Wojo's Seat April 4, 2017

[jesmu84]

I think if Wojo would have gotten Kostas here, or signed all McD's 5 stars, we'd be fine.

Otherwise, total dumpster fire. I dunno why we are even allowing Wojo to still be here. Fire him before Madness to give us a chance.

[muwarrior69]

Absolutely ridiculous statement.  Yes there's a performance metric.  No, we're not going to 'do anything and everything' to achieve it immediately.  To that end, no one will be recruited or admitted who has zero ability to graduate on time (no criticism of Jae intended) and criminals and thugs and need not apply.  Out of respect for the departed I'm not going to mention names.  Serves zero purpose at this time. 

Wojo is expected to build a winning program with kids that properly reflect on Marquette and its values.  That takes some time given where we started.  When and if he succeeds, great.  If he fails he'll be gone.  There's no evidence that he's failing.  On the contrary, I'd argue that his bosses see progress and expect more in the short term with a goal of being a 'power' when the new building opens in 2 seasons.

Wow Glow, your inner Chicos is shining through and he got banned.

[jsglow]

Wow Glow, your inner Chicos is shining through and he got banned.

? Is there any secret or anything inappropriate about what I said?  That, among other things (like he was a total d*ck to coworkers) is a principal reason Buzz isn't here anymore.  I don't think anyone is the least surprised by that.  Have a nice day.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

If it's coaching, how are you going to get a coach who can coach this team up from day 1? John Wooden isn't walking through that door so just about any coach is going to be an up and comer so the growing pains are going to be there whether it's Wojo or some other coach.....but at least at this point some if not most (hopefully) of the growing pains are behind Wojo.

I personally don't know if he can be a good coach -- need more time to evaluate since we went down this path.  His recruiting seems good on paper so far.  It should be said though that Wojo is not earning 'up and comer money'.

About three years ago, I did (incorrectly) think that Marquette was beyond being the training ground for new coaches - our salary level is quite high and we had a track record of success that I thought we could leverage (after Crean re-built the program and Buzz continued it).   

So for those saying "what did you expect, we need patience, this is a long term proposition" - you are right.  We are in a complete rebuild situation not seen since the late 90's/ early 00's.  I just never accepted that until ~9-12 months ago.

[mu03eng]

Wow Glow, your inner Chicos is shining through and he got banned.

Whatever you read into Glow's statement is on you, not him. There were incidents under Buzz with players that were totally unacceptable for students at MU let alone ambassadors for the university like basketball players. Buzz was comfortable that those types of incidents might happen and then could be handled afterward, the university was not so they made a change. MU made a value judgement that character mattered in it's student athletes and Buzz spent a lot of time flirting with the line of appropriate character.

Buzz was about giving kids a chance to be successful, which is admirable and certainly something to be valued, but his risk tolerance for character issues was much higher than MU's so it was not a good match in the end. And it wasn't just the students that Buzz brought into the university, it was the students he wanted to bring in and the university had to say no.

[HoopsterBC]

I personally don't know if he can be a good coach -- need more time to evaluate since we went down this path.  His recruiting seems good on paper so far.  It should be said though that Wojo is not earning 'up and comer money'.

About three years ago, I did (incorrectly) think that Marquette was beyond being the training ground for new coaches - our salary level is quite high and we had a track record of success that I thought we could leverage (after Crean re-built the program and Buzz continued it).   

So for those saying "what did you expect, we need patience, this is a long term proposition" - you are right.  We are in a complete rebuild situation not seen since the late 90's/ early 00's.  I just never accepted that until ~9-12 months ago.

Buzz left the program really for him the right time, for MU at the bottom.  Wojo came in, in April, first year, not his fault, no talent, brought in Carlino, good job there.
Did a good job in recruiting but Henry screwed him by not staying at least 2 years.  So really starting over again, third year is like the first again.  It seems he has talent right now, but no physical talent.  Next year, young again.  Got 3 out of the 4 kids he worked hard at,  John, Cain and Hauser will be really good in 2 or 3 years
like a 6 or 7 year turnaround for MU. 

[Pakuni]

Buzz left the program really for him the right time, for MU at the bottom.  Wojo came in, in April, first year, not his fault, no talent, brought in Carlino, good job there.
Did a good job in recruiting but Henry screwed him by not staying at least 2 years.  So really starting over again, third year is like the first again.  It seems he has talent right now, but no physical talent.  Next year, young again.  Got 3 out of the 4 kids he worked hard at,  John, Cain and Hauser will be really good in 2 or 3 years
like a 6 or 7 year turnaround for MU.

Henry screwed nobody. Everybody knew from the moment he signed his LOI that if the opportunity was there, he would be a one-and-done.

[jsglow]

Whatever you read into Glow's statement is on you, not him. There were incidents under Buzz with players that were totally unacceptable for students at MU let alone ambassadors for the university like basketball players. Buzz was comfortable that those types of incidents might happen and then could be handled afterward, the university was not so they made a change. MU made a value judgement that character mattered in it's student athletes and Buzz spent a lot of time flirting with the line of appropriate character.

Buzz was about giving kids a chance to be successful, which is admirable and certainly something to be valued, but his risk tolerance for character issues was much higher than MU's so it was not a good match in the end. And it wasn't just the students that Buzz brought into the university, it was the students he wanted to bring in and the university had to say no.

Spot on.

[bilsu]

For those who think Wojo's seat should be hot this season if he doesn't make the tournament....what is your theory of the crime? He can't recruit talent, he can't coach, or both?

If it's that he can't recruit talent, resetting after this season means at least 3 or 4 years before the talent pool regenerates are you willing to wait that long? But if he can't recruit talent then he's got one thing, he can coach them up.

If it's coaching, how are you going to get a coach who can coach this team up from day 1? John Wooden isn't walking through that door so just about any coach is going to be an up and comer so the growing pains are going to be there whether it's Wojo or some other coach.....but at least at this point some if not most (hopefully) of the growing pains are behind Wojo.

If it's both....I don't know what to tell you, you might be bad at evaluating coaching.

It is hard to win with young talent and coaching young talent is mostly limited to teaching them the basics of college basketball. We will know more about how good Wojo is when Heldt, Sacar, Haanif and Carter have completed their senior seasons. That is the proper time to judge Wojo. Right now, if I were to question him on anything, it would be team building. Getting Henry was a major coo, but Henry left a huge gap at the power forward spot when he went pro. However, that should not of been a surprise and not having some kind of replacement for him will be the biggest reason for this team not making the tournament if they fail to do so this year. Wojo has worked hard to bring in talented players, but the team is unbalanced and that is why I question his team building. The 2017 class may alleviate some of this unbalance, but if you assume John is replacing Fischer we probably are still short at power forward as Eke may take a year or two to be an effective player at power forward. Wojo is trying to address the power forward situation, but he lost Young to Providence and Tillman to MSU. He could really use a win with French.

[Pakuni]

Whatever you read into Glow's statement is on you, not him. There were incidents under Buzz with players that were totally unacceptable for students at MU let alone ambassadors for the university like basketball players. Buzz was comfortable that those types of incidents might happen and then could be handled afterward, the university was not so they made a change. MU made a value judgement that character mattered in it's student athletes and Buzz spent a lot of time flirting with the line of appropriate character.

Buzz was about giving kids a chance to be successful, which is admirable and certainly something to be valued, but his risk tolerance for character issues was much higher than MU's so it was not a good match in the end. And it wasn't just the students that Buzz brought into the university, it was the students he wanted to bring in and the university had to say no.

Largely agree, but I think the "character" issues have been a bit overblown when it comes to Buzz's players, mostly only after Buzz's departure.
I think Buzz's issues with the administration had way more to do with the conduct of Buzz and his staff than it did with the conduct of his players, the large majority of whom did - and continue to - represent Marquette well.

[jsglow]

Largely agree, but I think the "character" issues have been a bit overblown when it comes to Buzz's players, mostly only after Buzz's departure.
I think Buzz's issues with the administration had way more to do with the conduct of Buzz and his staff than it did with the conduct of his players, the large majority of whom did - and continue to - represent Marquette well.

I don't think the two can be so easily separated. Both were factors.  I do know that MU wasn't on the cusp of paying the $10M buyout but the word 'handsprings in Zilber' was said directly to me when he left on his own.

[mu03eng]

Largely agree, but I think the "character" issues have been a bit overblown when it comes to Buzz's players, mostly only after Buzz's departure.
I think Buzz's issues with the administration had way more to do with the conduct of Buzz and his staff than it did with the conduct of his players, the large majority of whom did - and continue to - represent Marquette well.

Let me re-label the issues not necessarily as character in nature (implying they are terrible, irredeemable  people) but of poor decision making. You are correct some of the issues were talked about after the fact but that's when they became known. I think Buzz created a culture with his staff which trickled down to the players that allowed bad decision making to occur and that is what MU eventually had enough of. I also know for an absolutely fact that there were at least 3 recruits that Buzz wanted to go after hard and MU administration flat out said no way given issues (character, academics, etc).

[mu03eng]

It is hard to win with young talent and coaching young talent is mostly limited to teaching them the basics of college basketball. We will know more about how good Wojo is when Heldt, Sacar, Haanif and Carter have completed their senior seasons. That is the proper time to judge Wojo. Right now, if I were to question him on anything, it would be team building. Getting Henry was a major coo, but Henry left a huge gap at the power forward spot when he went pro. However, that should not of been a surprise and not having some kind of replacement for him will be the biggest reason for this team not making the tournament if they fail to do so this year. Wojo has worked hard to bring in talented players, but the team is unbalanced and that is why I question his team building. The 2017 class may alleviate some of this unbalance, but if you assume John is replacing Fischer we probably are still short at power forward as Eke may take a year or two to be an effective player at power forward. Wojo is trying to address the power forward situation, but he lost Young to Providence and Tillman to MSU. He could really use a win with French.

The Henry thing really begs the question....do you build to your plan and ignore at top 20 talent that doesn't really fit into the plan and hope for the best or do you stick to the plan? There is no question that Henry was a square peg in an octagon hole for Wojo's plan but he took a chance he could retool on the fly and it didn't quite work out. I don't fault him for that which is why I have a lot more patience with him for the next couple of years than some.

[Pakuni]

Let me re-label the issues not necessarily as character in nature (implying they are terrible, irredeemable  people) but of poor decision making. You are correct some of the issues were talked about after the fact but that's when they became known. I think Buzz created a culture with his staff which trickled down to the players that allowed bad decision making to occur and that is what MU eventually had enough of. I also know for an absolutely fact that there were at least 3 recruits that Buzz wanted to go after hard and MU administration flat out said no way given issues (character, academics, etc).

OK, but to me at least, pinning the bad decisions of an 18-21 year-old college student on a coach is often unfair and a pretty slippery slope, especially if those "bad decisions" are relatively minor and rare (with one very notable exception, as far as the level of seriousness goes).
The fact is, 18-21 year-old men make stupid decisions all the time, whether they're college athletes or not. The amount of off-court trouble MU players were in during the Buzz era was far from exceptional when viewed across the college sports landscape, or even among college students in general. Hell, Tom Izzo is viewed as a saint in most places, and he's had far more players in serious  trouble off court than Buzz ever did.

[HoopsterBC]

The Henry thing really begs the question....do you build to your plan and ignore at top 20 talent that doesn't really fit into the plan and hope for the best or do you stick to the plan? There is no question that Henry was a square peg in an octagon hole for Wojo's plan but he took a chance he could retool on the fly and it didn't quite work out. I don't fault him for that which is why I have a lot more patience with him for the next couple of years than some.

You take the talent and hope you can replace him the following year.  If Henry did not come to MU, how bad would they have been the second year under Wojo? 
Unfortunately it might not work out. 

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I don't think the two can be so easily separated. Both were factors.  I do know that MU wasn't on the cusp of paying the $10M buyout but the word 'handsprings in Zilber' was said directly to me when he left on his own.

This sentiment from 'Zilber' is equally responsible for the length of the rebuild.  The Pilarz, etc period was really damaging to the bball program. 

If you have a problem with an employee you deal with it and the consequences (i.e. buyout, upset alums because you fired a coach coming off a S16 or S8).  The passive aggressive stuff is just so damaging and makes you wonder if they came to the right conclusion to begin with. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

With fear of turning this thread into a large dumpster fire, what are the criticisms for Lovell that have some alumni and outside influencers already calling for his head?

I'm around students and campus all the time and from current students and recent graduates it is near universal praise for Lovell, but from some of the monied types (I'm clearly not one of them, just happen to know a couple) there is at minimum a disappointment in Lovell and at worst an active disapproval of his performance.

I do think MU is at a crossroads that the last 5 years have put us in, but given all the things both known publicly and unknown publicly that have gone on at the university in that time period, I think we're in a very good position to take the trending up path as opposed to the disaster path some imply. I think the basketball program is part of the upswing.....3 or 4 years ago there were a lot of opportunities for things to go very bad and change was made but as a result we set ourselves back a couple of years. I think we've gotten through the worst of the set back and are poised to reemerge on the national stage.

Thoughts?

My impression (no actual facts) is that the monied types don't get as much of a say as they used to with Father Wild. I think the fact that Lovell came from UWM is also an issue, I think Marquette alum often look down their noses at anything from UWM. I also wonder if the hiring of Wojo rubbed people the wrong way. It would not surprise me if the monied types wanted a "proven" head coach like Howland at the helm. Fortunately, Lovell is smarter than that and realizes how badly Howland fails the sniff test.

[1SE]

For those who think Wojo's seat should be hot this season if he doesn't make the tournament....what is your theory of the crime? He can't recruit talent, he can't coach, or both?

If it's that he can't recruit talent, resetting after this season means at least 3 or 4 years before the talent pool regenerates are you willing to wait that long? But if he can't recruit talent then he's got one thing, he can coach them up.

If it's coaching, how are you going to get a coach who can coach this team up from day 1? John Wooden isn't walking through that door so just about any coach is going to be an up and comer so the growing pains are going to be there whether it's Wojo or some other coach.....but at least at this point some if not most (hopefully) of the growing pains are behind Wojo.

If it's both....I don't know what to tell you, you might be bad at evaluating coaching.

Coaching. Recruiting is good, with the exception that there's not a 4 on the roster this year - that's really quite inexcusable. But you have to translate those 4 and 5 start recruits into wins. I haven't seen it yet (20-13 last year doesn't count when 12 of the wins were against glorified WIAA D-I teams) and if we haven't seen it by April 4, 2017 (which would be Day 1098 btw) I think it's fair to say that the first hint of warmth should appear.

That being said - I'm much happier with a 7 seed and a second weekend, so let's hope that happens.

Those of you talking about the "we can't ditch Wojo because then we'll have to start over" seem to be flirting dangerously with the fallacy of sunk costs.

[1SE]

Coaching. Recruiting is good, with the exception that there's not a 4 on the roster this year - that's really quite inexcusable. But you have to translate those 4 and 5 start recruits into wins. I haven't seen it yet (20-13 last year doesn't count when 12 of the wins were against glorified WIAA D-I teams) and if we haven't seen it by April 4, 2017 (which would be Day 1098 btw) I think it's fair to say that the first hint of warmth should appear.

That being said - I'm much happier with a 7 seed and a second weekend, so let's hope that happens.

Those of you talking about the "we can't ditch Wojo because then we'll have to start over" seem to be flirting dangerously with the fallacy of sunk costs.

Last year MU was 12-20 against the spread - I think that's a nice rough metric for coaching quality. We get four more of those wins, we're dancing and everyone is happy.

http://www.vegasinsider.com/college-basketball/against-the-spread/

[1SE]

Last year MU was 12-20 against the spread - I think that's a nice rough metric for coaching quality. We get four more of those wins, we're dancing and everyone is happy.

http://www.vegasinsider.com/college-basketball/against-the-spread/

And 5-15 ATS at home. Sheesh.

[wadesworld]

I haven't kept up with the thread and I've never met Lovell myself, but I know one person who has worked in administration at MU for quite some time and another who has worked in the athletic department for quite some time and both have more or less said he is "the man."

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Those of you talking about the "we can't ditch Wojo because then we'll have to start over" seem to be flirting dangerously with the fallacy of sunk costs.

Sunk cost fallacy is continuing something because you have already invested resources into it.

Not firing Wojo because it would delay the rebuild by another 4-5 years is not a sunk cost.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Last year MU was 12-20 against the spread - I think that's a nice rough metric for coaching quality. We get four more of those wins, we're dancing and everyone is happy.

http://www.vegasinsider.com/college-basketball/against-the-spread/

So if we won by more or lost by less in 4 games we would have been dancing?

[muguru]

Not getting Shaka is what set this program back to where it is. Obviously it's speculative but i'm willing to bet a large sum of cash that had Mrs Shaka not killed the deal at the last minute..this program would be in a much different place right now. They'd have made the dance last year with Shaka and probably wouldnt have had the transfers they had if he was here.

[Galway Eagle]

Not getting Shaka is what set this program back to where it is. Obviously it's speculative but i'm willing to bet a large sum of cash that had Mrs Shaka not killed the deal at the last minute..this program would be in a much different place right now. They'd have made the dance last year with Shaka and probably wouldnt have had the transfers they had if he was here.

I'm sure Shayok and Hill would've given us a second look and one of Burton or Dawson may still be here but it's impossible to say. Not a chance that anybody is winning with the team that was here when Buzz left though.