend of mine talked to a high major assistant coach from an out of state school about "the tall skinny kid" after the assistant coach saw him in July. The coach said if he had been in the U.S. prior to last summer, he'd be a top 60 recruit because of his knowledge of the game and his skill level.
He already is top 60.
http://247sports.com/Player/Jacob-Epperson-45572373
I think it's funny that we've been kind of dismissive of epperson. He would be the highest rated recruit of our 2017 class and the 2nd highest rated of the Wojo era. But ratings aren't everything
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The seat would be much hotter if this were our Steve Wojo.
At least he went to jail tanline-free.
A 59-year-old New Jersey man is facing criminal charges after he was caught sunbathing on a public beach wearing nothing more than transparent plastic wrap for a bathing suit.
Beach Haven police said the man, Stephen Wojciehowski, managed to tan for two days on a Long Beach Island beach while wearing his homemade bikini, fully exposing his genitals.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/nj-man-arrested-wearing-plastic-wrap-bikini-beach-article-1.2813895
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Didn't know F*ckin's name was Stephen, hey?
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MU has great resources to recruit, better than 98% of the programs. Wojo and team work hard at it, but I wonder about Tillman and his girl friend, potentially pregnant,
when did Wojo know? As soon as I heard that it was over, sure it was Michigan St. and huge challenge, to recruit an in-state kid who grew up with MSU. Have to understand quickly in the process, as MU spent a great deal of time and money wooing a kid they were not going to get. Much like it is hard to get a kid out of Wisconsin
that is not going to MU or Wisconsin. Joey can take all the free trips he wants but will end up in state somewhere. My feeling you have to go after kids that do not have
a great affiliation with an in-state program or there are so many kids in NY or out East that Syracuse can not get them all. Cain was over recruited at Michigan, but if
they really wanted him, they could have had him. He felt hurt and unappreciated at Michigan, perfect timing for MU. John was easier, Minny weak coach, and Eke is
a project, and most projects are taken later, not early like MU did. They needed big bodies, fit perfectly, and he might be the best of the class. It would be nice to
get one more player so he could redshirt.
Yes, it was really obvious that Marquette had no chance at all to get Tillman. I guess that why no one was posting or reading this site Thursday and Friday.
It's often said that hindsight is 20/20, but the opposite is actually true. Hindsight is blind because once the outcome is known, all of the other potential outcomes are discounted and the real probability of their occurance is ignored and the actual outcome is then treated like it was a certainty all along when, in fact, it was not.
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Yes, it was really obvious that Marquette had no chance at all to get Tillman. I guess that why no one was posting or reading this site Thursday and Friday.
It's often said that hindsight is 20/20, but the opposite is actually true. Hindsight is blind because once the outcome is known, all of the other potential outcomes are discounted and the real probability of their occurance is ignored and the actual outcome is then treated like it was a certainty all along when, in fact, it was not.
Sounds good to me.
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Absolutely ridiculous statement. Yes there's a performance metric. No, we're not going to 'do anything and everything' to achieve it immediately. To that end, no one will be recruited or admitted who has zero ability to graduate on time (no criticism of Jae intended) and criminals and thugs and need not apply. Out of respect for the departed I'm not going to mention names. Serves zero purpose at this time.
Wojo is expected to build a winning program with kids that properly reflect on Marquette and its values. That takes some time given where we started. When and if he succeeds, great. If he fails he'll be gone. There's no evidence that he's failing. On the contrary, I'd argue that his bosses see progress and expect more in the short term with a goal of being a 'power' when the new building opens in 2 seasons.
Respectfully, Wojo is a great fit for MU and he certainly has delivered on the values part. But, let's also be real as the other candidates were Shaka, Cuonzo and Ben Howland. It is about winning.
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Absolutely ridiculous statement. Yes there's a performance metric. No, we're not going to 'do anything and everything' to achieve it immediately. To that end, no one will be recruited or admitted who has zero ability to graduate on time (no criticism of Jae intended) and criminals and thugs and need not apply. Out of respect for the departed I'm not going to mention names. Serves zero purpose at this time.
Wojo is expected to build a winning program with kids that properly reflect on Marquette and its values. That takes some time given where we started. When and if he succeeds, great. If he fails he'll be gone. There's no evidence that he's failing. On the contrary, I'd argue that his bosses see progress and expect more in the short term with a goal of being a 'power' when the new building opens in 2 seasons.
Lovell and Wojo are both corporate types. By definition Lovell will never enforce a performance metric on Wojo because doing so would give credence to a performance metric for Lovell as well.
Lovell has done a worse job than Wojo and is actually the one that should be on the hot seat. In case any one noticed we have gone down in the US News and in the initial Wall Street Journal ranking we are 158 tied with Illinois Wesleyan.
So in the meantime Lovell will continue to be in a state of denial and keep telling the loyalist alums that we are Duke North with Wojo and prosperity is just around the corner.
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Lovell and Wojo are both corporate types. By definition Lovell will never enforce a performance metric on Wojo because doing so would give credence to a performance metric for Lovell as well.
Lovell has done a worse job than Wojo and is actually the one that should be on the hot seat. In case any one noticed we have gone down in the US News and in the initial Wall Street Journal ranking we are 158 tied with Illinois Wesleyan.
So in the meantime Lovell will continue to be in a state of denial and keep telling the loyalist alums that we are Duke North with Wojo and prosperity is just around the corner.
:o
You're getting to be worse than Ners.
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Lovell and Wojo are both corporate types. By definition Lovell will never enforce a performance metric on Wojo because doing so would give credence to a performance metric for Lovell as well.
Lovell has done a worse job than Wojo and is actually the one that should be on the hot seat. In case any one noticed we have gone down in the US News and in the initial Wall Street Journal ranking we are 158 tied with Illinois Wesleyan.
So in the meantime Lovell will continue to be in a state of denial and keep telling the loyalist alums that we are Duke North with Wojo and prosperity is just around the corner.
And you know this exactly how? Have you ever even had a conversation with either Lovell or Wojo? Like I said, ridiculous.
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Respectfully, Wojo is a great fit for MU and he certainly has delivered on the values part. But, let's also be real as the other candidates were Shaka, Cuonzo and Ben Howland. It is about winning.
Howland was never a candidate. Shaka would have been great but we couldn't lure him. Cuonzo has won more but he walked into a much better situation and has already had off the court issues.
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And you know this exactly how? Have you ever even had a conversation with either Lovell or Wojo? Like I said, ridiculous.
He has conversations with everyone. Knows every player, every recruit, their families, many aau coaches, ACC presidents, many college coaches, and athletic directors on a first name basis.
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He has conversations with everyone. Knows every player, every recruit, their families, many aau coaches, ACC presidents, many college coaches, and athletic directors on a first name basis.
New name: Ners in NY.
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New name: Ners in NY.
Truth. Wonder when their beer summit was.
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And you know this exactly how? Have you ever even had a conversation with either Lovell or Wojo? Like I said, ridiculous.
No, I have not spoken to each gentleman, but as a contributing alum on the outside looking in, UMFNY's remarks do give me pause. The list of institutional gaffes (Jebbie'$ residence hall, mishandling of the insensitive Poly Sci prof's political stance, paltry endowment) should bear some weight, no?
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No, I have not spoken to each gentleman, but as a contributing alum on the outside looking in, UMFNY's remarks do give me pause. The list of institutional gaffes (Jebbie'$ residence hall, mishandling of the insensitive Poly Sci prof's political stance, paltry endowment) should bear some weight, no?
Are you even aware that the Jes Res was a designated gift to be used only for that purpose and nothing else?
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so this thread has gone total tinfoil hat.
Glow - you're doing yeoman's work, but you're yelling "there's no smoke, how can there be fire?" in a panicked movie house.
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Are you even aware that the Jes Res was a designated gift to be used only for that purpose and nothing else?
That and how dare Wojo not fix the endowment by now! He's had a whole two years!
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so this thread has gone total tinfoil hat.
Glow - you're doing yeoman's work, but you're yelling "there's no smoke, how can there be fire?" in a panicked movie house.
Excellent point.
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For those who think Wojo's seat should be hot this season if he doesn't make the tournament....what is your theory of the crime? He can't recruit talent, he can't coach, or both?
If it's that he can't recruit talent, resetting after this season means at least 3 or 4 years before the talent pool regenerates are you willing to wait that long? But if he can't recruit talent then he's got one thing, he can coach them up.
If it's coaching, how are you going to get a coach who can coach this team up from day 1? John Wooden isn't walking through that door so just about any coach is going to be an up and comer so the growing pains are going to be there whether it's Wojo or some other coach.....but at least at this point some if not most (hopefully) of the growing pains are behind Wojo.
If it's both....I don't know what to tell you, you might be bad at evaluating coaching.
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Lovell and Wojo are both corporate types. By definition Lovell will never enforce a performance metric on Wojo because doing so would give credence to a performance metric for Lovell as well.
Lovell has done a worse job than Wojo and is actually the one that should be on the hot seat. In case any one noticed we have gone down in the US News and in the initial Wall Street Journal ranking we are 158 tied with Illinois Wesleyan.
So in the meantime Lovell will continue to be in a state of denial and keep telling the loyalist alums that we are Duke North with Wojo and prosperity is just around the corner.
A lot of very interesting facts occur in your mind, and in your mind only.
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With fear of turning this thread into a large dumpster fire, what are the criticisms for Lovell that have some alumni and outside influencers already calling for his head?
I'm around students and campus all the time and from current students and recent graduates it is near universal praise for Lovell, but from some of the monied types (I'm clearly not one of them, just happen to know a couple) there is at minimum a disappointment in Lovell and at worst an active disapproval of his performance.
I do think MU is at a crossroads that the last 5 years have put us in, but given all the things both known publicly and unknown publicly that have gone on at the university in that time period, I think we're in a very good position to take the trending up path as opposed to the disaster path some imply. I think the basketball program is part of the upswing.....3 or 4 years ago there were a lot of opportunities for things to go very bad and change was made but as a result we set ourselves back a couple of years. I think we've gotten through the worst of the set back and are poised to reemerge on the national stage.
Thoughts?
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I think if Wojo would have gotten Kostas here, or signed all McD's 5 stars, we'd be fine.
Otherwise, total dumpster fire. I dunno why we are even allowing Wojo to still be here. Fire him before Madness to give us a chance.
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Absolutely ridiculous statement. Yes there's a performance metric. No, we're not going to 'do anything and everything' to achieve it immediately. To that end, no one will be recruited or admitted who has zero ability to graduate on time (no criticism of Jae intended) and criminals and thugs and need not apply. Out of respect for the departed I'm not going to mention names. Serves zero purpose at this time.
Wojo is expected to build a winning program with kids that properly reflect on Marquette and its values. That takes some time given where we started. When and if he succeeds, great. If he fails he'll be gone. There's no evidence that he's failing. On the contrary, I'd argue that his bosses see progress and expect more in the short term with a goal of being a 'power' when the new building opens in 2 seasons.
Wow Glow, your inner Chicos is shining through and he got banned.
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Wow Glow, your inner Chicos is shining through and he got banned.
? Is there any secret or anything inappropriate about what I said? That, among other things (like he was a total d*ck to coworkers) is a principal reason Buzz isn't here anymore. I don't think anyone is the least surprised by that. Have a nice day.
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If it's coaching, how are you going to get a coach who can coach this team up from day 1? John Wooden isn't walking through that door so just about any coach is going to be an up and comer so the growing pains are going to be there whether it's Wojo or some other coach.....but at least at this point some if not most (hopefully) of the growing pains are behind Wojo.
I personally don't know if he can be a good coach -- need more time to evaluate since we went down this path. His recruiting seems good on paper so far. It should be said though that Wojo is not earning 'up and comer money'.
About three years ago, I did (incorrectly) think that Marquette was beyond being the training ground for new coaches - our salary level is quite high and we had a track record of success that I thought we could leverage (after Crean re-built the program and Buzz continued it).
So for those saying "what did you expect, we need patience, this is a long term proposition" - you are right. We are in a complete rebuild situation not seen since the late 90's/ early 00's. I just never accepted that until ~9-12 months ago.
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Wow Glow, your inner Chicos is shining through and he got banned.
Whatever you read into Glow's statement is on you, not him. There were incidents under Buzz with players that were totally unacceptable for students at MU let alone ambassadors for the university like basketball players. Buzz was comfortable that those types of incidents might happen and then could be handled afterward, the university was not so they made a change. MU made a value judgement that character mattered in it's student athletes and Buzz spent a lot of time flirting with the line of appropriate character.
Buzz was about giving kids a chance to be successful, which is admirable and certainly something to be valued, but his risk tolerance for character issues was much higher than MU's so it was not a good match in the end. And it wasn't just the students that Buzz brought into the university, it was the students he wanted to bring in and the university had to say no.
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I personally don't know if he can be a good coach -- need more time to evaluate since we went down this path. His recruiting seems good on paper so far. It should be said though that Wojo is not earning 'up and comer money'.
About three years ago, I did (incorrectly) think that Marquette was beyond being the training ground for new coaches - our salary level is quite high and we had a track record of success that I thought we could leverage (after Crean re-built the program and Buzz continued it).
So for those saying "what did you expect, we need patience, this is a long term proposition" - you are right. We are in a complete rebuild situation not seen since the late 90's/ early 00's. I just never accepted that until ~9-12 months ago.
Buzz left the program really for him the right time, for MU at the bottom. Wojo came in, in April, first year, not his fault, no talent, brought in Carlino, good job there.
Did a good job in recruiting but Henry screwed him by not staying at least 2 years. So really starting over again, third year is like the first again. It seems he has talent right now, but no physical talent. Next year, young again. Got 3 out of the 4 kids he worked hard at, John, Cain and Hauser will be really good in 2 or 3 years
like a 6 or 7 year turnaround for MU.
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Buzz left the program really for him the right time, for MU at the bottom. Wojo came in, in April, first year, not his fault, no talent, brought in Carlino, good job there.
Did a good job in recruiting but Henry screwed him by not staying at least 2 years. So really starting over again, third year is like the first again. It seems he has talent right now, but no physical talent. Next year, young again. Got 3 out of the 4 kids he worked hard at, John, Cain and Hauser will be really good in 2 or 3 years
like a 6 or 7 year turnaround for MU.
Henry screwed nobody. Everybody knew from the moment he signed his LOI that if the opportunity was there, he would be a one-and-done.
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Whatever you read into Glow's statement is on you, not him. There were incidents under Buzz with players that were totally unacceptable for students at MU let alone ambassadors for the university like basketball players. Buzz was comfortable that those types of incidents might happen and then could be handled afterward, the university was not so they made a change. MU made a value judgement that character mattered in it's student athletes and Buzz spent a lot of time flirting with the line of appropriate character.
Buzz was about giving kids a chance to be successful, which is admirable and certainly something to be valued, but his risk tolerance for character issues was much higher than MU's so it was not a good match in the end. And it wasn't just the students that Buzz brought into the university, it was the students he wanted to bring in and the university had to say no.
Spot on.
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For those who think Wojo's seat should be hot this season if he doesn't make the tournament....what is your theory of the crime? He can't recruit talent, he can't coach, or both?
If it's that he can't recruit talent, resetting after this season means at least 3 or 4 years before the talent pool regenerates are you willing to wait that long? But if he can't recruit talent then he's got one thing, he can coach them up.
If it's coaching, how are you going to get a coach who can coach this team up from day 1? John Wooden isn't walking through that door so just about any coach is going to be an up and comer so the growing pains are going to be there whether it's Wojo or some other coach.....but at least at this point some if not most (hopefully) of the growing pains are behind Wojo.
If it's both....I don't know what to tell you, you might be bad at evaluating coaching.
It is hard to win with young talent and coaching young talent is mostly limited to teaching them the basics of college basketball. We will know more about how good Wojo is when Heldt, Sacar, Haanif and Carter have completed their senior seasons. That is the proper time to judge Wojo. Right now, if I were to question him on anything, it would be team building. Getting Henry was a major coo, but Henry left a huge gap at the power forward spot when he went pro. However, that should not of been a surprise and not having some kind of replacement for him will be the biggest reason for this team not making the tournament if they fail to do so this year. Wojo has worked hard to bring in talented players, but the team is unbalanced and that is why I question his team building. The 2017 class may alleviate some of this unbalance, but if you assume John is replacing Fischer we probably are still short at power forward as Eke may take a year or two to be an effective player at power forward. Wojo is trying to address the power forward situation, but he lost Young to Providence and Tillman to MSU. He could really use a win with French.
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Whatever you read into Glow's statement is on you, not him. There were incidents under Buzz with players that were totally unacceptable for students at MU let alone ambassadors for the university like basketball players. Buzz was comfortable that those types of incidents might happen and then could be handled afterward, the university was not so they made a change. MU made a value judgement that character mattered in it's student athletes and Buzz spent a lot of time flirting with the line of appropriate character.
Buzz was about giving kids a chance to be successful, which is admirable and certainly something to be valued, but his risk tolerance for character issues was much higher than MU's so it was not a good match in the end. And it wasn't just the students that Buzz brought into the university, it was the students he wanted to bring in and the university had to say no.
Largely agree, but I think the "character" issues have been a bit overblown when it comes to Buzz's players, mostly only after Buzz's departure.
I think Buzz's issues with the administration had way more to do with the conduct of Buzz and his staff than it did with the conduct of his players, the large majority of whom did - and continue to - represent Marquette well.
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Largely agree, but I think the "character" issues have been a bit overblown when it comes to Buzz's players, mostly only after Buzz's departure.
I think Buzz's issues with the administration had way more to do with the conduct of Buzz and his staff than it did with the conduct of his players, the large majority of whom did - and continue to - represent Marquette well.
I don't think the two can be so easily separated. Both were factors. I do know that MU wasn't on the cusp of paying the $10M buyout but the word 'handsprings in Zilber' was said directly to me when he left on his own.
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Largely agree, but I think the "character" issues have been a bit overblown when it comes to Buzz's players, mostly only after Buzz's departure.
I think Buzz's issues with the administration had way more to do with the conduct of Buzz and his staff than it did with the conduct of his players, the large majority of whom did - and continue to - represent Marquette well.
Let me re-label the issues not necessarily as character in nature (implying they are terrible, irredeemable people) but of poor decision making. You are correct some of the issues were talked about after the fact but that's when they became known. I think Buzz created a culture with his staff which trickled down to the players that allowed bad decision making to occur and that is what MU eventually had enough of. I also know for an absolutely fact that there were at least 3 recruits that Buzz wanted to go after hard and MU administration flat out said no way given issues (character, academics, etc).
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It is hard to win with young talent and coaching young talent is mostly limited to teaching them the basics of college basketball. We will know more about how good Wojo is when Heldt, Sacar, Haanif and Carter have completed their senior seasons. That is the proper time to judge Wojo. Right now, if I were to question him on anything, it would be team building. Getting Henry was a major coo, but Henry left a huge gap at the power forward spot when he went pro. However, that should not of been a surprise and not having some kind of replacement for him will be the biggest reason for this team not making the tournament if they fail to do so this year. Wojo has worked hard to bring in talented players, but the team is unbalanced and that is why I question his team building. The 2017 class may alleviate some of this unbalance, but if you assume John is replacing Fischer we probably are still short at power forward as Eke may take a year or two to be an effective player at power forward. Wojo is trying to address the power forward situation, but he lost Young to Providence and Tillman to MSU. He could really use a win with French.
The Henry thing really begs the question....do you build to your plan and ignore at top 20 talent that doesn't really fit into the plan and hope for the best or do you stick to the plan? There is no question that Henry was a square peg in an octagon hole for Wojo's plan but he took a chance he could retool on the fly and it didn't quite work out. I don't fault him for that which is why I have a lot more patience with him for the next couple of years than some.
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Let me re-label the issues not necessarily as character in nature (implying they are terrible, irredeemable people) but of poor decision making. You are correct some of the issues were talked about after the fact but that's when they became known. I think Buzz created a culture with his staff which trickled down to the players that allowed bad decision making to occur and that is what MU eventually had enough of. I also know for an absolutely fact that there were at least 3 recruits that Buzz wanted to go after hard and MU administration flat out said no way given issues (character, academics, etc).
OK, but to me at least, pinning the bad decisions of an 18-21 year-old college student on a coach is often unfair and a pretty slippery slope, especially if those "bad decisions" are relatively minor and rare (with one very notable exception, as far as the level of seriousness goes).
The fact is, 18-21 year-old men make stupid decisions all the time, whether they're college athletes or not. The amount of off-court trouble MU players were in during the Buzz era was far from exceptional when viewed across the college sports landscape, or even among college students in general. Hell, Tom Izzo is viewed as a saint in most places, and he's had far more players in serious trouble off court than Buzz ever did.
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The Henry thing really begs the question....do you build to your plan and ignore at top 20 talent that doesn't really fit into the plan and hope for the best or do you stick to the plan? There is no question that Henry was a square peg in an octagon hole for Wojo's plan but he took a chance he could retool on the fly and it didn't quite work out. I don't fault him for that which is why I have a lot more patience with him for the next couple of years than some.
You take the talent and hope you can replace him the following year. If Henry did not come to MU, how bad would they have been the second year under Wojo?
Unfortunately it might not work out.
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I don't think the two can be so easily separated. Both were factors. I do know that MU wasn't on the cusp of paying the $10M buyout but the word 'handsprings in Zilber' was said directly to me when he left on his own.
This sentiment from 'Zilber' is equally responsible for the length of the rebuild. The Pilarz, etc period was really damaging to the bball program.
If you have a problem with an employee you deal with it and the consequences (i.e. buyout, upset alums because you fired a coach coming off a S16 or S8). The passive aggressive stuff is just so damaging and makes you wonder if they came to the right conclusion to begin with.
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With fear of turning this thread into a large dumpster fire, what are the criticisms for Lovell that have some alumni and outside influencers already calling for his head?
I'm around students and campus all the time and from current students and recent graduates it is near universal praise for Lovell, but from some of the monied types (I'm clearly not one of them, just happen to know a couple) there is at minimum a disappointment in Lovell and at worst an active disapproval of his performance.
I do think MU is at a crossroads that the last 5 years have put us in, but given all the things both known publicly and unknown publicly that have gone on at the university in that time period, I think we're in a very good position to take the trending up path as opposed to the disaster path some imply. I think the basketball program is part of the upswing.....3 or 4 years ago there were a lot of opportunities for things to go very bad and change was made but as a result we set ourselves back a couple of years. I think we've gotten through the worst of the set back and are poised to reemerge on the national stage.
Thoughts?
My impression (no actual facts) is that the monied types don't get as much of a say as they used to with Father Wild. I think the fact that Lovell came from UWM is also an issue, I think Marquette alum often look down their noses at anything from UWM. I also wonder if the hiring of Wojo rubbed people the wrong way. It would not surprise me if the monied types wanted a "proven" head coach like Howland at the helm. Fortunately, Lovell is smarter than that and realizes how badly Howland fails the sniff test.
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For those who think Wojo's seat should be hot this season if he doesn't make the tournament....what is your theory of the crime? He can't recruit talent, he can't coach, or both?
If it's that he can't recruit talent, resetting after this season means at least 3 or 4 years before the talent pool regenerates are you willing to wait that long? But if he can't recruit talent then he's got one thing, he can coach them up.
If it's coaching, how are you going to get a coach who can coach this team up from day 1? John Wooden isn't walking through that door so just about any coach is going to be an up and comer so the growing pains are going to be there whether it's Wojo or some other coach.....but at least at this point some if not most (hopefully) of the growing pains are behind Wojo.
If it's both....I don't know what to tell you, you might be bad at evaluating coaching.
Coaching. Recruiting is good, with the exception that there's not a 4 on the roster this year - that's really quite inexcusable. But you have to translate those 4 and 5 start recruits into wins. I haven't seen it yet (20-13 last year doesn't count when 12 of the wins were against glorified WIAA D-I teams) and if we haven't seen it by April 4, 2017 (which would be Day 1098 btw) I think it's fair to say that the first hint of warmth should appear.
That being said - I'm much happier with a 7 seed and a second weekend, so let's hope that happens.
Those of you talking about the "we can't ditch Wojo because then we'll have to start over" seem to be flirting dangerously with the fallacy of sunk costs.
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Coaching. Recruiting is good, with the exception that there's not a 4 on the roster this year - that's really quite inexcusable. But you have to translate those 4 and 5 start recruits into wins. I haven't seen it yet (20-13 last year doesn't count when 12 of the wins were against glorified WIAA D-I teams) and if we haven't seen it by April 4, 2017 (which would be Day 1098 btw) I think it's fair to say that the first hint of warmth should appear.
That being said - I'm much happier with a 7 seed and a second weekend, so let's hope that happens.
Those of you talking about the "we can't ditch Wojo because then we'll have to start over" seem to be flirting dangerously with the fallacy of sunk costs.
Last year MU was 12-20 against the spread - I think that's a nice rough metric for coaching quality. We get four more of those wins, we're dancing and everyone is happy.
http://www.vegasinsider.com/college-basketball/against-the-spread/
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Last year MU was 12-20 against the spread - I think that's a nice rough metric for coaching quality. We get four more of those wins, we're dancing and everyone is happy.
http://www.vegasinsider.com/college-basketball/against-the-spread/
And 5-15 ATS at home. Sheesh.
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I haven't kept up with the thread and I've never met Lovell myself, but I know one person who has worked in administration at MU for quite some time and another who has worked in the athletic department for quite some time and both have more or less said he is "the man."
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Those of you talking about the "we can't ditch Wojo because then we'll have to start over" seem to be flirting dangerously with the fallacy of sunk costs.
Sunk cost fallacy is continuing something because you have already invested resources into it.
Not firing Wojo because it would delay the rebuild by another 4-5 years is not a sunk cost.
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Last year MU was 12-20 against the spread - I think that's a nice rough metric for coaching quality. We get four more of those wins, we're dancing and everyone is happy.
http://www.vegasinsider.com/college-basketball/against-the-spread/
So if we won by more or lost by less in 4 games we would have been dancing?
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Not getting Shaka is what set this program back to where it is. Obviously it's speculative but i'm willing to bet a large sum of cash that had Mrs Shaka not killed the deal at the last minute..this program would be in a much different place right now. They'd have made the dance last year with Shaka and probably wouldnt have had the transfers they had if he was here.
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Not getting Shaka is what set this program back to where it is. Obviously it's speculative but i'm willing to bet a large sum of cash that had Mrs Shaka not killed the deal at the last minute..this program would be in a much different place right now. They'd have made the dance last year with Shaka and probably wouldnt have had the transfers they had if he was here.
I'm sure Shayok and Hill would've given us a second look and one of Burton or Dawson may still be here but it's impossible to say. Not a chance that anybody is winning with the team that was here when Buzz left though.
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Not getting Shaka is what set this program back to where it is. Obviously it's speculative but i'm willing to bet a large sum of cash that had Mrs Shaka not killed the deal at the last minute..this program would be in a much different place right now. They'd have made the dance last year with Shaka and probably wouldnt have had the transfers they had if he was here.
And willing to bet a larger sum of money on something you'll never be able to measure is truly brilliant Einstein.
Some people on Marquette message boards are beyond stupid.
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And willing to bet a larger sum of money on something you'll never be able to measure is truly brilliant Einstein.
Some people on Marquette message boards are beyond stupid.
I would argue if I could. T
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Not getting Shaka is what set this program back to where it is. Obviously it's speculative but i'm willing to bet a large sum of cash that had Mrs Shaka not killed the deal at the last minute..this program would be in a much different place right now. They'd have made the dance last year with Shaka and probably wouldnt have had the transfers they had if he was here.
Define "much better place."
Shaka's team made a miracle run to a Final Four in a season in which they shouldn't have even made the NCAA Tournament while using the previous coach's players. Other than that he's been a first round exit 3 times and a 2nd round exit twice. No other S16 appearances.
Wojo will have us dancing further than Shaka has Texas dancing within the next 3 years.
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Billy Packer was right, hey?
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I'm sure Shayok and Hill would've given us a second look and one of Burton or Magic Dawson may still be here but it's impossible to say. Not a chance that anybody is winning with the team that was here when Buzz left though.
FIFY
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Lots of history has been rewritten in this thread. Truth is, we were in the midst of our most successful era in 40 years, the second most successful in our history. When a serious ALLEGATION of misconduct was mishandled by people in the athletic department, the BOT panicked and brought in a couple of people to clean up a mess that really wasn't one. They quickly realized their screw up and canned their hand picked president and AD - but unfortunately not before they had caused irreparable divisions between the university and our very successful basketball coach. A nuclear winter that has now lasted 3 years has been the result.
Those who defend the university for what became this clusterf*ck make me smile. "Buzz was a cheater", "The program was out of control", blah, blah, blah. "Other shoes will drop". Right.
Michael Hunt has covered sports in Milwaukee for 30 years. To say that he's never been an apologist for Marquette or any of its coaches would be an understatement. In fact, many here have complained that he's had a history of being too tough on us.
Here are some excerpts from his column after Pilarz and LW were fired in December 2013 (caps are mine):
"From the outside looking in, it may have seemed like the men's basketball program was a renegade outfit. With Pilarz's directive, Larry Williams was intent on ramping up academic requirements and discipline on the school's cash cow, which was in the midst of 3 consecutive Sweet 16 appearances.
Of course, higher standards for the department should always be the goal for every athletic director. But in the case of Marquette basketball, NOT A WHOLE LOT NEEDED TO BE FIXED.
From what I've witnessed being around the program for more than a year, Williams is THE MOST TRANSPARENT COLLEGE COACH I've dealt with in 3 decades.There have been discipline and rule hiccups, but in a business where hypocritical NCAA rules and outright cheaters cause college coaches to hide everything from the outside world, (Buzz) Williams, sometimes to his detriment, is an open book.
In fact, there are Marquette boosters who fear the Golden Eagles will never win another national title BECAUSE BUZZ WILLIAMS DOESN"T CHEAT.
Meanwhile, Buzz Williams remains one of the best coaches in the country who happens to win and WANTS TO DO THINGS THE RIGHT WAY at a tough place to recruit."
The administration brought in heavy artillery to extinguish an enemy that didn't exist. All they destroyed was the basketball program. Hopefully a Phoenix will rise from the ashes, but the wounds that brought us here were as unnecessary as they were self inflicted.
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? Is there any secret or anything inappropriate about what I said? That, among other things (like he was a total d*ck to coworkers) is a principal reason Buzz isn't here anymore. I don't think anyone is the least surprised by that. Have a nice day.
Not at all. I and what Chicos has posted before he got banned (for other reasons) are in complete agreement to what you said. Wojo and the admin want the right kind of player on and off the court to represent the face of the university rather than recruit to win at any cost which there are some on this board. I meant no offense and apologize.
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Last year MU was 12-20 against the spread - I think that's a nice rough metric for coaching quality.
So the quality of his coaching is dependent on what teams gamblers bet on? That makes no sense.
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Lots of history has been rewritten in this thread. Truth is, we were in the midst of our most successful era in 40 years, the second most successful in our history. When a serious ALLEGATION of misconduct was mishandled by people in the athletic department, the BOT panicked and brought in a couple of people to clean up a mess that really wasn't one. They quickly realized their screw up and canned their hand picked president and AD - but unfortunately not before they had caused irreparable divisions between the university and our very successful basketball coach. A nuclear winter that has now lasted 3 years has been the result.
Those who defend the university for what became this clusterf*ck make me smile. "Buzz was a cheater", "The program was out of control", blah, blah, blah. "Other shoes will drop". Right.
Michael Hunt has covered sports in Milwaukee for 30 years. To say that he's never been an apologist for Marquette or any of its coaches would be an understatement. In fact, many here have complained that he's had a history of being too tough on us.
Here are some excerpts from his column after Pilarz and LW were fired in December 2013 (caps are mine):
"From the outside looking in, it may have seemed like the men's basketball program was a renegade outfit. With Pilarz's directive, Larry Williams was intent on ramping up academic requirements and discipline on the school's cash cow, which was in the midst of 3 consecutive Sweet 16 appearances.
Of course, higher standards for the department should always be the goal for every athletic director. But in the case of Marquette basketball, NOT A WHOLE LOT NEEDED TO BE FIXED.
From what I've witnessed being around the program for more than a year, Williams is THE MOST TRANSPARENT COLLEGE COACH I've dealt with in 3 decades.There have been discipline and rule hiccups, but in a business where hypocritical NCAA rules and outright cheaters cause college coaches to hide everything from the outside world, (Buzz) Williams, sometimes to his detriment, is an open book.
In fact, there are Marquette boosters who fear the Golden Eagles will never win another national title BECAUSE BUZZ WILLIAMS DOESN"T CHEAT.
Meanwhile, Buzz Williams remains one of the best coaches in the country who happens to win and WANTS TO DO THINGS THE RIGHT WAY at a tough place to recruit."
The administration brought in heavy artillery to extinguish an enemy that didn't exist. All they destroyed was the basketball program. Hopefully a Phoenix will rise from the ashes, but the wounds that brought us here were as unnecessary as they were self inflicted.
That being said Buzz's HS recruits have been unremarkable.
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Quoting a Michael Hunt article? Cmon Lenny, you know better.
That necessary joke aside, I don't necessarily disagree. Buzz wasn't a cheater. He was great for Marquette. But that doesn't mean there weren't issues.
Admitting players like Jae and Todd is questionable. Some people have no issue with it, others do. I see both sides. I don't fault Buzz for recruiting them, and I don't fault the university for not allowing him to continue that.
Buzz's annual flirting with every open job on the market is also questionable. On one hand, he's playing the game and advocating for himself. Every year he managed to squeeze more money out of Marquette. I had no issues with that when he was winning. But when he pulled the same stunt after his last season...that's a little shifty. You don't ask for a raise after a crappy year.
You can call it an allegation all you want but the sexual assault did occur and there were blunders by the athletic departments management of it. Keep in mind that conduct records are protected by ferpa but there were some sudden transfers.
Even with all these issues, Buzz was still good for Marquette and I will always be grateful for what he did as coach. But that doesn't mean the university didn't need to respond. Could they have done better? Absolutely. Could Buzz have handled it better? Absolutely. But he didn't, he decided to take his ball and play in the boondocks. I still wish him well. But I care about the name on the front of the jersey, not the back.
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That being said Buzz's HS recruits have been unremarkable.
Who cares? His TEAMS (as long as he had the administration's backing) were.
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Knowing what I know about the alleged sexual assault incident, if that would have happened in today's post-Baylor environment, Buzz would be lucky to still have a job.
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Quoting a Michael Hunt article? Cmon Lenny, you know better.
That being said, I don't necessarily disagree. Buzz wasn't a cheater. He was great for Marquette. But that doesn't mean there weren't issues.
Admitting players like Jae and Todd is questionable. Some people have no issue with it, others do. I see both sides. I don't fault Buzz for recruiting them, and I don't fault the university for not allowing him to continue that.
Buzz's annual flirting with every open job on the market is also questionable. On one hand, he's playing the game and advocating for himself. Every year he managed to squeeze more money out of Marquette. I had no issues with that when he was winning. But when he pulled the same stunt after his last season...that's a little shifty. You don't ask for a raise after a crappy year.
You can call it an allegation all you want but the sexual assault did occur and there were blunders by the athletic departments management of it. Keep in mind that conduct records are protected by ferpa but there were some sudden transfers.
Even with all these issues, Buzz was still good for Marquette and I will always be grateful for what he did as coach. But that doesn't mean the university didn't need to respond. Could they have done better? Absolutely. Could Buzz have handled it better? Absolutely. But he didn't, he decided to take his ball and play in the boondocks. I still wish him well. But I care about the name on the front of the jersey, not the back.
Not to mention the assault issue wasn't the only issue around integrity(coaching staff and players) that happened under Buzz's watch.
I'm not making this all out that Buzz was terrible or that MU had no role...both sides sucked to some degree or another (and who was the worse of the two is a debate that will fuel Scoop off-season for eons) and as a result there was a smoking hole in the basketball program when Wojo took over.
Either way the hole was created and now Lovell/Wojo have to crawl out of the hole and return us to our former glory.
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Knowing what I know about the alleged sexual assault incident, if that would have happened in today's post-Baylor environment, Buzz would be lucky to still have a job.
A lot has changed since 2011. A lot more expectations on universities
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Quoting a Michael Hunt article? Cmon Lenny, you know better.
That necessary joke aside, I don't necessarily disagree. Buzz wasn't a cheater. He was great for Marquette. But that doesn't mean there weren't issues.
Admitting players like Jae and Todd is questionable. Some people have no issue with it, others do. I see both sides. I don't fault Buzz for recruiting them, and I don't fault the university for not allowing him to continue that.
Buzz's annual flirting with every open job on the market is also questionable. On one hand, he's playing the game and advocating for himself. Every year he managed to squeeze more money out of Marquette. I had no issues with that when he was winning. But when he pulled the same stunt after his last season...that's a little shifty. You don't ask for a raise after a crappy year.
You can call it an allegation all you want but the sexual assault did occur and there were blunders by the athletic departments management of it. Keep in mind that conduct records are protected by ferpa but there were some sudden transfers.
Even with all these issues, Buzz was still good for Marquette and I will always be grateful for what he did as coach. But that doesn't mean the university didn't need to respond. Could they have done better? Absolutely. Could Buzz have handled it better? Absolutely. But he didn't, he decided to take his ball and play in the boondocks. I still wish him well. But I care about the name on the front of the jersey, not the back.
Perfectly stated.
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You take the talent and hope you can replace him the following year. If Henry did not come to MU, how bad would they have been the second year under Wojo?
Unfortunately it might not work out.
I never said that Wojo should not of taken Henry. What I said he should of been prepared for him leaving early. No different than Crean not being prepared for Wade leaving early. At least Crean said he made a mistake with not being prepared for that scenario.
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Quoting a Michael Hunt article? Cmon Lenny, you know better.
That necessary joke aside, I don't necessarily disagree. Buzz wasn't a cheater. He was great for Marquette. But that doesn't mean there weren't issues.
Admitting players like Jae and Todd is questionable. Some people have no issue with it, others do. I see both sides. I don't fault Buzz for recruiting them, and I don't fault the university for not allowing him to continue that.
Buzz's annual flirting with every open job on the market is also questionable. On one hand, he's playing the game and advocating for himself. Every year he managed to squeeze more money out of Marquette. I had no issues with that when he was winning. But when he pulled the same stunt after his last season...that's a little shifty. You don't ask for a raise after a crappy year.
You can call it an allegation all you want but the sexual assault did occur and there were blunders by the athletic departments management of it. Keep in mind that conduct records are protected by ferpa but there were some sudden transfers.
Even with all these issues, Buzz was still good for Marquette and I will always be grateful for what he did as coach. But that doesn't mean the university didn't need to respond. Could they have done better? Absolutely. Could Buzz have handled it better? Absolutely. But he didn't, he decided to take his ball and play in the boondocks. I still wish him well. But I care about the name on the front of the jersey, not the back.
1.He was the Marquette beat writer at the time and has 3 decades of experience covering college sports. He had more access to the program than you or any other poster could hope to - so laugh all you want, but what's your point?
2. Al's teams were full of kids you'd call high risk. Crean successful ones, too. If MU aspires to compete at the highest level, that's a given. The "both sides" argument is really whether to compete at that level or not.
3. Buzz wanted out after his last season enough to leave almost immediately and for less money. The idea that he was in negotiations for a raise at a job he wanted desperately to leave is laughable.
4. You don't know and I don't know whether sexual assault occurred. you weren't there and neither was I. Regardless, other than rumors/speculation, what's buzz's culpability here?
5. Agreed
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I never said that Wojo should not of taken Henry. What I said he should of been prepared for him leaving early. No different than Crean not being prepared for Wade leaving early. At least Crean said he made a mistake with not being prepared for that scenario.
He tried with grad transfers and that failed again this year trying to get Gill or Young. It is to bad but Reinhardt might be a better option any way because he
will play a stretch 4. I assume looking at the team, he looks like the biggest guard they have, with Hauser. Both will play the 4. I hope Sam starts and gets lots
of playing time.
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1.He was the Marquette beat writer at the time and has 3 decades of experience covering college sports. He had more access to the program than you or any other poster could hope to - so laugh all you want, but what's your point?
2. Al's teams were full of kids you'd call high risk. Crean successful ones, too. If MU aspires to compete at the highest level, that's a given. The "both sides" argument is really whether to compete at that level or not.
3. Buzz want out after his last season enough to leave almost immediately and for less money. The idea that he was in negotiations for a raise at a job he wanted desperately to leave is laughable.
4. You don't know and I don't know whether sexual assault occurred. you weren't there and neither was I. Regardless, other than rumors/speculation, what's buzz's culpability here?
5. Agreed
Regarding #4, it is very likely that he committed actions that would have put Marquette in violation of Title IX.
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Regarding #4, it is very likely that he committed actions that would have put Marquette in violation of Title IX.
Is that a fire-able offense at most universities?
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3. Buzz want out after his last season enough to leave almost immediately and for less money. The idea that he was in negotiations for a raise at a job he wanted desperately to leave is laughable.
Have you forgotten the discussionof Buzz's Virgina Tech contract? He has them by the short hairs, he's got total control of the program and he basically can't be let go.
And how long was he getting less money? One year? Don't kid yourself, he left for a better deal.
Thanks for bringing the Hunt article into the discussion, it brought several things into perspective.
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Not to mention the assault issue wasn't the only issue around integrity(coaching staff and players) that happened under Buzz's watch.
I'm not making this all out that Buzz was terrible or that MU had no role...both sides sucked to some degree or another (and who was the worse of the two is a debate that will fuel Scoop off-season for eons) and as a result there was a smoking hole in the basketball program when Wojo took over.
Either way the hole was created and now Lovell/Wojo have to crawl out of the hole and return us to our former glory.
I hope that Lovell/Wojo can crawl out of the hole that Pilarz/LW dug at the direction of the BOT, but here's the thing...
Marquette has only been a force in college basketball when it's had players and coaches with chips on their shoulders. Kids from questionable schools and backgrounds, kids from underprivileged neighborhoods, kids that are risky. And coaches and administrators willing to take those risks. Maybe Lovell/Wojo are already taking those risks. I hope so, because there is nothing in Marquette's basketball DNA that suggests the "Duke North" model is a successful one.
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Have you forgotten the discussionof Buzz's Virgina Tech contract? He has them by the short hairs, he's got total control of the program and he basically can't be let go.
And how long was he getting less money? One year? Don't kid yourself, he left for a better deal.
Thanks for bringing the Hunt article into the discussion, it brought several things into perspective.
Good point - there has been so much hate on Buzz leaving and much of that hate has concerned him leaving for "less money". But in fact (as you pointed out) it was for a much better deal.
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Is that a fire-able offense at most universities?
It can be. Considering what happened at Baylor, if the situation repeated itself today, it might have been.
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I hope that Lovell/Wojo can crawl out of the hole that Pilarz/LW dug at the direction of the BOT, but here's the thing...
Marquette has only been a force in college basketball when it's had players and coaches with chips on their shoulders. Kids from questionable schools and backgrounds, kids from underprivileged neighborhoods, kids that are risky. And coaches and administrators willing to take those risks. Maybe Lovell/Wojo are already taking those risks. I hope so, because there is nothing in Marquette's basketball DNA that suggests the "Duke North" model is a successful one.
Nonetheless, "Duke North" is the road Marquette is now on. There has indeed been a sea change, kimo sabe.
Not only do I agree with your description of how Marquette established its basketball program as a nationally relevant one, I'd argue that the "rebel" and "outsider" mystique was a big part of the ...er charm of being a Marquette fan.
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I hope that Lovell/Wojo can crawl out of the hole that Pilarz/LW dug at the direction of the BOT, but here's the thing...
Marquette has only been a force in college basketball when it's had players and coaches with chips on their shoulders. Kids from questionable schools and backgrounds, kids from underprivileged neighborhoods, kids that are risky. And coaches and administrators willing to take those risks. Maybe Lovell/Wojo are already taking those risks. I hope so, because there is nothing in Marquette's basketball DNA that suggests the "Duke North" model is a successful one.
Explain the Kevin O'Neill era then.
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Not to mention the assault issue wasn't the only issue around integrity(coaching staff and players) that happened under Buzz's watch.
I'm not making this all out that Buzz was terrible or that MU had no role.
That's fair, but when I see things like "criminals and thugs need not apply," I don't like it. I took that as meaning Buzz's guys were thugs and criminals. There were a couple bad apples in an overall solid group of guys. That can happen when you focus on trying to save kids from tough backgrounds. When it worked out, Buzz unlocked things in some of those players that made them great.
Wojo would rather shed that baggage and focus on hoops. And I hope it works out for them, but so far the result has been two pretty soft Marquette teams. I'm hoping the staff can strike some balance and find a few tough SOBs. Cain was a good start, French would be even better.
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That's fair, but when I see things like "criminals and thugs need not apply," I get uncomfortable with it. There were a couple bad apples in an overall solid group of guys. That can happen when you focus on trying to save kids from tough backgrounds. When it worked out, Buzz unlocked things in some of those players that made them great.
To be honest, you can get "bad apples" no matter the background of the players.
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Explain the Kevin O'Neill era then.
Seriously? While Buzz had greater quanity, O'Neill would definitely be my pick for better quality of wacky stuff said. At a reception after a DePaul game, I heard O'Neill say that after the way Robb Logtermann played, O'Neill was wondering if Logtermann had been smoking weed.
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Seriously? While Buzz had greater quanity, O'Neill would definitely be my pick for better quality of wacky stuff said. I at a reception after a DePaul game, I heard O'Neill say that after the way Robb Logtermann played, O'Neill was wondering if Logtermann had been smoking weed.
My point is that ONeill recruited players from very traditional backgrounds.
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Nonetheless, "Duke North" is the road Marquette is now on. There has indeed been a sea change, kimo sabe.
Not only do I agree with your description of how Marquette established its basketball program as a nationally relevant one, I'd argue that the "rebel" and "outsider" mystique was a big part of the ...er charm of being a Marquette fan.
So Hiroshima is here, and the SLUing of the basketball program is a fait accompli?
If true, I won't be one of those sorry ass fans celebrating our mediocrity by bragging about the team's cumulative GPA or SAT scores - I live 20 minutes from Evanston and have watched Northwestern fans do the same for 40 years.It's boring and laughable, but at least they have the excuse that they don't know any better. We do.
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Is that a fire-able offense at most universities?
Is or should be? The former was the norm we are moving toward the latter now (which is a good thing IMO)
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It is to bad but Reinhardt might be a better option any way because he will play a stretch 4.
FWIW, calling Katin a "stretch 4" is stretching too far. He's a guard who may need to log minutes at "the 4"
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That's fair, but when I see things like "criminals and thugs need not apply," I don't like it. I took that as meaning Buzz's guys were thugs and criminals. There were a couple bad apples in an overall solid group of guys. That can happen when you focus on trying to save kids from tough backgrounds. When it worked out, Buzz unlocked things in some of those players that made them great.
Wojo would rather shed that baggage and focus on hoops. And I hope it works out for them, but so far the result has been two pretty soft Marquette teams. I'm hoping the staff can strike some balance and find a few tough SOBs. Cain was a good start, French would be even better.
I don't like it either and I don't think the vast majority of the MU fans would espouse that line of thinking either.
However, softness and the players background aren't directly correlated. I think it's more a focus of coaching style and player experience. We'll see what Wojo can do in year 3 as all of the players are his (either recruited or re-recruited) and should be more of a match to his style than playing with Buzz's leftovers. I throw out the first two years, let's see what he does from a tough perspective this year and decide.
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Is or should be? The former was the norm we are moving toward the latter now (which is a good thing IMO)
I was asking "is it" (and also thanks Sultan for the response)
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That's fair, but when I see things like "criminals and thugs need not apply," I don't like it. I took that as meaning Buzz's guys were thugs and criminals. There were a couple bad apples in an overall solid group of guys. That can happen when you focus on trying to save kids from tough backgrounds. When it worked out, Buzz unlocked things in some of those players that made them great.
Wojo would rather shed that baggage and focus on hoops. And I hope it works out for them, but so far the result has been two pretty soft Marquette teams. I'm hoping the staff can strike some balance and find a few tough SOBs. Cain was a good start, French would be even better.
I certainly had no desire to paint with too broad a brush. Certainly many of Buzz' recruits were outstanding kids. Anyway, my main point was that going forward standards (behavior OR academic) weren't going to be relaxed for the sole purpose of winning basketball games and it's clear that the line moved away from where Buzz wanted it to be. That doesn't make anyone right or wrong, just different. Honestly, as much as we all love Jae, I think his admittance when graduation was impossible during his years here really had an impact and got them thinking about other things on the slippery slope, some of which should be considered intolerable at any institution.
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FWIW, calling Katin a "stretch 4" is stretching too far. He's a guard who may need to log minutes at "the 4"
Stretch 4 to me just means he is a 2 or 3 playing out of position, and can shot the 3, ie. Lazar and Crowder.
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I certainly had no desire to paint with too broad a brush. Certainly many of Buzz' recruits were outstanding kids. Anyway, my main point was that going forward standards (behavior OR academic) weren't going to be relaxed for the sole purpose of winning basketball games and it's clear that the line moved away from where Buzz wanted it to be. That doesn't make anyone right or wrong, just different. Honestly, as much as we all love Jae, I think his admittance when graduation was impossible during his years here really had an impact and got them thinking about other things on the slippery slope, some of which should be considered intolerable at any institution.
I broadly agree with your sentiment except the last part - just because that line of thinking should disqualify taking in a one-and-done and should make everyone feel really really bad about 1-year renewable scholarships (in a practical sense not a theoretical).
No reason to pick and choose which NCAA restrictions we choose to live above.
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2. Al's teams were full of kids you'd call high risk. Crean successful ones, too. If MU aspires to compete at the highest level, that's a given. The "both sides" argument is really whether to compete at that level or not.
That's a massive stretch.
DWade had some academic issues, but was/is a quality guy and certainly not a "high risk."
Who else are you calling "high risk?" Novak? Diener? Wes Matthews? Dom James? McNeal? Dan Fitzgerald?
What made those guys risky?
3. Buzz wanted out after his last season enough to leave almost immediately and for less money. The idea that he was in negotiations for a raise at a job he wanted desperately to leave is laughable.
I think he was referring to Buzz's name being mentioned prominently at places like Minnesota after the 2012-13 season.
4. You don't know and I don't know whether sexual assault occurred. you weren't there and neither was I. Regardless, other than rumors/speculation, what's buzz's culpability here?
Team meeting.
I agree with you that a lot of the character issues raised since Buzz left are nonsense, but that was a huge misstep on his part, and if it had occurred in 2016 instead of 2011, Buzz might be the hoops version of Art Briles.
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4. You don't know and I don't know whether sexual assault occurred. you weren't there and neither was I. Regardless, other than rumors/speculation, what's buzz's culpability here?
How about Facebook posts directly from the victim? Enough proof for me. Jeeze how any alum can still claim that it may or may not have happened is beyond me. Is your whole outlook on life essentially cover your eyes and ears so that you can claim "well maybe it didn't happen, I don't know"
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How about Facebook posts directly from the victim? Enough proof for me. Jeeze how any alum can still claim that it may or may not have happened is beyond me. Is your whole outlook on life essentially cover your eyes and ears so that you can claim "well maybe it didn't happen, I don't know"
I'm not sure what you mean. I never saw the post that you refer to, but if you're saying that because someone posts something on Facebook it's gospel and not just one version that seems either naive or prejudiced.
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That's a massive stretch.
DWade had some academic issues, but was/is a quality guy and certainly not a "high risk."
Who else are you calling "high risk?" Novak? Diener? Wes Matthews? Dom James? McNeal? Dan Fitzgerald?
What made those guys risky?
The team that made Crean's coaching bones (and won all but 1 of the NCAA tournament games he won in 9 years at MU) was led by a non qualifier (who had an absent Father and a drug addicted Mother) and a product of the MPS system who was the SEC's newcomer of the year at Mississippi St (yech) who had fallen deep into his coach's doghouse there before transferring to Marquette.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not disparaging either one of those guys. In fact, I jumped for joy over Wade's commitment and was ecstatic over the Jackson transfer. They were both risky, though.
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Explain the Kevin O'Neill era then.
The O'Neill "era" was one good year and one pretty good year. One great Wisconsin recruiting class with 2 bigs followed by Tony Miller. To me, more outlier than era.
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I broadly agree with your sentiment except the last part - just because that line of thinking should disqualify taking in a one-and-done and should make everyone feel really really bad about 1-year renewable scholarships (in a practical sense not a theoretical).
No reason to pick and choose which NCAA restrictions we choose to live above.
We don't disagree at all. HE absolutely came in with the ability to graduate during his allotted time on campus. The fact that he (or Vander) chose to leave early is no reflection on Marquette's education mission. But when Jae was brought in for the purpose of playing basketball without an ability to achieve the university's education objective before he ran out of eligibility, that was ultimately deemed to be contrary to the mission.
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We don't disagree at all. HE absolutely came in with the ability to graduate during his allotted time on campus. The fact that he (or Vander) chose to leave early is no reflection on Marquette's education mission. But when Jae was brought in for the purpose of playing basketball without an ability to achieve the university's education objective before he ran out of eligibility, that was ultimately deemed to be contrary to the mission.
I meant in the practical sense (HE was not going stay 4 years - nor are most 1/2 and done players). Similarly cutting a player is running contrary to that mission as well - denying a kid a chance at an education at MU because of their bball playing ability. I personally think all kids should get that chance to use these schools for bball as long as they meet NCAA requirements.
I do see where you are coming from though and respect it -- just dont feel the same way.
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We don't disagree at all. HE absolutely came in with the ability to graduate during his allotted time on campus. The fact that he (or Vander) chose to leave early is no reflection on Marquette's education mission. But when Jae was brought in for the purpose of playing basketball without an ability to achieve the university's education objective before he ran out of eligibility, that was ultimately deemed to be contrary to the mission.
Not to mention all the mental and philosophical gymnastics we had to do to even get him admitted.
Jae is a great talent and human being, but he was a mercenary rental who turned out to be a really good player.
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We don't disagree at all. HE absolutely came in with the ability to graduate during his allotted time on campus. The fact that he (or Vander) chose to leave early is no reflection on Marquette's education mission. But when Jae was brought in for the purpose of playing basketball without an ability to achieve the university's education objective before he ran out of eligibility, that was ultimately deemed to be contrary to the mission.
I call BS. Everybody involved at Marquette from Lovell on down knew that Henry was adios the minute his freshman season ended. I doubt if he even bothered to finish the spring semester. Jae may not have had a chance to complete his degree before his eligibility was finished, but he's light year's closer to a degree than Henry - hell, he was closer to a degree when he arrived than Henry was when he left. Their attitude drips with elitism and hypocrisy with a hint of racism. Cura Personalis, indeed.
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The O'Neill "era" was one good year and one pretty good year. One great Wisconsin recruiting class with 2 bigs followed by Tony Miller. To me, more outlier than era.
Lets' not forget Mike Deane had four straight 20-win seasons and two NCAA appearances largely (or in some cases entirely) with O'Neill players.
The complete antithesis of inheriting a bare cupboard.
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I'm not sure what you mean. I never saw the post that you refer to, but if you're saying that because someone posts something on Facebook it's gospel and not just one version that seems either naive or prejudiced.
I'm saying I know who it was and she deserves better than someone questioning her integrity. She is extremely vocal on FB about being a survivor and rightfully so. She nor the other girl that it happened to do not deserve to be questioned all this time later because some people are some enamored with the success we had they refuse to believe that buzz and his players weren't infallible.
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I call BS. Everybody involved at Marquette from Lovell on down knew that Henry was adios the minute his freshman season ended. I doubt if he even bothered to finish the spring semester. Jae may not have had a chance to complete his degree before his eligibility was finished, but he's light year's closer to a degree than Henry - hell, he was closer to a degree when he arrived than Henry was when he left. Their attitude drips with elitism and hypocrisy with a hint of racism. Cura Personalis, indeed.
I don't think you realize just how bad's Jae's transcript was prior to coming to MU. Not a reflection on his intelligence or capabilities but your statement that Jae was closer to a degree before he transferred here than Henry after a year is flat out false.
You may have a point that they are similarly disingenuous towards education. Henry's situation is certainly more "justifiable" to an outside audience than Jae's is even though both result in no degree.
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The team that made Crean's coaching bones (and won all but 1 of the NCAA tournament games he won in 9 years at MU) was led by a non qualifier (who had an absent Father and a drug addicted Mother) and a product of the MPS system who was the SEC's newcomer of the year at Mississippi St (yech) who had fallen deep into his coach's doghouse there before transferring to Marquette.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not disparaging either one of those guys. In fact, I jumped for joy over Wade's commitment and was ecstatic over the Jackson transfer. They were both risky, though.
Dwyane didn't have an absent father. His father largely raised him.
I disagree on the level of risk but for sake of argument we're still only talking about two players who played a total of three seasons combined. To me, that hardly supports the statement that Crean's successful teams were full of high risk players.
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I call BS. Everybody involved at Marquette from Lovell on down knew that Henry was adios the minute his freshman season ended. I doubt if he even bothered to finish the spring semester. Jae may not have had a chance to complete his degree before his eligibility was finished, but he's light year's closer to a degree than Henry - hell, he was closer to a degree when he arrived than Henry was when he left. Their attitude drips with elitism and hypocrisy with a hint of racism. Cura Personalis, indeed.
Agree 100%. Hey, maybe the plan was for Jae earn his degree in 3 years; redshirt a year, then play 2 years. But somehow the directions got all fouled up, and one thing lead to another...
Whew! Now that those mental gymnastics are complete I can feel good about Jae Crowder again.
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Dwyane didn't have an absent father. His father largely raised him.
I disagree on the level of risk but for sake of argument we're still only talking about two players who played a total of three seasons combined. To me, that hardly supports the statement that Crean's successful teams were full of high risk players.
My mistake. Dwyane's father wasn't absent. But Dwyane "absented" himself from him and pretty much lived at his girlfriend's house.
Without Wade (and later Jackson) there is no final four, just five consecutive season of futility to kick off the "Crean era". Doubt there would have been a sixth.
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FWIW, calling Katin a "stretch 4" is stretching too far. He's a guard who may need to log minutes at "the 4"
Agreed. Calling Dan Fitzgerald a "stretch 4" was a stretch, as well. The term actually fit Steve Novak, in my opinion. And Henry, for the most part.
It's not just about height and outside shooting ability. (That's the reason for the "stretch" part, as in "stretch the floor.") A stretch 4 also has to be able to handle the duties of a traditional 4 — which include hauling down considerably more than 2 rebounds a game.
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Lets' not forget Mike Deane had four straight 20-win seasons and two NCAA appearances largely (or in some cases entirely) with O'Neill players.
The complete antithesis of inheriting a bare cupboard.
Deane went to the NIT with O'Nell's holdovers. In year 2, with his very own Aaron Hutchins leading the way, he went to the NCAAs.
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I don't think you realize just how bad's Jae's transcript was prior to coming to MU. Not a reflection on his intelligence or capabilities but your statement that Jae was closer to a degree before he transferred here than Henry after a year is flat out false.
You may have a point that they are similarly disingenuous towards education. Henry's situation is certainly more "justifiable" to an outside audience than Jae's is even though both result in no degree.
I guess you're privy to student's transcripts. I'm not. But I'll bet anything Jae left school closer to a degree than Henry did - and everyone at Marquette including President Lovell knew that was going to be the case.
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Deane went to the NIT with O'Nell's holdovers. In year 2, with his very own Aaron Hutchins leading the way, he went to the NCAAs.
Hutchins was an O'Neill recruit.
As were Pieper, Crawford, Eford, McCaskill and Abraham.
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I certainly had no desire to paint with too broad a brush. Certainly many of Buzz' recruits were outstanding kids. Anyway, my main point was that going forward standards (behavior OR academic) weren't going to be relaxed for the sole purpose of winning basketball games and it's clear that the line moved away from where Buzz wanted it to be. That doesn't make anyone right or wrong, just different. Honestly, as much as we all love Jae, I think his admittance when graduation was impossible during his years here really had an impact and got them thinking about other things on the slippery slope, some of which should be considered intolerable at any institution.
Fair enough, appreciate the clarification.
I disagree in Jae's case. His first school losing accreditation was something he had no control over. And the prior administration singling him out was wrong as well.
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You may have a point that they are similarly disingenuous towards education. Henry's situation is certainly more "justifiable" to an outside audience than Jae's is even though both result in no degree.
Lovell was 100% behind MU bringing Henry in, knowing full well he was gone after a year. I'm still trying to see how this is more justifiable beyond One and Done = Good, JUCO = Bad.
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Lovell was 100% behind MU bringing Henry in, knowing full well he was gone after a year. I'm still trying to see how this is more justifiable beyond One and Done = Good, JUCO = Bad.
Are there APR issues to consider? I mean if you bring someone in knowing full well they can't graduate within their eligibility "window," is that a problem?
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While I think we've all stated our positions on this and in fact Jae is a fantastic guy from a wonderful family that I got to know a little bit down in Louisville, there's a big difference between his situation vs. a standard one and done.
'Can't graduate vs. likely won't graduate' as defined by the NCAA requirement to use 4 years of eligibility in 5 years baring extreme circumstances. Simply put, that's where MU has now drawn the line. Agree or not, it's a defensible position to take. It was viewed that the former involved 'using' a person for basketball purposes. Lots of kids leave college every year and don't finish by their own choice. Heck, Scott Walker even did it.
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It was viewed that the former involved 'using' a person for basketball purposes.
Jae actually used us....
IMO if this kind of stuff worries schools they should find ways (like MU has done in the past I believe) - to actually help these kids. i.e. Free tuition to graduate in an orderly period (didn't Trend have to do this?).
The construct above is defensible but misses the key point in my opinion.
Sultan brings up a good point on APR. clearly that needs to be factored when taking anyone (one and done or other).
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Lovell was 100% behind MU bringing Henry in, knowing full well he was gone after a year. I'm still trying to see how this is more justifiable beyond One and Done = Good, JUCO = Bad.
Because MU had to jump through a lot of hoops for Jae to come to MU, he wasn't a "standard" JUCO. Having said that he was a victim of circumstances to a large extent so it's justifiable.
The problem is that Jae didn't happen in a vacuum and was part of a culmination of issues that the previous administration took issue with
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How about Facebook posts directly from the victim? Enough proof for me. Jeeze how any alum can still claim that it may or may not have happened is beyond me. Is your whole outlook on life essentially cover your eyes and ears so that you can claim "well maybe it didn't happen, I don't know"
I don't know if happened. But the issue in this case is whether or not she got treated fairly by the University. And knowing what I know, she did not. And Buzz played a role in that.
EDIT: And this is part of the reason he is gone. It wasn't just about the Jae Crowders and taking a chance on kids from questionable backgrounds, it is how Buzz acted.
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How about Facebook posts directly from the victim? Enough proof for me. Jeeze how any alum can still claim that it may or may not have happened is beyond me. Is your whole outlook on life essentially cover your eyes and ears so that you can claim "well maybe it didn't happen, I don't know"
I don't know what was posted or any of those details but if you believe that, "well it's on Facebook so it has to be true!" then you believe there were no planes on 9/11 and there were bombs set up in the World Trade Centers to knock them down, all these mass shootings aren't actually happening they're just actors and actresses, including little kids, etc.
That's a scary thought.
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Are there APR issues to consider? I mean if you bring someone in knowing full well they can't graduate within their eligibility "window," is that a problem?
Not if they leave early for the pros. This rule benefits the blue bloods and one of the reasons why the NCAA is seen as hypocritical.
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I don't know if happened. But the issue in this case is whether or not she got treated fairly by the University. And knowing what I know, she did not. And Buzz played a role in that.
Actually, the issue was much larger than that. Certain powers that be tried to make this just an Athletiics only issue, when in fact the law was not followed in this and literally hundreds of cases over most of a decade.
This case was actually adjudicated properly within the then (and illegal) university policy and processes. This did not become a criminal investigation until months later.
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Wojo on 105.7 @ 8am
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Actually, the issue was much larger than that. Certain powers that be tried to make this just an Athletiics only issue, when in fact the law was not followed in this and literally hundreds of cases over most of a decade.
This case was actually adjudicated properly within the then (and illegal) university policy and processes. This did not become a criminal investigation until months later.
Yes and no. My understanding is that Buzz did some things that were outside the bounds of what should have been considered proper even under Marquette's standards at the time.
But you are correct that Marquette screwed up the Title IX issue overall and IMO is largely the reason why Cottingham was booted. (Since he was the legal counsel when the procedures were drafted.)
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Yes and no. My understanding is that Buzz did some things that were outside the bounds of what should have been considered proper even under Marquette's standards at the time.
But you are correct that Marquette screwed up the Title IX issue overall and IMO is largely the reason why Cottingham was booted. (Since he was the legal counsel when the procedures were drafted.)
+1
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Wojo on 105.7 right now.
Some things: "we should be able to make up for Henry's points, but the rebounding is what we need to focus on."
Last year: we played freshman 65% of the minutes in the BE which is a lot.
The new jerseys: it is the newest technology and fit from the Jordan brand, and they pay homage to the old classic jerseys, the kids have seen them and they love them.
Guards: expecting a lot from guards this year. He expects TC and Hanni to take a step up.
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Wojo on 105.7 right now.
Some things: "we should be able to make up for Henry's points, but the rebounding is what we need to focus on."
Last year: we played freshman 65% of the minutes in the BE which is a lot.
The new jerseys: it is the newest technology and fit from the Jordan brand, and they pay homage to the old classic jerseys, the kids have seen them and they love them.
Guards: expecting a lot from guards this year. He expects TC and Hanni to take a step up.
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I don't know what was posted or any of those details but if you believe that, "well it's on Facebook so it has to be true!" then you believe there were no planes on 9/11 and there were bombs set up in the World Trade Centers to knock them down, all these mass shootings aren't actually happening they're just actors and actresses, including little kids, etc.
That's a scary thought.
I know one of them dumba$$ read the second post on it. That's all I'm saying and I think it's disgusting that you're comparing her to the 9/11 conspiracy freaks.
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Wojo on 105.7 right now.
Some things: "we should be able to make up for Henry's points, but the rebounding is what we need to focus on."
Last year: we played freshman 65% of the minutes in the BE which is a lot.
The new jerseys: it is the newest technology and fit from the Jordan brand, and they pay homage to the old classic jerseys, the kids have seen them and they love them.
Guards: expecting a lot from guards this year. He expects TC and Hanni to take a step up.
Thanks 4 the info, can't get that station here at work
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Yes and no. My understanding is that Buzz did some things that were outside the bounds of what should have been considered proper even under Marquette's standards at the time.
But you are correct that Marquette screwed up the Title IX issue overall and IMO is largely the reason why Cottingham was booted. (Since he was the legal counsel when the procedures were drafted.)
Buzz? Or some one on his coaching staff?
Cottingham was largely fired because proper training and enforcement of policies were not communicated, instituted or followed within the department. When alerted of the incident, an action plan and policy should have followed with the coaching staff and team. Instead, he called in a legal friend of the department.
As to the university policy, Cottingham wasn't in that counsel role for a number of years. The university counsel should be on top of that particular issue as a normal review, making the university very culpable. "Ignorance of the law..."
Thus, Cottingham was the convenient fall guy. Pilarz would have loved to have found a lock tight legal cause to fire Buzz and get out of that contract.
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I know one of them dumba$$ read the second post on it. That's all I'm saying and I think it's disgusting that you're comparing her to the 9/11 conspiracy freaks.
I didn't compare her to anybody. But okay?
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Buzz? Or some one on his coaching staff?
Cottingham was largely fired because proper training and enforcement of policies were not communicated, instituted or followed within the department. When alerted of the incident, an action plan and policy should have followed with the coaching staff and team. Instead, he called in a legal friend of the department.
As to the university policy, Cottingham wasn't in that counsel role for a number of years. The university counsel should be on top of that particular issue as a normal review, making the university very culpable. "Ignorance of the law..."
Thus, Cottingham was the convenient fall guy. Pilarz would have loved to have found a lock tight legal cause to fire Buzz and get out of that contract.
Buzz operated outside of even Marquette's rules, as bad as they were, at the time of the incident. I don't believe it was malicious but it was very improper nonetheless, however MU couldn't do anything about it because that would have been as good as admitting culpability in the Title IX cases and would have opened the university to even more financial risk.
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I cannot help but think that green-lighting Pilarz, not having a better successor to Wild is what got us into this mess. So much stems from that leadership vacuum.
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Buzz? Or some one on his coaching staff?
Cottingham was largely fired because proper training and enforcement of policies were not communicated, instituted or followed within the department. When alerted of the incident, an action plan and policy should have followed with the coaching staff and team. Instead, he called in a legal friend of the department.
Good points thanks. Regarding your first question, I heard it was Buzz but perhaps it was a member of his staff.
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I know one of them dumba$$ read the second post on it. That's all I'm saying and I think it's disgusting that you're comparing her to the 9/11 conspiracy freaks.
Pipes -
I understand that for you it's personal. You know her and believe her. That's certainly your prerogative. But a Facebook post doesn't PROVE anything and acting as if it's some sort of smoking gun is dangerous thinking.
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Good points thanks. Regarding your first question, I heard it was Buzz but perhaps it was a member of his staff.
Buzz and a member of the staff got involved in different ways based on everything I was told.
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I cannot help but think that green-lighting Pilarz, not having a better successor to Wild is what got us into this mess. So much stems from that leadership vacuum.
This is absolutely correct. While Buzz, LW, etc have culpability in the situations none of it had to escalate to the level it did. Pilarz, whether intentionally or not, essentially acted as a fire enhancer as opposed to fire suppressor as he should have. Really have to wonder what the BoT was thinking with the Pilarz hire.
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Boy, with light-hearted discussion like this the actual basketball games this campaign are going to be quite boring.
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This is absolutely correct. While Buzz, LW, etc have culpability in the situations none of it had to escalate to the level it did. Pilarz, whether intentionally or not, essentially acted as a fire enhancer as opposed to fire suppressor as he should have. Really have to wonder what the BoT was thinking with the Pilarz hire.
That's what happens when you still had a 'must be a Jebbie' clause. Pilarz was a disaster. Heard numerous stories after he was gone.
As to Cottinghan, everything mentioned here was a factor. There were also other screw ups not mentioned. I liked Steve a great deal. But his departure was more than simply him being a 'fall guy'.