MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: jesmu84 on September 28, 2022, 03:51:34 PM
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https://twitter.com/JStein_WaPo/status/1575159955191103489?t=eHQHsCkHDLcMnmPr7pANWw&s=19
When does the trickle down start?
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It was all just a scam. And it just happens every time they are in charge. Hey! Hey! Another tax cut for the billionaires. They’ll use the money to create more jobs.
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https://twitter.com/JStein_WaPo/status/1575159955191103489?t=eHQHsCkHDLcMnmPr7pANWw&s=19
When does the trickle down start?
Reaganomics ended in 1988. Your numbers are from 1989 on. Blame Bush sr., Clinton, Bush, Obama and Trump. Biden will reverse the trend - wealth will go down for everyone.
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Reaganomics ended in 1988. Your numbers are from 1989 on. Blame Bush sr., Clinton, Bush, Obama and Trump. Biden will reverse the trend - wealth will go down for everyone.
Trickle-down economics is a myth. Capitalism ain’t cut like that. If anyone learned anything from the 80’s, the idea was preposterous from the get go.
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The tweet states the top 10% average household wealth went from $2.5MM to $6.4MM from 1989 to today. FWIW, that almost literally tracks inflation. Cumulative inflation would raise that $2.5M to roughly $6.0MM with no other factors.
Among many other things, that bottom 50% number shows some of the severe issues with debt, lending, and borrowing in this country.
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What I took away most from the graph/series of tweets is that the bottom 50% just isn't working hard enough
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The tweet states the top 10% average household wealth went from $2.5MM to $6.4MM from 1989 to today. FWIW, that almost literally tracks inflation. Cumulative inflation would raise that $2.5M to roughly $6.0MM with no other factors.
You have a good point in general, but your numbers are inaccurate for what they posted. They were comparing 1989 to 2019.
The $2.5M in 1989 translates to $5.15M in 2019. That means their net wealth has increased by almost 25% more than from inflation alone. Given that they hold 34% of the wealth, that is a sizable redistribution of wealth from the bottom 50-75% upwards to the top 10%.
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Reaganomics ended in 1988. Your numbers are from 1989 on. Blame Bush sr., Clinton, Bush, Obama and Trump. Biden will reverse the trend - wealth will go down for everyone.
Didn't work under Reagan either.
The new paper, by David Hope of the London School of Economics and Julian Limberg of King's College London, examines 18 developed countries — from Australia to the United States — over a 50-year period from 1965 to 2015. The study compared countries that passed tax cuts in a specific year, such as the U.S. in 1982 when President Ronald Reagan slashed taxes on the wealthy, with those that didn't, and then examined their economic outcomes.
Per capita gross domestic product and unemployment rates were nearly identical after five years in countries that slashed taxes on the rich and in those that didn't, the study found.
But the analysis discovered one major change: The incomes of the rich grew much faster in countries where tax rates were lowered. Instead of trickling down to the middle class, tax cuts for the rich may not accomplish much more than help the rich keep more of their riches and exacerbate income inequality, the research indicates.
"Based on our research, we would argue that the economic rationale for keeping taxes on the rich low is weak," Julian Limberg, a co-author of the study and a lecturer in public policy at King's College London, said in an email to CBS MoneyWatch. "In fact, if we look back into history, the period with the highest taxes on the rich — the postwar period — was also a period with high economic growth and low unemployment."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tax-cuts-rich-50-years-no-trickle-down/
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You have a good point in general, but your numbers are inaccurate for what they posted. They were comparing 1989 to 2019.
The $2.5M in 1989 translates to $5.15M in 2019. That means their net wealth has increased by almost 25% more than from inflation alone. Given that they hold 34% of the wealth, that is a sizable redistribution of wealth from the bottom 50-75% upwards to the top 10%.
Good catch.
I'd be interested to see the updated numbers. We all heard what billionaires did during the pandemic, but not many people know billionaires. We almost all know people that would be in that top 10% bucket, some of which I know didn't profit like gangbusters in 2020-2021, so it feels a bit more tangible.
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Trickle-down economics is a myth. Capitalism ain’t cut like that. If anyone learned anything from the 80’s, the idea was preposterous from the get go.
Hasn't stopped the new British PM from once again recycling the same failed idea.
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Hasn't stopped the new British PM from once again recycling the same failed idea.
Britain leaving the EU was really a dumb idea. Really they should have just gone all in on Europe instead. Now they’re just going to be hanging out there with no easy access to markets.
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Britain leaving the EU was really a dumb idea. Really they should have just gone all in on Europe instead. Now they’re just going to be hanging out there with no easy access to markets.
And no empire. The people of the island are delusional.
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Brexit = maga
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Britain leaving the EU was really a dumb idea. Really they should have just gone all in on Europe instead. Now they’re just going to be hanging out there with no easy access to markets.
As a life long native of England, please elaborate about how 'dumb' your fellow British are.
(my fellow American's opinions of places they have not lived in and of people they don't know don't carry much weight)
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Brexit = maga
Without as much terrorism.
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Without as much terrorism.
Impressive work shoehorning that obsession here, kudos!
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Impressive work shoehorning that obsession here, kudos!
Yes, I'm obsessed with terrorist acts perpetrated by Americans against America.
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Yes, I'm obsessed with terrorist acts perpetrated by Americans against America.
We know, its your own 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon on nearly every thread in here ;D
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As a life long native of England, please elaborate about how 'dumb' your fellow British are.
(my fellow American's opinions of places they have not lived in and of people they don't know don't carry much weight)
I guess you can dunk then
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As a life long native of England, please elaborate about how 'dumb' your fellow British are.
(my fellow American's opinions of places they have not lived in and of people they don't know don't carry much weight)
I never said the British were dumb. I said leaving the EU was a dumb idea.
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Tech multi-billionaires have lost $315 billion in 2022. But don't worry -- they're still richer than they were before the pandemic.
https://www.vox.com/recode/2022/9/29/23377578/tech-billionaires-pandemic-wealth-2022?campaign_id=4&emc=edit_dk_20220930&instance_id=73325&nl=dealbook®i_id=108420427&segment_id=108537&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
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You know gang, rather than whining about the rich getting richer, why not focus on how to make the middle class more affluent?
Taxes aint the answer, gang. Transfer payments aint the answer. If they were, Chicago would be nirvana!
Look, it will take investment for communities and people to succeed. It also takes personal sacrifice and a willingness to set and attain a goal. Government can help by encouraging investment in low and moderate income communities, but the communities have to take action on their own. That's why I admire Father Flager in Chicago. I don't always agree with his politics but his campaigning against guns, drugs, liquor stores and the lottery among other things and his sense that everyone has worth is just doing God's work. And if it was emulated, it would go a long way toward positive change!
I don't begrudge anyone whose innovation, creativity and brilliance made her lots of money. Lots more than I'll ever see or dream of. Rather, I'd work to encourage investment and opportunity! Look what Amazon has done for many communities in the United States!
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Look what Amazon has done for many communities in the United States!
Aside from killing mom and pop stores, there's this:
https://www.planetizen.com/news/2021/12/115577-impact-amazon-warehouses-communities#:~:text=Often%20located%20in%20low%2Dincome,noise%20pollution%2C%20and%20traffic%20congestion. (https://www.planetizen.com/news/2021/12/115577-impact-amazon-warehouses-communities#:~:text=Often%20located%20in%20low%2Dincome,noise%20pollution%2C%20and%20traffic%20congestion.)
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Aside from killing mom and pop stores, there's this:
https://www.planetizen.com/news/2021/12/115577-impact-amazon-warehouses-communities#:~:text=Often%20located%20in%20low%2Dincome,noise%20pollution%2C%20and%20traffic%20congestion. (https://www.planetizen.com/news/2021/12/115577-impact-amazon-warehouses-communities#:~:text=Often%20located%20in%20low%2Dincome,noise%20pollution%2C%20and%20traffic%20congestion.)
Said the same thing about Walmart a generation ago.
And chain grocers before that.
And on and on and on.
Look, I'm no great fan of Walmart but you learn compete with what comes down the road or you go out of business. There's lots of small stores that survived after Walmart, Kroger or Target. They offer something that the chains can't.
Bottom line: Building wealth requires investment and ingenuity.
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dgies
I agree completely. You need investment, ingenuity and balls. One thing that I think hurt some startups was the access to easy investment and too big of an investment. Sometimes eating some dirt along the way is the best way to build a business.
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You know gang, rather than whining about the rich getting richer, why not focus on how to make the middle class more affluent?
Taxes aint the answer, gang. Transfer payments aint the answer. If they were, Chicago would be nirvana!
Look, it will take investment for communities and people to succeed. It also takes personal sacrifice and a willingness to set and attain a goal. Government can help by encouraging investment in low and moderate income communities, but the communities have to take action on their own. That's why I admire Father Flager in Chicago. I don't always agree with his politics but his campaigning against guns, drugs, liquor stores and the lottery among other things and his sense that everyone has worth is just doing God's work. And if it was emulated, it would go a long way toward positive change!
I don't begrudge anyone whose innovation, creativity and brilliance made her lots of money. Lots more than I'll ever see or dream of. Rather, I'd work to encourage investment and opportunity! Look what Amazon has done for many communities in the United States!
We've tried your way most of my life, and look at the results.
The real problem with the average US citizen is that they think they have a path to becoming super wealthy. It's truly the big lie that we're told from a young age. "Just work really hard and you'll end up rich!" If only it were that easy.
Also, Amazon is a rot on this country. Amazon is what Walmart was in the early 2000s on steroids. They need to be broken up along with half a dozen other large corporations and media conglomerates.
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Bottom line: Building wealth requires investment and ingenuity.
And sweeping the countless unlawful business practices under the table. Small business cannot afford to do these things. I don't think there is enough bandwith to list all of the bad stuff Walmart has done.
Here's a start though :
https://www.corp-research.org/wal-mart (https://www.corp-research.org/wal-mart)
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And sweeping the countless unlawful business practices under the table. Small business cannot afford to do these things. I don't think there is enough bandwith to list all of the bad stuff Walmart has done.
Here's a start though :
https://www.corp-research.org/wal-mart (https://www.corp-research.org/wal-mart)
Not to mention building actual wealth (not a reasonable living) requires wealth to begin with.
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Not to mention building actual wealth (not a reasonable living) requires wealth to begin with.
Jesus would probably manage a Walmart
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Hards
We have worked with countless startups that have utilized the Amazon platform and done so with various degrees of success. That said, we have several clients that have done off the charts well and it gives me great satisfaction being part of their sucess. The American Dream is alive and well, just a little more difficult navigated the water.
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Hards
We have worked with countless startups that have utilized the Amazon platform and done so with various degrees of success. That said, we have several clients that have done off the charts well and it gives me great satisfaction being part of their sucess. The American Dream is alive and well, just a little more difficult navigated the water.
I suggest you look into Amazon's practices then. They routinely sell a vendor's product and then offer to buy them out if they're selling well. If the vendor refuses Amazon makes a cheaper version of the product and bites into the original vendor's profits to the extent that their business becomes untenable.
For every success story, there are many like this that people never hear about.
Here is a success story, but with hurdles having to be jumped through... that were put in place by Amazon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbxWGjQ2szQ
I own products from Peak Design (Highly recommend anything they make if you're interested in quality products) but Amazon tried to do them dirty.... And they're certainly not alone.
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Hards
Selling on Amazon for a small company is not a piece of cake and the number that fail dwarf the success stories, no argument there. We have client that has followed the Amazon model of buying out successful brands and have created an unreal company and made dozens of small owners quite wealthy. This firm is run by very smart folks, well funded and have seen great success. There are plenty of success stories out there, most not reported on.
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Hards
Selling on Amazon for a small company is not a piece of cake and the number that fail dwarf the success stories, no argument there. We have client that has followed the Amazon model of buying out successful brands and have created an unreal company and made dozens of small owners quite wealthy. This firm is run by very smart folks, well funded and have seen great success. There are plenty of success stories out there, most not reported on.
Ah, so they're just an investment firm.
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Hards
They are a group of guys that started a brand and had success on Amazon and felt their best path to growth/profits was to acquire other smaller brands. All acquired brands are run under one umbrella by a really smart group of people. If you are asking if it is a PE group, the answer would be no.
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Ah, so they're just an investment firm.
Every company that expands by acquisition or growing their portfolio is an investment firm?
For all the predatory aspects of Amazon as a selling platform, I will say that their AWS offering has been a god send for many smaller companies and changed the server/computing game for the better.
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Jesus would probably manage a Walmart
Badly. He'd be giving away all the crap to poor people for free.
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Badly. He'd be giving away all the crap to poor people for free.
I mean, Walmart sells a bunch of crap to poor people for nearly free, so close.
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I mean, Walmart sells a bunch of crap to poor people for nearly free, so close.
What would Jesus charge for loaves and fishes?
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What would Jesus charge for loaves and fishes?
He’d certainly help with supply shortages.
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Putting the ails of the bottom 50% on individuals is such a crock of crap.
"Personal sacrifice"? Gtfo
Government needs to do more anti-monopoly/trust enforcement. More labor support.
Individuals at the top of the pyramid aren't "sacrificing" and didn't sacrifice to get there. They are, however, using their money and power to influence the world to increase both. We need countervailing structures in place. Which, again, doesn't come from any individual at the bottom.
Would anyone be upset if we returned to an economic mindset of the Roosevelt era? The following decades seemed pretty solid for most, economically.
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I mean, Walmart sells a bunch of crap to poor people for nearly free, so close.
Matches their pay scales.
Having done business with them through the years, as much of a financial behemoth they are, they sure leave a lot of money on the table with out of stocks (not supply chain related) and insufficient staffing (not silent quitting related).
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Rico
It is funny but I say on a weekly basis on how much money has been left on the table by companies outsourcing to SE Asia. I have been doing this line of work for over thirty years and I am amazed on the money left in China, Vietnam, etc. by major companies. I wish I could do a study on this and accurately give numbers.
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We've tried your way most of my life, and look at the results.
The real problem with the average US citizen is that they think they have a path to becoming super wealthy. It's truly the big lie that we're told from a young age. "Just work really hard and you'll end up rich!" If only it were that easy.
Also, Amazon is a rot on this country. Amazon is what Walmart was in the early 2000s on steroids. They need to be broken up along with half a dozen other large corporations and media conglomerates.
The results: The United States has built a society others in the world look up to. For heaven's sake, the fact that 2.0 million-plus people a year would risk life and limb to cross our border from the south (forget your politics and mine for a moment) speaks volumes to what we have built in this country, as is.
Define "super wealthy'. Nobody ever told me I'd be Bill Gates, Warren Buffett or Jeff Bezos just because I was born American or born into a middle class family. If somebody told you that, then I'm sorry to hear it. What I was told was, "in life, there are no guarantees." But our best chances came if we worked hard, prepared, sacrificed and did the best we could. The other good advice I received was, "obey the law" and, "USE YOUR HEAD -- THINK IT OUT!!!"
Candidly, this "freakin boomer" thinks too much of our Millennials and the Gen Zers are too self-absorbed. Maybe it is us Boomers' fault for the way we raised our children, but there seems to be a sense that if I have something, you should get the same thing. Period. In our case, our children came "late" in our lives, in our late 30s and early 40s. They never saw the struggles and sacrifice my wife and I made for our future. They are going through those same struggles now and missed the example.
Of course, our parents said the same thing about we "freakin boomers" a generation ago!
Brother Jesmu: I'm not sure I agree with you. Bill Gates is a smart guy who developed operating systems that made the computer we type on possible. Did he sacrifice, heck I don't know. But he used his ingenuity to get where he is today. Why punish success?
I can speak for myself. We saved. We lived hand-to-mouth for longer than I want to remember. You didn't see a BMW or Porsche in our driveway and we did what we had to do so that when the bad times came (there were more than I want to remember there too!), we survived. When I was a reporter, I'd go into union halls and get harassed for being a "college boy," who made less than the guys on the line. I prepared and they didn't. Results speak for themselves!
My point is that yeah, I worked hard, took advantage of opportunities as they presented themselves and, in more than a few cases, put my views about things on the back burner and listened. That mattered and while I'm not Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos, I'm not fussing about my life or screaming because otheres have what I do not.
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Every company that expands by acquisition or growing their portfolio is an investment firm?
For all the predatory aspects of Amazon as a selling platform, I will say that their AWS offering has been a god send for many smaller companies and changed the server/computing game for the better.
I don't disagree, but spin it off.
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Rico
It is funny but I say on a weekly basis on how much money has been left on the table by companies outsourcing to SE Asia. I have been doing this line of work for over thirty years and I am amazed on the money left in China, Vietnam, etc. by major companies. I wish I could do a study on this and accurately give numbers.
It would be staggering, I’m sure. The short term profit loss to proper inventory levels and staffing would benefit them long term. A lot of retail management bonuses are structured around hourly pay and inventory and that’s a part of the problem. Still, when I’d walk through Wal-Marts or even Targets, the out of stocks would make shopping them on a regular basis a headache for me. I know the thought processes are different for those looking to get by, so I understand they’ll buy something.
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Jesmu84 and hards and their economic takes make me laugh.
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Ziggy
I love their take because it highlights to me just how big of opportunities are still out there. The more guys that think the dream is over, the better for the guys chasing the dream. Until the day I die, I am going to be chasing the American Dream and doing so with excitement.
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It would be staggering, I’m sure. The short term profit loss to proper inventory levels and staffing would benefit them long term. A lot of retail management bonuses are structured around hourly pay and inventory and that’s a part of the problem. Still, when I’d walk through Wal-Marts or even Targets, the out of stocks would make shopping them on a regular basis a headache for me. I know the thought processes are different for those looking to get by, so I understand they’ll buy something.
did someone steal your log-in?
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dgies
Another spot on post. I once again agree with every word in the post.
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The results: The United States has built a society others in the world look up to. For heaven's sake, the fact that 2.0 million-plus people a year would risk life and limb to cross our border from the south (forget your politics and mine for a moment) speaks volumes to what we have built in this country, as is.
Define "super wealthy'. Nobody ever told me I'd be Bill Gates, Warren Buffett or Jeff Bezos just because I was born American or born into a middle class family. If somebody told you that, then I'm sorry to hear it. What I was told was, "in life, there are no guarantees." But our best chances came if we worked hard, prepared, sacrificed and did the best we could. The other good advice I received was, "obey the law" and, "USE YOUR HEAD -- THINK IT OUT!!!"
Candidly, this "freakin boomer" thinks too much of our Millennials and the Gen Zers are too self-absorbed. Maybe it is us Boomers' fault for the way we raised our children, but there seems to be a sense that if I have something, you should get the same thing. Period. In our case, our children came "late" in our lives, in our late 30s and early 40s. They never saw the struggles and sacrifice my wife and I made for our future. They are going through those same struggles now and missed the example.
Of course, our parents said the same thing about we "freakin boomers" a generation ago!
Brother Jesmu: I'm not sure I agree with you. Bill Gates is a smart guy who developed operating systems that made the computer we type on possible. Did he sacrifice, heck I don't know. But he used his ingenuity to get where he is today. Why punish success?
I can speak for myself. We saved. We lived hand-to-mouth for longer than I want to remember. You didn't see a BMW or Porsche in our driveway and we did what we had to do so that when the bad times came (there were more than I want to remember there too!), we survived. When I was a reporter, I'd go into union halls and get harassed for being a "college boy," who made less than the guys on the line. I prepared and they didn't. Results speak for themselves!
My point is that yeah, I worked hard, took advantage of opportunities as they presented themselves and, in more than a few cases, put my views about things on the back burner and listened. That mattered and while I'm not Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos, I'm not fussing about my life or screaming because otheres have what I do not.
We don't have a society that the world looks up to. That is American Exceptionalism, and it is a lie. We get 2 million immigrants from the South border annually partially because we have had a large hand in destabilizing their countries for decades. They're coming to America not for the American Dream, they're just trying to not get murdered.
You know why we're #1 on the world stage, and probably will be for a long time? We are uninvadeable, have global military power, and control the global shipping lanes. For a long time this was the UK. But they lost their empire. We don't have an empire to lose, but we can implode. Best way to do that is to continue lining the pockets of the super wealthy. The wealth gap in the US increases every year. From 1983 to 2016, the share of aggregate wealth going to upper-income families increased from 60% to 79% Those were the years that millennials were children... your generations hay day. A generation of union destruction, minimum wage stagnation, and globalization are surely to blame, but who put those policies in place?
Super wealthy? You're not it. I'm not it. No one on this board is super wealthy. No one told me that I'd get to be those guys because I'm an American. Hell, I'm not sure how you are misunderstanding my quote. And the super wealthy? We don't need them. Billionaires should not exist. The accumulation of that much wealth is morally deplorable. I'm sure most of these neo-aristocrats could easily thrive below the billionaire line.
Hilarious commentary on the youth of the nation. Your generation is the "GOT MINE, GET BENT" generation. You're passing us down a world that is falling apart after having been privy to the most successful stretch of time globally. Are you guys to blame for everything? Nah, but you're generation has been in charge now for a few decades and again, the results are pretty rough. Furthermore, have you been on Facebook recently? That place is loaded with self-absorbed boomers who can't tell reality from fantasy.
As to your last two points, good for you. That's the story of everyone. We all go through hard times and easy ones, but shouldn't our society do better than we are and take care of the basic needs of it's citizens? We can certainly afford it. Other countries do it and aren't bankrupt. Frankly, I don't whine about not 'getting mine or not having what others have. Life is like that. I just fundamentally believe that our wealth gap in the US is the only reason we fail as a country. Continuing on the path of the last four decades will make this problem worse. I just want everyone else to be able to succeed, and not live in a world where 60% of people are living paycheck to paycheck.
Try to not kick the ladder out from beneath you on your way to the top dg, you've had a lot more advantages on your way up than most.
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Ziggy
I love their take because it highlights to me just how big of opportunities are still out there. The more guys that think the dream is over, the better for the guys chasing the dream. Until the day I die, I am going to be chasing the American Dream and doing so with excitement.
Yes because people are incapable of successfully participating in a society that they'd like to change. ::)
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Jesmu84 and hards and their economic takes make me laugh.
I'm glad to be the jester in your kingdom, good sir.
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What would Jesus charge for loaves and fishes?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/H4k2afjL7IlBjdCR0qUTPm5xXiOnXNDxjADIp4ux04ClCOxOLjX091HeIIBmRWx0=w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu)
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Try to not kick the ladder out from beneath you on your way to the top dg, you've had a lot more advantages on your way up than most.
You know not of what you speak. You have no idea what I have or haven't done with my time, talent and treasure in my life. So to make that kind of an observation is not smart.
Look, the ladder was literally and accidentally knocked out from under me last December when I was getting things from the attic. Damn, it hurt then and I'm still not fully recovered. I may never fully recover from it. I would note that the folks that have been successful know that's true for us and for society as well. You knock the ladder out from those that have been successful and those who made it -- however they did -- and inevitably they fall too. And the consequences are much worse than my badly broken ankle.
Inevitably, if you don't offer opportunity, bad economics fills the void!
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We don't have a society that the world looks up to. That is American Exceptionalism, and it is a lie. We get 2 million immigrants from the South border annually partially because we have had a large hand in destabilizing their countries for decades. They're coming to America not for the American Dream, they're just trying to not get murdered.
While I don't agree with some points of your post, its reasonable and not hysterical. However, I'll take a bit of opposition to the start of this paragraph. There was near absolute truth to this a generation or two ago that created American Exceptionalism. But now I feel that this has swung too far over to the other side to a realm of "nobody looks up to the US anymore" which is BS. At least economically.
Ask anyone here who does business internationally, its still a gold standard and aspirational. Doesn't matter if I'm in India or Southeast Asia or even parts of Europe. People still clamor to get here, to start businesses or do business here. I know small business owners in Belgium, France, and Germany that Ive spoken to in the last few years that would uproot their operations to the US if not for family or other ties. And those are the same people that made Trump jokes or are baffled by gun violence here.
Other countries have caught up or become more desirable in comparison, sure. But thats being fit and content to stay. Still very few other countries have the same economic opportunity draw. People lose sight of that due to understandably negative perceptions of things domestically.
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(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/H4k2afjL7IlBjdCR0qUTPm5xXiOnXNDxjADIp4ux04ClCOxOLjX091HeIIBmRWx0=w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu)
🐷🐷
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We don't have a society that the world looks up to. That is American Exceptionalism, and it is a lie. We get 2 million immigrants from the South border annually partially because we have had a large hand in destabilizing their countries for decades. They're coming to America not for the American Dream, they're just trying to not get murdered.
You know why we're #1 on the world stage, and probably will be for a long time? We are uninvadeable, have global military power, and control the global shipping lanes. For a long time this was the UK. But they lost their empire. We don't have an empire to lose, but we can implode. Best way to do that is to continue lining the pockets of the super wealthy. The wealth gap in the US increases every year. From 1983 to 2016, the share of aggregate wealth going to upper-income families increased from 60% to 79% Those were the years that millennials were children... your generations hay day. A generation of union destruction, minimum wage stagnation, and globalization are surely to blame, but who put those policies in place?
Super wealthy? You're not it. I'm not it. No one on this board is super wealthy. No one told me that I'd get to be those guys because I'm an American. Hell, I'm not sure how you are misunderstanding my quote. And the super wealthy? We don't need them. Billionaires should not exist. The accumulation of that much wealth is morally deplorable. I'm sure most of these neo-aristocrats could easily thrive below the billionaire line.
Hilarious commentary on the youth of the nation. Your generation is the "GOT MINE, GET BENT" generation. You're passing us down a world that is falling apart after having been privy to the most successful stretch of time globally. Are you guys to blame for everything? Nah, but you're generation has been in charge now for a few decades and again, the results are pretty rough. Furthermore, have you been on Facebook recently? That place is loaded with self-absorbed boomers who can't tell reality from fantasy.
As to your last two points, good for you. That's the story of everyone. We all go through hard times and easy ones, but shouldn't our society do better than we are and take care of the basic needs of it's citizens? We can certainly afford it. Other countries do it and aren't bankrupt. Frankly, I don't whine about not 'getting mine or not having what others have. Life is like that. I just fundamentally believe that our wealth gap in the US is the only reason we fail as a country. Continuing on the path of the last four decades will make this problem worse. I just want everyone else to be able to succeed, and not live in a world where 60% of people are living paycheck to paycheck.
Try to not kick the ladder out from beneath you on your way to the top dg, you've had a lot more advantages on your way up than most.
Lots of ways to be successful in America. Some build it. Some marry into it.
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Hards
The American Dream is alive and well and many newer immigrants are participating in that Dream. Honestly, I think you live a very sheltered life. My kids all went to a very strong private school, three for K-4 - 8th grade and one was a lifer and the school is now made up of over 50% first generation Chinese and Indian immigrants sending their children there. A high percentage came to the USA to follow there dreams and have sacrificed everything to build a foundation for their family. Their commitment and sacrifice is something I admire a great deal.
I can tell you from every ounce of my body that these families are doing the same thing that my grandparents did over a hundred years ago. You can believe the deck is stacked against you, that we are no longer exceptional and any other belief you may have, and I respect that. That said, I know who the sucker at the table is on this conversation.
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Lots of ways to be successful in America. Some build it. Some marry into it.
Some have their dad give it to them
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While I don't agree with some points of your post, its reasonable and not hysterical. However, I'll take a bit of opposition to the start of this paragraph. There was near absolute truth to this a generation or two ago that created American Exceptionalism. But now I feel that this has swung too far over to the other side to a realm of "nobody looks up to the US anymore" which is BS. At least economically.
Ask anyone here who does business internationally, its still a gold standard and aspirational. Doesn't matter if I'm in India or Southeast Asia or even parts of Europe. People still clamor to get here, to start businesses or do business here. I know small business owners in Belgium, France, and Germany that Ive spoken to in the last few years that would uproot their operations to the US if not for family or other ties. And those are the same people that made Trump jokes or are baffled by gun violence here.
Other countries have caught up or become more desirable in comparison, sure. But thats being fit and content to stay. Still very few other countries have the same economic opportunity draw. People lose sight of that due to understandably negative perceptions of things domestically.
Of course economically speaking the US will always be advantageous for companies for the exact reasons I outlined. It is the safest place to do business.
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You know not of what you speak. You have no idea what I have or haven't done with my time, talent and treasure in my life. So to make that kind of an observation is not smart.
Look, the ladder was literally and accidentally knocked out from under me last December when I was getting things from the attic. Damn, it hurt then and I'm still not fully recovered. I may never fully recover from it. I would note that the folks that have been successful know that's true for us and for society as well. You knock the ladder out from those that have been successful and those who made it -- however they did -- and inevitably they fall too. And the consequences are much worse than my badly broken ankle.
Inevitably, if you don't offer opportunity, bad economics fills the void!
You're a white dude from America who is a member of the baby boomer generation and attended a private university. I'm all of those things as well... except I'm an old millennial. I don't have to assume much else to know you have had a ton of advantages. No reason to get upset about it.
Sorry, you got hurt.
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Of course economically speaking the US will always be advantageous for companies for the exact reasons I outlined. It is the safest place to do business.
Which is an element of society that is looked up to and admired. That doesn't mean the US is infallible or perfect. But I know people from countries in Europe that Americans greatly admire, that would love to be in the US. Not all, but plenty. Different people admire/aspire/pursue different things.
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You're a white dude from America who is a member of the baby boomer generation and attended a private university. I'm all of those things as well... except I'm an old millennial. I don't have to assume much else to know you have had a ton of advantages. No reason to get upset about it.
Sorry, you got hurt.
now i'm getting a better picture of why you're so angry and unsuccessful and it's not anyone's fault but your own dude
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now i'm getting a better picture of why you're so angry and unsuccessful and it's not anyone's fault but your own dude
His dad didn't "sell" him his dental business?
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now i'm getting a better picture of why you're so angry and unsuccessful and it's not anyone's fault but your own dude
7 out of 10
We enjoy the projection of your posts but this one is missing the classic elements of a very successful rocket post.
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now i'm getting a better picture of why you're so angry and unsuccessful and it's not anyone's fault but your own dude
LMFAO.
I doubt anyone who has the reading comprehension of a 3rd grader would call me angry. As for unsuccessful, you must have very strange terms for such a word because I assure you I'm very well off.
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Which is an element of society that is looked up to and admired. That doesn't mean the US is infallible or perfect. But I know people from countries in Europe that Americans greatly admire, that would love to be in the US. Not all, but plenty. Different people admire/aspire/pursue different things.
I don't disagree. The example that was given was the Central Americans crossing the border, so I was just addressing that specifically. They're fleeing home and America has a lot to do with the why.
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I have said it many times that when more people leave the USA on a daily basis than risk their lives to be here I will worry about the USA.
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Hards
The American Dream is alive and well and many newer immigrants are participating in that Dream. Honestly, I think you live a very sheltered life. My kids all went to a very strong private school, three for K-4 - 8th grade and one was a lifer and the school is now made up of over 50% first generation Chinese and Indian immigrants sending their children there. A high percentage came to the USA to follow there dreams and have sacrificed everything to build a foundation for their family. Their commitment and sacrifice is something I admire a great deal.
I can tell you from every ounce of my body that these families are doing the same thing that my grandparents did over a hundred years ago. You can believe the deck is stacked against you, that we are no longer exceptional and any other belief you may have, and I respect that. That said, I know who the sucker at the table is on this conversation.
Brother Goose:
You and me both.
I adopted both of my children from a former Soviet Republic. While there is a lot of things my wife and I gave our children, the greatest gift of all was American citizenship. The day I stood and took the oath of citizenship on behalf of my two year olds was one of the best days of my life. When you realize where they came from and what they've accomplished since, you begin to realize what America is about!
This country is truly exceptional.
There are a lot of things my children could do for which I'd support, even though I disagreed with them. But never, ever, ever forget they are are Americans. There comes a responsibility with that to ensure the next generation has the same blessings that you did! That this country is worth protecting and building. I don't see that feeling in a lot of posts in here.
We aren't perfect. That's why our Constitution says, "In order to form a more perfect union..." It acknowledges we always will have work to do. But we are exceptional and the fact is 2.0 million people a year risk their lives to get here speaks for itself. They are not going to Mexico, Brazil or Argentina. They're coming here. People from all over the world are coming here, not because we are perfect but because we try and we strive to be better.
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His dad didn't "sell" him his dental business?
nor "give" it to him, ey sully? but he probably got his uber biness from his daddy
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nor "give" it to him, ey sully? but he probably got his uber biness from his daddy
Sultan is a good example of "idle wealthy," at least based on his time spent online.
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nor "give" it to him, ey sully? but he probably got his uber biness from his daddy
My dad was a teacher.
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dgies
My grandparents moved her from Lithuania and Serbia in the early 1900's and my parents were born in 1921 and 1923 and they sacrificed every single day for their children. I can promise you that those lessons have not been forgotten by this borderline baby boomer. I am the youngest of four children and my siblings are all in their 70's and I saw sacrifice and determination firsthand by watching my parents live their lives.
I was born and raised for ten years on the near west of MKE and we lived in a house with one bathroom and waited in line to take a bath, not a shower. Those ten years shaped my life in ways that future success never matched. For the record, I am very proud of my success and have learned from hard defeats. When I read the stupidity stated about baby boomers in general it makes my blood boil. I 100% agree boomers have made mistakes, but the biggest mistake was to make life too easy for kids. That being said, I take great pride in giving my children a lifetime of private education, one that only came with debt for me.
America is beaten down at the moment, IMO, and our weaknesses are being exposed. But, not for one minute do I believe that it cannot be overcome. My Dad told me a thousand times "never count someone else's money because you have no idea what they have" and it is advice that has stayed in my mind for 50 years. Guys on here will make blanket statements about a generation like they actually know something.
For the record, I wish I was I coming the Thanksgiving tourney and have a chance to meet you. I know some guys on here personally and their stories do not match the narrative spewed on scoop. I appreciate your candid posts and lets plan on meeting at the Final Four some day to cheer on our Marquette Warriors or you can come to Meat Summit. Had to mention the Meat Summit to give the "guys" ammo to bash my post.
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Sultan is a good example of "idle wealthy," at least based on his time spent online.
someone's daddy had to give him his job, but living on our money allows one more "me" time than most. isn't it mandated?
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This country is truly exceptional.
Both sides of this have completely bastardized what was originally meant by American Exceptionalism.
Hint: It doesn't mean we're better than any other country.
There comes a responsibility with that to ensure the next generation has the same blessings that you did!
Welp, the Boomers kinda screwed the pooch on this one.
That this country is worth protecting and building. I don't see that feeling in a lot of posts in here.
Oh, stop. Not only is criticizing America patriotic, it's necessary. All of the great movements in American history - from the revolution, to abolition, to the fights for labor rights, women's suffrage and civil rights - were led by people who were strongly and outspokenly critical of the country and the status quo.
The notion that people ought to suck on the teet of America is dangerous and antithetical to what makes the country great.
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Pakuni
"Screwed the Pooch"...I am sorry if that is how your life has panned out, but I have four kids that would disagree with you. They have seen family sacrifice firsthand that enabled them a great foundation in life. My kids WILL have a better life and if it means I work until I am 90 that is life. You throw out generalizations and woe is me on a regular basis. There are plenty of weekend and night jobs you could take to make your life better. I can tell you that I am not above taking a second job at age 59 if it is needed. You get out of life what you put into it.
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Pakuni
"Screwed the Pooch"...I am sorry if that is how your life has panned out, but I have four kids that would disagree with you. They have seen family sacrifice firsthand that enabled them a great foundation in life. My kids WILL have a better life and if it means I work until I am 90 that is life. You throw out generalizations and woe is me on a regular basis. There are plenty of weekend and night jobs you could take to make your life better. I can tell you that I am not above taking a second job at age 59 if it is needed. You get out of life what you put into it.
Goose,
Respectfully, go squat a rusty fence post. While you have a well-established record of posting make believe nonsense here (see: imaginary criticism after the Buffalo game, and Marquette wants to be like St. Louis) I suspect you'd be unable to find a single "woe is me" post I've made here.
I'm doing fine financially, thanks for your concern. I'm just not one of those people who need to seek validation on an internet message board.
Unfortunately, the same can't be said of subsequent generations, who thanks to Boomer greed and incompetence are staring down a less promising future.
https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-highest-earning-generation-less-wealthy-boomers-2021-9
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Pakuni
I have zero concern for you financially. That said, I truly hope you have a happy and successful life. I would say your "screw the pooch" line was a woe is me statement. For the record, I have no interest in validation of my life via a message board. I try to offer my honest opinions and they may be right or wrong, but they are my opinions. Again, if you are facing a less promising future do something about it.
To be honest, I really do not care what anyone on here thinks about me or my posts and I would hope everyone feels that way. We are discussing topics, sometime sensitive, and we have a right to say our thoughts.
As for my well-established history of nonsense, that is your opinion. I post on a regular basis and surely have said nonsense, possibly more than the average poster. I respect your opinion to dismiss every word I post on here and would expect the same respect in return.
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Goose,
Respectfully, go squat a rusty fence post. While you have a well-established record of posting make believe nonsense here (see: imaginary criticism after the Buffalo game, and Marquette wants to be like St. Louis) I suspect you'd be unable to find a single "woe is me" post I've made here.
I'm doing fine financially, thanks for your concern. I'm just not one of those people who need to seek validation on an internet message board.
Unfortunately, the same can't be said of subsequent generations, who thanks to Boomer greed and incompetence are staring down a less promising future.
https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-highest-earning-generation-less-wealthy-boomers-2021-9
You should switch to beer at this point. Or maybe water, just to be safe and avoid a nasty hangover.
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LMFAO.
I doubt anyone who has the reading comprehension of a 3rd grader would call me angry. As for unsuccessful, you must have very strange terms for such a word because I assure you I'm very well off.
Then you should pay your employees more. Share the wealth, bigwig. Jesmu would agree with me.
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Hards
A wise man once told me that if you think you have a lot of money, double it. Sound advise from a crazy boomer I had the privilege of learning a great deal from in a past life.
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What would Jesus charge for loaves and fishes?
Nothing, they were included in the concert’s ticket price.
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someone's daddy had to give him his job, but living on our money allows one more "me" time than most. isn't it mandated?
4 out of 10
People expect unhinged grammar, spelling and general crazy uncle posts when they read your stuff. Please up your game
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I would say your "screw the pooch" line was a woe is me statement.
Disagree. It was a general statement that Gen X, Millennials, and Zoomers are worse situated on the whole than Boomers were. That doesn't speak to individual circumstance at all, and personal examples are also irrelevant in response because his comment was about society generationally as a whole.
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Disagree. It was a general statement that Gen X, Millennials, and Zoomers are worse situated on the whole than Boomers were. That doesn't speak to individual circumstance at all, and personal examples are also irrelevant in response because his comment was about society generationally as a whole.
Here's an article showing that it's not as bad for the new generation as some people make it out to be:
https://ofdollarsanddata.com/no-millennials-arent-poorer-than-previous-generations/ (https://ofdollarsanddata.com/no-millennials-arent-poorer-than-previous-generations/)
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Brother Goose:
You and me both.
I adopted both of my children from a former Soviet Republic. While there is a lot of things my wife and I gave our children, the greatest gift of all was American citizenship. The day I stood and took the oath of citizenship on behalf of my two year olds was one of the best days of my life. When you realize where they came from and what they've accomplished since, you begin to realize what America is about!
This country is truly exceptional.
There are a lot of things my children could do for which I'd support, even though I disagreed with them. But never, ever, ever forget they are are Americans. There comes a responsibility with that to ensure the next generation has the same blessings that you did! That this country is worth protecting and building. I don't see that feeling in a lot of posts in here.
We aren't perfect. That's why our Constitution says, "In order to form a more perfect union..." It acknowledges we always will have work to do. But we are exceptional and the fact is 2.0 million people a year risk their lives to get here speaks for itself. They are not going to Mexico, Brazil or Argentina. They're coming here. People from all over the world are coming here, not because we are perfect but because we try and we strive to be better.
Write on DG. Sad that the woke folk can't see the light and appreciate what they have. Instead they're hell bent on shredding this country into confetti, erasing history, and concentrating on a revolutionary agenda, hey?
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Write on DG. Sad that the woke folk can't see the light and appreciate what they have. Instead they're hell bent on shredding this country into confetti, erasing history, and concentrating on a revolutionary agenda, hey?
“Woke folk”
😂😂😂😂
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Write on DG. Sad that the woke folk can't see the light and appreciate what they have. Instead they're hell bent on shredding this country into confetti, erasing history, and concentrating on a revolutionary agenda, hey?
Someone’s been watching too many Ron Johnson commercials.
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Someone’s been watching too many Ron Johnson commercials.
Last revolution attempt I saw put a lot of people in jail, aina?
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Instead they're hell bent on shredding this country into confetti, erasing history, and concentrating on a revolutionary agenda, hey?
Says a guy who cheered on: an attempt to shred the Constitution into confetti; an illegal scheme to erase millions of votes; and the cop-bashing, seditionist "revolution" at the U.S. Capitol.
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Goose,
With benefit of reflection, my response to you last night was unnecessarily unkind. My apologies for that.
As for Ziggy, I'd gladly tell him to squat on a rusty fence post, but I imagine he already enjoys that regularly.
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I had nothing when I started , was flat broke and homeless at one point . Got a job unloading trucks (the Banana loads paid extra )
Went to community college at night . Earned enough coin to enroll in a top level State University . Busted my ass and got top grades and made it into a top Private Grad School
Some one from Wall Street took a chance on me even though I was a minority and had no pedigree . Made the most of it . Worked 7 days a week 12-16 hours a day. Made a lot of contacts . Saved my bonuses and invested them .
Decided to go to Main Street so I could control my time more and be able to be involved in my kids athletic careers .
Put my life savings up to build a decent sized company. We try to develop our employees careers and care about their families . We have collegial win win relationships with our customers and vendors .
I have found this country is truly the land of opportunity for those who want to work diligently and honestly .
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I had nothing when I started , was flat broke and homeless at one point . Got a job unloading trucks (the Banana loads paid extra )
Went to community college at night . Earned enough coin to enroll in a top level State University . Busted my ass and got top grades and made it into a top Private Grad School
Some one from Wall Street took a chance on me even though I was a minority and had no pedigree . Made the most of it . Worked 7 days a week 12-16 hours a day. Made a lot of contacts . Saved my bonuses and invested them .
Decided to go to Main Street so I could control my time more and be able to be involved in my kids athletic careers .
Put my life savings up to build a decent sized company. We try to develop our employees careers and care about their families . We have collegial win win relationships with our customers and vendors .
I have found this country is truly the land of opportunity for those who want to work diligently and honestly .
💪💪💪
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The United States is a great country. I love living here. Wouldn't want to be anywhere else.
I don't want to tear it down or to fundamentally change it. I just want it to be better - to move closer to the ideal that it aspires to.
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Then, vote according, hey?
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Herman
Outstanding post and thanks for sharing. That post should shut the door on this topic, but sadly, I am sure someone will find fault in your life story.
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Herman
Outstanding post and thanks for sharing. That post should shut the door on this topic, but sadly, I am sure someone will find fault in your life story.
It’s a great story. It’s one of many stories. Lots of stories out there. Good and bad
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Herman
Outstanding post and thanks for sharing. That post should shut the door on this topic, but sadly, I am sure someone will find fault in your life story.
I congratulate Herman on the life he has made for himself, Goose, and I find absolutely no fault with his life story. I love success stories. But why should it "shut the door"?
As Rico said, there are lots of great stories about people overcoming adversity to achieve success ... and lots of very sad stories about people denied the chance to do so for any number of reasons -- people who weren't able to say what Herman did: "Some one from Wall Street took a chance on me even though I was a minority and had no pedigree."
For every story like Herman's, there are hundreds (probably thousands, actually) of stories about minorities with no pedigree who haven't been as fortunate because of the color of their skin or their upbringing or their life circumstances.
Yes, people can and do "pull themselves up by the bootstraps" and succeed. Happens every day, and those stories, like Herman's, are always are inspiring. Unfortunately, also happening every day -- and much more often -- are good, hard-working people who, through absolutely no fault of their own, never get a shot at the brass ring and never will.
The single mother of two doesn't have time or energy after working 3 jobs and caring for her kids to go to school and find a benefactor -- even though she "busts her ass" just as much (if not more) than Herman did. It's more than a little insulting to suggest she simply didn't work hard enough (and I'm not saying you suggested that).
Life's not fair, and I'm not proposing a solution because I don't have one. But let's not pretend that the ability of some guy from Scoop to succeed (after getting a big assist from "some one on Wall Street") means that should "shut the door" on the issues involving people who aren't as lucky.
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That didn’t take long.
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Maybe Hermie wasn't clubbin' 5 nites/week, hey?
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Maybe Hermie wasn't clubbin' 5 nites/week, hey?
So, he’s not a dentist?
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Yes, people can and do "pull themselves up by the bootstraps" and succeed.
The irony is that phrase originally meant a task was impossible to do. "You may as well try to pull yourself up by your bootstraps" which as any idiot who tried to pick themselves up off the ground by tugging on their shoes learns isn't something that is allowed by the laws of physics. Yet we've turned it into a motivational phrase as though it's a viable option to do the impossible.
No one has ever pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, and no one ever will.
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The irony is that phrase originally meant a task was impossible to do. "You may as well try to pull yourself up by your bootstraps" which as any idiot who tried to pick themselves up off the ground by tugging on their shoes learns isn't something that is allowed by the laws of physics. Yet we've turned it into a motivational phrase as though it's a viable option to do the impossible.
No one has ever pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, and no one ever will.
Yes. I put it in quotes.
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Would like to leave everybody with a few thoughts on wealth and on generations:
1) The intergenerational bickering in this room isn't new. We Boomers faced the same anger from our parents in the 1960s and 1970s. Especially when we grew our hair long, listened to rock-and-roll music (which everybody "knew" led to drug addiction and unlimited sex) and generally refused to trust anyone over 30. We were the best educated, best prepared generation ever. All we lacked was life experience, which came in time. All we wanted was the old farts to get out of the way and let us change the world. Eventually, they did. Most of our parents and elders have since died or are dying and we miss them! We truly do.
2) For those of you who think our generation gave nothing and left the world a mess, I'd hope you rethink your perspective. In 1962, my father hired a black professional for his office. One of his engineers came to him and reminded him that he was "in the south and we don't do that..." My Dad had to tell the young man that either he lives with it or he just resigned. That doesn't happen any more. Through the from the 1960s onward, it was Boomers who were on the front lines of the civil rights movement. It was our generation who passed the laws that created set-aides for folks that had been discriminated against. It was our generation who passed the laws and set policies that did our best to make sure we hired, retained and promoted African-Americans. We did our best to create affirmative action. "We" are all of us, not just one party or one segment of the population.
It's an amazing thing to imagine than in 50 years, we went from not allowing our African-American brothers and sisters to live, eat and even worship with us to electing an African-American President.
Again, using 1962 as an example, for most American women, the promise of a professional career in anything other than teaching and nursing was a fairy tail. By the 1970s, women were entering the professional workforce and by the 2000s, we began to see results. In 1980s, the notion of a woman CEO of a Fortune 1000 corporation was a pipedream. By 2020, it happened! In 2022, a woman is CEO of the most iconic American corporation -- General Motors. This didn't just happen. Many boomer women in the 1980s and 1990s put up with an awful lot to blaze a trail so that our daughters and grand-daughters would have comparable opportunities to our sons and grandsons.
Look, we didn't do everything we should. Even Lyndon Johnson acknowledged that 10 days before he died when he discussed his role in the civil rights revolution. But, in every phase of American life, we made a huge difference and it's up to the next generation to carry it forward. Look, Brother MU is right that there's a lot of people left behind and the next generation has to deal with that. But what our country gives is opportunity and my fear is addiction to government transfer payments and willingness in too many cases not to push ones self is a prescription for continuing problems. Like Brother MU, I don't know the answer but maybe our next generation does!
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I agree with your sentiments Dgies but just a couple nits to pick.
Would like to leave everybody with a few thoughts on wealth and on generations:
1) The intergenerational bickering in this room isn't new. We Boomers faced the same anger from our parents in the 1960s and 1970s. Especially when we grew our hair long, listened to rock-and-roll music (which everybody "knew" led to drug addiction and unlimited sex) and generally refused to trust anyone over 30. We were the best educated, best prepared generation ever. All we lacked was life experience, which came in time. All we wanted was the old farts to get out of the way and let us change the world. Eventually, they did. Most of our parents and elders have since died or are dying and we miss them! We truly do.
You're not wrong that boomers faced this when they were our age but it was on a different scale. When Boomers were the same age as millennials are now, they controlled 21% of the wealth in this country. Today, millennials control 5% of the wealth in the US. You wanted the old farts to get out of the way so you could change the world. Millennials need them to get out of the way just so they can do basic things like buy a house. Over the next 30 years or so we are going to see the largest generational transition of wealth in the history of the world. It's going to be fascinating to see how it plays out.
2) For those of you who think our generation gave nothing and left the world a mess, I'd hope you rethink your perspective. In 1962, my father hired a black professional for his office. One of his engineers came to him and reminded him that he was "in the south and we don't do that..." My Dad had to tell the young man that either he lives with it or he just resigned. That doesn't happen any more. Through the from the 1960s onward, it was Boomers who were on the front lines of the civil rights movement. It was our generation who passed the laws that created set-aides for folks that had been discriminated against. It was our generation who passed the laws and set policies that did our best to make sure we hired, retained and promoted African-Americans. We did our best to create affirmative action. "We" are all of us, not just one party or one segment of the population.
Actually it was the generation above boomers that were the ones that passed the most important pieces of legislation. The Civil Rights Act was signed in 1964. Boomers were born between 1946 and 1964, meaning that at the time the law was passed only the very oldest boomers could vote. That's not to diminish what your generation has done because you have been on the forefront of other movements such as legalizing interracial marriage, just adding context. I'll add that this does somewhat add to my generation's frustration with boomers because there was a time when you were on the front lines, but now many boomers are on the front lines again except they've crossed to the other side and are fighting against further progress on civil rights.
In general, I do agree that a lot of my generation makes the mistake of demonizing all boomers and ignoring the many positive contributions that they have made to the US. But it doesn't help when so many refuse to acknowledge the mistakes of the older generations the impact that it is having on the future generations. Yes a lot are willing to make vague statements of "we weren't perfect" and "we didn't do everything you should" but if something specific gets brought up it's usually meant with dismissiveness and defensiveness.
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if something specific gets brought up it's usually meant with dismissiveness and defensiveness.
This hate-filled attack is not even worth a response.
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I agree with your sentiments Dgies but just a couple nits to pick.
You're not wrong that boomers faced this when they were our age but it was on a different scale. When Boomers were the same age as millennials are now, they controlled 21% of the wealth in this country. Today, millennials control 5% of the wealth in the US. You wanted the old farts to get out of the way so you could change the world. Millennials need them to get out of the way just so they can do basic things like buy a house. Over the next 30 years or so we are going to see the largest generational transition of wealth in the history of the world. It's going to be fascinating to see how it plays out.
Actually it was the generation above boomers that were the ones that passed the most important pieces of legislation. The Civil Rights Act was signed in 1964. Boomers were born between 1946 and 1964, meaning that at the time the law was passed only the very oldest boomers could vote. That's not to diminish what your generation has done because you have been on the forefront of other movements such as legalizing interracial marriage, just adding context.
Good post, TAMU, but just to pick a nit ...
The Loving decision that legalized interracial marriage was decided in 1967 by the Warren Court, none of whom were Boomers. And the couple who brought the case, i.e. the Lovings, were part of the Silent Generation, both born during the 1930s.
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Good post, TAMU, but just to pick a nit ...
The Loving decision that legalized interracial marriage was decided in 1967 by the Warren Court, none of whom were Boomers. And the couple who brought the case, i.e. the Lovings, were part of the Silent Generation, both born during the 1930s.
And you are correct. I remembered that it happened after the Civil Rights Acts were passed. I thought it was longer than 3 years.
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TAMU
One comment on the % of wealth being far lower today for younger generations, I 100% believe that younger generations live a far different lifestyle than boomers did at the same age. IMO, the boomer generation may have some advantages, but I thiink our lifestyles were far less expensive. I do think the added expenditures in today's world makes it harder to save for young people. That being said, younger folks could spend less or add a side hustle to cover some of I feel is fringe costs.
Quick example of what I am talking about that relates to scoop, back in the day there were not many boomers (many with kids) that were planning Ft. Myers basketball or BE tournaments into their annual budget. Of course, there were fans that traveled (my family) did, but we were in the minority. I went to Catholic grade school in MKE and everyone was a MU fan in the 1970's and my friends were shocked and jealous of my going on road trips.
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TAMU
One comment on the % of wealth being far lower today for younger generations, I 100% believe that younger generations live a far different lifestyle than boomers did at the same age. IMO, the boomer generation may have some advantages, but I thiink our lifestyles were far less expensive. I do think the added expenditures in today's world makes it harder to save for young people. That being said, younger folks could spend less or add a side hustle to cover some of I feel is fringe costs.
Quick example of what I am talking about that relates to scoop, back in the day there were not many boomers (many with kids) that were planning Ft. Myers basketball or BE tournaments into their annual budget. Of course, there were fans that traveled (my family) did, but we were in the minority. I went to Catholic grade school in MKE and everyone was a MU fan in the 1970's and my friends were shocked and jealous of my going on road trips.
Goose you are right but I think you are being disingenuous with how much of that wealth gap is because of frivolous purchases. There are real examples such as phone costs. Boomers didn't have to worry about paying for cell phones, data, etc and they are a practical necessity in today's day and age. I think there are very few millennials who are going on frivolous road trips enough to significantly impact their savings. Most are living paycheck to paycheck as you pointed out earlier. I've been to plenty of those Thanksgiving MU tournaments (thanks to the generosity of my boomer father and gen x mother). I honestly can't recall a time where I saw a group of millennials there by themselves. Those crowds are at least 90% Gen X or older and the remaining 10% are mostly children of the 90%.
This would be an example of that dismissiveness I mentioned in my last post.
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TAMU
One comment on the % of wealth being far lower today for younger generations, I 100% believe that younger generations live a far different lifestyle than boomers did at the same age. IMO, the boomer generation may have some advantages, but I thiink our lifestyles were far less expensive. I do think the added expenditures in today's world makes it harder to save for young people. That being said, younger folks could spend less or add a side hustle to cover some of I feel is fringe costs.
Quick example of what I am talking about that relates to scoop, back in the day there were not many boomers (many with kids) that were planning Ft. Myers basketball or BE tournaments into their annual budget. Of course, there were fans that traveled (my family) did, but we were in the minority. I went to Catholic grade school in MKE and everyone was a MU fan in the 1970's and my friends were shocked and jealous of my going on road trips.
Isn't it a given that every previous generation's lifestyle is less expensive? And advocating millennials to pick up a side hustle to cover fringe costs kind of proves the point that millennials are worse off than boomers.
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I agree with your sentiments Dgies but just a couple nits to pick.
Actually it was the generation above boomers that were the ones that passed the most important pieces of legislation. The Civil Rights Act was signed in 1964. Boomers were born between 1946 and 1964, meaning that at the time the law was passed only the very oldest boomers could vote. That's not to diminish what your generation has done because you have been on the forefront of other movements such as legalizing interracial marriage, just adding context. I'll add that this does somewhat add to my generation's frustration with boomers because there was a time when you were on the front lines, but now many boomers are on the front lines again except they've crossed to the other side and are fighting against further progress on civil rights.
In general, I do agree that a lot of my generation makes the mistake of demonizing all boomers and ignoring the many positive contributions that they have made to the US. But it doesn't help when so many refuse to acknowledge the mistakes of the older generations the impact that it is having on the future generations. Yes a lot are willing to make vague statements of "we weren't perfect" and "we didn't do everything you should" but if something specific gets brought up it's usually meant with dismissiveness and defensiveness.
Those demonstrators that marched from Selma to Montgomery included a lot of young, 18- to 20-year-old boomers. As did the Mississippi Freedom Summer. The legislation that's passed since -- including affirmative action, anti-discrimination provisions, anti-harassment etc., all is Boomer-based.
Goose you are right but I think you are being disingenuous with how much of that wealth gap is because of frivolous purchases. There are real examples such as phone costs. Boomers didn't have to worry about paying for cell phones, data, etc and they are a practical necessity in today's day and age.
In our day, we had land lines and long distance was paid for. My God was it expensive -- probably far more so on a present value basis than what we pay for cell phones. And, we got a lot less!
Lots of things are indeed cheaper. The aforementioned holiday tournaments are less expensive because President Carter pushed to deregulate transportation. The aforementioned phone service changes were possible because of deregulated phone service. Take artificial barriers out of the equation and costs often go down!
Brother TAMU, let me leave it at this -- sure we know there is too much poverty and too much suffering in this country. We also know we aren't perfect. There's going to be work to be done. Keep in mind that your generation will inevitably get our wealth -- heck, we can't take it with us -- and it's fine to see how society will change as your generation gets it.
I'll be up in heaven watching how you guys and gals deal with your children and grandchildren when they come of age.
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Lazer
Like my post stated, most boomers had a lot less fringe expenses and no need for a side hustle. I believe that there are too many fringe expenses for everyone in the USA in 2022. For the record, my wife was a school teacher for many years and often tutored to make extra money to cover the cost of our kids in travel sports. Another expense that I believe that has gone beyond crazy.
One a side bar, I recently played golf with a fellow boomer, who has had a successful career, and he was playing with twenty-year-old clubs and we were paired with two guys in their 30's ho both had over $2k of clubs in their bags. I believe my buddy could likely afford a similar set of clubs, but he felt the cost of new clubs was insane and said he still likes his sticks (which was a lie).
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Those demonstrators that marched from Selma to Montgomery included a lot of young, 18- to 20-year-old boomers. As did the Mississippi Freedom Summer. The legislation that's passed since -- including affirmative action, anti-discrimination provisions, anti-harassment etc., all is Boomer-based.
Actually Dgies, affirmative action was 1965, so again, the generation above yours (boomers were 1-19 years old at the time). Anti-discrimination and anti-harassments was 1964 with additions being added through 1972. So again, mostly the generation above yours (Boomers were 0-18 in 1964 and 9-27 years old by 1972). Again, there were other things that Boomers led the charge on later so I'm not trying to diminish, just get the facts right. The pregnancy discriminations act, ADA, and FMLA are all great examples of boomer led civil rights legislation.
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Actually Dgies, affirmative action was 1965, so again, the generation above yours (boomers were 1-19 years old at the time). Anti-discrimination and anti-harassments was 1964 with additions being added through 1972. So again, mostly the generation above yours (Boomers were 0-18 in 1964 and 9-27 years old by 1972). Again, there were other things that Boomers led the charge on later so I'm not trying to diminish, just get the facts right. The pregnancy discriminations act, ADA, and FMLA are all great examples of boomer led civil rights legislation.
The leading edge of our generation was marching (18) and to your point, others passed the laws but it was our generation that interpreted and enforced them. To your point, we also expanded them.
Ultimately, history will judge us and I believe quite favorably.
Watch you Millennials' children become Reagan-type Conservatives! It's possible LOL!
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Lazer
Like my post stated, most boomers had a lot less fringe expenses and no need for a side hustle. I believe that there are too many fringe expenses for everyone in the USA in 2022. For the record, my wife was a school teacher for many years and often tutored to make extra money to cover the cost of our kids in travel sports. Another expense that I believe that has gone beyond crazy.
One a side bar, I recently played golf with a fellow boomer, who has had a successful career, and he was playing with twenty-year-old clubs and we were paired with two guys in their 30's ho both had over $2k of clubs in their bags. I believe my buddy could likely afford a similar set of clubs, but he felt the cost of new clubs was insane and said he still likes his sticks (which was a lie).
I’m sure there’s a lot of anecdotal examples of millennials spending on some nice things or things a different generation. Also, there’s a lot of millennials with generous parents that help set them up in a good spot. I see friends or neighbors that belong to a country club or drive nice cars. Although, I’d say I’m exposed to a pretty narrow subset of the population.
I don’t think those anecdotes mean that on the whole a generation is in a better spot. Just looking at the stats on the cost for a house or college compared to salaries 30 years ago show that some things that were available to boomers may not be as easily attainable to the current generation, and not just due to spending habits.
I don’t think saying kids these days just need to get a side hustle or cut down on the Starbucks and avocado toast if they want to own a home is seeing the situation for what it is.
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cheebs
I understand your point and do not disagree. Only saying that since I became a parent in 1987, I cannot believe the added fringe costs we all face today. I'm simply saying that many people (myself included) spend differently that when boomers were a similar age. For the record, I do not think the sub 40 crowd is in a better spot, and would not argue, things are tougher today. Though, I do think fringe spending does not help the situation.
Truthfully, I have no idea how many people stay afloat on a monthly basis. I just checked my card balance and was floored on what I spent this weekend. I am trying to cut back big time and this weekend was not a cut back weekend, and we did not do or buy anything crazy.
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I’m sure there’s a lot of anecdotal examples of millennials spending on some nice things or things a different generation. Also, there’s a lot of millennials with generous parents that help set them up in a good spot. I see friends or neighbors that belong to a country club or drive nice cars. Although, I’d say I’m exposed to a pretty narrow subset of the population.
I don’t think those anecdotes mean that on the whole a generation is in a better spot. Just looking at the stats on the cost for a house or college compared to salaries 30 years ago show that some things that were available to boomers may not be as easily attainable to the current generation, and not just due to spending habits.
I don’t think saying kids these days just need to get a side hustle or cut down on the Starbucks and avocado toast if they want to own a home is seeing the situation for what it is.
I think its a combination. And I don't even think it needs to be vilifying millennials. The overall timeline of life (kids, home purchases, etc...) has shifted noticeably from previous generations and that leads to different money behaviors, IMO.
My parents generation (born in the 50s-60s) started looking to home ownership right away. My dad bought a place immediately after graduating college when he moved to the city of his first job. Thats a rarity, from my experience, these days, regardless of cost. I graduated almost 15 years ago and you could easily find $250K houses/condos that were totally affordable on a $60K salary and I knew very very few people who were even considering it before their late 20s. Coupled with delaying starting families (which often leads to a money tightening/saving behavior modification) and it starts to shift things.
Which then segues into travel. Sure air travel isn't as comparatively expensive as it was 50-60-70 years ago, but attitudes towards travel have changed greatly. Trips to Europe and Asia were once in a lifetime, wild jaunts even 20-30 years ago. Now even "non-wealthy" younger people do it multiple times in their 20s/30s. Even with kids. My friends went to London and France with their 2 year old a couple months ago. They doing decently well but wouldn't be considered affluent by any stretch of the imagination. The thought of that even when I was a kid in the 90s seems crazy. My parents took my younger sister and I to Germany in 1992, to visit my Aunt and Uncle who lived on a military base there. I remember even then, in a very nice suburb, people thinking it was super abnormal.
Housing inflation and costs have gotten crazy. Wages have lagged inflation. And a variety of other factors that contributed to accumulated wealth of millennials trailing their comparison sets from previous generations. But I agree with others that very real changes in saving, spending, and how money/purchasing/etc... is viewed has a pronounced impact as well. And its not just some Dave Ramsey "these damn kids buy too many iPhones and have too much brunch" sort of thing.
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Goose you are right but I think you are being disingenuous with how much of that wealth gap is because of frivolous purchases. There are real examples such as phone costs. Boomers didn't have to worry about paying for cell phones, data, etc and they are a practical necessity in today's day and age. I think there are very few millennials who are going on frivolous road trips enough to significantly impact their savings. Most are living paycheck to paycheck as you pointed out earlier. I've been to plenty of those Thanksgiving MU tournaments (thanks to the generosity of my boomer father and gen x mother). I honestly can't recall a time where I saw a group of millennials there by themselves. Those crowds are at least 90% Gen X or older and the remaining 10% are mostly children of the 90%.
This would be an example of that dismissiveness I mentioned in my last post.
Just stay on the Family Plan and da old cell phone bill disappears ta nothin', aina?
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I think its a combination. And I don't even think it needs to be vilifying millennials. The overall timeline of life (kids, home purchases, etc...) has shifted noticeably from previous generations and that leads to different money behaviors, IMO.
My parents generation (born in the 50s-60s) started looking to home ownership right away. My dad bought a place immediately after graduating college when he moved to the city of his first job. Thats a rarity, from my experience, these days, regardless of cost. I graduated almost 15 years ago and you could easily find $250K houses/condos that were totally affordable on a $60K salary and I knew very very few people who were even considering it before their late 20s. Coupled with delaying starting families (which often leads to a money tightening/saving behavior modification) and it starts to shift things.
Which then segues into travel. Sure air travel isn't as comparatively expensive as it was 50-60-70 years ago, but attitudes towards travel have changed greatly. Trips to Europe and Asia were once in a lifetime, wild jaunts even 20-30 years ago. Now even "non-wealthy" younger people do it multiple times in their 20s/30s. Even with kids. My friends went to London and France with their 2 year old a couple months ago. They doing decently well but wouldn't be considered affluent by any stretch of the imagination. The thought of that even when I was a kid in the 90s seems crazy. My parents took my younger sister and I to Germany in 1992, to visit my Aunt and Uncle who lived on a military base there. I remember even then, in a very nice suburb, people thinking it was super abnormal.
Housing inflation and costs have gotten crazy. Wages have lagged inflation. And a variety of other factors that contributed to accumulated wealth of millennials trailing their comparison sets from previous generations. But I agree with others that very real changes in saving, spending, and how money/purchasing/etc... is viewed has a pronounced impact as well. And its not just some Dave Ramsey "these damn kids buy too many iPhones and have too much brunch" sort of thing.
I don't think you were attempting to say this but to clarify, the correct wording here is "Now a vast minority of "non-wealthy" younger people do it multiple times in their 20s/30s whearas it was an even vaster minority when I was a kid in the 90s".
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TAMU
I stated the MU travel to home games because this is a MU basketball site. I will add again the cost of kids sports today vs. back when I was kid. There are folks on here that can give accurate info for the cost today, but when I had three kids in travel sports the annual bill was well above $15k a year. Do that for a few years and buying a house becomes real difficult.
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Might have something to do with this.
(https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/106968880-1635799559954-College_costs_vs_Earnings.jpg?v=1635799656&ffmt=webp)
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Not for Paul Chryst. Dude gets chit-canned and likely will float down the river sippin' Mai Tais for da rest of his daze. Wear due ya get a gig like dat, hey?
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Pakuni
If someone paid for their own college education, I agree that causes a major issue. I felt it was my responsibility to pay for our children to get an education and it did not cost them a dime. So, the cost of college should not weigh into their ability to save or buy a home.
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Pakuni
If someone paid for their own college education, I agree that causes a major issue. I felt it was my responsibility to pay for our children to get an education and it did not cost them a dime. So, the cost of college should not weigh into their ability to save or buy a home.
Of course, but how many parents pay for all of it? According to Sofi, about 85% of parents pay for some college expenses, meaning 15% pay nothing. I couldn't find any data that specified how much of those 85% pay 100%, my guess is the majority do not. That 85% also counts parent plus loans as a parent making a payment. However in my wife's case, her parents took out parent plus loans but told her that she would be responsible for making all of the payments and she has made good on that promise until COVID put the loan in deferment.
There's also the reality that the increasing cost of college defers people from even attempting to get a college education, which is significant barrier when trying to accumulate wealth.
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TAMU
I have no idea how may kids leave college debt free and never paying a dime to get an education. If your numbers are correct, and I believe you, then I am bigger sucker or nicer guy than I thought was for all of these years. For the record, I agree 100000% that anyone leaving college with debt is backed into a corner and it is difficult to get out. I will say the numbers you noted surprised me, but maybe it explains why it did not seem like a lot of my friends were as anxious about writing tuition checks when their kids were in college. That was a very stressful time in my life.
I told Hards he was the sucker at the table in this conversation and it now appears I am the sucker in this conversation. That said, I do not think I could have spent the money in a better way.
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Pakuni
If someone paid for their own college education, I agree that causes a major issue. I felt it was my responsibility to pay for our children to get an education and it did not cost them a dime. So, the cost of college should not weigh into their ability to save or buy a home.
Your kids are very fortunate, and in the minority.
According to this, 64 percent of undergraduates leave college in debt, and the average debt is nearly $30,000.
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/see-how-student-loan-borrowing-has-changed
And those who go on to get a graduate degree leave with another $70,000 debt, on average.
https://www.bankrate.com/loans/student-loans/average-graduate-school-debt/
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Pakuni
I stand somewhat corrected on my posts on this thread. I truly had no idea that was the case. Not afraid to admit I spoke without knowing all of the facts. There is no way in hell my three boys could have bought houses or a condo if they were $30k in debt. Now it is my time to reload the bank account.
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I’m sure there’s a lot of anecdotal examples of millennials spending on some nice things or things a different generation. Also, there’s a lot of millennials with generous parents that help set them up in a good spot. I see friends or neighbors that belong to a country club or drive nice cars. Although, I’d say I’m exposed to a pretty narrow subset of the population.
I don’t think those anecdotes mean that on the whole a generation is in a better spot. Just looking at the stats on the cost for a house or college compared to salaries 30 years ago show that some things that were available to boomers may not be as easily attainable to the current generation, and not just due to spending habits.
I don’t think saying kids these days just need to get a side hustle or cut down on the Starbucks and avocado toast if they want to own a home is seeing the situation for what it is.
Thanks for bringing in this perspective.
As a Boomer who also is a dad to two Millennials, I'm seeing a lot of generalizations being made in this thread.
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According to this, 64 percent of undergraduates leave college in debt, and the average debt is nearly $30,000.
/cue gen-x rant
Heck, in 1997 I left MU with about $25k in debt, so I'm not seeing the big deal with $30k now. I paid mine off in about 4 years (and starting salaries are higher now), and don't feel like it held me back much at all.
/rant
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Boomers boomin’ in here.
Of course they have their personal quips and perspectives from the country club. And because they saw a golf bag full of whatever chunky-ass game improvement clubs TaylorMade is offering now, that’s all that matters. Millennials spend stupidly.
I would have loved to be able to afford a brand new Chevelle SS in ‘67 working on a grocery baggers salary.
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/cue gen-x rant
Heck, in 1997 I left MU with about $25k in debt, so I'm not seeing the big deal with $30k now. I paid mine off in about 4 years (and starting salaries are higher now), and don't feel like it held me back much at all.
/rant
Similar thoughts. 97… although I only had $15k, but I paid a lot of cash generated from starting working in 8th grade and my internship (semester long - also helped bc I only had a full semester of tuition for 7 semesters)
But, I considered how the loan would help me, my career goals & expectations and whether I was willing to take on the risk. The idea most kids are unfairly tricked into loans and stupid majors sounds off to me.
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Rocky and JayBee
Job well done. I admire what you accomplished equally to my loving Herman’s story.
Retire
As I stated, I think many people, myself included, do not always make great decisions on spending. I think you missed my point, but such is life.
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Rocky and JayBee
Job well done. I admire what you accomplished equally to my loving Herman’s story.
Retire
As I stated, I think many people, myself included, do not always make great decisions on spending. I think you missed my point, but such is life.
I got your point, my message wasn’t really directed at you, but I also really wanted to make fun of bad looking golf clubs.
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Hards
A wise man once told me that if you think you have a lot of money, double it. Sound advise from a crazy boomer I had the privilege of learning a great deal from in a past life.
Hold on, it's sound advice to have double the money you have? My mind is blown!
The point is that your buddy, rocket here is slinging mud. I think it's fine for me to stick up for myself. You should probably help your friend and his mental problems instead of dick riding him. It doesn't help him, it just makes your 'crew' look ridiculous.
Then you should pay your employees more. Share the wealth, bigwig. Jesmu would agree with me.
They're paid well, and have benefits despite the position requiring very few qualifications. I think (not surprisingly) that you have a poor understanding of what socialism is.
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Herman
Outstanding post and thanks for sharing. That post should shut the door on this topic, but sadly, I am sure someone will find fault in your life story.
It is anecdotal, don't be silly.
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Hards
I think you may have missed the advice on doubling your money. There is more to it than just doubling your money.
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TAMU
I have no idea how may kids leave college debt free and never paying a dime to get an education. If your numbers are correct, and I believe you, then I am bigger sucker or nicer guy than I thought was for all of these years. For the record, I agree 100000% that anyone leaving college with debt is backed into a corner and it is difficult to get out. I will say the numbers you noted surprised me, but maybe it explains why it did not seem like a lot of my friends were as anxious about writing tuition checks when their kids were in college. That was a very stressful time in my life.
I told Hards he was the sucker at the table in this conversation and it now appears I am the sucker in this conversation. That said, I do not think I could have spent the money in a better way.
You're insanely nice and generous to have paid for your children's education. It is absolutely the outlier for normal behavior though. You're ability to do so has set your children up for success by removing a massive barrier to financial success... especially in their 20s.
Most parents can't afford to pull off what you've done. I had grants, scholarships, and worked while in school. I graduated in 04 with around 20k in loans. I am incredibly lucky to have had everything go my way as well, but my parents didn't pay for anything outside of the meal plan... and I'm not sure that was a gift considering the cuisine at the dorm halls. ;D
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Hards
I think you may have missed the advice on doubling your money. There is more to it than just doubling your money.
Oh, I understood it. I just think it's a strange thing to say. More money is always better. Does this advice apply to Mr. Bezos?
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No, that actually is not the point.
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No, that actually is not the point.
Not surprised.
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Not surprised.
Another gem.
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my new associate dentist, graduated from MUSOD 4 years ago over $400k in debt. has paid it down by $300k. i told him to slow down as he has that financed by sofi at 2.25%. that's the cheapest money he will see in his life time. plus he's gonna need some dry powder to buy me out ;D ;D ;D
when i graduated, i owed $120k at 14% thank you jimmy c
paid off both my kids MU educations of over $200k, the first half at 7.9%, then sofi came to the rescue thank God
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You're insanely nice and generous to have paid for your children's education. It is absolutely the outlier for normal behavior though. You're ability to do so has set your children up for success by removing a massive barrier to financial success... especially in their 20s.
Most parents can't afford to pull off what you've done. I had grants, scholarships, and worked while in school. I graduated in 04 with around 20k in loans. I am incredibly lucky to have had everything go my way as well, but my parents didn't pay for anything outside of the meal plan... and I'm not sure that was a gift considering the cuisine at the dorm halls. ;D
Evidently I know a hell of a lot of insanely nice and generous boomers. And better yet, I’m one too! And all the while I just thought I was doing my job.
Sorry your folks coulcn’t or didn’t do it for you but it’s time to put that grudge to bed.
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Evidently I know a hell of a lot of insanely nice and generous boomers. And better yet, I’m one too! And all the while I just thought I was doing my job.
Sorry your folks coulcn’t or didn’t do it for you but it’s time to put that grudge to bed.
It's not a grudge, Lenny. I don't hold those.
I'm not surprised you know a lot of rich boomers since you are one, and you went to a private university. Big shock that a bunch of wealthy boomers you know and hang out with can pay for their children's college.
But doesn't that counter Goose's point that he was making? He said my generation doesn't know HOW to work for things... and YOU guys paid for your children's schools... so uhhhhh I hate to take this logic step for you guys (since it seems to escape you more and more often), aren't you guys the problem?
I'm the kid you were. I worked for my education, I got scholarships, I paid my loans back in full. I did everything that is right (according to your weird values) and yet you all try to make me out to be some sort of self-pitying, entitled, millennial. When, by YOUR definition, you raised the kids who relied on mommy and daddy for their money.
Get your narratives straight, guys. This is embarrassing.
I assumed you're were smarter than this.
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Hards
I have never said or implied that your generation does not how to work for things. I have said opportunity is still there and if you want something to happen you need to make it happen.
I do believe the younger generation spends far too much time on the woe is me and spends a lot more money than previous generation.
I do agree with Lenny in the fact of doing our job by paying for our kid’s education. From the day my kids were born my wife and felt it was our responsibility and we have zero regrets.
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hards-
even though i paid for my kids educations, i did leave them with around $20-25k of their own to pay back specifically so they could feel it a little bit. however, it was no incentive to slack off. how often today you hear of these kids taking off for europe for 2-3 mos because it seems to the thing? my boys were at their jobs the monday after graduation and they haven't looked back. my oldest son started out in the banking business as a teller, moved up to regional manager and is now regional marketing manager for one of the biggest banks in wisconsin. my youngest has worked himself up to managing the web sales of a large local manufacturer for a large retail business and they want more
the most important thing we gave them is what was handed to us growing up-work ethic.
no surprise hards, that you don't see your own bitterness. that usually takes some humility. without that, you're missing a lot more than your bitterness. ya don't know, what ya don't know and never will
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hards-
even though i paid for my kids educations, i did leave them with around $20-25k of their own to pay back specifically so they could feel it a little bit. however, it was no incentive to slack off. how often today you hear of these kids taking off for europe for 2-3 mos because it seems to the thing? my boys were at their jobs the monday after graduation and they haven't looked back. my oldest son started out in the banking business as a teller, moved up to regional manager and is now regional marketing manager for one of the biggest banks in wisconsin. my youngest has worked himself up to managing the web sales of a large local manufacturer for a large retail business and they want more
the most important thing we gave them is what was handed to us growing up-work ethic.
no surprise hards, that you don't see your own bitterness. that usually takes some humility. without that, you're missing a lot more than your bitterness. ya don't know, what ya don't know and never will
2 out of 10
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nm
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I'm going to make a bold statement here regarding living anywhere other than one of the supremely overpriced metro areas like San Fran, NYC, DC, Chicago a bit, etc.
Here we go: If you are a dual income household where both spouses are college graduates 5 years out of school and/or a journeyman tradesperson, even with 30k in student loan debt, you can afford a home.
Obviously this statement is not taking into account poor life decisions like getting deep into other debts, having 6 kids before you’re ready, renting an apartment way out of your price range, etc. But otherwise point stands. There is still plenty of affordable housing available in most metro areas, it’s just a question of whether that housing meets your needs or (and this is really the crux) if it meets your wants. I’ve noticed far too often that people complaining about not being able to afford a home are looking to buy a home that is more than what they really need or in a community that is much higher priced simply because it’s THAT community. Have people forgotten the concept of a “starter home?” Or, do they remember it, but they wanted to live in a sweet albeit expensive apartment downtown for the years that their parents slummed it in a starter home and now need more but didn’t build the equity?
At this very moment, I could find you quite a few nice homes in quiet/safe neighborhoods in Milwaukee or Waukesha Counties in the $200k range.
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Yes, I think people are generally want to skip the "starter home" and go right to the place where they are going to raise their kids. Part of this is a function of people getting married later though. Pretty much all of my Marquette friends were married by the time they were 26 or so. That's rare these days.
My youngest is 26, has had the same girlfriend for almost two years, but they are nowhere close to getting married. They both have their own apartments (not in an expensive area though). If they eventually do get married, they still are quite a ways from buying a house.
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The discussion is interesting and deals with many subsets of why the Millennial generation is where they're at. I'll say it again, I don't think they're that much different than we boomers were, with a couple of exceptions.
What I will suggest is a couple of things. First, on college tuition, my very strong view is that college is a critical element to success. Even if you major in Philosophy, English or even Gender Studies, it teaches you to think and to adapt. Those are skills sorely needed in today's workforce. But the student has to be cognizant of the cost/benefit equation when a decision is made on institution, out-of-pocket tuition and the amount of debt they're taking on. I only see what is published, but it sure seems to me that the cost/benefit equation is often ignored.
The harsh reality is that we all can't go to Marquette. Some of us are fortunate enough to have resources behind us and don't have to worry about debt or tuition. Others may have to go to a smaller public university because that's what we can afford. Regardless, pick carefully and keep in mind that what you get out of college is a function of what you put into it. My children went to Southern Illinois University because of a special program SIU had. There's many great professors and great opportunities there -- if they took advantage of them!
Secondly, on housing, I've learned to HATE HGTV and House Hunters. HGTV has conditioned people to believe they can have a 3,000 square foot starter home with granite countertops, hardwood floors, white kitchens and stainless steel appliances (or whatever is popular today!). Buy what you can afford, keeping in mind that the amenities you need may be things other than what's found in the house. If you live in a major urban center, the great neighborhoods financially may be out of reach -- sorry, that's the market at work. Not even the government can fix that! If it could, San Francisco would be the most affordable city in America!
In the meantime, Millennials, please understand, your parents were just like you are -- 40 years ago! If that scares the hell out of you, too bad!
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Secondly, on housing, I've learned to HATE HGTV and House Hunters. HGTV has conditioned people to believe they can have a 3,000 square foot starter home with granite countertops, hardwood floors, white kitchens and stainless steel appliances (or whatever is popular today!). Buy what you can afford, keeping in mind that the amenities you need may be things other than what's found in the house. If you live in a major urban center, the great neighborhoods financially may be out of reach -- sorry, that's the market at work. Not even the government can fix that! If it could, San Francisco would be the most affordable city in America!
I think it's a bit much to suggest House Hunters has anything to do with millennials and subsequent generations struggles to afford housing, but I'm often stunned by the budget these people have.
Hi, I'm Dave, and I'm a part-time balloon artist.
I'm Brittany, and I work as a paralegal.
We have a budget of $1.2 million.
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The government can most certainly help fix the cost of housing. By allowing more housing to be built.
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dgies
I do find it amazing the money being spent by the younger generations. All three of my boys purchased properties in their 20's and all were priced accordingly for a starter home or condo. They have owned their properties for 3-8 years and have built up a nice equity over the years. Two of my sons purchased duplex's and it has worked well for them. That being said, all three would love to upgrade to bigger place, they are planning another 2-3 years before moving to bigger place. College debt is bad, I think being house poor is worse.
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I think there’s something to the idea of millennials see how their parents live now, and didn’t see the sacrifices made when younger to get to that position. So their expectations aren’t in-line with what they can afford. I know I fall victim to that at times.
I think there’s a lot of people that make poor financial decisions of all ages. I used to listen to the Dave Ramsey show a little bit and the there are people that just don’t know how to handle money. There’s definitely some bad spending to keep up with the Jones’.
I just personally think that some of the advantages previous generations had regarding costs of college and housing are much more difficult to utilize for the current generation without help from parents.
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I think there’s something to the idea of millennials see how their parents live now, and didn’t see the sacrifices made when younger to get to that position. So their expectations aren’t in-line with what they can afford. I know I fall victim to that at times.
How is this unique to millennials? Did previous generations not see how their parents were living?
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How is this unique to millennials? Did previous generations not see how their parents were living?
Boomers (the primary generation that Millenials are born of), definitely live a different life than pretty much any generation before them. The home sizes, average wealth, technology and luxuries, etc are not the same. Boomers were born post war when 1000 sq ft homes and a single family tv was the norm (if that, depending on year).
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There's an estimated housing shortage nationally of 3 million houses. But yes, the main culprit is because millennials standards are too high ::)
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Boomers (the primary generation that Millenials are born of), definitely live a different life than pretty much any generation before them. The home sizes, average wealth, technology and luxuries, etc are not the same. Boomers were born post war when 1000 sq ft homes and a single family tv was the norm (if that, depending on year).
According to this, the median house size in 1975 (when Gen Xers were coming up) was a tad under 1,600 square feet.
In the late 80s/early 90s, when the Millennials were growing up, it was about 1,750 square feet.
I'm not sure that 200-250ish extra square feet really makes that big of a difference.
The real growth in home sizes came after 2000, so I guess it's Gen Z we have to watch out for.
https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-us-homes-today-are-1000-square-feet-larger-than-in-1973-and-living-space-per-person-has-nearly-doubled/
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There's an estimated housing shortage nationally of 3 million houses. But yes, the main culprit is because millennials standards are too high ::)
There is certainly a housing shortage. But again, where is the shortage and who defines the shortage? It is not as simple as saying there are 3 million less houses built than are needed for people to live.
Going back to my statement, if you're a college grad 5 years out of school and/or a journman tradesperson... I'll show you homes you can afford in the Metro area (limited there only b/c that is what I know... I'm sure similar situation in other non overly-hot huge market).
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According to this, the median house size in 1975 (when Gen Xers were coming up) was a tad under 1,600 square feet.
In the late 80s/early 90s, when the Millennials were growing up, it was about 1,750 square feet.
I'm not sure that 200-250ish extra square feet really makes that big of a difference.
The real growth in home sizes came after 2000, so I guess it's Gen Z we have to watch out for.
https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-us-homes-today-are-1000-square-feet-larger-than-in-1973-and-living-space-per-person-has-nearly-doubled/
GenX and Millenials aren't that different necessarily in that regard, except GenX largely had a head start on home buying so they aren't trying to buy a first home. Plus, many Millenials' parents are the ones who built those houses in the late 90's-2000's.
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Around here, in small towns 25 miles away from the metropolitan center, 'fixer-uppers' can still be had for a song. Now, do you want to live a 40 minute drive from a metropolitan center? Can you fix up a fixer-upper? One of my best friend's sons was willing to do so and bought his first house for right around a $100k. He is in a town of 500 people, and he has a lot of work to do on the house. But you have to be willing to do that.
FWIW, I was talking with my wife about some of these issues and she reminded me about coupon books and how for the first several years of our marriage, our choice of restaurant was dictated by the coupons we had.
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Around here, in small towns 25 miles away from the metropolitan center, 'fixer-uppers' can still be had for a song. Now, do you want to live a 40 minute drive from a metropolitan center? Can you fix up a fixer-upper? One of my best friend's sons was willing to do so and bought his first house for right around a $100k. He is in a town of 500 people, and he has a lot of work to do on the house. But you have to be willing to do that.
FWIW, I was talking with my wife about some of these issues and she reminded me about coupon books and how for the first several years of our marriage, our choice of restaurant was dictated by the coupons we had.
Are you insinuating that Millenials refuse to use coupons, sir?! The gall you have!
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Are you insinuating that Millenials refuse to use coupons, sir?! The gall you have!
What's a coupon?
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No. My wife insinuated that. Therefore, it is by definition indisputable
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I want to be very very clear on something.
I am a millenial.
I really really want to use coupons.
I cut coupons.
I don't use coupons... they sit until they expire and I throw them away.
It feels very good to get that off of my chest!
Oh and also gift cards. But instead of expiring, I just lose them. :-[
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The government can most certainly help fix the cost of housing. By allowing more housing to be built.
Then San Francisco, the capital of the nanny state, should be awash in affordable housing!
All those woke Democrats in San Francisco are really woke, until someone proposes to build affordable housing in their neighborhood. Then they become as NIMBY as any Reagan-style Republican!
Yeah, you're right, but permitting for affordable housing is tough, especially in upwardly mobile suburban communities.
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Going back to my statement, if you're a college grad 5 years out of school and/or a journman tradesperson... I'll show you homes you can afford in the Metro area (limited there only b/c that is what I know... I'm sure similar situation in other non overly-hot huge market).
No you can't. You can find individual families homes that they can afford, but you can't find one for every family looking for one. Especially considering that starter homes are being bought up by Boomers and Gen Xers who have a significant advantage due to previously earned equity and are turning them into rental properties.
You've lost sight of the conversation being had. We are talking about the differences between challenges faced by boomers entering the housing market and millennials entering the housing market. Boomers did not enter the market facing a housing shortage of this magnitude. Boomers did not have to compete with the Silent Generation and Greatest Generation buying up starter homes because they can. Boomers weren't carrying staggering student loan debts and facing record inflation, both of which are far outpacing wages. Boomers didn't have two housing crises within a dozen years of each other right as they were entering the housing market. When Boomers entered the market, houses were being built at record rates and since the great recession they are being built at the lowest rate in decades. Boomers are also living much longer than the Greatest Generation did, which is a good thing, but it does mean that they are staying in their homes longer and medical advances are making it easier to avoid nursing homes and assisted living.
All of these are much more to blame than millennials having too high of standards. It's a red herring to deflect from all of these other issues. Yes, there are millennials whose standards are too high. Just like they were in past generations. They have nothing to do with the current housing situation. There are other factors that are millennials own fault such as getting married later and delaying having kids but they are also minor compared to the other systemic factors.
And before anyone pegs this as a "woe is me" post, it's not. My family is fine. We're renting, which is akin to setting money on fire, but it's what we have to do and we're making it work. We're scrounging as best we can and will one day buy a starter home that will not be nearly what we wish it was but will be ecstatic to have. This post is just asking for some honesty about the current housing situation and to knock off this nonsense about millennials being too picky being the cause of the housing crisis.
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No you can't. You can find individual families homes that they can afford, but you can't find one for every family looking for one. Especially considering that starter homes are being bought up by Boomers and Gen Xers who have a significant advantage due to previously earned equity and are turning them into rental properties.
You've lost sight of the conversation being had. We are talking about the differences between challenges faced by boomers entering the housing market and millennials entering the housing market. Boomers did not enter the market facing a housing shortage of this magnitude. Boomers did not have to compete with the Silent Generation and Greatest Generation buying up starter homes because they can. Boomers weren't carrying staggering student loan debts and facing record inflation, both of which are far outpacing wages. Boomers didn't have two housing crises within a dozen years of each other right as they were entering the housing market. When Boomers entered the market, houses were being built at record rates and since the great recession they are being built at the lowest rate in decades. Boomers are also living much longer than the Greatest Generation did, which is a good thing, but it does mean that they are staying in their homes longer and medical advances are making it easier to avoid nursing homes and assisted living.
All of these are much more to blame than millennials having too high of standards. It's a red herring to deflect from all of these other issues. Yes, there are millennials whose standards are too high. Just like they were in past generations. They have nothing to do with the current housing situation. There are other factors that are millennials own fault such as getting married later and delaying having kids but they are also minor compared to the other systemic factors.
And before anyone pegs this as a "woe is me" post, it's not. My family is fine. We're renting, which is akin to setting money on fire, but it's what we have to do and we're making it work. We're scrounging as best we can and will one day buy a starter home that will not be nearly what we wish it was but will be ecstatic to have. This post is just asking for some honesty about the current housing situation and to knock off this nonsense about millennials being too picky being the cause of the housing crisis.
I'm not blind to the challenges a first time home buyer faces or that prices are higher, especially in the last few years. Let's also not pretend like Boomers and others had it easy either. Soaring inflation and interest rates, S&L crisis, etc. all happened. Lucky are the ones who were house hunting in the glorious 90's! :) I'm just saying, despite all the headwinds, there are home ownership options out there, just maybe not the ones people want. If you want to call that being picky, ok sure. Those are your words, not mine. I just see it as being realistic BECAUSE of those challenges you mentioned.
Personal question, if I may ask. Are you and Mrs. Tamu willing to buy a 1200 sq ft house with 1 bath and a interior style that could be be described as vintage 1970's within a 40 min commute to work? That is otherwise structurally and mechanically sound though.
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No you can't. You can find individual families homes that they can afford, but you can't find one for every family looking for one. Especially considering that starter homes are being bought up by Boomers and Gen Xers who have a significant advantage due to previously earned equity and are turning them into rental properties.
You've lost sight of the conversation being had. We are talking about the differences between challenges faced by boomers entering the housing market and millennials entering the housing market. Boomers did not enter the market facing a housing shortage of this magnitude. Boomers did not have to compete with the Silent Generation and Greatest Generation buying up starter homes because they can. Boomers weren't carrying staggering student loan debts and facing record inflation, both of which are far outpacing wages. Boomers didn't have two housing crises within a dozen years of each other right as they were entering the housing market. When Boomers entered the market, houses were being built at record rates and since the great recession they are being built at the lowest rate in decades. Boomers are also living much longer than the Greatest Generation did, which is a good thing, but it does mean that they are staying in their homes longer and medical advances are making it easier to avoid nursing homes and assisted living.
All of these are much more to blame than millennials having too high of standards. It's a red herring to deflect from all of these other issues. Yes, there are millennials whose standards are too high. Just like they were in past generations. They have nothing to do with the current housing situation. There are other factors that are millennials own fault such as getting married later and delaying having kids but they are also minor compared to the other systemic factors.
And before anyone pegs this as a "woe is me" post, it's not. My family is fine. We're renting, which is akin to setting money on fire, but it's what we have to do and we're making it work. We're scrounging as best we can and will one day buy a starter home that will not be nearly what we wish it was but will be ecstatic to have. This post is just asking for some honesty about the current housing situation and to knock off this nonsense about millennials being too picky being the cause of the housing crisis.
OK ... I think you've seen that I've defended Millennials and asked Boomers to stop generalizing too much about them. But here you are, generalizing a ton about Boomers and what we faced.
I'll start with this:
Boomers did not enter the market facing a housing shortage of this magnitude. Boomers did not have to compete with the Silent Generation and Greatest Generation buying up starter homes because they can. Boomers weren't carrying staggering student loan debts and facing record inflation, both of which are far outpacing wages. Boomers didn't have two housing crises within a dozen years of each other right as they were entering the housing market. When Boomers entered the market, houses were being built at record rates and since the great recession they are being built at the lowest rate in decades.
Some of that is true, some is questionable (Boomers didn't face high inflation?), and it also omits plenty.
Boomers around my age and older faced a recession, staggering inflation and record-high mortgage rates. Rates have only recently gone from historic lows (under 3%) up to 6%+, and I get that makes it difficult for some to get mortgages now. But TAMU, do you know what the 30-year mortgage rate was when we bought our first house in 1985? Fourteen effen percent! The only way we qualified was to get a 1-year ARM at the wonderful rate of 8 7/8% ... and then we had to sweat it out -- how high would it climb after that? The loans we got on our cars were 12% or higher.
Oh, and there were just about no jobs when I graduated in 1982 -- it was a very deep and painful recession, and things were just starting to get better 2-3 years later. I had student loans to pay back, as did my wife; it took us years. Yes, all of the costs were lower -- houses, cars, college education -- but our salaries also were a relative pittance back then.
No, we didn't face the same kind of housing shortage there is now, but every time we looked at a house we even kind of liked, it seemed like it was just a little too expensive for us to buy.
I'm sure there are Boomers who had an easier path, but probably not as many as you think. TAMU, you make it sound like we all were swimming in cash, that recessions and inflation didn't exist, that mortgage rates were wonderful, and that we could simply pick and choose among the zillions of available houses because we could afford them all. Come on, man!
Yes, I sympathize with what younger generations are facing now when it comes to housing. My son is in his mid-30s and he and his wife bought their first house (Chicago area) about 2 years ago. They went into the process with a long list of what they wanted, but reality soon hit -- they couldn't get close to buying their dream house. They ended up buying a big house in a good suburb but it needs a TON of work, almost top to bottom, and they are not handy. They are learning to do what they can themselves but otherwise slowly paying for the most important projects to be done. They were, however, very lucky to get a historically low mortgage rate -- they couldn't have bought without it, and I definitely can see how even today's rates (which are half of what many Boomers faced) are preventing them from buying homes.
As for all the other stuff people are saying here -- what Millennials spend on avocado toast and all that other crap, I'm not gonna go there. So much is exaggerated, over-generalized, and/or full of anecdotal "evidence." Some Millennials throw money around like they are rich, some hoard it like they are poor, and most are somewhere in between.
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I’m a millennial and I can say I’ve never had a single bite of a avocado toast
Now I’m going to go spend money on traveling to Marquette games
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I wonder what the square footage is of each Scooper’s house. Also, what they named their pets.
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I'm not blind to the challenges a first time home buyer faces or that prices are higher, especially in the last few years. Let's also not pretend like Boomers and others had it easy either. Soaring inflation and interest rates, S&L crisis, etc. all happened. Lucky are the ones who were house hunting in the glorious 90's! :) I'm just saying, despite all the headwinds, there are home ownership options out there, just maybe not the ones people want. If you want to call that being picky, ok sure. Those are your words, not mine. I just see it as being realistic BECAUSE of those challenges you mentioned.
Personal question, if I may ask. Are you and Mrs. Tamu willing to buy a 1200 sq ft house with 1 bath and a interior style that could be be described as vintage 1970's within a 40 min commute to work? That is otherwise structurally and mechanically sound though.
Lol. Cut 15 minutes off the commute, add a half bath, and change it to vintage 1950s with significant issues and that's what I'm currently renting. We tried to talk to our landlord about buying it off them and they told us that they can make a lot more renting it out.
And again, no one is arguing that there are no affordable houses period. The conversation is about the barriers to entry now versus when Boomers were entering the market. And yes, there are more barriers now, significantly more.
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Personal question, if I may ask. Are you and Mrs. Tamu willing to buy a 1200 sq ft house with 1 bath and a interior style that could be be described as vintage 1970's within a 40 min commute to work? That is otherwise structurally and mechanically sound though.
This is basically what we did in 1992. 975 square feet, cheapest house on the block and we fixed it up whenever possible. That roof did take about 5 years to be able to afford replacing, bowls on the counters during rain storms etc.
I moved so many times before this house that I have sworn to never move again. Now we're the old timers in the neighborhood.
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OK ... I think you've seen that I've defended Millennials and asked Boomers to stop generalizing too much about them. But here you are, generalizing a ton about Boomers and what we faced.
I'll start with this:
Boomers did not enter the market facing a housing shortage of this magnitude. Boomers did not have to compete with the Silent Generation and Greatest Generation buying up starter homes because they can. Boomers weren't carrying staggering student loan debts and facing record inflation, both of which are far outpacing wages. Boomers didn't have two housing crises within a dozen years of each other right as they were entering the housing market. When Boomers entered the market, houses were being built at record rates and since the great recession they are being built at the lowest rate in decades.
Some of that is true, some is questionable (Boomers didn't face high inflation?), and it also omits plenty.
Boomers around my age and older faced a recession, staggering inflation and record-high mortgage rates. Rates have only recently gone from historic lows (under 3%) up to 6%+, and I get that makes it difficult for some to get mortgages now. But TAMU, do you know what the 30-year mortgage rate was when we bought our first house in 1985? Fourteen effen percent! The only way we qualified was to get a 1-year ARM at the wonderful rate of 8 7/8% ... and then we had to sweat it out -- how high would it climb after that? The loans we got on our cars were 12% or higher.
Oh, and there were just about no jobs when I graduated in 1982 -- it was a very deep and painful recession, and things were just starting to get better 2-3 years later. I had student loans to pay back, as did my wife; it took us years. Yes, all of the costs were lower -- houses, cars, college education -- but our salaries also were a relative pittance back then.
No, we didn't face the same kind of housing shortage there is now, but every time we looked at a house we even kind of liked, it seemed like it was just a little too expensive for us to buy.
I'm sure there are Boomers who had an easier path, but probably not as many as you think. TAMU, you make it sound like we all were swimming in cash, that recessions and inflation didn't exist, that mortgage rates were wonderful, and that we could simply pick and choose among the zillions of available houses because we could afford them all. Come on, man!
Yes, I sympathize with what younger generations are facing now when it comes to housing. My son is in his mid-30s and he and his wife bought their first house (Chicago area) about 2 years ago. They went into the process with a long list of what they wanted, but reality soon hit -- they couldn't get close to buying their dream house. They ended up buying a big house in a good suburb but it needs a TON of work, almost top to bottom, and they are not handy. They are learning to do what they can themselves but otherwise slowly paying for the most important projects to be done. They were, however, very lucky to get a historically low mortgage rate -- they couldn't have bought without it, and I definitely can see how even today's rates (which are half of what many Boomers faced) are preventing them from buying homes.
As for all the other stuff people are saying here -- what Millennials spend on avocado toast and all that other crap, I'm not gonna go there. So much is exaggerated, over-generalized, and/or full of anecdotal "evidence." Some Millennials throw money around like they are rich, some hoard it like they are poor, and most are somewhere in between.
Mike, I didn't say Boomers didn't face issues. But collectively they faced a lot less issues buying a house than millennials have. That's indisputable. And bluntly, boomers were swimming in cash compared to millennials, especially boomers who could afford to go to college.
Using your graduation year, the average straight out of college salary in 1982 was $22,449 which translates $68,898 today. Comparatively, the average salary straight out of college now is $55,260. Cost of college has greatly outpaced inflation so that means today's graduates are paying significantly more for worse value (in terms of starting salary after graduation). Boomers at this point in their careers owned 21% of the wealth in the US. Millennials own 5%. Couple that with a housing shortage and people staying in their houses longer than ever and you have the current mess.
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I wonder what the square footage is of each Scooper’s house. Also, what they named their pets.
1300. No pets
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I wonder what the square footage is of each Scooper’s house. Also, what they named their pets.
975sq
Our dogs over the years: Brute, Missy, Colin, Tango, Spook, Faith, Marley
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1300. No pets
75,000 and two dogs named Nixon and Richard
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I wonder what the square footage is of each Scooper’s house. Also, what they named their pets.
Square Footage: Classified
Name of my Canine: Duncan (a cocker spaniel)
Housing affordability is a complex calculation that's a function of downpayment, taxes, mortgage terms and insurance costs.
For example, in the Denver suburb where my 26-year-old just married daughter lives, houses run from $500,000 to $800,000. But property taxes are $2,000 to $2,500 annually and insurance is about $750 to $1,500 annually.
In the suburb where I lived in Chicago, the property taxes on a $550,000 home were more than $14,000 and the hazards were greater, leading to insurance bills of about $3,000.
My daughter and her husband are paying $1,800/month in rent. Assuming they can come up with 10 percent down, they could afford the Denver home. There's no way in hell they could afford the Chicago area home.
Of course, with the recent rise in mortgage interest rates, maybe they can't afford either. But that's probably transitory.
In Florida, I won't even go into taxes, they're ridiculously low. But homeowners insurance is outrageous. We looked at a home last spring and backed off when we were told the annual premiums were $15,000. It was frame and had no hurricane glass in it.
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Mike, I didn't say Boomers didn't face issues. But collectively they faced a lot less issues buying a house than millennials have. That's indisputable. And bluntly, boomers were swimming in cash compared to millennials, especially boomers who could afford to go to college.
Using your graduation year, the average straight out of college salary in 1982 was $22,449 which translates $68,898 today. Comparatively, the average salary straight out of college now is $55,260. Cost of college has greatly outpaced inflation so that means today's graduates are paying significantly more for worse value (in terms of starting salary after graduation). Boomers at this point in their careers owned 21% of the wealth in the US. Millennials own 5%. Couple that with a housing shortage and people staying in their houses longer than ever and you have the current mess.
OK. Thanks for at least not suggesting again that Boomers didn't face inflation or recession!
Sounds like you Millennials need to work harder and stop buying the newest iPhone the day it comes out.
<ducks>
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I'd be embarrassed to be a millennial at this point.
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I wonder what the square footage is of each Scooper’s house. Also, what they named their pets.
Not classified like dgies. 2.000. Also have 600 sq. ft. of 10' deep wraparound porch plus 12 acres for country living. Life is good.
Great Danes Tristan, Amadeus, Beagle Sasha, cats Smudge, Java, Casey, and horses Don Quixote and Amigo. Only Sasha and Casey still with us.
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975sq
Our dogs over the years: Brute, Missy, Colin, Tango, Spook, Faith, Marley
???
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I wonder what the square footage is of each Scooper’s house. Also, what they named their pets.
I’m not entirely sure on square footage as I recently finished basement and haven’t had appraised yet, but somewhere around 4,500?
Our dog Eloise was a rescue and was already named when we got her. Prior dog was also a rescue but we named her Margarita but called her Maggie/Mags/Magzilla depending on her behavior/our mood.
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JB, can i count the man cave?
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About 4500 square feet, I get about 100 of that as my own.
Three cats and one axolotl
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Lol. Cut 15 minutes off the commute, add a half bath, and change it to vintage 1950s with significant issues and that's what I'm currently renting. We tried to talk to our landlord about buying it off them and they told us that they can make a lot more renting it out.
And again, no one is arguing that there are no affordable houses period. The conversation is about the barriers to entry now versus when Boomers were entering the market. And yes, there are more barriers now, significantly more.
Tamu: I just sent a pm with a listing you can afford
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About 4500 square feet, I get about 100 of that as my own.
Three cats and one axolotl
I had to look that up. How on earth did it occur to you to get one of those as a pet?
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I wonder what the square footage is of each Scooper’s house. Also, what they named their pets.
depends on what you classify as a "pet"...moby :-X and ozzie ;D ;D ;D
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hards-
even though i paid for my kids educations, i did leave them with around $20-25k of their own to pay back specifically so they could feel it a little bit. however, it was no incentive to slack off. how often today you hear of these kids taking off for europe for 2-3 mos because it seems to the thing? my boys were at their jobs the monday after graduation and they haven't looked back. my oldest son started out in the banking business as a teller, moved up to regional manager and is now regional marketing manager for one of the biggest banks in wisconsin. my youngest has worked himself up to managing the web sales of a large local manufacturer for a large retail business and they want more
the most important thing we gave them is what was handed to us growing up-work ethic.
no surprise hards, that you don't see your own bitterness. that usually takes some humility. without that, you're missing a lot more than your bitterness. ya don't know, what ya don't know and never will
Good for you. I'm not bitter, homie. What would I have to be bitter about? I just want the next generation to not have to deal with the mess y'all are leaving us.
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The discussion is interesting and deals with many subsets of why the Millennial generation is where they're at. I'll say it again, I don't think they're that much different than we boomers were, with a couple of exceptions.
What I will suggest is a couple of things. First, on college tuition, my very strong view is that college is a critical element to success. Even if you major in Philosophy, English or even Gender Studies, it teaches you to think and to adapt. Those are skills sorely needed in today's workforce. But the student has to be cognizant of the cost/benefit equation when a decision is made on institution, out-of-pocket tuition and the amount of debt they're taking on. I only see what is published, but it sure seems to me that the cost/benefit equation is often ignored.
The harsh reality is that we all can't go to Marquette. Some of us are fortunate enough to have resources behind us and don't have to worry about debt or tuition. Others may have to go to a smaller public university because that's what we can afford. Regardless, pick carefully and keep in mind that what you get out of college is a function of what you put into it. My children went to Southern Illinois University because of a special program SIU had. There's many great professors and great opportunities there -- if they took advantage of them!
Secondly, on housing, I've learned to HATE HGTV and House Hunters. HGTV has conditioned people to believe they can have a 3,000 square foot starter home with granite countertops, hardwood floors, white kitchens and stainless steel appliances (or whatever is popular today!). Buy what you can afford, keeping in mind that the amenities you need may be things other than what's found in the house. If you live in a major urban center, the great neighborhoods financially may be out of reach -- sorry, that's the market at work. Not even the government can fix that! If it could, San Francisco would be the most affordable city in America!
In the meantime, Millennials, please understand, your parents were just like you are -- 40 years ago! If that scares the hell out of you, too bad!
Pretty good until the last sentence.
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There's an estimated housing shortage nationally of 3 million houses. But yes, the main culprit is because millennials standards are too high ::)
Boomers are living longer and staying in their houses longer which, coupled with less new homes being built has put us where we are.
That and the general movement of population to more urban settings.
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I'd be embarrassed to be a millennial at this point.
That's because you're simple.
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That's because you're simple.
🤡🤡🤡
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Good for you. I'm not bitter, homie. What would I have to be bitter about? I just want the next generation to not have to deal with the mess y'all are leaving us.
Kumbaya Bro, aina?
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I had to look that up. How on earth did it occur to you to get one of those as a pet?
My 10 year old son read about them and became obsessed. Although there are less than 1000 left in the wild, they are pretty easy to get as a pet in some areas. I think we paid $50 for ours.
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I saw this on another site-
"At my age, my parents had a house and a family. So do I, but it's the same house and same family."
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My 10 year old son read about them and became obsessed. Although there are less than 1000 left in the wild, they are pretty easy to get as a pet in some areas. I think we paid $50 for ours.
As someone who grew up around the aquarium hobby and still is an active participant, I was always familiar and used to see them a decent amount whether in online vendors or in specialty stores. But over the last 4-5 years I feel like their popularity exploded. I see them everywhere now. Which is cool, given their predicament in the wild. They are funky little dudes.
Did he get an albino one?
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???
All but 1 of those dogs are dobermans from the same breeder the last 25 years. Spook's a 85 lb. fawn doberman that the breeder named. She (breeder) has a "name theme" for every litter. Long story short, we debated changing his name but didn't since she is AA and felt OK with the name, in fact she discouraged us from changing it.
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As someone who grew up around the aquarium hobby and still is an active participant, I was always familiar and used to see them a decent amount whether in online vendors or in specialty stores. But over the last 4-5 years I feel like their popularity exploded. I see them everywhere now. Which is cool, given their predicament in the wild. They are funky little dudes.
Did he get an albino one?
Nope, its yellow with red feathery gills. Looks like friggin ronald mcdonald with the permanent smile. Poor thing has half a front leg (we think a family member ate it before we got him). Hoped it would regrow, as they have that ability to regrow limbs and its spinal cord as well. Didn't happen. Named him Sally (Sal E. if its a boy). They are so popular now that Minecraft even has them. We have had Sal for about a year.
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Kumbaya Bro, aina?
Hakuna matata
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I saw this on another site-
"At my age, my parents had a house and a family. So do I, but it's the same house and same family."
Gonna share that with my adult daughter when she gets home. Thanks for sharing.
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I just want the next generation to not have to deal with the mess y'all are leaving us." ?????
holy schnikees!! ya'll?? whoa whoa hows about YOU all! the mess we are in right now has nothing to do with us meat lovers, that's for sure! i'm hoping and praying enough people get religion in a few weeks and we can find our way back to the roaring days of cheap gas and low interest rates and stupid tweets
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I just want the next generation to not have to deal with the mess y'all are leaving us." ?????
holy schnikees!! ya'll?? whoa whoa hows about YOU all! the mess we are in right now has nothing to do with us meat lovers, that's for sure! i'm hoping and praying enough people get religion in a few weeks and we can find our way back to the roaring days of cheap gas and low interest rates and stupid tweets
Wasn't expecting to see rocket advocate for a return to the Obama years, and yet here we are.
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Wasn't expecting to see rocket advocate for a return to the Obama years, and yet here we are.
We are still in the Obama years, he's the shadow president.
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Pretty sure he's pullin' da Buffoon's puppet strings, hey?
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We are still in the Obama years, he's the shadow president.
Pretty sure he's pullin' da Buffoon's puppet strings, hey?
I wish. His shadow looms large over everything Biden does, but that's a poor substitute for the highest IQ president we've had during my lifetime.
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I just want the next generation to not have to deal with the mess y'all are leaving us." ?????
holy schnikees!! ya'll?? whoa whoa hows about YOU all! the mess we are in right now has nothing to do with us meat lovers, that's for sure! i'm hoping and praying enough people get religion in a few weeks and we can find our way back to the roaring days of cheap gas and low interest rates and stupid tweets
Again, I'm doing great. My generation is struggling. I don't like that.
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I just want the next generation to not have to deal with the mess y'all are leaving us." ?????
holy schnikees!! ya'll?? whoa whoa hows about YOU all! the mess we are in right now has nothing to do with us meat lovers, that's for sure! i'm hoping and praying enough people get religion in a few weeks and we can find our way back to the roaring days of cheap gas and low interest rates and stupid tweets
5 out of 10
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5 out of 10
almost slipped one past the stalker...took over an hour for reeko to sniff this one out. maybe the rocket beeper's batteries were running low or maybe he was in the john workin out an extra long deucer...it was a deuce you were workin out in there, right? awww shnitt, we don't really wanna know-lalalalalalalalalalala. TMI alert TMI alert TMI alert
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almost slipped one past the stalker...took over an hour for reeko to sniff this one out. maybe the rocket beeper's batteries were running low or maybe he was in the john workin out an extra long deucer...it was a deuce you were workin out in there, right? awww shnitt, we don't really wanna know-lalalalalalalalalalala. TMI alert TMI alert TMI alert
Give this a 7 out of 10
Playing the victim, fantasizing about someone in the bathroom and rambling incoherently
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Give this a 7 out of 10
Playing the victim, fantasizing about someone in the bathroom and rambling incoherently
good morning sunshine
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I wasn't able to catch up with our conversation TAMU, and it largely seems to have moved on now. However, I commend you for being someone who actually has a rational perspective on how the situation presents it's challenges and options for you. Too many people in my circles just play the blame game instead of also trying to find solutions (and being open to a "starter house").
A few more observations; by and large our generation decided to postpone home buying and starting families. So I can't help but cringe when I hear complaints that housing is tight now that both millennials and boomers are targeting the same homes. If Millenials followed a traditional path (I'm not saying that's what they should have done, each decision by an individual can do what is right for them), they would already have a larger foothold on the market before boomers decided to downsize. This also played a hand in how much new housing was built in the last 20 years and what types of homes. Since mainly Boomers were driving the market, most homes built would be catered to them. aka larger and more expensive homes. This majorly depressed "affordable" new home building, that we're only now finally seeing again in the last 5-10 years.
In addition, home ownership is one of the largest drivers of wealth. So when we look at lower average wealth of Millenials compared to their parents, how much of that is because they in fact decided not to pursue home ownership? Yes, economic downturns made things more challenging compared to the late 80's/90's, but we still recovered and there was plenty of opportunity over that time.
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i'm hoping and praying enough people get religion in a few weeks and we can find our way back to the roaring days of cheap gas and low interest rates conspiracy theories guiding public policy and religious hypocrisy and policies pushing hatred toward marginalized groups and tax cuts for billionaires and violent coups against America and book banning and canceling millions of votes and rampant racism and love of guns above all else and attacks against democracy and stupid tweets
FIFY
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I don't know about other areas but in SE Wisconsin, starter homes typically are found in urban areas. Everyone wants to live in the burbs but that's where all the larger homes are.
We couldn't afford Waukesha county in the 1990's so we "settled" for an old house in MKE county.
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I wasn't able to catch up with our conversation TAMU, and it largely seems to have moved on now. However, I commend you for being someone who actually has a rational perspective on how the situation presents it's challenges and options for you. Too many people in my circles just play the blame game instead of also trying to find solutions (and being open to a "starter house").
A few more observations; by and large our generation decided to postpone home buying and starting families. So I can't help but cringe when I hear complaints that housing is tight now that both millennials and boomers are targeting the same homes. If Millenials followed a traditional path (I'm not saying that's what they should have done, each decision by an individual can do what is right for them), they would already have a larger foothold on the market before boomers decided to downsize. This also played a hand in how much new housing was built in the last 20 years and what types of homes. Since mainly Boomers were driving the market, most homes built would be catered to them. aka larger and more expensive homes. This majorly depressed "affordable" new home building, that we're only now finally seeing again in the last 5-10 years.
In addition, home ownership is one of the largest drivers of wealth. So when we look at lower average wealth of Millenials compared to their parents, how much of that is because they in fact decided not to pursue home ownership? Yes, economic downturns made things more challenging compared to the late 80's/90's, but we still recovered and there was plenty of opportunity over that time.
Revisionist history. A large portion of Millennials came of age during the 2008 housing crisis. Anyone buying a home from 04-08 was buying overpriced homes... homes that new home buyers (millennials) could not afford. Afterwards was 10% unemployment and a lot of young people (millennials again) had problems finding work straight out of school.
Fewer jobs available, decreased savings, and fear that the housing bubble would happen again strongly contributed to millennials being slow to purchase homes.
This lazy narrative that millennials CHOSE to not buy into the housing market seemingly, "just because" is just flat out wrong. The generation was just beginning to build wealth and purchase homes when the pandemic struck. Why do you think the housing market was so hot? Millennials finally had the wealth to purchase homes en masse... except that a decades worth of them were all trying to purchase at once. Pair that with low numbers of new builds, and boomers and SGs staying in their homes longer, and you see the results.
Now that interest rates are through the roof for 30 year mortgages (over 7%) and housing prices have barely dipped, you're going to continue to see a lot of millennials and especially zoomers stuck at home with their parents... or they'll continue to be stuck renting.
https://www.investopedia.com/insights/how-financial-crisis-affected-millennials/
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-the-great-recession-affected-millennials-2019-8
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I don't know about other areas but in SE Wisconsin, starter homes typically are found in urban areas. Everyone wants to live in the burbs but that's where all the larger homes are.
We couldn't afford Waukesha county in the 1990's so we "settled" for an old house in MKE county.
You can't get a 'starter' home in Madison for under 250k. There are a few 2 BR 1B homes around the East Side that can be had for
that number... but also, supply is very low.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/105-Lansing-St-Madison-WI-53714/55417852_zpid/
I take it back. I found one for 175k. It's 672 sq ft. Priced very affordably at $260 sq/ft. Plus, you get the luxury of having a train rumble through your backyard several times a day! Smaller than a lot of apartments. 50 sq ft smaller than my 1 BR apartment that I had straight out of college on 21st St.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1805-Baird-St-Madison-WI-53713/55407507_zpid/?
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Revisionist history. A large portion of Millennials came of age during the 2008 housing crisis. Anyone buying a home from 04-08 was buying overpriced homes... homes that new home buyers (millennials) could not afford. Afterwards was 10% unemployment and a lot of young people (millennials again) had problems finding work straight out of school.
Fewer jobs available, decreased savings, and fear that the housing bubble would happen again strongly contributed to millennials being slow to purchase homes.
This lazy narrative that millennials CHOSE to not buy into the housing market seemingly, "just because" is just flat out wrong. The generation was just beginning to build wealth and purchase homes when the pandemic struck. Why do you think the housing market was so hot? Millennials finally had the wealth to purchase homes en masse... except that a decades worth of them were all trying to purchase at once. Pair that with low numbers of new builds, and boomers and SGs staying in their homes longer, and you see the results.
Now that interest rates are through the roof for 30 year mortgages (over 7%) and housing prices have barely dipped, you're going to continue to see a lot of millennials and especially zoomers stuck at home with their parents... or they'll continue to be stuck renting.
https://www.investopedia.com/insights/how-financial-crisis-affected-millennials/
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-the-great-recession-affected-millennials-2019-8
Brother Hards:
During the 2004 to 2008 housing run-up, there was a direct correlation between low interest rates and far higher housing values. As rates decreased, housing values increased, allowing more value to go to the homeowner rather than the mortgage company.
The housing crisis of 2008 affected all of us. In my neighborhood in Illinois, a good friend sold his home for $580,000 almost the day before the housing downturn hit. That house sold again six years later for $440,000.
In Illinois, the state's unfunded public pension deficit of $150 billion (excluding Chicago, which probably would push that to close to $200 billion), businesses that are relocating out of the state (Allstate, Caterpillar, Citadel, Boeing, Takada, Tysons etc) are combining to have a debilitating effect on home values. Couple that with absurd property taxes and uncertainty over the state's anticipated tax scenario and you get very poor real estate appreciation.
In the neighborhood in which I sold a home in August, we probably were close to the high water mark. With 30-year mortgage interest rates approaching 7 percent again, real estate is in for a shock that's likely to last for a few years. Unless, of course, you live in my new neighborhood in Florida where most buyers pay cash. Even then, with sales down in the Northeast and Midwest, I'm expecting a modest slowdown.
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Brother Hards:
During the 2004 to 2008 housing run-up, there was a direct correlation between low interest rates and far higher housing values. As rates decreased, housing values increased, allowing more value to go to the homeowner rather than the mortgage company.
The housing crisis of 2008 affected all of us. In my neighborhood in Illinois, a good friend sold his home for $580,000 almost the day before the housing downturn hit. That house sold again six years later for $440,000.
Oh yeah? How did it change your and your friend's day-to-day? Did you buy smaller homes, put off major life decisions, etc.? The most frustrating thing about these conversations to me is that your age bracket says "hey millenials, thems the shakes, it affected us all." But it didn't. It emotionally affected you because your 401(k) balance went down. But it didn't ACTUALLY change any aspect of how you lived your life - you just temporarily felt less secure in your distant financial future. It is the functional equivalent now of a millenial looking at their 401(k) and pretending the stock market drop affects them the same as someone on a fixed income. It might make them feel less secure, but it doesn't affect their life decisions or spending in a material way.
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Brother Hards:
During the 2004 to 2008 housing run-up, there was a direct correlation between low interest rates and far higher housing values. As rates decreased, housing values increased, allowing more value to go to the homeowner rather than the mortgage company.
The housing crisis of 2008 affected all of us. In my neighborhood in Illinois, a good friend sold his home for $580,000 almost the day before the housing downturn hit. That house sold again six years later for $440,000.
In Illinois, the state's unfunded public pension deficit of $150 billion (excluding Chicago, which probably would push that to close to $200 billion), businesses that are relocating out of the state (Allstate, Caterpillar, Citadel, Boeing, Takada, Tysons etc) are combining to have a debilitating effect on home values. Couple that with absurd property taxes and uncertainty over the state's anticipated tax scenario and you get very poor real estate appreciation.
In the neighborhood in which I sold a home in August, we probably were close to the high water mark. With 30-year mortgage interest rates approaching 7 percent again, real estate is in for a shock that's likely to last for a few years. Unless, of course, you live in my new neighborhood in Florida where most buyers pay cash. Even then, with sales down in the Northeast and Midwest, I'm expecting a modest slowdown.
Cool story bro, totally off topic.
The topic at hand is UWW2MU's claim that millennials seemingly put off buying houses for 'reasons'. I'm explaining the actual reasons instead of his broad belief that we all DECIDED to wait to buy homes just for funsies. I'm pointing out how his hypothesis for low millennial home ownership is factually incorrect. Many didn't have the money to enter the market due to run away bubble prices followed by lack of gainful employment once the GR kicked in.
Of course the GR affected everyone. I never claimed otherwise. So let's knockdown that straw man. It certainly affected young people the most for the reasons I explained. Boomers and Xers may have lost money too, but those housing prices have long since recovered and surpassed their 2008 valuations. So unless they sold their properties at a loss and are now renters, or were evicted, they at least had a place to stay instead of with mom and dad. In terms of housing prices, they've been made more than whole simply by waiting a few years.
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Oh yeah? How did it change your and your friend's day-to-day? Did you buy smaller homes, put off major life decisions, etc.? The most frustrating thing about these conversations to me is that your age bracket says "hey millenials, thems the shakes, it affected us all." But it didn't. It emotionally affected you because your 401(k) balance went down. But it didn't ACTUALLY change any aspect of how you lived your life - you just temporarily felt less secure in your distant financial future. It is the functional equivalent now of a millenial looking at their 401(k) and pretending the stock market drop affects them the same as someone on a fixed income. It might make them feel less secure, but it doesn't affect their life decisions or spending in a material way.
BINGO.
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You can't get a 'starter' home in Madison for under 250k. There are a few 2 BR 1B homes around the East Side that can be had for
that number... but also, supply is very low.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1805-Baird-St-Madison-WI-53713/55407507_zpid/?
^ Nice starter home. Like ours was, no garage but at least it has AC already and is almost 50 years newer than mine. It is 300sq smaller than mine although that's because our LV is 25' x 20'.
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^ Nice starter home. Like ours was, no garage but at least it has AC already and is almost 50 years newer than mine. It is 300sq smaller than mine although that's because our LV is 25' x 20'.
But did you pay 250k? $260 sq/ft?
My wife and I bought our current home under $150 sq/ft almost a decade ago.
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But did you pay 250k? $260 sq/ft?
My wife and I bought our current home under $150 sq/ft almost a decade ago.
"Millenials only have themselves to blame, the way they spend money on homes that aren't even that nice! Then they take out these huge mortgages and they expect the government to bail them out when they go under!"
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"Millenials only have themselves to blame, the way they spend money on homes that aren't even that nice! Then they take out these huge mortgages and they expect the government to bail them out when they go under!"
aVocAdO tOAsT"
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Revisionist history. A large portion of Millennials came of age during the 2008 housing crisis. Anyone buying a home from 04-08 was buying overpriced homes... homes that new home buyers (millennials) could not afford. Afterwards was 10% unemployment and a lot of young people (millennials again) had problems finding work straight out of school.
Fewer jobs available, decreased savings, and fear that the housing bubble would happen again strongly contributed to millennials being slow to purchase homes.
This lazy narrative that millennials CHOSE to not buy into the housing market seemingly, "just because" is just flat out wrong. The generation was just beginning to build wealth and purchase homes when the pandemic struck. Why do you think the housing market was so hot? Millennials finally had the wealth to purchase homes en masse... except that a decades worth of them were all trying to purchase at once. Pair that with low numbers of new builds, and boomers and SGs staying in their homes longer, and you see the results.
Now that interest rates are through the roof for 30 year mortgages (over 7%) and housing prices have barely dipped, you're going to continue to see a lot of millennials and especially zoomers stuck at home with their parents... or they'll continue to be stuck renting.
https://www.investopedia.com/insights/how-financial-crisis-affected-millennials/
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-the-great-recession-affected-millennials-2019-8
Um, no. I didn't revise anything, nor did I pass judgement on the decision not to buy homes, nor say anything about it being "just because."
But just for the heck of it, let me point out a few things. 1. Most Millennials were prime buying age AFTER the crash of 08 and housing was extremely affordable and easy to do. The government was literally giving away $7,500 if you bought your first home. Yes, you needed a job and Millennials had the highest unemployment rate of the US population, but even that only lasted a few years and at the same time the gov was making it very easy to do. 2. Interest rates in the 2010's were always below 5%, which is extremely low. 3. Not buying WAS a choice and many more Millennials DID choose to live a more urban lifestyle that often meant renting in urbran centers instead of buying a house in the burbs like previous generations. That was often a lifestyle choice, it's not revisionist to say that.
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Oh yeah? How did it change your and your friend's day-to-day? Did you buy smaller homes, put off major life decisions, etc.? The most frustrating thing about these conversations to me is that your age bracket says "hey millenials, thems the shakes, it affected us all." But it didn't. It emotionally affected you because your 401(k) balance went down. But it didn't ACTUALLY change any aspect of how you lived your life - you just temporarily felt less secure in your distant financial future. It is the functional equivalent now of a millenial looking at their 401(k) and pretending the stock market drop affects them the same as someone on a fixed income. It might make them feel less secure, but it doesn't affect their life decisions or spending in a material way.
The common thread in this subject is an apparent desire to have immunity to market forces.
We tried that for many, many years. The long-departed Reg Q limited savings rates paid by insured financial institutions. Stable rates led to stable mortgage rates -- and were a contributor to high inflation in the 1970s (along with oil prices). When the Fed moved to bring inflation under control, we terminated the savings and loan business.
We tried to make home ownership universal beginning in the 1990s. We loosened down payment and eligibility standards for qualified residential mortgages. It worked for awhile until 2008, when "payment option" ARMs, sub-prime mortgages and other high-risk residence-secured debt blew up as secondary market conduits failed to adequately recognize and price risk. That meant the federal government bailed out the Federal National Mortgage Association and Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation, as well as Lehman Brothers an a couple of large insurance companies. That bail-out was far more expensive than the savings and loan crisis.
And yet, we seem to want more.
You guys keep focusing on income disparity and how hard it is to buy a home. Of course, buying a home is hard. It's the single largest purchase you'll ever make, regardless of income status. You have to save and manage money carefully. That's true of our ancestors going back, well, forever.
I'd strongly suggest that instead of focusing on income disparity, we focus on the percentage of Americans who are living comfortably. If we want to get bent out of shape over income disparity, take a hard look at household income, rather than individual salaries. And, as I noted earlier, the standard of living in this country is comparatively fabulous.
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The common thread in this subject is an apparent desire to have immunity to market forces.
We tried that for many, many years. The long-departed Reg Q limited savings rates paid by insured financial institutions. Stable rates led to stable mortgage rates -- and were a contributor to high inflation in the 1970s (along with oil prices). When the Fed moved to bring inflation under control, we terminated the savings and loan business.
We tried to make home ownership universal beginning in the 1990s. We loosened down payment and eligibility standards for qualified residential mortgages. It worked for awhile until 2008, when "payment option" ARMs, sub-prime mortgages and other high-risk residence-secured debt blew up as secondary market conduits failed to adequately recognize and price risk. That meant the federal government bailed out the Federal National Mortgage Association and Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation, as well as Lehman Brothers an a couple of large insurance companies. That bail-out was far more expensive than the savings and loan crisis.
And yet, we seem to want more.
You guys keep focusing on income disparity and how hard it is to buy a home. Of course, buying a home is hard. It's the single largest purchase you'll ever make, regardless of income status. You have to save and manage money carefully. That's true of our ancestors going back, well, forever.
I'd strongly suggest that instead of focusing on income disparity, we focus on the percentage of Americans who are living comfortably. If we want to get bent out of shape over income disparity, take a hard look at household income, rather than individual salaries. And, as I noted earlier, the standard of living in this country is comparatively fabulous.
Nah. My issue is that the "apparent desire to have immunity to market forces" seems to migrate with the socioeconomic circumstances of a particular segment of the American population - a fact that when pointed out, gets obsfucated with axioms like "it affects all of us" or "the standard of living in this country is comparatively fabulous."
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Points of clarification here.
I am an older millennial myself and bought my first house in 2009. That helps shape my perspective to be different than many other millennials.
I jumped into the conversation because I see a difference between the people who are complaining and making excuses and giving off the vibe that they think the world is against them and it owes them something vs those who just merely are discussing headwinds that first time homebuyers face right now.
For example, there's a difference between my friends Becky and Erin.
Becky has always made good money, loves living downtown and is married to a director at a fortune 500 company who can afford $3500 rent in the 777 building in MKE. They complained how they can't find a house that they both like and afford that isn't off the market before they can see it.
Erin, and admin assistant pays $1,100 in rent and is married to a police dispatcher. They truly couldn't afford to buy until now, but prices have gotten out of control and once again can't afford to buy in a decent neighborhood.
To Becky, I wish I could just tell her she did this to herself, she decided what she wanted and now has to deal with the consequences and no, you can no longer get your big home in the north shore that needs no updates without having to compete with others who made the same life decisions. To Erin, best I can do is empathize and tell her it's Becky's fault. ::)
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But did you pay 250k? $260 sq/ft?
My wife and I bought our current home under $150 sq/ft almost a decade ago.
It was the cheapest house on the block: $65 sq/ft in 1992
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It was the cheapest house on the block: $65 sq/ft in 1992
So no. Accounting for inflation, you paid the equivalent of $137.21/sq ft, just over half the price of the example Hards provided.
Again, no one's looking for pity. Just an acknowledgement of the current difficulties facing first time home buyers.
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Points of clarification here.
I am an older millennial myself and bought my first house in 2009. That helps shape my perspective to be different than many other millennials.
I jumped into the conversation because I see a difference between the people who are complaining and making excuses and giving off the vibe that they think the world is against them and it owes them something vs those who just merely are discussing headwinds that first time homebuyers face right now.
For example, there's a difference between my friends Becky and Erin.
Becky has always made good money, loves living downtown and is married to a director at a fortune 500 company who can afford $3500 rent in the 777 building in MKE. They complained how they can't find a house that they both like and afford that isn't off the market before they can see it.
Erin, and admin assistant pays $1,100 in rent and is married to a police dispatcher. They truly couldn't afford to buy until now, but prices have gotten out of control and once again can't afford to buy in a decent neighborhood.
To Becky, I wish I could just tell her she did this to herself, she decided what she wanted and now has to deal with the consequences and no, you can no longer get your big home in the north shore that needs no updates without having to compete with others who made the same life decisions. To Erin, best I can do is empathize and tell her it's Becky's fault. ::)
I think the frustration stems from people overestimating how many Beckys there are vs. Erins. And also the need to blame Beckys when their impact on the current situation has been minimal.
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You guys keep focusing on income disparity and how hard it is to buy a home. Of course, buying a home is hard. It's the single largest purchase you'll ever make, regardless of income status. You have to save and manage money carefully. That's true of our ancestors going back, well, forever.
I'd strongly suggest that instead of focusing on income disparity, we focus on the percentage of Americans who are living comfortably. If we want to get bent out of shape over income disparity, take a hard look at household income, rather than individual salaries. And, as I noted earlier, the standard of living in this country is comparatively fabulous.
Dgies, first of all, we're not focused on how hard it is to buy a home. We're focused on that it is harder to buy a home today than it was when your generation was entering the housing market. Can you acknowledge that?
If you are hanging your hat on "increasing % of American's living comfortably" that's not an accomplishment. That is something that has happened naturally over 1000s of years. New innovations increase the standard of living of all but doesn't address the disparity of wealth. It's akin to telling a homeless person that they are better off than George Washington was because they have access to air conditioned shelters and electricity. And bluntly, it's very easy (and very crappy) to say to ignore income disparity when you are on the topside of that income disparity. I'm fiscally conservative. I believe in Capitalism and that there is a path to upward mobility. However, I think it is important to have honest conversations about the barriers that have been erected the limit upward mobility and having conversations about the best way to remove those barriers.
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Points of clarification here.
I am an older millennial myself and bought my first house in 2009. That helps shape my perspective to be different than many other millennials.
I jumped into the conversation because I see a difference between the people who are complaining and making excuses and giving off the vibe that they think the world is against them and it owes them something vs those who just merely are discussing headwinds that first time homebuyers face right now.
For example, there's a difference between my friends Becky and Erin.
Becky has always made good money, loves living downtown and is married to a director at a fortune 500 company who can afford $3500 rent in the 777 building in MKE. They complained how they can't find a house that they both like and afford that isn't off the market before they can see it.
Erin, and admin assistant pays $1,100 in rent and is married to a police dispatcher. They truly couldn't afford to buy until now, but prices have gotten out of control and once again can't afford to buy in a decent neighborhood.
To Becky, I wish I could just tell her she did this to herself, she decided what she wanted and now has to deal with the consequences and no, you can no longer get your big home in the north shore that needs no updates without having to compete with others who made the same life decisions. To Erin, best I can do is empathize and tell her it's Becky's fault. ::)
This is your ideology creeping in. I'm certainly older than you, and bought in 07 and then upgraded in 13. I've posted articles and statistics that show how it was more difficult for our generation. YOUR personal experience and mine are irrelevant since they're anecdotal. I've mentioned many times how fortunate I've been.
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I think the frustration stems from people overestimating how many Beckys there are vs. Erins. And also the need to blame Beckys when their impact on the current situation has been minimal.
Perhaps. Can we also admit that there could be an overestimation on how many Millennials are struggling to buy a first home that truly can't?
Per US Census, in 2019 home ownership for Millennials was 59% vs 65% at the same age for Boomers. Plus, I feel like whenever there's talk about the harships people faced to make homeownership happened (ie "I bought a dated, tiny, piece of crap house when I made $36k a year in 2009 because I knew it would pay off") suddenly makes people get defensive and make sarcastic comments about avocado toast spending.
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This is your ideology creeping in. I'm certainly older than you, and bought in 07 and then upgraded in 13. I've posted articles and statistics that show how it was more difficult for our generation. YOUR personal experience and mine are irrelevant since they're anecdotal. I've mentioned many times how fortunate I've been.
I'm certainly not hiding anything, and I mentioned that to make my biases clear as I'm not trying to hide them. But there's a flip side to that, where people's decision making 10 years ago are affecting their life now and they won't recognize their own bias. I too am grateful and feel truly blessed for how fortunate I've been, but it also didn't happen by accident. I didn't trip and fall into home ownership by accident.
As I said, the headwinds and challenges exists... but it's usually (as always, not applicable in all situations) not impossible to buy a home as long as you have realistic expectations. Well, until now with the interest rates at almost 7% and housing prices not down yet. Just give that until spring though, the market with correct that.
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Perhaps. Can we also admit that there could be an overestimation on how many Millennials are struggling to buy a first home that truly can't?
I can't because I don't see that happening. I see people who believe that millennials are struggling supporting their assertions with data, I see people who don't believe it support it with anecdotes and quips about about millennials whining too much.
Per US Census, in 2019 home ownership for Millennials was 59% vs 65% at the same age for Boomers.
Or in your case, data that actually supports that it is harder to buy home now than it was before.
As I said, the headwinds and challenges exists... but it's usually (as always, not applicable in all situations) not impossible to buy a home as long as you have realistic expectations. Well, until now with the interest rates at almost 7% and housing prices not down yet. Just give that until spring though, the market with correct that.
You keep building this strawman that people are saying it's "impossible" to buy a house. What is being argued is that it is harder to buy a house now than it was before.
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Perhaps. Can we also admit that there could be an overestimation on how many Millennials are struggling to buy a first home that truly can't?
Per US Census, in 2019 home ownership for Millennials was 59% vs 65% at the same age for Boomers. Plus, I feel like whenever there's talk about the harships people faced to make homeownership happened (ie "I bought a dated, tiny, piece of crap house when I made $36k a year in 2009 because I knew it would pay off") suddenly makes people get defensive and make sarcastic comments about avocado toast spending.
You're missing the forest for the trees here, mate. I'm not saying the Millennials are STILL struggling to buy homes. I'm 40. The youngest Millennial is 26. Anyone in that age group should probably be able to afford a home BY NOW. We're old. We're not the youth anymore. We could be parents to college graduates for Christ's sake.
How do you think the Zoomers are going to do considering how rough the last couple of years have been? They're in a WORSE situation that we were! And that has been the entire point. It has become MUCH more difficult to purchase a home in the last decade and the NUMBERS BEAR THAT OUT. Home prices have sky rocketed. Interest rates are up as well. Wages have not kept up. As a result, people are required to spend much more on housing than in decades previous. This is the entire point that is being made. Can someone still buy a house in the boonies for 40k and drive an hour or more to work? Probably. No one here is suggesting that young people should be able to immediately purchase a large family home in the burbs right out of school. But even starter homes are basically out of reach for first time home buyers.
The 'starter home' I posted earlier last sold in 2015 for 70k. Now it's more than doubled seven years later. And looking at the condition, it looks more like an apartment you'd find on campus at Marquette than a home.
I've never seen anyone claim that there isn't a housing problem in this country. If you're doing that, you better show your work or don't expect others to take you seriously.
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Lotsa free land under I-794 if ya gotta tent, hey?
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Lotsa free land under I-794 if ya gotta tent, hey?
Surprised I don’t see more Christians down there trying to help the poor and homeless. Too busy watching porn, aina?
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If you are hanging your hat on "increasing % of American's living comfortably" that's not an accomplishment. That is something that has happened naturally over 1000s of years. New innovations increase the standard of living of all but doesn't address the disparity of wealth. It's akin to telling a homeless person that they are better off than George Washington was because they have access to air conditioned shelters and electricity. And bluntly, it's very easy (and very crappy) to say to ignore income disparity when you are on the topside of that income disparity. I'm fiscally conservative. I believe in Capitalism and that there is a path to upward mobility. However, I think it is important to have honest conversations about the barriers that have been erected the limit upward mobility and having conversations about the best way to remove those barriers.
And I think an additional spin here is that this isn't just important from an equity or fairness point of view. There are real economic consequences to having millenials put off buying houses, starting families, etc. As those decisions continue to be put off, folks are going to start to adapt their preferences to their abilities, and a lot of those things they are putting off won't ever happen. I think the further downstream consequences of that remain to be seen, but I suspect the current labor situation at least partially reflects that.
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TAMU
The crazy housing market has been causing havoc for a couple of years and it has been crazy. Two of my sons bought very nice properties in MKE (one duplex and one home) in 2019 and paid a very fair price. I guess I am missing how two bizarre years has altered the fate of anyone under 40 years old.
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Surprised I don’t see more Christians down there trying to help the poor and homeless. Too busy watching porn, aina?
Or pissing on the tents as they make fun of the homeless.
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You're missing the forest for the trees here, mate. I'm not saying the Millennials are STILL struggling to buy homes. I'm 40. The youngest Millennial is 26. Anyone in that age group should probably be able to afford a home BY NOW. We're old. We're not the youth anymore. We could be parents to college graduates for Christ's sake.
First... HOW DARE YOU?!
j/k, I'm going to really enjoy being middle age! 8-)
I've never seen anyone claim that there isn't a housing problem in this country. If you're doing that, you better show your work or don't expect others to take you seriously.
Second, both of you and TAMU are putting words in my mouth. I keep agreeing that there are more challenges right now, especially in the last year or two. Again, I only jumped in because despite the challenges, home ownership is still a very viable option for many people and/or will be in the coming years. Since home ownership is the largest driver of wealth, and the market will correct itself to balance things out, I'm not too concerned long term. Just wait and see what happens when boomers start moving into nursing homes and/or dying off in bigger numbers.
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TAMU
The crazy housing market has been causing havoc for a couple of years and it has been crazy. Two of my sons bought very nice properties in MKE (one duplex and one home) in 2019 and paid a very fair price. I guess I am missing how two bizarre years has altered the fate of anyone under 40 years old.
I wouldn’t buy a house in this market. Also, I’m not sure I’d sell. Buying a new place sounds like a wash at best and rent rates have skyrocketed as well.
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TAMU
The crazy housing market has been causing havoc for a couple of years and it has been crazy. Two of my sons bought very nice properties in MKE (one duplex and one home) in 2019 and paid a very fair price. I guess I am missing how two bizarre years has altered the fate of anyone under 40 years old.
You said earlier in this thread something about how important it is to not be house poor and yet can't see how the current housing market would impact first time home buyers? That's willful ignorance Goose.
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Second, both of you and TAMU are putting words in my mouth. I keep agreeing that there are more challenges right now, especially in the last year or two. Again, I only jumped in because despite the challenges, home ownership is still a very viable option for many people and/or will be in the coming years. Since home ownership is the largest driver of wealth, and the market will correct itself to balance things out, I'm not too concerned long term. Just wait and see what happens when boomers start moving into nursing homes and/or dying off in bigger numbers.
I'm not putting words into your mouth. I just keep saying that you are building a strawman that no one is arguing about. You say you agree that there are more challenges. Great. That's really all that anyone is trying to say.
On your point about waiting until the boomers start moving into nursing homes, you are right, that will help things....if you can afford to wait to buy a home for several years. The oldest boomers are 76, the youngest are 56. Average lifespan in the US is 79. So we are 3 years away from any boomers reaching the average lifespan and 23 years away from all of them. What I fear is that those buying starter houses now at bloated prices will actually have a hard time selling when they are ready to buy their forever houses because of an increased supply driving down the value of their starter homes. That's just a worry, not a thing I'm certain will happen.
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I'm not putting words into your mouth. I just keep saying that you are building a strawman that no one is arguing about. You say you agree that there are more challenges. Great. That's really all that anyone is trying to say.
On your point about waiting until the boomers start moving into nursing homes, you are right, that will help things....if you can afford to wait to buy a home for several years. The oldest boomers are 76, the youngest are 56. Average lifespan in the US is 79. So we are 3 years away from any boomers reaching the average lifespan and 23 years away from all of them. What I fear is that those buying starter houses now at bloated prices will actually have a hard time selling when they are ready to buy their forever houses because of an increased supply driving down the value of their starter homes. That's just a worry, not a thing I'm certain will happen.
My original point, is that home ownership (one of the main paths to wealth) is still obtainable despite challenges. I stated that b/c Hards went on a diatribe against dgies about how boomers got theirs and he didn't think millennials could. I disagree with that, and buying a home is a way to do that. You could have agreed with me, since we do agree on that, but instead you argued that it was tougher, which was the real straw man for my point. But that's ok, because I agree with you anyway. So we just kept circling in agreement I guess! :D
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I had lunch in New Buffalo today. Admiring all of the (formerly) million dollar summer condos. The money, the contactors, the materials for so many years went to that.
Yes, there is a lack of affordable starter homes. While these expensive condos sit empty 10 months out of the year.
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I had lunch in New Buffalo today. Admiring all of the (formerly) million dollar summer condos. The money, the contactors, the materials for so many years went to that.
Yes, there is a lack of affordable starter homes. While these expensive condos sit empty 10 months out of the year.
When you take into consideration land prices, labor costs, permit costs, material costs, most builders cannot afford to build "starter homes"
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I have read that from time to time. And then I read about innovative new techniques, materials, layouts that allow them to.
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When you take into consideration land prices, labor costs, permit costs, material costs, most builders cannot afford to build "starter homes"
And very few municipal governing boards, especially in decent suburbs, will allow them. You'd be hard-pressed to find any towns allowing new construction, single-family homes on anything less than 10,000 square feet. Many, it not most, require a quarter-acre.
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TAMU
I would recommend to ANY new, first time home buyer to wait things out. This housing market defies logic and I believe when the dust settles home prices are going to retreat a great deal. My point on my last post was simple, I do not have any idea why a 30 something year old did not purchase a home prior to the insane run up over the past two years. I get the struggles today, but in 2018-19 buying a home was very affordable.
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TAMU
I would recommend to ANY new, first time home buyer to wait things out. This housing market defies logic and I believe when the dust settles home prices are going to retreat a great deal. My point on my last post was simple, I do not have any idea why a 30 something year old did not purchase a home prior to the insane run up over the past two years. I get the struggles today, but in 2018-19 buying a home was very affordable.
right on gooser! why anyone would not have locked into a $300-500k mortgage at 2.something % is beyond me as well. my youngest son bought a small "fixer up'er" lake house in 2019, remodeled it a little bit and is now renting it out while moving into his fiance' condo, talk about tag teaming it
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TAMU
I would recommend to ANY new, first time home buyer to wait things out. This housing market defies logic and I believe when the dust settles home prices are going to retreat a great deal. My point on my last post was simple, I do not have any idea why a 30 something year old did not purchase a home prior to the insane run up over the past two years. I get the struggles today, but in 2018-19 buying a home was very affordable.
OK, let's say you're right that somebody should have bought in 2018-19. But maybe that somebody: simply didn't have the money for a down payment then; or was trying to build a margin of safety in his/her cash emergency fund before buying a house; or that the person faced an adverse employment situation; or was trying to pay off the last of her/his student loans before buying a house; or was shoring up his/her credit score; or any number of other things.
Regardless of why a family didn't buy a house in 2018-19, your analysis doesn't help them today. And that's what the issue is here. Nobody can go back in time, not even Al! (Though Al would have punched a house-seller in the face until he or she cut the price by 50%.)
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TAMU
I would recommend to ANY new, first time home buyer to wait things out. This housing market defies logic and I believe when the dust settles home prices are going to retreat a great deal. My point on my last post was simple, I do not have any idea why a 30 something year old did not purchase a home prior to the insane run up over the past two years. I get the struggles today, but in 2018-19 buying a home was very affordable.
Because a good chunk of the 30 somethings couldn't afford affordable houses in 2018-2019. A good but smaller chunk today still couldn't afford a home at 2018-2019 prices.
I'm banking on you being correct about the housing prices retreating. Hope we're right.
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Because a good chunk of the 30 somethings couldn't afford affordable houses in 2018-2019. A good but smaller chunk today still couldn't afford a home at 2018-2019 prices.
I'm banking on you being correct about the housing prices retreating. Hope we're right.
Ask your dad to buy you a house
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right on gooser! why anyone would not have locked into a $300-500k mortgage at 2.something % is beyond me as well. my youngest son bought a small "fixer up'er" lake house in 2019, remodeled it a little bit and is now renting it out while moving into his fiance' condo, talk about tag teaming it
Bluntly, people like your son are part of the problem. Not that there is anything wrong with what he's doing, but there's been a rush on people buying starter homes and turning them into secondary (or primary) sources of income. This is anecdotal but I would estimate about 8 houses in every 10 sold in my old neighborhood was immediately back on the market as a rental property.
Again, to be clear, what your son did was smart and perfectly legal. But it does exacerbate the housing shortage.
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First... HOW DARE YOU?!
j/k, I'm going to really enjoy being middle age! 8-)
Second, both of you and TAMU are putting words in my mouth. I keep agreeing that there are more challenges right now, especially in the last year or two. Again, I only jumped in because despite the challenges, home ownership is still a very viable option for many people and/or will be in the coming years. Since home ownership is the largest driver of wealth, and the market will correct itself to balance things out, I'm not too concerned long term. Just wait and see what happens when boomers start moving into nursing homes and/or dying off in bigger numbers.
All of that I 100% agree with. I think the real thing to think about is how many boomers have two homes. Eventually those will flood the market... and we will be able to purchase vacation homes in our 70s! 8-)
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82
I find it hard to believe that anyone that is a college grad and between the ages of 30-38 could not afford a home pre pandemic. Of course, there are exceptions, but many did not buy for non money related reasons imo.
I believe this the housing boom of the past two years is going to leave a lot of folks with buyers remorse if they bought during the run up. Imo, these prices are extremely out of line for the vast majority folks, not just young people. There is no way in hell that I would be home buyer at these prices, even if I were flush with money.
They say you buy a home to live in and not an investment and I agree with that. That being said, it is the biggest investment or purchase most of us ever make and I am very thankful I was not a buyer over past two years.
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My original point, is that home ownership (one of the main paths to wealth) is still obtainable despite challenges. I stated that b/c Hards went on a diatribe against dgies about how boomers got theirs and he didn't think millennials could. I disagree with that, and buying a home is a way to do that. You could have agreed with me, since we do agree on that, but instead you argued that it was tougher, which was the real straw man for my point. But that's ok, because I agree with you anyway. So we just kept circling in agreement I guess! :D
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I've argued for a long time that the boomers are the 'got mine screw you' generation that have had it easier than any generation that exists.
I never said housing wasn't attainable. I have plenty of friends who own homes (I'm old). But housing prices are climbing like never before.... and many single family homes are being bought as investment property instead of by families. This also drives prices an concentrates wealth and future wealth making it even more difficult for younger people.
IMO, Zoomers will have it harder than anyone in the housing market.
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When you take into consideration land prices, labor costs, permit costs, material costs, most builders cannot afford to build "starter homes"
100%
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UWW
I think you are correct on boomers eventually dying off, but with replacement costs to downsize or rent I think many are going to hang on longer to their homes. We are a stage in our life that we have discussed when we should downsize and honestly I can live in our house for less money than renting an apartment. This boomer is going to be hanging on much longer than I expected us to.
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UWW
I think you are correct on boomers eventually dying off, but with replacement costs to downsize or rent I think many are going to hang on longer to their homes. We are a stage in our life that we have discussed when we should downsize and honestly I can live in our house for less money than renting an apartment. This boomer is going to be hanging on much longer than I expected us to.
Plus in home health care is much better than a nursing home. I plan for that when the time comes for my parents. They're talking about willing my brother and myself everything, but I've told them to hold on to the money and expect their health care costs to only rise.
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Hards
My Dad had 24-7 live in health care his last four months of life and I believe he willed himself to die because of the crazy cost and that was 11 years ago. The cost was insane.
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Hards
My Dad had 24-7 live in health care his last four months of life and I believe he willed himself to die because of the crazy cost and that was 11 years ago. The cost was insane.
I plan on holding on forever and bleeding my family dry
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Hards
My Dad had 24-7 live in health care his last four months of life and I believe he willed himself to die because of the crazy cost and that was 11 years ago. The cost was insane.
I mentioned my grandma was in an assisted living/medical care facility in Naples when the Hurricane was on. For what she pays each month, she could be living in a ritzy high floor unit in the plush part of Naples beachfront.
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Bluntly, people like your son are part of the problem. Not that there is anything wrong with what he's doing, but there's been a rush on people buying starter homes and turning them into secondary (or primary) sources of income. This is anecdotal but I would estimate about 8 houses in every 10 sold in my old neighborhood was immediately back on the market as a rental property.
Again, to be clear, what your son did was smart and perfectly legal. But it does exacerbate the housing shortage.
on the one hand, tamu, you are right. however, he did put something else of value out on the market-an affordable house on a lake that someone wouldn't have otherwise been able to enjoy. win-win.
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Wags
The cost is unreal. I believe my Dad thought it was crazy to spend that much money to keep a 90 year old man alive and he lost his will to live. Fortunately he could afford it, but he felt it was burning money.
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I plan on holding on forever and bleeding my family dry
When my hospice nurse says “No more ice chips, you’re broke”, I’ll smile and bid everyone adieu.
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82
I find it hard to believe that anyone that is a college grad and between the ages of 30-38 could not afford a home pre pandemic. Of course, there are exceptions, but many did not buy for non money related reasons imo.
I believe this the housing boom of the past two years is going to leave a lot of folks with buyers remorse if they bought during the run up. Imo, these prices are extremely out of line for the vast majority folks, not just young people. There is no way in hell that I would be home buyer at these prices, even if I were flush with money.
They say you buy a home to live in and not an investment and I agree with that. That being said, it is the biggest investment or purchase most of us ever make and I am very thankful I was not a buyer over past two years.
OK.
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Bubble up guy sez U.S. economy is "strong as hell," Hoo new, hey?
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Is the job market cooling down? Not in Charlotte: ‘We don’t even see a yellow light.’
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article266919631.html#storylink=cpy
Construction is wrapping up, social media is abuzz and Peter Han is pretty much set to open the newest location for international grocer Super G Mart in Pineville. There’s just one thing missing from a potential grand opening: the employees to staff it.
“We’re still very far from meeting our hiring needs,” said Han, Super G Mart’s vice president of business development.
He needs 80 full- and part-time employees to run the 108,000-square-foot international grocery store. Since announcing the new location in April, the store delayed its opening multiple times, due to COVID-related construction supply shortages. But now, Han said he can’t set the opening date until he finds enough workers.
“Where are they?” he asked. “It’s concerning.”
For the last several months, a number of factors have hinted at a an economic slowdown that could impact hiring options. Inflation is putting pressure on American’s pocketbooks, despite officials’ attempts to slow its pace. A growing number of economists warn the U.S. will see a recession within the year.
But you wouldn’t know it looking at Charlotte’s job market.
Business owners and hiring managers say nothing has changed since the beginning of this year, when firms across several industries, from manufacturers to accounting companies, were still riding the high of a post-COVID economic boom.
So employers of all kinds are still scrambling for staff, and many candidates have their pick of offers. Even sectors that were expected to show signs of cooling, like construction, still have long lists of job vacancies.
“Everybody is just as busy as they were six months ago or a year ago,” said Bill Sofio, who runs the staffing firm Specialized Recruiting Group in Charlotte. “We don’t even see a yellow light.”
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Record profits in the third quarter. Growth adjusted up to 2.9%
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Record profits in the third quarter. Growth adjusted up to 2.9%
And early estimates suggest an even stronger 4th quarter.
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This is a great thread. A few comments:
Affordable housing: In most of the developed world, a starter home is a 600 sq foot flat in a high rise in a city close to a metro station or walking distance from where you work. This actually works a lot better than the American sprawl model IMHO.
College Costs: An embarrassment. What's amazing to me is that we still have a shortage of plumbers, electricians, welders, and other skilled trades when the costs of attaining those skills are minimal and the earnings in year 5 onwards are more than the average college graduate.
Status vs. previous generation: My parents were good enough to give us kids a head start by paying for undergrad. I committed to my kids I'll do the same and I am. Some will call this privilege. I agree if it's abused. I've worked my tail off to not abuse it as a way of showing respect to my parents for the amazing gift they gave me 30+ years ago. I hope my kids take the message or the gift the same way. I continually tell them that not everyone is so lucky and hope they understand and respect the situation.
Boomers: took us a long way. My "Gen X" generation still seems to be outnumbered. The Millenials are louder and we need to see what they do with their power when they get it. I fear that a lot have had it too easy and don't have enough international experience to see the long term effects of socialism. They should all go to France and and understand that for most people it is essentially illegal to earn more than EUR40,000/year because to do that would require working multiple jobs or overtime and that is not allowed. Only when you live it and see it can you understand if that is a way of life to impose on a society.
Getting ahead: All starts with saving and avoiding debt. I saved 25% of my first paycheck and at least that much of every one after. I got into the debt cycle for a while but have been completely debt free now for 5-6 years. It's powerful.
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You're so close.