MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Coleman on February 07, 2010, 01:16:55 AM
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The Law School building is nearly done, construction is underway for the new engineering facility and in the last decade we have had a new library, on-campus arena, dental school, administration building and have rehabbed a dorm. What should MU do to campus next? I feel like this needs to be a continual process, and that Fr. Wild shouldn't rest on his laurels (he's done an amazing job). MU needs to constantly be looking for ways to improve and move up in national rankings, as long as the funding can be secured. Feel free to vote other and comment.
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Priority #1 has to be a new rec center. Ours is outdated and cramped.
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I toured campus 18 months ago when my son was looking at schools. I thought the campus looked great in general, and stacks up nicely with a lot of similar schools, but I thought the science facilities seemed outdated. And yeah, as the poster above mentioned, the rec facilities seemed cramped. (Which is funny because when I went there, they seemed so good!)
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I know there are people with actual pull on campus who, if given free reign to knock down 1 building, would get rid of Lalumiere first.
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Answer: NOTHING!
All these buildings cost $$$ to build and $$$ to maintain. Tuition increases are outstripping inflation by several factors (5.6% this year versus the CPI which is basically flat) .. as I said in the other thread: the long term universe of people who can afford MU (and all private colleges) is decreasing every year.
MU's physical plant is superlative already. Sure, you can find spots that aren't palaces, but the idea that MU needs to "keep up" with other schools is self-fulfilling balderdash, destructive in the long run.
MU needs to do everything in its power to cost-contain or it will fail its mission in the decades ahead.
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The business students always need new stuff.
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Answer: NOTHING!
All these buildings cost $$$ to build and $$$ to maintain. Tuition increases are outstripping inflation by several factors (5.6% this year versus the CPI which is basically flat) .. as I said in the other thread: the long term universe of people who can afford MU (and all private colleges) is decreasing every year.
MU's physical plant is superlative already. Sure, you can find spots that aren't palaces, but the idea that MU needs to "keep up" with other schools is self-fulfilling balderdash, destructive in the long run.
MU needs to do everything in its power to cost-contain or it will fail its mission in the decades ahead.
That is actually a great point, in which case maybe MU needs to look into multi-purpose buildings that can create (some) revenue.
I don't really think a new rec center is needed, but if a new facility could be rented/leased to other organizations when students aren't using it, it might be worth it.
Also, classrooms are really only used a portion of the day. I wonder if an upgraded theater style auditorium could be rented out to businesses for conferences and meetings. There are hotels right down the street, so it's not out of the realm of possibility.
I know we don't necessarily want to flood MU's campus with a bunch of business travelers when conferences are in town, but MU might need to find creative ways to pay for it's upgraded facilities (other than just raising tuition).
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I 'love' the "we need a new rec center" people. I heard that throughout the time I was there (03-08). People would point to the new MSOE facilities downtown.
I really never understood it. Is your workout experience better if you run on a treadmill in a more pretty building versus a less pretty building?
Topper is correct ... if Marquette, or any other private university really want to think about the future, they need to think about cost containment. Not, "How many pretty buildings and new self-serving bureaucracies can we create on students' dimes?"
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Taking Hilltop's post, I concur.
However, if this was a wish list...
Wehr Life Sciences. The labs (when I was there) dated themselves.
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Taking Hilltop's post, I concur.
However, if this was a wish list...
Wehr Life Sciences. The labs (when I was there) dated themselves.
Its worth mentioning that there's been multiple labs getting equipment refreshes or even complete remodels recently.
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Answer: NOTHING!
All these buildings cost $$$ to build and $$$ to maintain. Tuition increases are outstripping inflation by several factors (5.6% this year versus the CPI which is basically flat) .. as I said in the other thread: the long term universe of people who can afford MU (and all private colleges) is decreasing every year.
MU's physical plant is superlative already. Sure, you can find spots that aren't palaces, but the idea that MU needs to "keep up" with other schools is self-fulfilling balderdash, destructive in the long run.
MU needs to do everything in its power to cost-contain or it will fail its mission in the decades ahead.
It would be silly to knock down Lalumier. Yeah, it is ugly, but it is completely functional given the classes that are there. My concern about the science labs is that those need to be kept up to date. To hear that they are getting rehabbed is a good thing.
But hilltopper, to be competitive, private schools have to keep up with their physical plant. The schools that don't are the ones that struggle.
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McCormick is an ill conceived toilet and as well as an eyesore.
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It would be silly to knock down Lalumier. Yeah, it is ugly, but it is completely functional given the classes that are there. My concern about the science labs is that those need to be kept up to date. To hear that they are getting rehabbed is a good thing.
But hilltopper, to be competitive, private schools have to keep up with their physical plant. The schools that don't are the ones that struggle.
I think part of the "problem" is that the new buildings on campus seem to consistently be non-academic buildings (like the new admin building or the student un-friendly AMU) instead of pure academic buildings, like the ancient science facilities. The Straz business building is just about the opposite of what you'd probably like for the college whose alumns are among the highest potential donors to the university (cf the new LS building).
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I think part of the "problem" is that the new buildings on campus seem to consistently be non-academic buildings (like the new admin building or the student un-friendly AMU) instead of pure academic buildings, like the ancient science facilities. The Straz business building is just about the opposite of what you'd probably like for the college whose alumns are among the highest potential donors to the university (cf the new LS building).
The Law School, Dental School and engineering buildings are non-academic?
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The Straz business building is just about the opposite of what you'd probably like for the college whose alumns are among the highest potential donors to the university (cf the new LS building).
+1.
I think that the best ways to raise a school's prestige and popularity are via the professional schools/graduate schools and athletics. Undergrad quality and popularity seems to go as those go. That being said, the Law School was a definite need - there's no reason a law school that can essentially corner a mid-major market should be ranked as low as MU. Ditto the dental school, as its the only one in WI. Next up should be something to attract MBA candidates. It would be a close race with the science buildings, but since MU has pretty much acquiesced to U-dub and MCW in not keeping pace as a research institution, I think upgrading the MBA program can only be a good thing for MU and mke as a whole.
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This conversation reminds me of a NewsHour segment .. I'll get the exact facts wrong, but close enough. The topic was a public college in New Jersey .. they interviewed kids that were deep in debt, leaving the school to go to a cheaper community college, or just quitting completely .. then interviewed the provost. They asked why did the school spend $100m+ for 3 buildings in the past couple years, especially a $40m rec center.
The lady responds, well, these kids need a place to unwind and work out, relax, and get fit.
Meanwhile, those same kids, the customers, are struggling and failing to foot the bill for all these amenities. Ginormous disconnect.
Marquette would do just fine with the buildings it has right now.
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Curious .. maybe the collective knowledge of Scoop can help with a timeline. It seems as if the last 10-20 years, MU has had an explosion of building. How does that compare to prior decades? Help fill in the blanks:
2000-2010 - Al Center, Law School, Library, Zilber, Dental School, McCabe Residence Hall, Engineering building
90s - New union, Cudahy Hall
80s - ??
70s - ??
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As a recent graduate (and tuition payer with about currently 30k worth of debt) I can sympathize with those stressing the need for cost containment. MU should do everything it can to give financial aid to deserving students. But the fact of the matter is most building projects come from outside fundraising or donation (a la Eckstein Hall). Maintenance might not, but the fact of the matter is old and crumbling buildings have high maintenance costs too.
However, most of you are wrong in your assessments of the current buildings. Lalumiere is an absolute disgrace, and I don't just mean the honeycomb windows. Throughout my tenure at MU (04-08), There were multiple times the roofs leaked in massive amounts of water (usually during the spring melt) into classrooms and hallways, and more than once did class have to be cancelled. Its also an eyesore and the first thing people see from the highway.
Life sciences isn't bad, but compared to other Jesuit schools similar to us (SLU and Loyola Chicago come to mind) who have just got brand new state of the art research facilities, I have a hard time believing anyone wanting to study biology or premed would choose us over them. If you don't believe me, just compare via pictures online of the various websites. Physics and Chemistry buildings are not quite so bad, but will probably need major updating soon.
And as a former resident of McCormick Hall (04-05), I can tell you the place is an absolute pit. As much as I lovingly remember my times there with my buddies, it is disgusting and its no wonder campus tours for prospective students usually skip over it or just visit the cafeteria. Not to mention its in the heart of campus next to the AMU. The building there should be a gem, and McCormick is anything but.
UPDATE:
THE MICHAEL R. AND MARILYN C. QUINLAN
LIFE SCIENCES EDUCATION AND RESEARCH CENTER
http://www.luc.edu/biology/quinlan.shtml
EDWARD A. DOISY RESEARCH CENTER
http://www.slu.edu/x30261.xml
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The Law School, Dental School and engineering buildings are non-academic?
Did I say they were? I said new buildings are consistently non-academic. I didn't say exclusively. In fact I specifically positively referenced the LS building.
Edit: As an example, in the five years I spent at Marquette (03-08), the University:
Opened a library without books, Raynor (yes, I love Raynor too), finished an addition to Campus Town(e) and finished and opened the Al, and demolished the 1212 building to break ground for an administrative building (because the 3-4 already existing on campus weren't enough). These are all worthy and great projects (in their own rights). But the only academic building was the beginning of the Law School.
If the school is going to build new buildings (apart from whether or not it should), I'd hope it would devote as much fund raising efforts to academic buildings as non-academic. (Or, hell, residential halls.)
+1 to everything MUBurrow posted.
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Answer: NOTHING!
All these buildings cost $$$ to build and $$$ to maintain. Tuition increases are outstripping inflation by several factors (5.6% this year versus the CPI which is basically flat) .. as I said in the other thread: the long term universe of people who can afford MU (and all private colleges) is decreasing every year.
MU's physical plant is superlative already. Sure, you can find spots that aren't palaces, but the idea that MU needs to "keep up" with other schools is self-fulfilling balderdash, destructive in the long run.
MU needs to do everything in its power to cost-contain or it will fail its mission in the decades ahead.
New ride? Very cool.
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New ride? Very cool.
???
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and demolished the 1212 building to break ground for an administrative building (because the 3-4 already existing on campus weren't enough).
But that was the point of the new building: consolidating every administrative function into one building.
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This conversation reminds me of a NewsHour segment .. I'll get the exact facts wrong, but close enough. The topic was a public college in New Jersey .. they interviewed kids that were deep in debt, leaving the school to go to a cheaper community college, or just quitting completely .. then interviewed the provost. They asked why did the school spend $100m+ for 3 buildings in the past couple years, especially a $40m rec center.
The lady responds, well, these kids need a place to unwind and work out, relax, and get fit.
Meanwhile, those same kids, the customers, are struggling and failing to foot the bill for all these amenities. Ginormous disconnect.
Marquette would do just fine with the buildings it has right now.
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Curious .. maybe the collective knowledge of Scoop can help with a timeline. It seems as if the last 10-20 years, MU has had an explosion of building. How does that compare to prior decades? Help fill in the blanks:
2000-2010 - Al Center, Law School, Library, Zilber, Dental School, McCabe Residence Hall, Engineering building
90s - New union, Cudahy Hall
80s - ??
70s - ??
1990s was the whole Campus Towne building too.
BTW, I will point out something else. These buildings are built largely through donations. Donations aren't always fungible.
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Did I say they were? I said new buildings are consistently non-academic.
But how can you call it "consistently non-academic" when three of them are large, academic buildings? Versus two (?) non-academic buildings in the last ten years.
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But that was the point of the new building: consolidating every administrative function into one building.
I was being sarcasting about not enough existing administrative buildings ...
The administration already has the 707, AMU, Holthusen, 500 North, O'Hara and Marquette Hall for almost completely administrative functions. Add on to that Coughlin and the Academic Support Facility for faculty support. (BTW, we're making some faculty walk to 17th and Wells for their offices but Res Life must be on 12th and Wisc?) And then other (again, purely administrative) offices in Carpenter, Straz and Campus Towne (Bursar, Les Aspin).
Marquette could have put a new College of Business building or even the new Law School right on Wisconsin Avenue. Instead, the Law School is going to face the Interchange and the Advance and PR groups get a centralized campus location.
How about the faculty and administration of the College of Communication ask to swap with the Office of Res Life? Who should get an 80 (or whatever) year building and who should get a brand new building? The Bursar Office or an actual academic department?
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But how can you call it "consistently non-academic" when three of them are large, academic buildings? Versus two (?) non-academic buildings in the last ten years.
Huh? You mean the four non academic and the one academic I cited? That's how it's consistently non-academic.
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Huh? You mean the four non academic and the one academic I cited? That's how it's consistently non-academic.
The Library is an academic building. That would mean four either recently completed or in the works.
Campus Towne was by and large 1990s. The Al and administrative building were the two I cited.
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???
Eyed the "Ahoya" plates on southbound I-43 last night. Figured it was you, but the wheels have improved.
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I was being sarcasting about not enough existing administrative buildings ...
The administration already has the 707, AMU, Holthusen, 500 North, O'Hara and Marquette Hall for almost completely administrative functions. Add on to that Coughlin and the Academic Support Facility for faculty support. (BTW, we're making some faculty walk to 17th and Wells for their offices but Res Life must be on 12th and Wisc?) And then other (again, purely administrative) offices in Carpenter, Straz and Campus Towne (Bursar, Les Aspin).
Marquette could have put a new College of Business building or even the new Law School right on Wisconsin Avenue. Instead, the Law School is going to face the Interchange and the Advance and PR groups get a centralized campus location.
How about the faculty and administration of the College of Communication ask to swap with the Office of Res Life? Who should get an 80 (or whatever) year building and who should get a brand new building? The Bursar Office or an actual academic department?
I hear you, but your facts are a little dated. I believe Bursar is moving to the new building and Marquette Hall has lost most of its administrative functions (Admissions, College of Arts and Sciences). Word on the street is that O'Hara Hall is coming down as well.
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Eyed the "Ahoya" plates on southbound I-43 last night. Figured it was you, but the wheels have improved.
Ah. Actually, no. The Ahoya plates have been on the FX from the beginning. Love that car.
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Next time I'll pull up next to you and flash a pic of Crean and Crimson. Then, you'll know it's me. ;D
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First and foremost, topper is right. Cost containment needs to be stressed. While a lot of the new construction is donation-exclusive, the cost thereafter is not.
As for warrior07, Zilber Hall, the new administration building is easily the best idea I've ever heard of. Consolidating the 9-10 locations around campus into one easy location is great. Having to walk across campus to fill out a document only to walk across campus to pay for said document is ridiculous. Not too mention the Admissions office inside Marquette Hall was a disgrace for incoming students. Have you tried getting in and out of that building during passing periods?
All of the vacated locations will be reincorporated into their locations. Carpenter is going to have a new computer lab/study lounge instead of Res Life. The Bursar's Office is going to be transformed into a revenue generating storefront for Campus Town. O'Hara Hall is to be removed for green space. 707 is for the Office of Professional Studies, a department that could use some more interest from the University for a downtown campus. Holthusen is gone. Marquette Hall is being phased out of all administrative offices and is said to be renovated into classrooms.
Also, having Eckstein Hall face the Interchange is smart. We have a beautiful glass improvement in the middle of the premiere interchange in the state. Thousands of people a day will stare at Eckstein, and it looks damn good.
The Engineering Discovery Center will also be a gem at 16th and Wisconsin. This is why I voted for McCormick to be torn down. Hagerty Hall is to be transfromed for use to the Science Departments.
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You have some good points. But I'm not convinced. First, I think that location on Wisconsin Ave. is prime territory for a much more serious project. A new College of Biz. Maybe a new College of Comm. There's no reason that Marquette can't tear down the crap on Wells on either side of 12th street that it now owns and put a building there.
How often do students visit the offices you've mentioned? Once a month? Does it make sense to have a really nice office where students can (maybe ironically...) pay their bills once a month or a building where they'll have classes 5 times a week? I don't argue that having all the bureaucracies in one location is a bad potential idea.
But it is silly and selfish for the administrative bureaucracies to use prime real estate and limited donations for a building students will use much less than a building they study and take classes in.
IMO, the "best idea I've ever heard of" would be to ditch that dinosaur with the one elevator Straz and put up a new prominent COB right on Wisconsin Avenue that students, locals and visitors can drive by and easily access.
That being said, it's nice to see that O'Hara will be torn down ... with the LS up there is almost no green space on campus now. Is the auditorium attached to Holthusen being taken down as well?
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Why do you think that the most prominent academic buildings should be on Wisconsin Avenue?
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Answer: NOTHING!
All these buildings cost $$$ to build and $$$ to maintain. Tuition increases are outstripping inflation by several factors (5.6% this year versus the CPI which is basically flat) .. as I said in the other thread: the long term universe of people who can afford MU (and all private colleges) is decreasing every year.
MU's physical plant is superlative already. Sure, you can find spots that aren't palaces, but the idea that MU needs to "keep up" with other schools is self-fulfilling balderdash, destructive in the long run.
MU needs to do everything in its power to cost-contain or it will fail its mission in the decades ahead.
I'm as fiscally conservative as they come, but disagree on this approach. If MU is to continue to attract good students, they need to have quality infrastructure, quality professors, etc. If we are lagging because of facilities, why would someone want to pay the tuition we are asking when the student won't get what they can at another school.
MU should be spending money to update those facilities that need updating (like they did with the Engineering, Dental and Law schools). Those three facilities were inadequate and we spent to improve them and make them modern.
If that has to be done with the Chemisty, Physics, and Life Sciences buildings, then MU should be investing there as well.
Have to spend money to make money. If we hunker down then we're ceding a good part of the university's future to attract students.
In years past, the notion of hunkering down is why we no longer have a Medical school or a football team. We would be in a much better place right now if we had both.
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Chicos, those are very good points. I went to MU in the late 80s...probably at the University's low point. The facilities were pretty spartan back then. When I was leaving is when they opened up AMU with Cudahy soon to follow. That sparked the turn around that has continued to this day.
As long as those buildings are built with donated money, it will have no real affect on student tuition.
I'm also going to agree with you big time on the medical school. Even if it was located where MCW is now, it would be better if it were Marquette Medical School.
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[I'm as fiscally conservative as they come, but disagree on this approach. If MU is to continue to attract good students, they need to have quality infrastructure, quality professors, etc. If we are lagging because of facilities, why would someone want to pay the tuition we are asking when the student won't get what they can at another school.]
MU should be spending money to update those facilities that need updating (like they did with the Engineering, Dental and Law schools). Those three facilities were inadequate and we spent to improve them and make them modern.
If that has to be done with the Chemisty, Physics, and Life Sciences buildings, then MU should be investing there as well.
Have to spend money to make money. If we hunker down then we're ceding a good part of the university's future to attract students.
In years past, the notion of hunkering down is why we no longer have a Medical school or a football team. We would be in a much better place right now if we had both.
MU's endowment needs to be increased. The school is what it is, in spite of it's pathetic bank account.
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If that has to be done with the Chemisty, Physics, and Life Sciences buildings, then MU should be investing there as well.
Three entire floors of the Chemistry building have been gutted down to the studs and remodeled.
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I hear you, but your facts are a little dated. I believe Bursar is moving to the new building and Marquette Hall has lost most of its administrative functions (Admissions, College of Arts and Sciences). Word on the street is that O'Hara Hall is coming down as well.
A&S is still in Marquette Hall, but the Registrar and Admissions are both already out. The Bursar is in Zilber, and O'Hara Hall currently sits empty, as does 500 North. About half of the offices in 707 and Holthusen have moved to Zilber as well.
I *THINK* the plan is to move everything out of Academic Support and the Helfaer building and relocate Child Care as well. Not to Zilber, mind you, but somewhere else, because those 3 buildings are decrepit.
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If MU is to continue to attract good students, they need to have quality infrastructure, quality professors, etc.
The only problem with that concept is that .. at no point will anyone say "ok, we have enough" and that leads to constant spending, often for spending's sake because, well for the love of god, we've got to improve. If you're not first, you're last. -- This isn't an electronics company, in desperate need to innovate every quarter.
I imagine a MU Trustee meeting, where someone plops down a great plan with the premise it will improve quality of such and such. Well, improve quality, we've got to improve quality. Better is better. We've got to improve always. Plan approved!
Bottom line, all this improvement is just super. Super-d-duper. Unfortunately, the product is going to get so super, so expensive, in the long run, no one will be able to afford the product.
Then the mission has failed.
(Another note .. aggressive cost containment, even at the detriment of the perception of prestige, I believe, would NOT give MU fewer applicants. MU would receive more applicants, since the truth is, the prestige level is fine as it is .. if they were a low(er) cost leader, the world would beat a path to their doorstep in this age of outrageous tuition levels.)
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A&S is still in Marquette Hall, but the Registrar and Admissions are both already out. The Bursar is in Zilber, and O'Hara Hall currently sits empty, as does 500 North. About half of the offices in 707 and Holthusen have moved to Zilber as well.
I *THINK* the plan is to move everything out of Academic Support and the Helfaer building and relocate Child Care as well. Not to Zilber, mind you, but somewhere else, because those 3 buildings are decrepit.
I heard 500 building is for child care because of the huge basement and buzz-in.locked doors.
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The only problem with that concept is that .. at no point will anyone say "ok, we have enough" and that leads to constant spending, often for spending's sake because, well for the love of god, we've got to improve. If you're not first, you're last. -- This isn't an electronics company, in desperate need to innovate every quarter.
I imagine a MU Trustee meeting, where someone plops down a great plan with the premise it will improve quality of such and such. Well, improve quality, we've got to improve quality. Better is better. We've got to improve always. Plan approved!
Bottom line, all this improvement is just super. Super-d-duper. Unfortunately, the product is going to get so super, so expensive, in the long run, no one will be able to afford the product.
Then the mission has failed.
I don't see that for a long time. Prices have continued to go up in a down economy. Yet, numbers are setting records. I think MU is more likely to fail if it relies on the "quality" of education compared investing in huge, beautiful buildings that keep Marquette relevant.
Of course, a lot of people won't be able to afford it but Marquette really has 2 options. Be a high standard school with new buildings and be expensive as hell. Or they can be a school that slowly becomes obsolete but yet remain affordable for everyone. I think they are making the right choice.
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You have some good points. But I'm not convinced. First, I think that location on Wisconsin Ave. is prime territory for a much more serious project. A new College of Biz. Maybe a new College of Comm. There's no reason that Marquette can't tear down the crap on Wells on either side of 12th street that it now owns and put a building there.
How often do students visit the offices you've mentioned? Once a month? Does it make sense to have a really nice office where students can (maybe ironically...) pay their bills once a month or a building where they'll have classes 5 times a week? I don't argue that having all the bureaucracies in one location is a bad potential idea.
But it is silly and selfish for the administrative bureaucracies to use prime real estate and limited donations for a building students will use much less than a building they study and take classes in.
IMO, the "best idea I've ever heard of" would be to ditch that dinosaur with the one elevator Straz and put up a new prominent COB right on Wisconsin Avenue that students, locals and visitors can drive by and easily access.
That being said, it's nice to see that O'Hara will be torn down ... with the LS up there is almost no green space on campus now. Is the auditorium attached to Holthusen being taken down as well?
Not a COB grad, are you?
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Another note .. aggressive cost containment, even at the detriment of the perception of prestige, I believe, would NOT give MU fewer applicants. MU would receive more applicants, since the truth is, the prestige level is fine as it is .. if they were a low(er) cost leader, the world would beat a path to their doorstep in this age of outrageous tuition levels.)
Its not a quantity number of applicants issue, its a quality issue. The true way for Marquette to fail the the mission is for the return on an MU diploma to go down. Love it or hate it, in this sense it should be run like a fortune 500 company. The other schools are going to continue to improve, and if you aren't getting better, you're getting worse. Prestige really isn't fine where it is. I mean, I guess I know law better than any other field, but its a nice example because there are explicit rankings that applicants all the way to firms actually follow. With the exception of an aging Marquette mafia firmly established in mke, a MU law degree doesn't travel like it used to. The overall return on it, compared to a law degree from other schools, has gone down.
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I don't see that for a long time. Prices have continued to go up in a down economy. Yet, numbers are setting records.
Depends what your definition of a long time is. If it's 10-20 years, you are right. 20-30-40 years, I believe what I said. When your product price increases outstrip inflation by large factors, outstrip income growth .. every single day that clicks by, the universe of your customers gets smaller.
Indeed, as you write, application numbers go up every year. I guarantee they will continue to rise, perhaps forever (longer than my previous time horizon) because the internet has made it increasingly easier to apply, and schools want big numbers. Parents want to catch a lot of fish in the net, see what financial deals each schools give. That's the new game.
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Its not a quantity number of applicants issue, its a quality issue. The true way for Marquette to fail the the mission is for the return on an MU diploma to go down. Love it or hate it, in this sense it should be run like a fortune 500 company. The other schools are going to continue to improve, and if you aren't getting better, you're getting worse. Prestige really isn't fine where it is.
You should be on MU's board of Trustees. You'd fit right in.
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and you would fit well on UW - River Falls'
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Depends what your definition of a long time is. If it's 10-20 years, you are right. 20-30-40 years, I believe what I said. When your product price increases outstrip inflation by large factors, outstrip income growth .. every single day that clicks by, the universe of your customers gets smaller.
Well, I feel like if there are no more buildings in the next 20 years, cost won't be the reason that students wouldn't be considering Marquette.
Indeed, as you write, application numbers go up every year. I guarantee they will continue to rise, perhaps forever (longer than my previous time horizon) because the internet has made it increasingly easier to apply, and schools want big numbers. Parents want to catch a lot of fish in the net, see what financial deals each schools give. That's the new game.
I wasn't talking about applicants. Isn't enrollment up with the highest incoming GPA's and ACTs scores?
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You have some good points. But I'm not convinced. First, I think that location on Wisconsin Ave. is prime territory for a much more serious project. A new College of Biz. Maybe a new College of Comm. There's no reason that Marquette can't tear down the crap on Wells on either side of 12th street that it now owns and put a building there.
There are environmental issues with the old dry cleaners and legal issues with the lease for Hegarty's that prevent any movement there.
How often do students visit the offices you've mentioned? Once a month? Does it make sense to have a really nice office where students can (maybe ironically...) pay their bills once a month or a building where they'll have classes 5 times a week? I don't argue that having all the bureaucracies in one location is a bad potential idea.
But it is silly and selfish for the administrative bureaucracies to use prime real estate and limited donations for a building students will use much less than a building they study and take classes in.
Don't forget that admissions and financial aid is in that building, too. Every single tour of campus starts there.
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So many awful building to be torn down and replaced... so little time.
Things that do NOT need to be replaced:
Rec Center
CoB building
Things to seriously consider tearing down...
McCormick Hall
Lalumiere
just a question... is the Varsity theatre still around? If not, that building needs to GO.
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Not too mention the Admissions office inside Marquette Hall was a disgrace for incoming students.
As well as prospective students...I mean I had my mind made up before going on the "official" campus tour, but sending a student who didn't know where they wanted to go to school to an old dumpy building to start their tour doesn't give a good first impression. Also, I too have had to travel from the 1212 building to take care of some admin issues all the way to the bursar which was near OP, and then back again. The admin building was very necessary.
Agreed on the CoB need (yes, former CoB student bias). The building is poorly designed (at least for what it's being used for). Frustrating to spend your entire day there, literally running into people on the stairs or getting hit by the doors in the entranceway, never being able to sit down to study or eat your lunch or to get to a computer because it's terribly congested and has maybe half the ideal amount of seating and computers. Once you get to floors 2-5 there's nothing but a bunch of classrooms that professors complain aren't designed and fitted out well enough to help them teach. Having been in UW and Villanova's CoB buildings in the past year, ours is almost shameful. There is a little mix n’ matching and prioritization that can be done. Lalamiere’s purpose could be more than adequately served within the current CoB building. Tear down Lalamiere and put an impressive CoB building that serves the students adequately, competes with some of the best schools and can be seen from the highway.
Communications as well...I mean, we all love to rip on the communications students, but the building had asbestos a few years back and is in really sad shape...do they show it to prospective basketball recruits, all of which end up in the College of Communications? And if so, pretty embarrassing.
Agree with Chicos that we should strive for continual improvement. Maybe it's not possible to keep putting up three or four impressive buildings in as many years, but there will always be something worth investing in...could be a new building, could be renovations, could be expansions.
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just a question... is the Varsity theatre still around? If not, that building needs to GO.
Still there. I don't think it is that bad though. Why do you think it needs to go? Location, look, interior?
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Still there. I don't think it is that bad though. Why do you think it needs to go? Location, look, interior?
Varsity theater was renovated last summer and looks fantastic inside. All the seating was reupholstered and the woodwork redone. The lower level (basement) now houses the music program offices and practice rooms. The rest of the building (Holthusen) is in good structural shape.
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Depends what your definition of a long time is. If it's 10-20 years, you are right. 20-30-40 years, I believe what I said. When your product price increases outstrip inflation by large factors, outstrip income growth .. every single day that clicks by, the universe of your customers gets smaller.
But I think you are mistaken when you say that costs are what are what is driving up tuition. My MU professors taught me that supply and demand is what determines your price point. MU raises tuition beyond inflation because they can increase revenue by doing so.
Furthermore, since you are using donated money and since the cost of doing major projects is actually pretty low right now, this is a brilliant time for the school to improve its infrastructure. Yes, new buildings cost money. But new buildings are also generally cheaper to maintain.
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Its not a quantity number of applicants issue, its a quality issue. The true way for Marquette to fail the the mission is for the return on an MU diploma to go down. Love it or hate it, in this sense it should be run like a fortune 500 company. The other schools are going to continue to improve, and if you aren't getting better, you're getting worse. Prestige really isn't fine where it is. I mean, I guess I know law better than any other field, but its a nice example because there are explicit rankings that applicants all the way to firms actually follow. With the exception of an aging Marquette mafia firmly established in mke, a MU law degree doesn't travel like it used to. The overall return on it, compared to a law degree from other schools, has gone down.
You are correct...
but at some point, there is a diminishing return.
If/when MU costs 100K per year and hardly anybody can afford it, what will the diploma be worth then? MU won't be attracting the brightest kids, it will simply be attracting the kids who can afford it.
There is a breaking point.
I think MU does need to "keep up with the jones'", but also needs to think long and hard about what the school will look like in 20 years, and 40 years.
The well of families that can afford it isn't endless, and with the current approach, private schools are going to price themselves out of the market at some point.
MU doesn't need to stop, but probably needs to be smarter with what they are doing.
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Curious .. maybe the collective knowledge of Scoop can help with a timeline. It seems as if the last 10-20 years, MU has had an explosion of building. How does that compare to prior decades? Help fill in the blanks:
2000-2010 - Al Center, Law School, Library, Zilber, Dental School, McCabe Residence Hall, Engineering building
90s - New union, Cudahy Hall
80s - ??
70s - ??
The 1980s had the Haggerty Museum of Art(1984) and the Emory Clark Nursing Building(1981).
They had plans to build more, but changed their minds when Children's Hospital left the area and they bought all of CHW's old buildings. That gave them one entire block of real estate that now accounts for Humphrey Hall, Academic Support, the Child Care Center, the Helfaer Building, a couple of surface parking lots, and the 18th street parking structure. I believe they also got the 1700 building in that deal as well.
Not only that, but they bought the Biltmore Apartments(where Raynor is now), and remodeled Carpenter Hall(where Cudahy is now).
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Agree to most of the above. construction costs are down considerably from personal experience both in my home and corporate building. contractors are looking for work and now is the time to expand if the money is there... MU is in danger of pricing itself out of the market but demand is not likely to go down soon. State schools are inundated with candidiates and private colleges are getting the benefit of those who can't get in.The key will be the ability to offer scholarships to eligible students. hence the calls from MU and the school I sent my kids to out here asking for doantions to schollie funds. $40k a year may be the tipping point for most middle class families. Just my riff on the subject
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Not a COB grad, are you?
Actually no, Arts and Sciences.
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I 'love' the "we need a new rec center" people. I heard that throughout the time I was there (03-08). People would point to the new MSOE facilities downtown.
I really never understood it. Is your workout experience better if you run on a treadmill in a more pretty building versus a less pretty building?
Topper is correct ... if Marquette, or any other private university really want to think about the future, they need to think about cost containment. Not, "How many pretty buildings and new self-serving bureaucracies can we create on students' dimes?"
It's not the building that is being complained about. It is the fact that when we go there we very often can't find room on the basketball courts, or even on treadmills at times. The look of the building is not what is being discussed, but rather that fact that it does not seem to be sufficient for the amount of people going there
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The 1980s had the Haggerty Museum of Art(1984) and the Emory Clark Nursing Building(1981).
They had plans to build more, but changed their minds when Children's Hospital left the area and they bought all of CHW's old buildings. That gave them one entire block of real estate that now accounts for Humphrey Hall, Academic Support, the Child Care Center, the Helfaer Building, a couple of surface parking lots, and the 18th street parking structure. I believe they also got the 1700 building in that deal as well.
I believe the Olin Engineering Center was also in the 80s.
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I believe the Olin Engineering Center was also in the 80s.
Olin was in 1978.
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Adding new buildings doesn't up the cost of a students tuition. These buildings are built on credit, they are paid upfront with donor money. the cost to maintain and heat/cool these buildings is actually usually cheaper than the older ones they are replacing(brought up in an earlier post). Marquettes price will naturally go up over time, as will every school in the country. That being said, it is till amongst the cheapest private schools in the country, and is still considered a "best buy" school by multiple accredited ranking services. The truth is, Marquette MUST invest in buildings. Much of the campus is still outdated. residence halls are pretty terrible, and is compounded by the fact that you must live in them for 2 years. The buisness school, science labs, and laulemiere are hideous. Villanova, georgetown, Notre dame, the schools we are trying to emulate in many ways, would rip our facilities to shreds. Throw on top of this the 800 pound gorilla in the room, the climate, and Marquette must improve its buildings continually. While affordability is important, is much better for the student as well as the university to increase tuition if it means increasing the value of a degree. paying an extra 4 grand a year for 4 years is quickly nullified if you make an extra 4 grand a year for the rest of your life post Marquette.
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So many awful building to be torn down and replaced... so little time.
Things that do NOT need to be replaced:
Rec Center
CoB building
Things to seriously consider tearing down...
McCormick Hall
Lalumiere
just a question... is the Varsity theatre still around? If not, that building needs to GO.
I never understood why Lalumiere needed to be torn down. I think it's functional, just an eyesore. Whereas McCormick, is unsafe and almost unusable for today's standard.
They just remodeled the Varsity theater, actually looks decent inside. It's a big auditorium that is used for music classes, movies, and large presentations. Can't tear it down until a new theater is built.
ETA: Not that I wouldn't tear down Lalu if I had the chance, just don't think it's at the op of the list.
One thing I wish Marquette would do is capitalize on out location to the highway more. Good start with the law school, but I'm surprised that during the the reconstruction of the highway that we couldn't get some free (or very cheap) advertisement from it. Let everyone driving from Chicago to Madison or the UP know they are passing Marquette. The over passes are already blue and gold (ok, cream) but have words like Marquette University, Excellence, Service, Leadership, etc. Also, on 894 I think there should be more signage to let people know we are there. If Lalumiere does get torn down, I would like something beautiful that faces the highway.
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I never understood why Lalumiere needed to be torn down. I think it's functional, just an eyesore. Whereas McCormick, is unsafe and almost unusable for today's standard.
They just remodeled the Varsity theater, actually looks decent inside. It's a big auditorium that is used for music classes, movies, and large presentations. Can't tear it down until a new theater is built.
the problem with tearing down Mccormick is where do you put all those freshman while you build another dorm?
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the problem with tearing down Mccormick is where do you put all those freshman while you build another dorm?
Well, I think they are working on it. The Abbottsford and McCabe were added recently. Not sure what the deal is with Hegarty's, but I thought they bought those apartments. They could also set up special wings in campus town. Even allow students from organizations to live with each other in one wing. Or have sophomore honors set up there.
IMO, when you consider that the fire exits are barely up to code and the rooms are incredibly small, I feel it should be a priority. I know MU would never do it, but allow sophs for one year the opportunity to live off-campus, or atleast relax the standards for exemption, such as if you have a brother/sister/cousin, you can live with them.
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What currently occupies the old dental school building...and the rest of the Schroeder Complex?
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IMO, when you consider that the fire exits are barely up to code and the rooms are incredibly small, I feel it should be a priority. I know MU would never do it, but allow sophs for one year the opportunity to live off-campus, or atleast relax the standards for exemption, such as if you have a brother/sister/cousin, you can live with them.
If you let a lot of sophs get out of the dorms, student safety would be a concern as student housing would have to extend past state street and probably past 22nd or 23rd.
It's not the end of the world, but I think that is something to consider.
MU has done a great job in the last decade with campus planning. Obviously we'd all still love it if the Avalanche was still around and a few other things, but for the most part, MU has done a good job upgrading campus.
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What currently occupies the old dental school building...and the rest of the Schroeder Complex?
Pretty sure Schroeder has the College of Education and the College of Health Sciences. Much of the old dental school was turned into the new Speech Pathology area because Monitor Hall got torn down right around the same time. Pschology is also there as well, rather than having them spread out around campus.
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So many awful building to be torn down and replaced... so little time.
Things that do NOT need to be replaced:
Rec Center
CoB building
Things to seriously consider tearing down...
McCormick Hall
Lalumiere
just a question... is the Varsity theatre still around? If not, that building needs to GO.
Why no new CoB?
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If you let a lot of sophs get out of the dorms, student safety would be a concern as student housing would have to extend past state street and probably past 22nd or 23rd.
It's not the end of the world, but I think that is something to consider.
MU has done a great job in the last decade with campus planning. Obviously we'd all still love it if the Avalanche was still around and a few other things, but for the most part, MU has done a good job upgrading campus.
I'm curious what MU long term plan will be. Anyone think in the next two decades they would expand west? There would be some PR problems doing that, but it seems they are slowly headed in that direction. It is weird mix once you get past Marquette's current campus. You have a ton of areas that you could purchase/tear down; a lot of appealing buildings/businesses that don't down grade the campus, but would break them up; and a lot of other buildings that you can't touch (Historic buildings, churches, etc)
Anyone know what they are planning with the old engineering building?
IMO- If you want to keep doing these projects without using every bit of green space, we would have to push west.
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Why no new CoB?
I think you guys are discussing two different things. New CoB does not equal tearing down Straz. Straz has nice classrooms and some nice space, just not enough for the college of bus. I wonder if another school, or even just a major could take that over.
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I think you guys are discussing two different things. New CoB does not equal tearing down Straz. Straz has nice classrooms and some nice space, just not enough for the college of bus. I wonder if another school, or even just a major could take that over.
I understand that the old law library will be torn down in the near future but does anyone know what will happen to Sensenbrenner Hall when Eckstein Hall opens?
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Now THAT might make a nice intermediate solution for a COB. A lot of conference rooms, etc. Move some of the nice rooms that are in Straz now (the stock ticker room comes to mind). Although Sensenbrenner was not cutting it as a law school, it would be an upgrade from tossing MBA and B-school graduate students into Straz for six hours. Particularly considering that I'm sure a number commute, etc.
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I never understood why Lalumiere needed to be torn down. I think it's functional, just an eyesore. Whereas McCormick, is unsafe and almost unusable for today's standard.
They just remodeled the Varsity theater, actually looks decent inside. It's a big auditorium that is used for music classes, movies, and large presentations. Can't tear it down until a new theater is built.
ETA: Not that I wouldn't tear down Lalu if I had the chance, just don't think it's at the op of the list.
One thing I wish Marquette would do is capitalize on out location to the highway more. Good start with the law school, but I'm surprised that during the the reconstruction of the highway that we couldn't get some free (or very cheap) advertisement from it. Let everyone driving from Chicago to Madison or the UP know they are passing Marquette. The over passes are already blue and gold (ok, cream) but have words like Marquette University, Excellence, Service, Leadership, etc. Also, on 894 I think there should be more signage to let people know we are there. If Lalumiere does get torn down, I would like something beautiful that faces the highway.
I already touched on Lalumiere. Its NOT functional. It leaks water every year into classrooms and hallways. I guess you could repair/renovate for that, but why not just tear the damn thing down?
And they have been advertising on the new Law School. At least last time I drove by it, there was a huge blue and gold sign that said Marquette University Law School visible from the highway.
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I think you guys are discussing two different things. New CoB does not equal tearing down Straz. Straz has nice classrooms and some nice space, just not enough for the college of bus. I wonder if another school, or even just a major could take that over.
Agree completely, which is why I suggested that Lalumiere doesn't need to be replaced and it probably doesn't even make economic sense to replace. Straz would be an upgrade and more than accomodating to everything that goes on in there; heck, the College of Communication might even be able to share it and it would still function better without all the CoB congestion. Use the land Lalamiere is on, the extra space and the visible location to put a CoB with facilities up to par with the competition.
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Chicos, those are very good points. I went to MU in the late 80s...probably at the University's low point. The facilities were pretty spartan back then. When I was leaving is when they opened up AMU with Cudahy soon to follow. That sparked the turn around that has continued to this day.
As long as those buildings are built with donated money, it will have no real affect on student tuition.
I'm also going to agree with you big time on the medical school. Even if it was located where MCW is now, it would be better if it were Marquette Medical School.
I went to MU during the same period. I actually worked at the old union and the new union. That was definitely the start of ramping things up a bit.
In my mind, if we're going to be a top notch university we have to act like one. That includes perception of the physical plant.
MU during the late 80's was in pretty bad shape physically and though applications were up, we were the benefit of a Generation X boom were every college was seeing increased applications. In my opinion, we had a number of students accepted at MU during that time period that would not be accepted in today's day and age. By increasing tuition, that has helped to raise the profile and weed out some students that are not qualified to attend MU.
Sorry if that sounds prickish, but I believe it to be true.
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I already touched on Lalumiere. Its NOT functional. It leaks water every year into classrooms and hallways. I guess you could repair/renovate for that, but why not just tear the damn thing down?
And they have been advertising on the new Law School. At least last time I drove by it, there was a huge blue and gold sign that said Marquette University Law School visible from the highway.
Thomas Ganey from the University Architect's office had a nice little presentation last fall on "The Business of Marquette". I believe he mentioned that both Lalumiere and McCormick, despite known building issues, are incredibly inexpensive to operate. Both buildings are going nowhere unless someone decides to pay for the removal and construction of replacement buildings.
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I already touched on Lalumiere. Its NOT functional. It leaks water every year into classrooms and hallways. I guess you could repair/renovate for that, but why not just tear the damn thing down?
I've had multiple classes and spent a large amount of time there for social organizations. Never noticed the leaking problem. Maybe they fixed it the last 3 years. There's a big difference between tearing down and building a new building, and fixing a roof. I agree with you on it needing to come down in the future. IMO, though, McCormick>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>need then Lalumiere. I look at dorms as big part of the college experience and a lot of students get turned off living in a small, pie-shaped room. Not only that, but even the design is a hazard in that one of the stairs only goes to the second floor.
And they have been advertising on the new Law School. At least last time I drove by it, there was a huge blue and gold sign that said Marquette University Law School visible from the highway.
Never said they weren't advertising the law school. In fact, I said they were doing a good job. I just wanted more permanent advertising. Not necessarily billboards, but more stuff on building and more along the highway. Will that big sign still be there when the school is complete?
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By increasing tuition, that has helped to raise the profile and weed out some students that are not qualified to attend MU.
Sorry if that sounds prickish, but I believe it to be true.
This is 100% true, but what's the tipping point? 40K per year? 50K per year? 100k per year?
At some point (I don't know when) MU is going to become too expensive for a lot of bright kids... leaving only the wealthy who can afford it.
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The only problem with that concept is that .. at no point will anyone say "ok, we have enough" and that leads to constant spending, often for spending's sake because, well for the love of god, we've got to improve. If you're not first, you're last. -- This isn't an electronics company, in desperate need to innovate every quarter.
I imagine a MU Trustee meeting, where someone plops down a great plan with the premise it will improve quality of such and such. Well, improve quality, we've got to improve quality. Better is better. We've got to improve always. Plan approved!
Bottom line, all this improvement is just super. Super-d-duper. Unfortunately, the product is going to get so super, so expensive, in the long run, no one will be able to afford the product.
Then the mission has failed.
(Another note .. aggressive cost containment, even at the detriment of the perception of prestige, I believe, would NOT give MU fewer applicants. MU would receive more applicants, since the truth is, the prestige level is fine as it is .. if they were a low(er) cost leader, the world would beat a path to their doorstep in this age of outrageous tuition levels.)
LOL....sounds like my argument with government. Always a new program, always a new entitlement, they never stop and the old ones never go away.
I understand what you're saying, there's a fine line here, however. If we're to attract quality students, we need quality buildings. I think the Dental School is exhibit A for this. If these are funded outside of the core University fund by donors \ gifts, I'm all for it because it's something MU has to do to stay competitive.
The cost of attending MU is high, but students are also receiving a tremendous amount of grants and aid as well which makes it a reasonable cost for many.
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I understand that the old law library will be torn down in the near future but does anyone know what will happen to Sensenbrenner Hall when Eckstein Hall opens?
My understanding was that Sensenbrenner will be restored to its pre-expansion state, albeit with an elevator somehow.
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do you know what it will be used for at that point?
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This is 100% true, but what's the tipping point? 40K per year? 50K per year? 100k per year?
At some point (I don't know when) MU is going to become too expensive for a lot of bright kids... leaving only the wealthy who can afford it.
MU isn't the only school that is increasing tuition. All schools are, public and private. Look at the US news website at the top 100 schools, specifically schools that I consider peer schools and their tuition is right around the same as MU's.
Of course, then there's UW, which has about 75 new buildings going up at the same time. and signs boasting about how little tuition $$ are being used to build some of the buildings. ::)
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MU isn't the only school that is increasing tuition. All schools are, public and private. Look at the US news website at the top 100 schools, specifically schools that I consider peer schools and their tuition is right around the same as MU's.
Of course, then there's UW, which has about 75 new buildings going up at the same time. and signs boasting about how little tuition $$ are being used to build some of the buildings. ::)
Totally fair.
I'm fearful that a lot of private schools might be pricing themselves right out of the market, MU especially.
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this topic has been discussed extensively but I wanted to toss in a few thoughts. Negating the thought that these costs would directly be passed on to the students.
I think that Laulamire needs to be taken down. It's an eyesore. I think besides a more modern building to replace it MU needs to put up a clock tower of some sort.
Catholic knights would be a great building to remodel and create for student housing but I think it would be a great place to consolidate professors and academic people for some/most colleges. That way MU could get rid of the academic support facility -when I was there a few TAs were forced to be in there.
As a CoC grad I think MU needs to gut JH. There are stairwells that don't go to every floor, floors don't have both mens and women's bathrooms and the audio or taping studios are spaced too far apart while the computers are too close together. And there is that whole issue of MU radio not operating on a frequency.
The Rec Center could use a remodel or rebuild. It gets real crowded after 3pm til about 630-7. If things would just get a bit more comfortable in there.
On a side note and more of an aesthetic suggestion, MU needs a fountain.
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this topic has been discussed extensively but I wanted to toss in a few thoughts. Negating the thought that these costs would directly be passed on to the students.
I think that Laulamire needs to be taken down. It's an eyesore. I think besides a more modern building to replace it MU needs to put up a clock tower of some sort.
Catholic knights would be a great building to remodel and create for student housing but I think it would be a great place to consolidate professors and academic people for some/most colleges. That way MU could get rid of the academic support facility -when I was there a few TAs were forced to be in there.
As a CoC grad I think MU needs to gut JH. There are stairwells that don't go to every floor, floors don't have both mens and women's bathrooms and the audio or taping studios are spaced too far apart while the computers are too close together. And there is that whole issue of MU radio not operating on a frequency.
The Rec Center could use a remodel or rebuild. It gets real crowded after 3pm til about 630-7. If things would just get a bit more comfortable in there.
On a side note and more of an aesthetic suggestion, MU needs a fountain.
+1 on the clocktower/fountain. I think these could be combined into one piece. SLU has a nice clocktower/fountain. Where would you put it?
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This is 100% true, but what's the tipping point? 40K per year? 50K per year? 100k per year?
At some point (I don't know when) MU is going to become too expensive for a lot of bright kids... leaving only the wealthy who can afford it.
Perhaps, but with the amount of money in aid coming in for students, I think we are far from hitting that tipping point. Don't get me wrong, I worry about it. It's like any product, whether it's your monthly television bill, cost of a basketball ticket or sending a kid to college. Price elasticity is a big issue.
I just don't want MU to go back to the days of having an ugly school in a piss poor neighborhood. MU finally recognized that and cleaned things up, put money into aesthetics, improved the appearance and made functional improvements to some academic buildings which ultimately will lead to a higher quality law, dental and engineering student coming to Marquette.
We've made steady strides in our academic ratings during this same time. MU has to decide what it wants to be. IMO, if they want to stay where they are academically and not fall back, they're going to have to continue to spend money improving buildings, labs, etc to justify the tuition expenses.
Tuition isn't going down so the way to maintain the price integrity is to continue providing a product that people believe warrants that expenditure. That includes the physical plant.
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As a CoC grad I think MU needs to gut JH. There are stairwells that don't go to every floor,
Only one, and it doesn't go up to 5 and that's it. floors don't have both mens and women's bathrooms
This would literally require starting the building over at this point, since there's no space for 2 bathrooms next to each other in the current location, so the piping would have to be completely redone.And there is that whole issue of MU radio not operating on a frequency.
I'm guessing that's more of a funding issue than anything else?
CoC has done a lot of work refreshing the existing room setup, including a complete revamp for the Tribune, MUTV, and WMUR offices, moving all of them into the same end of the basement.
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Not leaning one way or another, but I find it funny some are arguing to keep costs down while others want to build fountains and a clock-tower, which kind of reminds me of Avenue Commons.
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Not leaning one way or another, but I find it funny some are arguing to keep costs down while others want to build fountains and a clock-tower, which kind of reminds me of Avenue Commons.
(http://www.slashfilm.com/wp/wp-content/images/savetheclocktowerflyer.jpg)
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On a side note and more of an aesthetic suggestion, MU needs a fountain.
Well, technically, there is that little fountain in front of Joan of Arc. Of course, I don't think I've ever actually seen running water.
I've heard this somewhere, but is it true that OPUS (the construction company building all these things) also helps fund the cost of construction for these buildings? They have exclusive access to MU projects (seemingly). Do they throw in some money to kick it off? And does MU pay it back, or is it part of some deal they have together?
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Andy-
CoC got like a $20m donation a few years ago. I know it was used to buy some great equipment for the Broadcasting students but nothing about a frequency. I think the BREC students ran out of places to put AVID computers. I like what that money went to for the MUTV studio.
There is also that middle stairwell on the west side of the building, Pretty sure it's locked. Either way traffic flow sucks in that building. Also 'that one stairwell" can't reach the 2nd floor either.
I didn't know the MUTV and WMUR offices were all put in the basement. I knew the trib was down there. I still thought MTUV was 3rd floor? and WMUR was 4th... or is it 2nd and 3rd.
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+1 on the clocktower/fountain. I think these could be combined into one piece. SLU has a nice clocktower/fountain. Where would you put it?
If it was Just a clock tower, I'd put it where LL is (of course with an Academic building too), but you could put both on the mall there. I just think it's terrible that when people drive on I-94 the one MU building they see is LL. A nice clock tower, a MU style academic building and a fountain would look nicer.
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There is also that middle stairwell on the west side of the building, Pretty sure it's locked. Either way traffic flow sucks in that building. Also 'that one stairwell" can't reach the 2nd floor either.
I think you can't access the second floor because it's locked, right? It wouldn't need new construction, just a set of keys.
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Well, technically, there is that little fountain in front of Joan of Arc. Of course, I don't think I've ever actually seen running water.
I've heard this somewhere, but is it true that OPUS (the construction company building all these things) also helps fund the cost of construction for these buildings? They have exclusive access to MU projects (seemingly). Do they throw in some money to kick it off? And does MU pay it back, or is it part of some deal they have together?
Opus is owned / run (???) by Marquette people. I'm sure they give MU a discount...I'm sure that MU gives them all their jobs to keep them happy. And I'm sure donations then flow back from the company and the alumni to the University.
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Opus is owned / run (???) by Marquette people. I'm sure they give MU a discount...I'm sure that MU gives them all their jobs to keep them happy. And I'm sure donations then flow back from the company and the alumni to the University.
Thanks for the info.
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Perhaps, but with the amount of money in aid coming in for students, I think we are far from hitting that tipping point. Don't get me wrong, I worry about it. It's like any product, whether it's your monthly television bill, cost of a basketball ticket or sending a kid to college. Price elasticity is a big issue.
I just don't want MU to go back to the days of having an ugly school in a piss poor neighborhood. MU finally recognized that and cleaned things up, put money into aesthetics, improved the appearance and made functional improvements to some academic buildings which ultimately will lead to a higher quality law, dental and engineering student coming to Marquette.
We've made steady strides in our academic ratings during this same time. MU has to decide what it wants to be. IMO, if they want to stay where they are academically and not fall back, they're going to have to continue to spend money improving buildings, labs, etc to justify the tuition expenses.
Tuition isn't going down so the way to maintain the price integrity is to continue providing a product that people believe warrants that expenditure. That includes the physical plant.
Agree completely.
I'm by no means saying that MU should stop building and freeze tuition costs...
BUT, they need to be smart about what they do. It looks like an awesome idea right now to keep building new facilities in order to attract top students. I get it.
But, 4 years ago it also seemed like a good idea for lenders to give out $$ like crazy to anybody with a pulse because real-estate was a can't lose option.
Things change.
I hope the campus keeps improving, but I hope MU keeps a keen eye on it's rising costs. Should they build? Yes. Should they keep going and going and going and going. Nope. I know nobody is proposing that, but you get the idea.
MU needs to be smart about what they do and how they do it. Upgrade where it fits, maintain when possible.
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Opus is owned / run (???) by Marquette people. I'm sure they give MU a discount...I'm sure that MU gives them all their jobs to keep them happy. And I'm sure donations then flow back from the company and the alumni to the University.
Marquette is also the only reason Opus is functioning right now. Just about every one of their offices outside of Milwaukee has closed and the MU projects are their only real business right now.
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Marquette is also the only reason Opus is functioning right now. Just about every one of their offices outside of Milwaukee has closed and the MU projects are their only real business right now.
Not according to their web site:
http://www.opuscorp.com/pages/proj_results.aspx?ProjectComplete=0&Region=&ProjectType=&ProjectSize=0,999999999
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Not according to their web site:
http://www.opuscorp.com/pages/proj_results.aspx?ProjectComplete=0&Region=&ProjectType=&ProjectSize=0,999999999
don't believe everything you read on the internet.
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Agree completely.
I'm by no means saying that MU should stop building and freeze tuition costs...
BUT, they need to be smart about what they do. It looks like an awesome idea right now to keep building new facilities in order to attract top students. I get it.
But, 4 years ago it also seemed like a good idea for lenders to give out $$ like crazy to anybody with a pulse because real-estate was a can't lose option.
Things change.
I hope the campus keeps improving, but I hope MU keeps a keen eye on it's rising costs. Should they build? Yes. Should they keep going and going and going and going. Nope. I know nobody is proposing that, but you get the idea.
MU needs to be smart about what they do and how they do it. Upgrade where it fits, maintain when possible.
I never thought it was a good idea to lend money to people who couldn't even pay the rent, but that's a subject for another day.
In MU's case, they can finance debt and make this happen. You are right, they need to be smart about it. Gold toilet seats....no thanks.
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Not according to their web site:
http://www.opuscorp.com/pages/proj_results.aspx?ProjectComplete=0&Region=&ProjectType=&ProjectSize=0,999999999
They may want to fix their website on the college of engineering completion date of 1979.
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Not according to their web site:
http://www.opuscorp.com/pages/proj_results.aspx?ProjectComplete=0&Region=&ProjectType=&ProjectSize=0,999999999
They are completely supported by marquette right now and only have about 4 offices total left, all the others, including Minneapolis filed for bankruptcy. The former president of the milwaukee office was a mu grad, along with the founder or his son(it was one of the two, if not both) of marquette. they do work for other catholic universities and tend to donate a lot of money each year to those schools through a fund of theirs.
back to what building i'd like to see improved.....the engineering building. yes i know a new one is being built, but there isn't enough money yet for the whole building, and given it's current level of funding, the first phase will only be fit out on the first 2 floors. meaning the top 2 or 3 will be empty. the labs, especially the structures lab is needed really really badly so i hope that all they money they have now can pay for what is needed, but i think without the 2nd phase they will be smaller for now and there won't be as many. currently the structures lab is in the basement of the engineering building, with just a little bit on the first floor. the new one will be 2 stories high and have doors with access to the street, meaning actual large objects can be tested on. currently i don't know why people commit here to go through the engineering program, especially for grad students. the teachers are good, but the labs and classrooms are awful compared to anything i've ever seen. the next one would be laulamire, but not entirely redone, i'd like to see something done to it like what was done to the amtrak station, and just have a new shell put around the existing building, for me the inside is fine for what it's used for.
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I think JH is getting a complete renovation on the inside. They had the architects meet with a panel of students last semester to see what the students wanted. I think the construction begins this summer too.
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Glad I saw this thread before University architect Tom Gainey talked to our construction management class. He covered a lot of the points. I will try and respond to some of these concerns in how I feel he responded to some of these issues.
-McCormick hall is out dated yes. Back when students came to college in the 60's they brought some clothes, some books, and maybe a shoe rack. Much different from what a college student brings today. The size of rooms wasn't an issue then compared to now. It is far too effecient at housing students to be removed as a housing option as long as students want to live there. (Believe it or not students these days do. It is the hardest dorm to get into and always has had a waiting list since I've been here. Partying- that is what McCormick is known for these days.).
-sprinkler systems are being added to McC
-The university has long term plans. That 50 year plan includes a new rec center. Despite MUSG's demand for a new one the university does not see a need for a new one yet. (I haven't been there all semester)
-the science buildings are an eyesore. He knows this. Physics was painted for the first time last year since it was built.
-he took the blame for the horrible color of the Chem building. Said that someone else was in charge of choosing the color of the metal siding. He had to ok it and the person who chose it showed him a small sample on a cloudy and swore by it. It was a busy day and he shrugged it off and believed who ever was in charge was capable of making a good decision. He said he hates it and he'll take the blame for it.
-The science buildings were built during the sputnik scare so government funding was readily available if they could be built quickly.
-Johnson hall is being rennovated. It is difficult to renovate a building while still occupying it. I.E. It will take time.
-Two parking lots and a green spaced are replacing some of the buildings by the new law school.
-The owner of the new engineering school property also owned mccabe hall and hegartys property. He would only sell as a package deal. He didn't mention any plans of doing anything with the Hegartys property.
-Zibler hall is meant to look like a family member of the buildings around it. (Gesu, Johnson, Marquette hall). Gothic college architecture. Said they need to look like they are of a family but neccesarily identical twins.
-Lalumiere is an eyesore but serves its purpose. Would he like to get rid of it? Probably. Are there plans to? No. It was built in a time period that just did not put a whole lot of stock in appearance.
It was a great presentation. I will write more later but my hydraulics class is over.
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Glad I saw this thread before University architect Tom Gainey talked to our construction management class. He covered a lot of the points. I will try and respond to some of these concerns in how I feel he responded to some of these issues.
-McCormick hall is out dated yes. Back when students came to college in the 60's they brought some clothes, some books, and maybe a shoe rack. Much different from what a college student brings today. The size of rooms wasn't an issue then compared to now. It is far too effecient at housing students to be removed as a housing option as long as students want to live there. (Believe it or not students these days do. It is the hardest dorm to get into and always has had a waiting list since I've been here. Partying- that is what McCormick is known for these days.).
-sprinkler systems are being added to McC
-The university has long term plans. That 50 year plan includes a new rec center. Despite MUSG's demand for a new one the university does not see a need for a new one yet. (I haven't been there all semester)
-the science buildings are an eyesore. He knows this. Physics was painted for the first time last year since it was built.
-he took the blame for the horrible color of the Chem building. Said that someone else was in charge of choosing the color of the metal siding. He had to ok it and the person who chose it showed him a small sample on a cloudy and swore by it. It was a busy day and he shrugged it off and believed who ever was in charge was capable of making a good decision. He said he hates it and he'll take the blame for it.
-The science buildings were built during the sputnik scare so government funding was readily available if they could be built quickly.
-Johnson hall is being rennovated. It is difficult to renovate a building while still occupying it. I.E. It will take time.
-Two parking lots and a green spaced are replacing some of the buildings by the new law school.
-The owner of the new engineering school property also owned mccabe hall and hegartys property. He would only sell as a package deal. He didn't mention any plans of doing anything with the Hegartys property.
-Zibler hall is meant to look like a family member of the buildings around it. (Gesu, Johnson, Marquette hall). Gothic college architecture. Said they need to look like they are of a family but neccesarily identical twins.
-Lalumiere is an eyesore but serves its purpose. Would he like to get rid of it? Probably. Are there plans to? No. It was built in a time period that just did not put a whole lot of stock in appearance.
It was a great presentation. I will write more later but my hydraulics class is over.
LOL...thanks.
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-Lalumiere is an eyesore but serves its purpose. Would he like to get rid of it? Probably. Are there plans to? No. It was built in a time period that just did not put a whole lot of stock in appearance.
It was a great presentation. I will write more later but my hydraulics class is over.
Great post. Just confused by the lalumiere statement. Wasn't it built a period that cared too much about appearance. It just seems like it was built based on a specific time period style. If appearance wasn't a priority back then, they would have just built a plain building with standard windows. Maybe he meant it was built when they weren't concerned with building a campus identity and instead just inserted random cool-looking buildings from the time period.
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Great post. Just confused by the lalumiere statement. Wasn't it built a period that cared too much about appearance. It just seems like it was built based on a specific time period style. If appearance wasn't a priority back then, they would have just built a plain building with standard windows. Maybe he meant it was built when they weren't concerned with building a campus identity and instead just inserted random cool-looking buildings from the time period.
I may have accidentally included that building in the science building group. It was an hour an 15 minute presentation so don't go quoting me on the 100% accuracy of any of these bullet points. They are merely what I recall from the presentation. Walking back from class and seeing campus also reminded me a few cool points I initially omitted.
-This also reminded me of an interesting point he brought up about a campus wide theme. He showed an aerial picture taken in 1962 and pointed out the 5 buildings purchased or built in the 1920's. There was the original Marquette property by Straz tower where the highway is now. And I don't remember exactly what the other four were but one of them was a building on 16th and Wisconsin. One was the Old Marquette Gym and one was a building on 15th and Michigan. He said that there was obviously a long term plan even from pretty early ambitions to have a pretty large campus.
-When the science buildings were built 14th and 15th still went through which also limited their ability to do a lot with the properties.
-"Michigan Ave" will once again be somewhat present on campus. It will extend from the North side of Eckstein hall to the back of Gesu for a drop off location for the church. It will also run in between the rec center and the south end of the new engineering building.
-The first phase of the engineering building will be mostly lab space. So Haggerty and Olin will still be utilized for class space
-The top two floors of the new engineering building will be unfurnished to start. There is a contribution of 25 million at 1 million per year for 25 yrs. The initial 35 mil will be enough to building the entire building but not furnish the top floors. Instead of going into debt, the money that will be coming in will be used to fund the furnishing of the building.
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One was the Old Marquette Gym
Were any plans for the old gym mentioned?
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-The top two floors of the new engineering building will be unfurnished to start. There is a contribution of 25 million at 1 million per year for 25 yrs. The initial 35 mil will be enough to building the entire building but not furnish the top floors. Instead of going into debt, the money that will be coming in will be used to fund the furnishing of the building.
This is really odd. Can't they bond the donation over 25 years to get about $15 million to furnish the top floors? The value of that $1 million goes down over time.
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If they got rid of the Old Gym they'd have to find new space for all the ROTC programs. I think that's where they all are located.
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There is also that middle stairwell on the west side of the building, Pretty sure it's locked. Either way traffic flow sucks in that building. Also 'that one stairwell" can't reach the 2nd floor either.
The midhallway stairs should be open during regular business hours, and, yes, like the eastern and southwestern stairs, it doesn't allow access to the 2nd floor.
I didn't know the MUTV and WMUR offices were all put in the basement. I knew the trib was down there. I still thought MTUV was 3rd floor? and WMUR was 4th... or is it 2nd and 3rd.
Nope, everything was moved downstairs. Centralized location and all. Complete remodel for the space, too.
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If they got rid of the Old Gym they'd have to find new space for all the ROTC programs. I think that's where they all are located.
Air Force is in 707.
More importantly though, they'd have to find locker room space for every sport except both basketball teams and the women's volleyball team.
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I like to think there would be room in the AL for them? Otherwise thats really poor foresight if the Marquette Gym space gets converted.
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I like to think there would be room in the AL for them? Otherwise thats really poor foresight if the Marquette Gym space gets converted.
The Al does not have extra space for the 7 extra locker rooms needed, not to mention the office space for the coaches.
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MU's 5.6% increase is small potatoes. Public universities are scrambling to cover costs due to funding cutbacks. Looking out, the tuition gap between public and private will close quickly. You need to consider quality, and MU has invested there and needs to continue to increase that investment via endowments. Simply stated, all four year degrees are not the same, and aren't treated the same by prospective employers.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35185920/
"Big private universities, powered by tuition and endowment increases, have increased spending dramatically while public schools have languished. Total educational spending per student at private research universities has jumped by almost 10 percent since 2002 to more than $33,000. During that same period, public university total spending was comparatively flat and totaled less than $14,000 a year.
That growing gap between rich schools and poor schools worries observers like Wellman. The cost of attending a public university, even after subtracting out aid and inflation, rose more than 15 percent in the last five years, according to the College Board. But almost all of the recent price increases at public universities are "backfilling for cuts in state funds," Wellman says."
http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/2009/01/15/the-surprising-causes-of-those-college-tuition-hikes.html
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-McCormick hall is out dated yes. Back when students came to college in the 60's they brought some clothes, some books, and maybe a shoe rack. Much different from what a college student brings today. The size of rooms wasn't an issue then compared to now. It is far too effecient at housing students to be removed as a housing option as long as students want to live there. (Believe it or not students these days do. It is the hardest dorm to get into and always has had a waiting list since I've been here. Partying- that is what McCormick is known for these days.).
McCormick was allegedly built to be singles...with a twin tower adjoining it to create a unified complex. It was outdated the day it opened. Jail cells give death row inmates more space.
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Simply stated, all four year degrees are not the same, and aren't treated the same by prospective employers.
I thought the same way. 16 years of private education. Then I got a job, and the guys working with me? From UWM? UW-Stout? UW-Whitewater, Madison, Green Bay?
They turned out to be pretty smart too. My attitude that I'd be treated differently changed pretty quickly, when they worked as hard as I did, was as smart as I was.
While I do believe a Marquette education yields unique benefits .. so does a UW system (Madison especially) education. And while MU grads, or private school grads in general, may take care of their own .. so do the UW and public school grads.
And when you consider the UW system alumni base is what, 10 times Marquette's .. Prospective employers treat public/private degrees differently, you say? Might not be what you expected when there's 10x more people interviewing you who thought their public education was pretty good too.
We'd all like to believe that our educational choices were the best ones, and our more expensive and exclusive degrees give us a leg up on everyone else, but in the end, the biggest determining factor is what kind of man (woman) you are -- by far.
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I thought the same way. 16 years of private education. Then I got a job, and the guys working with me? From UWM? UW-Stout? UW-Whitewater, Madison, Green Bay?
They turned out to be pretty smart too. My attitude that I'd be treated differently changed pretty quickly, when they worked as hard as I did, was as smart as I was.
While I do believe a Marquette education yields unique benefits .. so does a UW system (Madison especially) education. And while MU grads, or private school grads in general, may take care of their own .. so do the UW and public school grads.
And when you consider the UW system alumni base is what, 10 times Marquette's .. Prospective employers treat public/private degrees differently, you say? Might not be what you expected when there's 10x more people interviewing you who thought their public education was pretty good too.
We'd all like to believe that our educational choices were the best ones, and our more expensive and exclusive degrees give us a leg up on everyone else, but in the end, the biggest determining factor is what kind of man (woman) you are -- by far.
IMO, where you get your degree matters for your first position...the rest is up to you. When I am hiring people for higher level jobs, I look to see *if* they have a degree, and the rest is all experience and personality. I don't care where they get the degree...Harvard, Marquette, UW-Superior or Upper Iowa. My experience tells me that there is no correlation between alma mater and job performance.
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I thought the same way. 16 years of private education. Then I got a job, and the guys working with me? From UWM? UW-Stout? UW-Whitewater, Madison, Green Bay?
They turned out to be pretty smart too. My attitude that I'd be treated differently changed pretty quickly, when they worked as hard as I did, was as smart as I was.
While I do believe a Marquette education yields unique benefits .. so does a UW system (Madison especially) education. And while MU grads, or private school grads in general, may take care of their own .. so do the UW and public school grads.
And when you consider the UW system alumni base is what, 10 times Marquette's .. Prospective employers treat public/private degrees differently, you say? Might not be what you expected when there's 10x more people interviewing you who thought their public education was pretty good too.
We'd all like to believe that our educational choices were the best ones, and our more expensive and exclusive degrees give us a leg up on everyone else, but in the end, the biggest determining factor is what kind of man (woman) you are -- by far.
Bingo ... it really hits home when you go out to interview. What do you think the chances are of interviewing with a Big 10 alum somewhere in the Midwest versus a Marquette (and obv. to a less extent BE) alum? It has to be 25 to 1. And yes, Big 10 alums "look out for one another." It's not like Marquette invented the concept of interest in younger alums by older alumns.
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Bottom line is MU is a nice, middle of the road private university, nothing more, nothing less. It's not the cat's meow. Nothing wrong with that however.
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Bottom line is MU is a nice, middle of the road private university, nothing more, nothing less. It's not the cat's meow. Nothing wrong with that however.
Exactly, which with the public schools charging more and more makes MU more attractive. To compare job levels when we graduated to those in the future is misleading as the gap will widen as public spending dwindles. Ivy League, Stanford, Duke, NU will always get the students, but MU will pull more and more from public. UW will face a tough road as they are forced to cut as the taxpayer burden increases. What about Michigan and the ability of taxpayers to support the school system in that state?
In a few short years, the majority of college aged students will be minorities, and the first in their families to go to college...very different than for us. Blue collar jobs will be disappearing and the value of a college degree will be even more valuable than when we graduated. MU isn't for every kid, but the value of teaching students to actually think will be invaluable.
Start saving now, get aid when the time is right, send your wife back to work, have a bi-monthly 15 year mortgage, save your inheritance, and give your kid an experience of a lifetime wherever that may be based on their field of study. It is the most important choice for your kid's future. MU will be fine...and the more they invest now, the better MU's future will be.
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Exactly, which with the public schools charging more and more makes MU more attractive.
Ah, that's the plan? Since Public tuition is growing faster (recently), eventually they'll be even .. well, that's true.
For grins and chuckles, I was wondering how that math worked. Using figures from InsideHigherEd, avg. private 4 year is $26k, Public is $7k. Last year, public tuition went up 6.5%, while private went up 4.4%, a difference of 2.1%. (Although two years ago, the gap was just .5%.)
Let's use the 6.5%, 4.4% increase numbers for best case (for privates) scenario, as the gap would narrow "quicker."
Somewhere in the year 2077, public tuition will finally be higher than private. $472k per year to $477k per year!
While technically correct, that public tuition costs are "catching up" to private .. even 50 years from now, public education will cost 1/3rd less. I guess if you take the really really long term view, that's a good strategy.
On the other hand, if $472k per year is out of the reach of everyone in 2077, well, both systems are screwed.
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Ah, that's the plan? Since Public tuition is growing faster (recently), eventually they'll be even .. well, that's true.
For grins and chuckles, I was wondering how that math worked. Using figures from InsideHigherEd, avg. private 4 year is $26k, Public is $7k. Last year, public tuition went up 6.5%, while private went up 4.4%, a difference of 2.1%. (Although two years ago, the gap was just .5%.)
Let's use the 6.5%, 4.4% increase numbers for best case (for privates) scenario, as the gap would narrow "quicker."
Somewhere in the year 2077, public tuition will finally be higher than private. $472k per year to $477k per year!
While technically correct, that public tuition costs are "catching up" to private .. even 50 years from now, public education will cost 1/3rd less. I guess if you take the really really long term view, that's a good strategy.
On the other hand, if $472k per year is out of the reach of everyone in 2077, well, both systems are screwed.
hilltopper, you are continuing to make the mistake that it is not the list price that matters...it's the discount. Private schools generally have larger endowments, and can therefore do more to offer merit or financial based aid than publics can.
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Here's some data from InsideCollegeEd:
The College Board data for this year show that students at private colleges receive an average of $14,400 in total grant aid and federal tax breaks, meaning that the net price of tuition is about $11,900 on average.
At public four-year colleges, average grant packages and tax breaks total about $5,400, reducing average net tuition and fees (for in-state residents) to about $1,600.
Fine. I'll take "net price" and increase it by 6.5% and 4.4% every year. Now it takes 101 years for public tuition to equal private. (At which time the "net price" which you believe is important .. is $882,000 per year ..
Now, I imagine to make it perfect, you'd also factor in the increase "gap" in grants/aid from private to public .. not sure how to find that information. Regardless of that number? It's gonna take decades before public school tuition is on par with private. Not a winning strategy.
Meanwhile .. household median income, which has petered out over the past decade, hovers in the 1-2% increase range. So the $64k question is .. does "net price" increase at 1-2%? Or closer to 4-6%? My guess is 4-6%, doubling the income growth rate, meaning tuition becomes more unaffordable every day that clicks by.
edit: oops, c/affordable/unaffordable
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I compare private colleges to private high schools. The education is there at either school and one doesn't prepare you that much better than the other.
I went to Racine Horlick and received an education equal to, if not better, than Racine St. Cat's. The difference is that a lot of my friends got left behind. I don't want to sound prejudice but there are a lot of lower class students at Racine Horlick and it can be easy to get sucked in. Lots of friends dropping out, getting pregnant, etc. Whereas at St. Cats, that is less likely to happen.
I don't think Marquette's education is any better, but I feel you are less likely to fail.
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Here's some data from InsideCollegeEd:
The College Board data for this year show that students at private colleges receive an average of $14,400 in total grant aid and federal tax breaks, meaning that the net price of tuition is about $11,900 on average.
At public four-year colleges, average grant packages and tax breaks total about $5,400, reducing average net tuition and fees (for in-state residents) to about $1,600.
Fine. I'll take "net price" and increase it by 6.5% and 4.4% every year. Now it takes 101 years for public tuition to equal private. (At which time the "net price" which you believe is important .. is $882,000 per year .. love to compare that
Now, I imagine to make it perfect, you'd also factor in the increase "gap" in grants/aid from private to public .. not sure how to find that information. Regardless of that number? It's gonna take decades before public school tuition is on par with private. Not a winning strategy.
Meanwhile .. household median income, which has petered out over the past decade, hovers in the 1-2% increase range. So the $64k question is .. does "net price" increase at 1-2%? Or closer to 4-6%? My guess is 4-6%, doubling the income growth rate, meaning tuition becomes more affordable every day that clicks by.
Well, these are all very valid points, but Blackheart's point too was that it may be hard for MU to price itself out of the picture when public schools are raising tuition as well.
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And I think I answered that point. It will take 60+ years until MU will be competitive with public school costs. 100+ years if you use Net Price. That's so far in the future, it loses most of its relevance. (And naturally, those predictions are really unreliable. Public education's cost increases could flip to lower-increases over the decades. Who knows, maybe instead of a national health care program, we switch to a national college program! hah)
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And I think I answered that point. It will take 60+ years until MU will be competitive with public school costs. 100+ years if you use Net Price. That's so far in the future, it loses most of its relevance. (And naturally, those predictions are really unreliable. Public education's cost increases could flip to lower-increases over the decades. Who knows, maybe instead of a national health care program, we switch to a national college program! hah)
Blackheart's point is that since people are willing to pay the difference now because of a perceived difference in quality, that if that difference decreases over time, privates will start to look even more attractive.
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True point. People are willing to pay the premium today. They should be more willing in the future as it decreases.
What I believe removes that from reality is that income growth is paltry, and both public/private increases outstrip them. While the private school premium is shrinking in relative dollars, in absolute dollars, it will get to a point that is unaffordable, at which point, people wanting to go to a private school say they can't pay the (admittedly shrinking) premium, and then choose public.
In short, that argument would work if tuition costs for BOTH public and private, weren't headed to a point where they are simply unaffordable. Privates are hitting that level quicker, since in real dollars, they are 7x more expensive (net price) today. But even at 6x, 5x, 4x, that future gap between tuition and income will be so severe, the only choice will be public, as it's still far cheaper even 66 years out. ($102k versus $204k.) While that percentage premium will have shrunk, it won't mean a lick of difference when the real dollar premium is $100k.
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. Who knows, maybe instead of a national health care program, we switch to a national college program! hah
One could only hope. A lot of countries already do this. For some European state universities, undergraduate education is free for all citizens. Even where this isn't true, there is a lot of aid for professional degrees. Doctors, teachers, nurses would all be able to go to school for free with 5 years of service working in an inner-city area, for example.
Or better yet, help the uninsured problem in the USA by requiring all med school grads to spend 2 years working in a free clinic for 40-50k a year, in return for free med school. They can spend the rest of their life making big bucks and will carry no debt.
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Hilltopper, I very much admire your willingness to lay out the facts, but I think this issue might be akin to religion, politics ... or maybe even, dare I say it, the nickname.
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Hilltopper, I very much admire your willingness to lay out the facts, but I think this issue might be akin to religion, politics ... or maybe even, dare I say it, the nickname.
If true, especially at the board of Trustee level, that would be very unfortunate. There's some cold economic facts heading our way.
Thinking dollars and cents doesn't outweigh the un-calculatable draw of a "better" "private" education ... while your product gets more expensive relative to your customers' buying power .. thinking customers will keep buying your product because, gosh, they always had in the past .. not a solid long term strategy.
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Rec Center needs some major attention paid to it.
The college of business could certainly use a new building as well... it's still crap (I am biased as a College of Bus graduate)
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Blackheart's point is that since people are willing to pay the difference now because of a perceived difference in quality, that if that difference decreases over time, privates will start to look even more attractive.
Thank you! It isn't just the price-gap that will close but the quality gap that will widen. Public schools will scramble first for funding just to keep core courses. Professors will be replaced by TA's at state schools. JUCO's will get you entry level jobs and compete with most public 4 years, while private four year schools will get you careers. If MU decides to compete on the low end, they will not survive. Mid tier, with a quality niche will be a good place to be. Stop looking at education in 1990's terms. This will be one of the most revolutionary parts of our society in the next 20 years in terms of trends. Make sure you hedge on the high side with your kids' futures. The gap between haves and have nots will be wide.
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Answer: NOTHING!
All these buildings cost $$$ to build and $$$ to maintain. Tuition increases are outstripping inflation by several factors (5.6% this year versus the CPI which is basically flat) .. as I said in the other thread: the long term universe of people who can afford MU (and all private colleges) is decreasing every year.
MU's physical plant is superlative already. Sure, you can find spots that aren't palaces, but the idea that MU needs to "keep up" with other schools is self-fulfilling balderdash, destructive in the long run.
MU needs to do everything in its power to cost-contain or it will fail its mission in the decades ahead.
This is a good point. Even though I would love nothing more than to see Laulemere's destruction (I mean come on, the ugliest building on the planet in the middle of the campus's most attractive outdoor space) I would much rather see Marquette try to minimize its tuition growth. MU tuition is relatively affordable when compared to similar private schools, but I don't want to see Marquette become a luxury that middle class students can not afford. Right now a middle class student can borrow to go to Marquette, and reasonably expect to find a job that will allow him of her to pay off the debt in a decade/ decade and a half. I don't want to see that 10 to 15 year window expand, because in that instance the students of average income parents will have a really hard time choosing MU over other high quality, more affordable schools.
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This is a good point. Even though I would love nothing more than to see Laulemere's destruction (I mean come on, the ugliest building on the planet in the middle of the campus's most attractive outdoor space) I would much rather see Marquette try to minimize its tuition growth. MU tuition is relatively affordable when compared to similar private schools, but I don't want to see Marquette become a luxury that middle class students can not afford. Right now a middle class student can borrow to go to Marquette, and reasonably expect to find a job that will allow him of her to pay off the debt in a decade/ decade and a half. I don't want to see that 10 to 15 year window expand, because in that instance the students of average income parents will have a really hard time choosing MU over other high quality, more affordable schools.
clearly, you didn't read the rest of the thread before commenting. I'll save you some time.
MU doesn't pay for the buildings. Donor's pay for specific buildings. Tuition does not increase when new buildings are put up on campus.
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That is partially true.
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In an ideal world, there would be more investment in scholarships to keep tuition down. However, donating to a scholarship fund isn't as sexy having a state of the art building named after you. It's still better than nothing.
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In an ideal world, there would be more investment in scholarships to keep tuition down. However, donating to a scholarship fund isn't as sexy having a state of the art building named after you. It's still better than nothing.
Although everyone posting here with season tickets is donating a healthy chunk to a scholarship fund. :)
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Although everyone posting here with season tickets is donating a healthy chunk to a scholarship fund. :)
yup, I'm getting ZiggysFryBoy college of business with my $100/year donation. ;)
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Apparently O'Hara hall is coming down to make way for a new parking structure.
http://marquettetribune.org/2010/05/06/news/ohara-hall-to-make-way-for-new-parking-structure/ (http://marquettetribune.org/2010/05/06/news/ohara-hall-to-make-way-for-new-parking-structure/)
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Apparently O'Hara hall is coming down to make way for a new parking structure.
http://marquettetribune.org/2010/05/06/news/ohara-hall-to-make-way-for-new-parking-structure/ (http://marquettetribune.org/2010/05/06/news/ohara-hall-to-make-way-for-new-parking-structure/)
85 space lot, actually. And all they're going to do is expand the parking behind Johnston & Gesu already, because they're not cramming 85 spaces between that and 11th street.