Milwaukee In Decline?

[4everwarriors]

It's still a bf'in' no matter how ya slice it.

[tower912]

Good.   

Thanks.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

You guys make me cry! My taxes in New Jersey are 14000; if you live in Princeton Borough or West Windsor just two communities adjacent to mine you could pay upward of 20000. I believe the median property tax in New Jersey is around 7500. In Trenton, where the school system is subsidized by the state were paying around 11000 per student where only 30-40% graduate. The average car insurance for 2 cars will run you about 1500. Chris Cristie along with the Democrats in the assembly capped the property tax increases to 2% two years ago, but exempted pension and medical insurance, two of the 3 prime drivers that increase your taxes, from the cap. Go figure. I could go on about the cost of living in my state but I'm getting a headache. 

My cousin lives in New Jersey somewhere near Rutgers and I recall him telling me his property taxes were like $4K more than mine on a house the same size as mine except with a postage stamp size lot.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

As someone who spent time in Florida schools especially Tampa, I can tell you DON'T DO IT.  Worst experience of my life.  My brother was in first grade when we moved there from Ohio, they put him in a corner and let him read all he wanted because he was so far ahead.  We left two years later and he was a grade behind the other 3rd graders in Illinois.

Don't worry we're not due to the school thing.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Have a few co-workers in the northeast who want to move to Florida - they could pay for a house in less than ten years with their tax savings alone.  That's the very reason they aren't already there; they will not leave until the kids are done with school first.   

FWIW I found that:
1) No FL state income tax meant nothing because I'd have to take a pay cut (based on job site listings) about equal to amount I pay in CT income tax.  A wash although I'd have to pay more Federal Tax as I'd lose that deduction. 
2) Mortgage would be a big savings of $500-$700 per month for a newer same sized house + a pool.  Big+ FL
3) Property taxes were all over the place and ranged $500 - $2,500 less however most houses had a HOA fee of $75 to $250 per month which other than condos is pretty unheard of in New England so that turned out to be a wash. 
4) Public schools were no good so I'd have to go private which would add $5,000 to $15,000 per kid negating that mortgage savings and actually significantly increasing payout.  Big + CT
5) I wouldn't have to drop a bunch any money on home heating oil in the winter which is pricy but I assumed I'd have to spend more to run the AC which is a electricity hog more than the 3 months I run now.  Probably a savings but assumed a wash.   
6)  No blizzards that dump 3 feet snow in FL like I saw in Feb. 2012.    Lived through a Hurricane in Sept 2011 and again in Oct 2012.  Tampa/St. Pete's hasn't been hit by one since the 1920s.
7) Warmth.  Longer seasonal duration to visit the beach use the pool and exercise outside.  The negative is that winter kills bugs in CT.
8)  My wife had the big problem.  As a teacher she would have to take a 60% to 65% pay cut as there is simply no making that up.  Period.

I just came to the conclusion that everything was relative.  Take home pay vs. expenses & taxes.  6 of one, half dozen of another.

[BrewCity83]

FWIW I found that:
6)  No blizzards that dump 3 feet snow in FL like I saw in Feb. 2012.    Lived through a Hurricane in Sept 2011 and again in Oct 2012.  Tampa/St. Pete's hasn't been hit by one since the 1920s.

Hurricane Charley hit that area in 2004.  When comparing costs, don't forget to check out windstorm and flood insurance; if you're on or near the coast the lenders may require it and the costs can be shockingly high.

[keefe]

FWIW I found that:
1) No FL state income tax meant nothing because I'd have to take a pay cut (based on job site listings) about equal to amount I pay in CT income tax.  A wash although I'd have to pay more Federal Tax as I'd lose that deduction. 
2) Mortgage would be a big savings of $500-$700 per month for a newer same sized house + a pool.  Big+ FL
3) Property taxes were all over the place and ranged $500 - $2,500 less however most houses had a HOA fee of $75 to $250 per month which other than condos is pretty unheard of in New England so that turned out to be a wash. 
4) Public schools were no good so I'd have to go private which would add $5,000 to $15,000 per kid negating that mortgage savings and actually significantly increasing payout.  Big + CT
5) I wouldn't have to drop a bunch any money on home heating oil in the winter which is pricy but I assumed I'd have to spend more to run the AC which is a electricity hog more than the 3 months I run now.  Probably a savings but assumed a wash.   
6)  No blizzards that dump 3 feet snow in FL like I saw in Feb. 2012.    Lived through a Hurricane in Sept 2011 and again in Oct 2012.  Tampa/St. Pete's hasn't been hit by one since the 1920s.
7) Warmth.  Longer seasonal duration to visit the beach use the pool and exercise outside.  The negative is that winter kills bugs in CT.
8)  My wife had the big problem.  As a teacher she would have to take a 60% to 65% pay cut as there is simply no making that up.  Period.

I just came to the conclusion that everything was relative.  Take home pay vs. expenses & taxes.  6 of one, half dozen of another.

The proudest of all American traditions. Loading up the Conestoga and heading out.

"Florida shore is purty, Pa!"

[Goose]

Been busy at work and just sat down and think this is interesting thread. Well done, Keefe on bringing this one up. When all said and done I believe Milwaukee's problem starts with school system. The second biggest issue to hit Milwaukee was the loss of manufacturing and not realizing it was happening or having a plan in place. My family lost a manufacturing business to China well before China became what it is today and honestly city officials were more interested in building Miller Park to realize an industry that was important to the city was dying.

Our family business was small part of that industry but the group as a whole was a billion dollar biz that employed thousands, mainly minority workers. The city knew the big players in our biz if they needed money but when things got tough they forgot a group of employers that made lives better for a lot of families.

It is going to take a very strong group of leaders to change the trend in the city and hope they are out there. Third Ward is great spot but really not creating the jobs needed. Milwaukee has to fight for everything and lower their pants to get better paying jobs in the area.

[keefe]

Been busy at work and just sat down and think this is interesting thread. Well done, Keefe on bringing this one up. When all said and done I believe Milwaukee's problem starts with school system. The second biggest issue to hit Milwaukee was the loss of manufacturing and not realizing it was happening or having a plan in place. My family lost a manufacturing business to China well before China became what it is today and honestly city officials were more interested in building Miller Park to realize an industry that was important to the city was dying.

Our family business was small part of that industry but the group as a whole was a billion dollar biz that employed thousands, mainly minority workers. The city knew the big players in our biz if they needed money but when things got tough they forgot a group of employers that made lives better for a lot of families.

It is going to take a very strong group of leaders to change the trend in the city and hope they are out there. Third Ward is great spot but really not creating the jobs needed. Milwaukee has to fight for everything and lower their pants to get better paying jobs in the area.

A thriving Milwaukee is imperative for the long term future of Marquette. I know Milwaukee has hemorrhaged well-paying manufacturing jobs since I was at MU but has done little to replace them. I know that this is a common theme throughout the Rust Belt but I always viewed Milwaukee/WI as being progressive, forward thinking for reasons of tradition, culture, and education. Damn shame they lacked the political will or vision to address fundamental shifts in global economic realities.

I think you are correct in saying that the public education system has played a role in the sharp decline in Milwaukee's middle class. I don't want to make this about political affiliation but our public school systems have not been keeping America competitive; there is a reason Bellevue looks more like Shanghai or Mumbai than it does the old Scandinavian Seattle. What is happening here is that fourth-generation Norwegian-American kids are getting jobs as baristas while Rajiv and Ho Kee are being hired as coders and developers.

From a personal experience perspective, we have been invited to participate in an EU program that supports environmental technologies to set up shop in the north of England for the sake of creating economic, academic opportunity and environmental progress. A key criteria from our perspective is that the EU and UK will sponsor dedicated technical training for both technicians and engineers. Not only does this benefit the local intellectual skill base but encourages entrepreneurship, capital investment, and corporate site planning. The US tends not to have such innovative solutions for incubating technology and fostering economic advancement.

Milwaukee was once a leading center of excellence in economic development but seems to have lost that edge. I don't want to make this about tax policy because a more comprehensive slate of government-sponsored incentives are needed to foster economic advancement. Clearly, education is a fundamental enabler that may be missing in the Milwaukee construct. Milwaukee would do well to look at other templates if it wishes to become competitive in a challenging global market. 

[77ncaachamps]

If your child can attend charter schools (no school boundaries) and private schools (vouchers), then why is there so much stock placed in the school system and home prices?

In other words...it's more than just the schools.

[The Lens]

If your child can attend charter schools (no school boundaries) and private schools (vouchers), then why is there so much stock placed in the school system and home prices?

In other words...it's more than just the schools.

Re-sale value.  My kids will probably go to MUHS & DSHA and they go catholic grade schools but I choose to live in Whitefish Bay because I like the added value that a school system like WFB provides.  And if my wife or I ever have something happen where MUHS / DS becomes unmanageable, I have a fantastic fall back.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

A thriving Milwaukee is imperative for the long term future of Marquette. I know Milwaukee has hemorrhaged well-paying manufacturing jobs since I was at MU but has done little to replace them. I know that this is a common theme throughout the Rust Belt but I always viewed Milwaukee/WI as being progressive, forward thinking for reasons of tradition, culture, and education. Damn shame they lacked the political will or vision to address fundamental shifts in global economic realities.

I think you are correct in saying that the public education system has played a role in the sharp decline in Milwaukee's middle class. I don't want to make this about political affiliation but our public school systems have not been keeping America competitive; there is a reason Bellevue looks more like Shanghai or Mumbai than it does the old Scandinavian Seattle. What is happening here is that fourth-generation Norwegian-American kids are getting jobs as baristas while Rajiv and Ho Kee are being hired as coders and developers.

From a personal experience perspective, we have been invited to participate in an EU program that supports environmental technologies to set up shop in the north of England for the sake of creating economic, academic opportunity and environmental progress. A key criteria from our perspective is that the EU and UK will sponsor dedicated technical training for both technicians and engineers. Not only does this benefit the local intellectual skill base but encourages entrepreneurship, capital investment, and corporate site planning. The US tends not to have such innovative solutions for incubating technology and fostering economic advancement.

Milwaukee was once a leading center of excellence in economic development but seems to have lost that edge. I don't want to make this about tax policy because a more comprehensive slate of government-sponsored incentives are needed to foster economic advancement. Clearly, education is a fundamental enabler that may be missing in the Milwaukee construct. Milwaukee would do well to look at other templates if it wishes to become competitive in a challenging global market. 

This isn't unique to Milwaukee.

America, for the most part, is transitioning from world production superpower, where it produced raw materials, finished goods, and food for the entire world, to something different (consumer or service based economy, or whatever you want to call it).

America used to produce and sell products, now it imports and sells products and or sells "ideas". The corporations are still making money, but the labor force has been outsourced. It's the reality of the global economy. China is a huge producer right now. In 20 years, you might see Africa producing products (if they can get their infrastructure and labor force in place).
 
I don't necessarily think any of this is "bad", but the average American cannot count of a decent 40hr per week job just because they have a strong back and a HS degree. This isn't 1955.

I think technical training is important and should have a greater emphasis with young kids. Maybe even a hybrid work/high school program where it takes 6 or even 8 years to get through "high school", but you are working and developing a technical skill set and some small business acumen the entire time. 

That type of kid could continue education at the college level, or would already have a very marketable skill set for any industry trade of their choosing.

Also, not to get too weird, but I think we might see a shift with the millennial generation where "living efficiently" will be valued over "consumption". That's just a personal opinion and observation.

"A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone." - Walden

[augoman]

I agree with Lens 'school district effects resale'- Williamson county is highly sought after in Nashville area for that reason.

Keefe- meant to say "her fiancé", not to imply mine. They are now married.  No, my wife is suspicious but doesn't know.

There is little substitute for a Catholic education, although some of the other charter schools seem to be doing a good job.

I wonder why Milwaukee with all the problems it has keeps re-electing the same group of politicians.  Perhaps a new broom would sweep clean as they say.  Same prob with the school system-haven't had good leadership since they ran Fuller off. 

[MUfan12]

Just wait until the city passes the living wage requirement. It will be even more of a business killer.

[mu03eng]

This isn't unique to Milwaukee.

America, for the most part, is transitioning from world production superpower, where it produced raw materials, finished goods, and food for the entire world, to something different (consumer or service based economy, or whatever you want to call it).

America used to produce and sell products, now it imports and sells products and or sells "ideas". The corporations are still making money, but the labor force has been outsourced. It's the reality of the global economy. China is a huge producer right now. In 20 years, you might see Africa producing products (if they can get their infrastructure and labor force in place).
 
I don't necessarily think any of this is "bad", but the average American cannot count of a decent 40hr per week job just because they have a strong back and a HS degree. This isn't 1955.

I think technical training is important and should have a greater emphasis with young kids. Maybe even a hybrid work/high school program where it takes 6 or even 8 years to get through "high school", but you are working and developing a technical skill set and some small business acumen the entire time. 

That type of kid could continue education at the college level, or would already have a very marketable skill set for any industry trade of their choosing.

Also, not to get too weird, but I think we might see a shift with the millennial generation where "living efficiently" will be valued over "consumption". That's just a personal opinion and observation.

"A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone." - Walden

I agree with some of your solution's Ammo, but I disagree with your assessment of manufacturing jobs and I also think the "outsourcing" of jobs is overblown, significant, but overblown.  A significant portion of the job loss is two fold, shifting of jobs to other activites(i.e enabling manufacturing instead of doing the manufacturing) and increasing efficiency which requires fewer jobs.

See this 60 minutes clip
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/are-robots-hurting-job-growth-08-09-2013/

As technology improves, jobs are eliminated and they aren't coming back.  However, it also creates new jobs.  Five years ago I would have completely agreed with the Africa assessment however in the next 10 years(at least) it will take them to get their feces co-located I believe manufacturing will start moving back to the US.  There will not be humans doing the manufacturing because you can accomplish near the Chinese labor rate in the US with advances in automation in the US.  The US once again becomes the competitive leader because the logistics once again become the cost driver and local sourcing will always trump foreign sourcing for the US.

As an example the delta in Chinese sourced product and US sourced product use to be around 100x but the logistics cost was 50x for China as US(to the US market) - circa 2005.  Logistics costs are down some, 30x, but production cost delta is also down, now about 60x.  It is slowly becoming less attractive to manufacture off-shore.  Africa would have roughly the same labor rate(if stability was a non-factor) as China, but logistics costs would be about 15x of US sourced.  Very attractive...but no stability and it's going to take a long time to get it there.  So with that, if you can source a China labor rate in the US via automation and robotics, that is somewhat of a holy grail.

Here's another example, having people able to use and configure this sort of technology will be critical

http://www.jsonline.com/business/rockwell-leading-way-in-next-industrial-revolution-b99174535z1-238731421.html

So what does this have to do with jobs?  The city of Milwaukee has all the tools and resources it needs to be a great manufacturing city again, but they have to have the vision.  Manufacturing jobs are not going to come in the form of actually building product, but in enabling, coordinating, setting up, and managing the systems that will do the actual manufacturing.  This does not require a 4 year degree to do.  Heck, MATC could set-up a 1 or 2 year program that would put out workers much more trained than the ones we're limping along with now.  Look at Amazon in Kenosha, location is everything in the new local sourcing economy that's coming.  Companies could manufacture in SE Wisconsin and service a major segment of the American populace with a two day lead time.

To your point, high schools should be recognizing this as well and tailoring their curriculum to allow blue collar and white collar paths.

One of my biggest pet peeves and issues with our current society is the endless mantra of go to college.  Going to college is not for everyone nor is it required for the new economy.  Maybe its semantical but we should be focusing on post high school degrees or education.  Not making this political because both sides do it, but while I was working out yesterday I saw the President talking about college and making it affordable.  That's great, college costs are run amok, but the blurb that caught my attention(sound was off so I don't have context) was the statement that "College is still the surest way to economic mobility and success." or something to that effect.  I fundamentally disagree with this statement and would actually argue in some instances people, by going to college, have put themselves at a disadvantage.

What does this have to do with MPS?  With the money MPS spends they could radically alter the curriculum to allow a focus on technical but non-college career paths that would allow students to become success and build a worker base for future employers and build the success of the community as whole.  Again someone has to have the vision at the city, state, and federal level and quite frankly no one does and it's very disheartening.

<rant off>

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Not my area of expertise but a young man who virtually grew up at my house for years did business in China and is now COO/ CFO of a US company told me that skilled workers are more efficient here while low skilled jobs will continue to remain in China and elsewhere. He brought back complex manufacturing to the US: Portland, a curiously business friendly city( but weird) and surprisingly, to me, just built a plant in N.Y. State.
Just my 1 1/2 cents worth

[Goose]

Elephant

I have worked in China most of my adult life and agree to some degree. Workers in China are becoming far more skilled in the past decade and they will continue to improve. Much of the return to US manufacturing from China stems from high overhead costs in doing business in China IMO. Many US companies have mismanaged China operations and have decided they need to improve their efficiencies in China or return home.

I believe China has both pro's and con's to doing business there, but I do know that manufacturing opportunities are as great today as 10 years in China. Keefe has a great wealth of knowledge on China and Asia as a whole and based off conversations we have had believes China has bright future as well.

China is a great tool for US companies that run their Asian business effectively. Granted I make a living in China, but with or without my paycheck indirectly coming from China I believe the opportunity for US companies to make a score there are very high.

[Hards Alumni]

Just wait until the city passes the living wage requirement. It will be even more of a business killer.

Seems to be working just fine here in Madison.  We are required to, and were already providing close to the living wage; about 1/3 of our employees got small raises.  Too bad for our competitors who weren't paying as much.

Additionally, that extra money in the workers pocket is money that they can use to spend on bills, goods, and services.  Less people using the entitlement programs (which I know you hate).

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I agree with some of your solution's Ammo, but I disagree with your assessment of manufacturing jobs and I also think the "outsourcing" of jobs is overblown, significant, but overblown.  A significant portion of the job loss is two fold, shifting of jobs to other activites(i.e enabling manufacturing instead of doing the manufacturing) and increasing efficiency which requires fewer jobs.

See this 60 minutes clip
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/are-robots-hurting-job-growth-08-09-2013/

As technology improves, jobs are eliminated and they aren't coming back.  However, it also creates new jobs.  Five years ago I would have completely agreed with the Africa assessment however in the next 10 years(at least) it will take them to get their feces co-located I believe manufacturing will start moving back to the US.  There will not be humans doing the manufacturing because you can accomplish near the Chinese labor rate in the US with advances in automation in the US.  The US once again becomes the competitive leader because the logistics once again become the cost driver and local sourcing will always trump foreign sourcing for the US.

As an example the delta in Chinese sourced product and US sourced product use to be around 100x but the logistics cost was 50x for China as US(to the US market) - circa 2005.  Logistics costs are down some, 30x, but production cost delta is also down, now about 60x.  It is slowly becoming less attractive to manufacture off-shore.  Africa would have roughly the same labor rate(if stability was a non-factor) as China, but logistics costs would be about 15x of US sourced.  Very attractive...but no stability and it's going to take a long time to get it there.  So with that, if you can source a China labor rate in the US via automation and robotics, that is somewhat of a holy grail.

Here's another example, having people able to use and configure this sort of technology will be critical

http://www.jsonline.com/business/rockwell-leading-way-in-next-industrial-revolution-b99174535z1-238731421.html

So what does this have to do with jobs?  The city of Milwaukee has all the tools and resources it needs to be a great manufacturing city again, but they have to have the vision.  Manufacturing jobs are not going to come in the form of actually building product, but in enabling, coordinating, setting up, and managing the systems that will do the actual manufacturing.  This does not require a 4 year degree to do.  Heck, MATC could set-up a 1 or 2 year program that would put out workers much more trained than the ones we're limping along with now.  Look at Amazon in Kenosha, location is everything in the new local sourcing economy that's coming.  Companies could manufacture in SE Wisconsin and service a major segment of the American populace with a two day lead time.

To your point, high schools should be recognizing this as well and tailoring their curriculum to allow blue collar and white collar paths.

One of my biggest pet peeves and issues with our current society is the endless mantra of go to college.  Going to college is not for everyone nor is it required for the new economy.  Maybe its semantical but we should be focusing on post high school degrees or education.  Not making this political because both sides do it, but while I was working out yesterday I saw the President talking about college and making it affordable.  That's great, college costs are run amok, but the blurb that caught my attention(sound was off so I don't have context) was the statement that "College is still the surest way to economic mobility and success." or something to that effect.  I fundamentally disagree with this statement and would actually argue in some instances people, by going to college, have put themselves at a disadvantage.

What does this have to do with MPS?  With the money MPS spends they could radically alter the curriculum to allow a focus on technical but non-college career paths that would allow students to become success and build a worker base for future employers and build the success of the community as whole.  Again someone has to have the vision at the city, state, and federal level and quite frankly no one does and it's very disheartening.

<rant off>

Just to clarify, I'm not using "outsourcing" in the first-shaking "THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!" sort of way.

But, factually, a lot of products that used to be manufactured in the US are now made elsewhere. Visit any major retailer and you'll see it. In 1950, if you went to a store, most things were made locally.

It's just part of the global economy.

The pendulum could certainly swing back to the US (or possibly Mexico) at some point. I know Africa is currently building infrastructure, but maybe that's more like 20-30yrs away.

The US still has a ridiculous amount of natural resources, so it's still a good place to manufacture, but companies have to figure out how to keep the costs down. Labor cost has been a big hurdle the past 30 years.

[Spotcheck Billy]

3D printing to reduce labor/manufacturig costs in the US?

[brandx]

Just wait until the city passes the living wage requirement. It will be even more of a business killer.

More money in people's pockets is always bad for business

Every dollar extra that people on minimum wage get is one more dollar driving the economy. It's not money they sit on.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Too bad for our competitors who weren't paying as much.

The liberal closes in on the true purpose of regulation such as a minimum wage law: the elimination of competition in the market.

How will the taxes for your welfare programs do if no one has jobs?

[Hards Alumni]

The liberal closes in on the true purpose of regulation such as a minimum wage law: the elimination of competition in the market.

How will the taxes for your welfare programs do if no one has jobs?

We could easily pay our employees what our competitors do, I don't see your point.  We are the only company in Madison that offers 401k, holiday pay, vacation pay, and we pay our employees better.  Prior to the first of the year, we also offered healthcare insurance (no other competitor does, and we only stopped because the portion our employees contributed was more than they would be paying on the healthcare.gov marketplace).  We get the best employees to work for us, and ours metrics with the city and county are the best of any company (at least five years running).  On top of that we are extremely profitable, and are hiring within the next year.  

Get your head out of your political idealist ass and don't talk about what you don't understand.

[Lennys Tap]

More money in people's pockets is always bad for business

Every dollar extra that people on minimum wage get is one more dollar driving the economy. It's not money they sit on.

Then just raise the minimum wage to $500/hr - we'll all be rich!

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

We could easily pay our employees what our competitors do, I don't see your point.  We are the only company in Madison that offers 401k, holiday pay, vacation pay, and we pay our employees better.  Prior to the first of the year, we also offered healthcare insurance (no other competitor does, and we only stopped because the portion our employees contributed was more than they would be paying on the healthcare.gov marketplace).  We get the best employees to work for us, and ours metrics with the city and county are the best of any company (at least five years running).  On top of that we are extremely profitable, and are hiring within the next year.  

Get your head out of your political idealist ass and don't talk about what you don't understand.

Predictable response. Why should you be allowed to target your competition for destruction through regulation rather than providing a better product? Sounds like someone is a tad insecure about his business.

Or maybe you're talking out of your ass and don't work for a real business at all.