NFC North Pissing Match

[Moonboots]

Not even sure I can call him a bust for number 5. He was the Defensive ROY his first year, second in tackles in his second year on a very solid defense, and spent much of last year out of position on an injury ravaged defense. we'll see what he does this year, but he has been much more good than bad.

That's the nature of the NFL draft, though.  I like Hawk as a player and don't really want him going anywhere. Draft value is fickle.  At pick #18 or 20, maybe Hawk is considered a success. But at 5?  You want a Merriman or Ware level contribution, and Hawk, unfortunately, is not that.

[NavinRJohnson]

Well if we are redrafting with the luxury of hindsight, the pick is DeAngelo Williams or Joseph Adai anyway. First round is a definite crap shoot, whether you are picking 5th or 25th. I believe the Packers will have 5 starters out of that particular year including Jennings and Jolly. Six if you include Will Blackmon who has been an excellent KR/PR. 

[GGGG]

That's the nature of the NFL draft, though.  I like Hawk as a player and don't really want him going anywhere. Draft value is fickle.  At pick #18 or 20, maybe Hawk is considered a success. But at 5?  You want a Merriman or Ware level contribution, and Hawk, unfortunately, is not that.

I want to see how he plays this year as an ILB in the 3-4.  He was an MLB in college and playing out of position here so far.

[Hards Alumni]

First off, Joseph Addai sucks.

Secondly, AJ Hawk IS a bust.

I am totally agreeing with PXI here.

[LON]

First off, Joseph Addai sucks.

Secondly, AJ Hawk IS a bust.

I am totally agreeing with PXI here.

I'll agree with you on Addai, but Hawk gets this year to prove your second statement wrong.

[Hards Alumni]

I'll agree with you on Addai, but Hawk gets this year to prove your second statement wrong.

he isn't the star of the defense. 

just because he starts doesn't mean he isn't a bust.

he is serviceable, but definitely not what you'd hope for out of the 5th overall pick.

[NavinRJohnson]

he isn't the star of the defense. 

just because he starts doesn't mean he isn't a bust.

he is serviceable, but definitely not what you'd hope for out of the 5th overall pick.

Key words...hope for. I have no interest in looking it up, but I'd be willing to bet there are more Top 10 picks that fit the description of AJ Hawk, then there are guys that are considered 'stars'. Ryan Leaf, Joey Harrington, David Carr, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Pacman Jones, Tony Mandarich, Jamal Reynolds, Peter Warrik, Curtis Enis, Lawrence Phillips...on and on. Those are busts! AJ Hawk may not be what you hope for with a 5th pick, but from a percentage standpoint, he is probably about what you should expect. Guys like Brain Urlacher and Ladanian Tomlinson are more likely the exception, not the rule.

[Hards Alumni]

you don't draft someone in the top 5 and expect him to be anything but a star.

he is a bust.

[MU B2002]

General NFL question...

TOP 5 WR in the league based on skill level right now.  This was a debate at my office today.


I'll start: L Fitz, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Steve Smith, Randy Moss.


What started this was the question: Brandon Marshall, a top 5 talent?

[LON]

General NFL question...

TOP 5 WR in the league based on skill level right now.  This was a debate at my office today.


I'll start: L Fitz, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Steve Smith, Randy Moss.


What started this was the question: Brandon Marshall, a top 5 talent?

Until he stops being top 5 headcase he doesn't belong on it.

[NavinRJohnson]

you don't draft someone in the top 5 and expect him to be anything but a star.

he is a bust.

Here are the last 20 number 5 picks in the draft (plus Sanchez)

Deion Sanders
Junior Seau
Todd Lyght
Terrell Buckley
John Copeland
Trev Alberts
Kerry Collins
Cedric Jones
Bryant Westbrook
Curtis Enis
Rickey Williams
Jamal Lewis
Ladanian Tomlinson
Quentin Jammer
Terence Newman
Sean Taylor
Cadillac Williams
AJ Hawk
Levi Brown
Glenn Dorsey
Mark Sanchez

Count the stars on that list and tell me if you should expect a star, or hope for a star. Not even close.
(Hint: You need to come up with 11 at the bare minimum to say you should expect a star. Good Luck.)

[NavinRJohnson]

I could probably make a case that AJ Hawk would be placed in the upper half of that list (little too early in his career to say either way). If that makes him a bust, we need a new term for guys like Ryan Leaf and Akili Smith.

[jmayer1]

I could probably make a case that AJ Hawk would be placed in the upper half of that list (little too early in his career to say either way). If that makes him a bust, we need a new term for guys like Ryan Leaf and Akili Smith.

Agreed.  When drafting at #5 you expect a very solid starter (which Hawk is) and hope for a star.  With a draft every year, its a pretty simple numbers game that not every top 5 pick can be a star.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Here are the last 20 number 5 picks in the draft (plus Sanchez)

Deion Sanders - Hall of Famer
Junior Seau - Hall of Famer
Todd Lyght - Pro Bowler 1 year
Terrell Buckley - 50 career ints
John Copeland
Trev Alberts
Kerry Collins - Pro Bowler 2 years
Cedric Jones
Bryant Westbrook
Curtis Enis
Ricky Williams - Pro Bowler 1 year
Jamal Lewis - Pro Bowler & NFL Offensive Player of the Year
Ladanian Tomlinson - Hall of Famer
Quentin Jammer
Terence Newman - Pro Bowler 1 year
Sean Taylor - Pro Bowler 2 years (killed)
Cadillac Williams - NFL Rookie of the Year
AJ Hawk
Levi Brown
Glenn Dorsey
Mark Sanchez

Count the stars on that list and tell me if you should expect a star, or hope for a star. Not even close.
(Hint: You need to come up with 11 at the bare minimum to say you should expect a star. Good Luck.)

[Moonboots]

he isn't the star of the defense. 

just because he starts doesn't mean he isn't a bust.

he is serviceable, but definitely not what you'd hope for out of the 5th overall pick.

A lot of good discussion here.  This is the post I agree with the most.  Just because Hawk isn't a pro bowler, doesn't mean I want to get rid of him.  But the expectations at pick 5 were higher than the results, and that's a fact.  Hawk makes a lot of tackles, is above average in coverage (coverage stats show he was exceptional in '07, and below average in '08, so make of that what you will) but he doesn't force many fumbles, intercept many balls, get many sacks, or make many tackles for loss.  Partially the scheme's fault? Sure.  But schemes won't hold back great players.  Hawk is good. Not great.

[NavinRJohnson]

LOL...Terrell Buckly!

The discussion is not how many have won awards. Even conceeding all of the guys you highlight, that comes to 11.  

Is your conclusion that those 11 guys were stars? Do you really consider Terrell Buckly a star? Do you believe Cadillac Williams is a star? Terence Newman? Todd Lyght?

If not, what's your point?

Even if I conceed all 11 (a few of whom Hawk may still end up better than) are stars (which I do not), does that mean you should expect a start with the 5th pick in the draft?

[NavinRJohnson]

But the expectations at pick 5 were higher than the results, and that's a fact. 

In your imaginary football world perhaps, but not here in the land of football reality. The expectations established by you and other fans may be higher, but history would seem to indicate that those expectations are completely unfounded. In the list of 20 players drafted at number 5 above, exactly five of them have been to more than 1 Pro Bowl, and more than half of them have never been there. So why is it exactly that the expectations should be higher? You seem to think every player drafted at 5 should be Junior Seau or Deion Sanders, when in fact the overwhelming majority turn out to be more on the level of AJ Hawk, Kerry Collins or Terence Newman.

It frankly doesn't matter what your expectations are, because history says that about 60% of those players aren't likely to live up to them.

[jmayer1]

Hahahaha Chicos, what an awful argument you made.  There are definitive 3 stars on that list-Deion, Seau, and LT (maybe Lewis if he can churn out a few more 1,000 yd seasons and who knows what could have been with Taylor).  By the time Hawk gets finished he'll have as many accolades as anybody else on that list (it doesn't take much to get named to a pro bowl).  If you consider any of those other guys stars then I really have to question your definition of star.

[NavinRJohnson]

I'm sure nobody is watching (Lord knows why I am), but Aaron Rodgers is sportin a killer 'stache again.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/zgTEFsNftmQ&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/zgTEFsNftmQ&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/IGgNhHKx21M&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/IGgNhHKx21M&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;</a>

Its practically like a wedding ring.

[ChicosBailBonds]

LOL...Terrell Buckly!

The discussion is not how many have won awards. Even conceeding all of the guys you highlight, that comes to 11.  

Is your conclusion that those 11 guys were stars? Do you really consider Terrell Buckly a star? Do you believe Cadillac Williams is a star? Terence Newman? Todd Lyght?

If not, what's your point?

Even if I conceed all 11 (a few of whom Hawk may still end up better than) are stars (which I do not), does that mean you should expect a start with the 5th pick in the draft?

Was this to me?  Actually, I was just highlighting what they did.  I most definitely do not think Buckley was a star.  I think your original assertion is correct, it's a tough pick.  You can get a solid guy, a pro bowler, even a Hall of Famer, but there are plenty of duds in the last number of years as well. 

Honestly I was just going to through exercise to see what had become of these players, that's all.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Hahahaha Chicos, what an awful argument you made.  There are definitive 3 stars on that list-Deion, Seau, and LT (maybe Lewis if he can churn out a few more 1,000 yd seasons and who knows what could have been with Taylor).  By the time Hawk gets finished he'll have as many accolades as anybody else on that list (it doesn't take much to get named to a pro bowl).  If you consider any of those other guys stars then I really have to question your definition of star.

I didn't make any argument Jmayer, I only listed what they had done.  Please show me what argument I made.

Sheesh.

I would, in fact, agree with the original premise that not many stars are there, but I certainly didn't make any argument at all.  I thought I was helping to actually show what those guys did or didn't do.

[Jay Bee]

I'm sure nobody is watching (Lord knows why I am), but Aaron Rodgers is sportin a killer 'stache again.

Its practically like a wedding ring.

  Sounds like my buddy Ron. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCpZV2jCMjc

[DJO's Pump Fake]

ESPN analysts on the NFC North:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/57109897.html

quote of the article comes from keyshawn johnson : And Deroit is Detroit.....

[jmayer1]

I didn't make any argument Jmayer, I only listed what they had done.  Please show me what argument I made.

Sheesh.

I would, in fact, agree with the original premise that not many stars are there, but I certainly didn't make any argument at all.  I thought I was helping to actually show what those guys did or didn't do.

My apologies, I thought you were trying to get the 11 star plateau.

[Hards Alumni]

so now you set the criteria at 11 players.  interesting.

like it or not, AJ Hawk was supposed to be the best LB from that draft, and he wasn't.