Total wealth since 1989

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Yes, I think people are generally want to skip the "starter home" and go right to the place where they are going to raise their kids. Part of this is a function of people getting married later though. Pretty much all of my Marquette friends were married by the time they were 26 or so. That's rare these days.

My youngest is 26, has had the same girlfriend for almost two years, but they are nowhere close to getting married. They both have their own apartments (not in an expensive area though). If they eventually do get married, they still are quite a ways from buying a house.

[dgies9156]

The discussion is interesting and deals with many subsets of why the Millennial generation is where they're at. I'll say it again, I don't think they're that much different than we boomers were, with a couple of exceptions.

What I will suggest is a couple of things. First, on college tuition, my very strong view is that college is a critical element to success. Even if you major in Philosophy, English or even Gender Studies, it teaches you to think and to adapt. Those are skills sorely needed in today's workforce. But the student has to be cognizant of the cost/benefit equation when a decision is made on institution, out-of-pocket tuition and the amount of debt they're taking on. I only see what is published, but it sure seems to me that the cost/benefit equation is often ignored.

The harsh reality is that we all can't go to Marquette. Some of us are fortunate enough to have resources behind us and don't have to worry about debt or tuition. Others may have to go to a smaller public university because that's what we can afford. Regardless, pick carefully and keep in mind that what you get out of college is a function of what you put into it. My children went to Southern Illinois University because of a special program SIU had. There's many great professors and great opportunities there -- if they took advantage of them!

Secondly, on housing, I've learned to HATE HGTV and House Hunters. HGTV has conditioned people to believe they can have a 3,000 square foot starter home with granite countertops, hardwood floors, white kitchens and stainless steel appliances (or whatever is popular today!). Buy what you can afford, keeping in mind that the amenities you need may be things other than what's found in the house. If you live in a major urban center, the great neighborhoods financially may be out of reach -- sorry, that's the market at work. Not even the government can fix that! If it could, San Francisco would be the most affordable city in America!

In the meantime, Millennials, please understand, your parents were just like you are -- 40 years ago! If that scares the hell out of you, too bad!

[Pakuni]

Secondly, on housing, I've learned to HATE HGTV and House Hunters. HGTV has conditioned people to believe they can have a 3,000 square foot starter home with granite countertops, hardwood floors, white kitchens and stainless steel appliances (or whatever is popular today!). Buy what you can afford, keeping in mind that the amenities you need may be things other than what's found in the house. If you live in a major urban center, the great neighborhoods financially may be out of reach -- sorry, that's the market at work. Not even the government can fix that! If it could, San Francisco would be the most affordable city in America!

I think it's a bit much to suggest House Hunters has anything to do with millennials and subsequent generations struggles to afford housing, but I'm often stunned by the budget these people have.
Hi, I'm Dave, and I'm a part-time balloon artist.
I'm Brittany, and I work as a paralegal.
We have a budget of $1.2 million.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

The government can most certainly help fix the cost of housing.  By allowing more housing to be built. 

[Goose]

dgies

I do find it amazing the money being spent by the younger generations. All three of my boys purchased properties in their 20's and all were priced accordingly for a starter home or condo. They have owned their properties for 3-8 years and have built up a nice equity over the years. Two of my sons purchased duplex's and it has worked well for them. That being said, all three would love to upgrade to bigger place, they are planning another 2-3 years before moving to bigger place. College debt is bad, I think being house poor is worse.

[cheebs09]

I think there’s something to the idea of millennials see how their parents live now, and didn’t see the sacrifices made when younger to get to that position. So their expectations aren’t in-line with what they can afford. I know I fall victim to that at times.

I think there’s a lot of people that make poor financial decisions of all ages. I used to listen to the Dave Ramsey show a little bit and the there are people that just don’t know how to handle money. There’s definitely some bad spending to keep up with the Jones’.

I just personally think that some of the advantages previous generations had regarding costs of college and housing are much more difficult to utilize for the current generation without help from parents.

[Pakuni]

I think there’s something to the idea of millennials see how their parents live now, and didn’t see the sacrifices made when younger to get to that position. So their expectations aren’t in-line with what they can afford. I know I fall victim to that at times.

How is this unique to millennials? Did previous generations not see how their parents were living?

[UWW2MU]

How is this unique to millennials? Did previous generations not see how their parents were living?

Boomers (the primary generation that Millenials are born of), definitely live a different life than pretty much any generation before them.  The home sizes, average wealth, technology and luxuries, etc are not the same.  Boomers were born post war when 1000 sq ft homes and a single family tv was the norm (if that, depending on year).   

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

There's an estimated housing shortage nationally of 3 million houses. But yes, the main culprit is because millennials standards are too high 

[Pakuni]

Boomers (the primary generation that Millenials are born of), definitely live a different life than pretty much any generation before them.  The home sizes, average wealth, technology and luxuries, etc are not the same.  Boomers were born post war when 1000 sq ft homes and a single family tv was the norm (if that, depending on year).

According to this, the median house size in 1975 (when Gen Xers were coming up) was a tad under 1,600 square feet.
In the late 80s/early 90s, when the Millennials were growing up, it was about 1,750 square feet.
I'm not sure that 200-250ish extra square feet really makes that big of a difference.

The real growth in home sizes came after 2000, so I guess it's Gen Z we have to watch out for.

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-us-homes-today-are-1000-square-feet-larger-than-in-1973-and-living-space-per-person-has-nearly-doubled/

[UWW2MU]

There's an estimated housing shortage nationally of 3 million houses. But yes, the main culprit is because millennials standards are too high 

There is certainly a housing shortage.  But again, where is the shortage and who defines the shortage?  It is not as simple as saying there are 3 million less houses built than are needed for people to live.


Going back to my statement, if you're a college grad 5 years out of school and/or a journman tradesperson... I'll show you homes you can afford in the Metro area (limited there only b/c that is what I know... I'm sure similar situation in other non overly-hot huge market).

[UWW2MU]

According to this, the median house size in 1975 (when Gen Xers were coming up) was a tad under 1,600 square feet.
In the late 80s/early 90s, when the Millennials were growing up, it was about 1,750 square feet.
I'm not sure that 200-250ish extra square feet really makes that big of a difference.

The real growth in home sizes came after 2000, so I guess it's Gen Z we have to watch out for.

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-us-homes-today-are-1000-square-feet-larger-than-in-1973-and-living-space-per-person-has-nearly-doubled/

GenX and Millenials aren't that different necessarily in that regard, except GenX largely had a head start on home buying so they aren't trying to buy a first home.  Plus, many Millenials' parents are the ones who built those houses in the late 90's-2000's.

[tower912]

Around here, in small towns 25 miles away from the metropolitan center, 'fixer-uppers' can still be had for a song.     Now, do you want to live a 40 minute drive from a metropolitan center?    Can you fix up a fixer-upper?     One of my best friend's sons was willing to do so and bought his first house for right around a $100k.    He is in a town of 500 people, and he has a lot of work to do on the house.    But you have to be willing to do that.     

FWIW, I was talking with my wife about some of these issues and she reminded me about coupon books and how for the first several years of our marriage, our choice of restaurant was dictated by the coupons we had.   

[UWW2MU]

Around here, in small towns 25 miles away from the metropolitan center, 'fixer-uppers' can still be had for a song.     Now, do you want to live a 40 minute drive from a metropolitan center?    Can you fix up a fixer-upper?     One of my best friend's sons was willing to do so and bought his first house for right around a $100k.    He is in a town of 500 people, and he has a lot of work to do on the house.    But you have to be willing to do that.     

FWIW, I was talking with my wife about some of these issues and she reminded me about coupon books and how for the first several years of our marriage, our choice of restaurant was dictated by the coupons we had.

Are you insinuating that Millenials refuse to use coupons, sir?!  The gall you have!

[rocky_warrior]

Are you insinuating that Millenials refuse to use coupons, sir?!  The gall you have!

What's a coupon?

[tower912]

No.   My wife insinuated that.    Therefore, it is by definition indisputable

[UWW2MU]

I want to be very very clear on something.

I am a millenial.

I really really want to use coupons.

I cut coupons.

I don't use coupons... they sit until they expire and I throw them away.




It feels very good to get that off of my chest!

Oh and also gift cards.  But instead of expiring, I just lose them.   

[dgies9156]

The government can most certainly help fix the cost of housing.  By allowing more housing to be built.

Then San Francisco, the capital of the nanny state, should be awash in affordable housing!

All those woke Democrats in San Francisco are really woke, until someone proposes to build affordable housing in their neighborhood. Then they become as NIMBY as any Reagan-style Republican!

Yeah, you're right, but permitting for affordable housing is tough, especially in upwardly mobile suburban communities.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Going back to my statement, if you're a college grad 5 years out of school and/or a journman tradesperson... I'll show you homes you can afford in the Metro area (limited there only b/c that is what I know... I'm sure similar situation in other non overly-hot huge market).

No you can't. You can find individual families homes that they can afford, but you can't find one for every family looking for one. Especially considering that starter homes are being bought up by Boomers and Gen Xers who have a significant advantage due to previously earned equity and are turning them into rental properties.

You've lost sight of the conversation being had. We are talking about the differences between challenges faced by boomers entering the housing market and millennials entering the housing market. Boomers did not enter the market facing a housing shortage of this magnitude. Boomers did not have to compete with the Silent Generation and Greatest Generation buying up starter homes because they can. Boomers weren't carrying staggering student loan debts and facing record inflation, both of which are far outpacing wages. Boomers didn't have two housing crises within a dozen years of each other right as they were entering the housing market. When Boomers entered the market, houses were being built at record rates and since the great recession they are being built at the lowest rate in decades. Boomers are also living much longer than the Greatest Generation did, which is a good thing, but it does mean that they are staying in their homes longer and medical advances are making it easier to avoid nursing homes and assisted living.

All of these are much more to blame than millennials having too high of standards. It's a red herring to deflect from all of these other issues. Yes, there are millennials whose standards are too high. Just like they were in past generations. They have nothing to do with the current housing situation. There are other factors that are millennials own fault such as getting married later and delaying having kids but they are also minor compared to the other systemic factors.

And before anyone pegs this as a "woe is me" post, it's not. My family is fine. We're renting, which is akin to setting money on fire, but it's what we have to do and we're making it work. We're scrounging as best we can and will one day buy a starter home that will not be nearly what we wish it was but will be ecstatic to have. This post is just asking for some honesty about the current housing situation and to knock off this nonsense about millennials being too picky being the cause of the housing crisis.

[UWW2MU]

No you can't. You can find individual families homes that they can afford, but you can't find one for every family looking for one. Especially considering that starter homes are being bought up by Boomers and Gen Xers who have a significant advantage due to previously earned equity and are turning them into rental properties.

You've lost sight of the conversation being had. We are talking about the differences between challenges faced by boomers entering the housing market and millennials entering the housing market. Boomers did not enter the market facing a housing shortage of this magnitude. Boomers did not have to compete with the Silent Generation and Greatest Generation buying up starter homes because they can. Boomers weren't carrying staggering student loan debts and facing record inflation, both of which are far outpacing wages. Boomers didn't have two housing crises within a dozen years of each other right as they were entering the housing market. When Boomers entered the market, houses were being built at record rates and since the great recession they are being built at the lowest rate in decades. Boomers are also living much longer than the Greatest Generation did, which is a good thing, but it does mean that they are staying in their homes longer and medical advances are making it easier to avoid nursing homes and assisted living.

All of these are much more to blame than millennials having too high of standards. It's a red herring to deflect from all of these other issues. Yes, there are millennials whose standards are too high. Just like they were in past generations. They have nothing to do with the current housing situation. There are other factors that are millennials own fault such as getting married later and delaying having kids but they are also minor compared to the other systemic factors.

And before anyone pegs this as a "woe is me" post, it's not. My family is fine. We're renting, which is akin to setting money on fire, but it's what we have to do and we're making it work. We're scrounging as best we can and will one day buy a starter home that will not be nearly what we wish it was but will be ecstatic to have. This post is just asking for some honesty about the current housing situation and to knock off this nonsense about millennials being too picky being the cause of the housing crisis.

I'm not blind to the challenges a first time home buyer faces or that prices are higher, especially in the last few years.  Let's also not pretend like Boomers and others had it easy either.  Soaring inflation and interest rates, S&L crisis, etc. all happened.  Lucky are the ones who were house hunting in the glorious 90's!          I'm just saying, despite all the headwinds, there are home ownership options out there, just maybe not the ones people want.  If you want to call that being picky, ok sure.  Those are your words, not mine.  I just see it as being realistic BECAUSE of those challenges you mentioned.


Personal question, if I may ask.   Are you and Mrs. Tamu willing to buy a 1200 sq ft house with 1 bath and a interior style that could be be described as vintage 1970's within a 40 min commute to work?  That is otherwise structurally and mechanically sound though. 

[MU82]

No you can't. You can find individual families homes that they can afford, but you can't find one for every family looking for one. Especially considering that starter homes are being bought up by Boomers and Gen Xers who have a significant advantage due to previously earned equity and are turning them into rental properties.

You've lost sight of the conversation being had. We are talking about the differences between challenges faced by boomers entering the housing market and millennials entering the housing market. Boomers did not enter the market facing a housing shortage of this magnitude. Boomers did not have to compete with the Silent Generation and Greatest Generation buying up starter homes because they can. Boomers weren't carrying staggering student loan debts and facing record inflation, both of which are far outpacing wages. Boomers didn't have two housing crises within a dozen years of each other right as they were entering the housing market. When Boomers entered the market, houses were being built at record rates and since the great recession they are being built at the lowest rate in decades. Boomers are also living much longer than the Greatest Generation did, which is a good thing, but it does mean that they are staying in their homes longer and medical advances are making it easier to avoid nursing homes and assisted living.

All of these are much more to blame than millennials having too high of standards. It's a red herring to deflect from all of these other issues. Yes, there are millennials whose standards are too high. Just like they were in past generations. They have nothing to do with the current housing situation. There are other factors that are millennials own fault such as getting married later and delaying having kids but they are also minor compared to the other systemic factors.

And before anyone pegs this as a "woe is me" post, it's not. My family is fine. We're renting, which is akin to setting money on fire, but it's what we have to do and we're making it work. We're scrounging as best we can and will one day buy a starter home that will not be nearly what we wish it was but will be ecstatic to have. This post is just asking for some honesty about the current housing situation and to knock off this nonsense about millennials being too picky being the cause of the housing crisis.

OK ... I think you've seen that I've defended Millennials and asked Boomers to stop generalizing too much about them. But here you are, generalizing a ton about Boomers and what we faced.

I'll start with this:

Boomers did not enter the market facing a housing shortage of this magnitude. Boomers did not have to compete with the Silent Generation and Greatest Generation buying up starter homes because they can. Boomers weren't carrying staggering student loan debts and facing record inflation, both of which are far outpacing wages. Boomers didn't have two housing crises within a dozen years of each other right as they were entering the housing market. When Boomers entered the market, houses were being built at record rates and since the great recession they are being built at the lowest rate in decades.

Some of that is true, some is questionable (Boomers didn't face high inflation?), and it also omits plenty.

Boomers around my age and older faced a recession, staggering inflation and record-high mortgage rates. Rates have only recently gone from historic lows (under 3%) up to 6%+, and I get that makes it difficult for some to get mortgages now. But TAMU, do you know what the 30-year mortgage rate was when we bought our first house in 1985? Fourteen effen percent! The only way we qualified was to get a 1-year ARM at the wonderful rate of 8 7/8% ... and then we had to sweat it out -- how high would it climb after that? The loans we got on our cars were 12% or higher.

Oh, and there were just about no jobs when I graduated in 1982 -- it was a very deep and painful recession, and things were just starting to get better 2-3 years later. I had student loans to pay back, as did my wife; it took us years. Yes, all of the costs were lower -- houses, cars, college education -- but our salaries also were a relative pittance back then.

No, we didn't face the same kind of housing shortage there is now, but every time we looked at a house we even kind of liked, it seemed like it was just a little too expensive for us to buy.

I'm sure there are Boomers who had an easier path, but probably not as many as you think. TAMU, you make it sound like we all were swimming in cash, that recessions and inflation didn't exist, that mortgage rates were wonderful, and that we could simply pick and choose among the zillions of available houses because we could afford them all. Come on, man!

Yes, I sympathize with what younger generations are facing now when it comes to housing. My son is in his mid-30s and he and his wife bought their first house (Chicago area) about 2 years ago. They went into the process with a long list of what they wanted, but reality soon hit -- they couldn't get close to buying their dream house. They ended up buying a big house in a good suburb but it needs a TON of work, almost top to bottom, and they are not handy. They are learning to do what they can themselves but otherwise slowly paying for the most important projects to be done. They were, however, very lucky to get a historically low mortgage rate -- they couldn't have bought without it, and I definitely can see how even today's rates (which are half of what many Boomers faced) are preventing them from buying homes.

As for all the other stuff people are saying here -- what Millennials spend on avocado toast and all that other crap, I'm not gonna go there. So much is exaggerated, over-generalized, and/or full of anecdotal "evidence." Some Millennials throw money around like they are rich, some hoard it like they are poor, and most are somewhere in between.

[swoopem]

I’m a millennial and I can say I’ve never had a single bite of a avocado toast

Now I’m going to go spend money on traveling to Marquette games

[Jay Bee]

I wonder what the square footage is of each Scooper’s house. Also, what they named their pets.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm not blind to the challenges a first time home buyer faces or that prices are higher, especially in the last few years.  Let's also not pretend like Boomers and others had it easy either.  Soaring inflation and interest rates, S&L crisis, etc. all happened.  Lucky are the ones who were house hunting in the glorious 90's!          I'm just saying, despite all the headwinds, there are home ownership options out there, just maybe not the ones people want.  If you want to call that being picky, ok sure.  Those are your words, not mine.  I just see it as being realistic BECAUSE of those challenges you mentioned.


Personal question, if I may ask.   Are you and Mrs. Tamu willing to buy a 1200 sq ft house with 1 bath and a interior style that could be be described as vintage 1970's within a 40 min commute to work?  That is otherwise structurally and mechanically sound though.

Lol. Cut 15 minutes off the commute, add a half bath, and change it to vintage 1950s with significant issues and that's what I'm currently renting. We tried to talk to our landlord about buying it off them and they told us that they can make a lot more renting it out.

And again, no one is arguing that there are no affordable houses period. The conversation is about the barriers to entry now versus when Boomers were entering the market. And yes, there are more barriers now, significantly more.

[Spotcheck Billy]

Personal question, if I may ask.   Are you and Mrs. Tamu willing to buy a 1200 sq ft house with 1 bath and a interior style that could be be described as vintage 1970's within a 40 min commute to work?  That is otherwise structurally and mechanically sound though. 

This is basically what we did in 1992. 975 square feet, cheapest house on the block and we fixed it up whenever possible. That roof did take about 5 years to be able to afford replacing, bowls on the counters during rain storms etc.

I moved so many times before this house that I have sworn to never move again. Now we're the old timers in the neighborhood.