Tony Gwynn has passed away. World class guy

[GGGG]

I can see the wheels grinding : Hmm...I could hit a home run and win the game right here, but I'm going to hit a single to "set the table" for my teammates instead. BS. Look, I've got nothing against Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs. Great hitters, Hall of Famers. But nobody, at least nobody with one functioning brain cell, chooses to be Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs if they could be Willie Mays or Ted Williams. I don't care who allegedly said it. If they did, it was dumb.

I don't think the issue is being Mays or Williams.

But being a non-HOF, random "power hitter" type. 

[Benny B]

I can see the wheels grinding : Hmm...I could hit a home run and win the game right here, but I'm going to hit a single to "set the table" for my teammates instead. BS. Look, I've got nothing against Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs. Great hitters, Hall of Famers. But nobody, at least nobody with one functioning brain cell, chooses to be Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs if they could be Willie Mays or Ted Williams. I don't care who allegedly said it. If they did, it was dumb.

Tony Gwynn didn't choose to be anyone.  He was Tony Gwynn, and he had a pretty damn good career just being himself.

In fact, if Willie Mays and Ted Williams were just starting their careers today, I would be willing to bet that either one would sign a deal with the devil to be the "next Tony Gwynn" (Tony Gwynn Jr. notwithstanding).

[Lennys Tap]

I don't think the issue is being Mays or Williams.

But being a non-HOF, random "power hitter" type. 

If Tony Gwynn could have "easily" hit 35 dingers a year that's around 650 for his career. About what Mays did and what Williams would have done without his wartime service. I think suggesting he could have "easily" done that or done anything close to that is ridiculous.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If Tony Gwynn could have "easily" hit 35 dingers a year that's around 650 for his career. About what Mays did and what Williams would have done without his wartime service. I think suggesting he could have "easily" done that or done anything close to that is ridiculous.

I don't think he meant 35HRs a year for his entire career. I suspect there is nuance and meant during his prime that he could do that if asked to do that.  Athletes have primes, Matheny and Williams were basing their comments on what they saw and what they felt, as baseball players, he was capable of.

How's your Blackhawks wardrobe holding up?

[Lennys Tap]

I don't think he meant 35HRs a year for his entire career. I suspect there is nuance and meant during his prime that he could do that if asked to do that.  Athletes have primes, Matheny and Williams were basing their comments on what they saw and what they felt, as baseball players, he was capable of.

How's your Blackhawks wardrobe holding up?

When I read "easily" that sounds like a baseline, not the max in his best year.

Don't have a "Blackhawk" or any other team's wardrobe. Played sports at a high enough level that I was able to wear some pretty nice uniforms of my own. No interest in somebody else's.

[CTWarrior]

Just so I have this straight, are you suggesting that the guys hitting behind Gwynn during his career were equal to those hitting behind Clark in his career?

That's the argument you are making.  I think you will find with very little effort that is not a strong argument on your part.

I took the little effort.  Jack Clark played on poor SF Giants teams during much of his prime.  At any rate, teams, Clark played on scored and average of 667 runs/season and Gwynn for teams that averaged 691 runs/season (and I adjusted for the strike-shortened seasons) so in point of fact, Jack Clark had lesser teammates over the course of his career than did Gwynn, and despite this scored runs at an equal rate and drove them in at a higher rate.

[Lennys Tap]

I took the little effort.  Jack Clark played on poor SF Giants teams during much of his prime.  At any rate, teams, Clark played on scored and average of 667 runs/season and Gwynn for teams that averaged 691 runs/season (and I adjusted for the strike-shortened seasons) so in point of fact, Jack Clark had lesser teammates over the course of his career than did Gwynn, and despite this scored runs at an equal rate and drove them in at a higher rate.

Ding, ding, ding.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I believe I said guys hitting immediately behind Clark.  You're comparing an entire team's runs scored, meaning batters 1 through 9 and any PH's.  I'd take Clark's guys over the longhaul over Gwynn's, though both had teams in which there were star players. 

At any rate, good article from one of the early statisticians.  Called Gwynn was the best player of all time in getting hits.  Plus he wasn't a world class douche like Jack Clark.   


http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/sportingscene/2014/06/tony-gwynn-an-appreciation.html


I'm also a big Bill James fan, and James has Gwynn top 60 all time at any position, including pitcher and including Negro league players.  For position players, Gwynn is 40th all time.  Clark, doesn't get a sniff anywhere. Don't forget ball park, which OPS+ adjusts for.  Gwynn didn't get to play in a place like Yankees Stadium, or Fenway.

The greatest baseball mind of our time, Bill James, wrote in 2001 about the change in the game. James wrote that despite the power explosion, even during the steroid era, no one made a run at Hack Wilson’s single-season RBI record of 191. “Why?” James asked. “Individually, power hitters have had seasons which are as good as any in history — but they don’t drive in as many runs, and their teams do not score as many runs as the great hitting teams of the 1930s. Why? Because nobody is setting the table. We’ve got offenses now that are wall-to-wall power hitters. The only people who aren’t power hitters are the guys who don’t hit anything; there really aren’t any good hitters, other than Tony Gwynn…”

[CTWarrior]

I believe I said guys hitting immediately behind Clark.  You're comparing an entire team's runs scored, meaning batters 1 through 9 and any PH's.  I'd take Clark's guys over the longhaul over Gwynn's, though both had teams in which there were star players. 

Let's make sure I have this straight.  So your position is that the 5-6-7 hitters (the guys that would bat behind Clark) on teams that score less runs are better than the 3-4-5 hitters (the guys that bat behind Gwynn) on teams that score more runs?  You realize how ridiculous that is, right?

You are also correct that OPS+ adjusts for park, but Clark's OPS+ is better than Gwynn's.

At any rate my original point wasn't that Clark was a better player than Gwynn.  He was a good example of a guy with a much lower batting average who was actually as productive or more productive at doing what counts, i.e. putting runs on the scoreboard.  Most baseball fans would instinctively say that Gwynn was a far superior hitter to a guy like Clark when that is not true at all.

Gwynn's main advantage over Clark is his longevity and ability to avoid injury and stay on the field (despite not staying in peak physical condition, to say the least).  Plus Gwynn added more value on defense.  For those reasons, he rates higher (and rightfully so) on best lists, etc.

Also funny how you mention Bill James, who wrote about these guys when they were on the Padres together and noted then that Clark was the more productive hitter despite the batting averages and was the reason why I thought of him as the compare guy in the first place.  Also funny because a long time ago you and I han a lengthy argument about Nolan Ryan and I used James to back up a point and you knocked James' opinion in favor of Maury Allen. 

[77ncaachamps]

Late to the thread.

My Gwynn story takes place at Candlestick Park circa 1990.

Batting practice had just ended for the Padres and they were walking off.
A couple of them signed. I wanted Gwynn, Roberto Alomar and Benito Santiago.
Ironically - especially with the discussion in this thread - Jack Clark was on that team.

As I waited and called out to the remaining players, everyone headed to the locker room.

Tony was the only player to stay and sign EVERYTHING. Not one fan turned away.
Every ball, card, program, cap, etc. was signed as he made his way down the 3rd base/left field line.

He could've charged for his autos like Will Clark did, that's why he rarely signed at games. (Plus the dude has a little "southern dixie" in him.)

You tell me an MLB player who does that nowadays.

[buckchuckler]

Late to the thread.

My Gwynn story takes place at Candlestick Park circa 1990.

Batting practice had just ended for the Padres and they were walking off.
A couple of them signed. I wanted Gwynn, Roberto Alomar and Benito Santiago.
Ironically - especially with the discussion in this thread - Jack Clark was on that team.

As I waited and called out to the remaining players, everyone headed to the locker room.

Tony was the only player to stay and sign EVERYTHING. Not one fan turned away.
Every ball, card, program, cap, etc. was signed as he made his way down the 3rd base/left field line.

He could've charged for his autos like Will Clark did, that's why he rarely signed at games. (Plus the dude has a little "southern dixie" in him.)

You tell me an MLB player who does that nowadays.

Witnessed the same thing with Cal Ripken Jr.  On his farewell tour he stayed after each game and signed for everyone.  It was pretty cool. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Late to the thread.

My Gwynn story takes place at Candlestick Park circa 1990.

Batting practice had just ended for the Padres and they were walking off.
A couple of them signed. I wanted Gwynn, Roberto Alomar and Benito Santiago.
Ironically - especially with the discussion in this thread - Jack Clark was on that team.

As I waited and called out to the remaining players, everyone headed to the locker room.

Tony was the only player to stay and sign EVERYTHING. Not one fan turned away.
Every ball, card, program, cap, etc. was signed as he made his way down the 3rd base/left field line.

He could've charged for his autos like Will Clark did, that's why he rarely signed at games. (Plus the dude has a little "southern dixie" in him.)

You tell me an MLB player who does that nowadays.

It's weird, but if you had the last name of Clark it didn't seem to mix well with Gwynn.  Gwynn and Jack Clark did not get along very well in SD, of course Jack has worn out his welcome just about everywhere, including his radio gig.

Will Clark, he and Gwynn didn't get off so swimmingly either when Will Clark decided to use a homophobic slur toward one of the bat boys of the Padres.  Gwynn and a few Padres addressed it well. 

http://www.sonsofstevegarvey.com/2014/06/deadspin-tony-gwynn-tribute-contains.html

[MU82]

If Tony Gwynn could have "easily" hit 35 dingers a year that's around 650 for his career. About what Mays did and what Williams would have done without his wartime service. I think suggesting he could have "easily" done that or done anything close to that is ridiculous.

I agree with this. "Easily" implies that Gwynn could have been a consistently productive home-run hitter if he wanted to. I have heard the same claim (not from Williams but from others) that Ichiro also could be a big-HR guy "if he wanted to."

It's silliness, because anybody truly capable of "easily" hitting 40 HR is going to want to do it.

The guess is that Williams didn't really think Gwynn could be a 30-40 HR guy but that Gwynn could have hit quite a few more HRs if he changed his style some. The "easily" thing was hyperbole - which often comes with a compliment.

As for applying newer metrics, I agree with the comment that Gwynn believed a hit was more valuable than a walk - and that was common thinking for most of his era. I also agree that Gwynn probably would have had several 100 RBI years (or close to them) had he batted third rather than second.

Gwynn was a great hitter, an outstanding all-around player who could run the bases and field his position superbly (before he got fat) and a credit to the game.

[Boone]

Gwynn had unreal bat control. He put the ball in play and hit to all fields. Would rather watch this student of hitting choke up a little with 2 strikes and slap the ball to left for a single, than a player today, who never adjusts to the count and keeps trying to jack one out or go for the walk.

[Lennys Tap]

I agree with this. "Easily" implies that Gwynn could have been a consistently productive home-run hitter if he wanted to. I have heard the same claim (not from Williams but from others) that Ichiro also could be a big-HR guy "if he wanted to."

It's silliness, because anybody truly capable of "easily" hitting 40 HR is going to want to do it.

The guess is that Williams didn't really think Gwynn could be a 30-40 HR guy but that Gwynn could have hit quite a few more HRs if he changed his style some. The "easily" thing was hyperbole - which often comes with a compliment.

As for applying newer metrics, I agree with the comment that Gwynn believed a hit was more valuable than a walk - and that was common thinking for most of his era. I also agree that Gwynn probably would have had several 100 RBI years (or close to them) had he batted third rather than second.

Gwynn was a great hitter, an outstanding all-around player who could run the bases and field his position superbly (before he got fat) and a credit to the game.

Nice, non hyperbolic synopsis.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Lifetime Intentional Walks....respect


Tony Gwynn  12th all time, behind Bonds, Aaron, Pujols, McCovery, Guerrero, Griffey Jr, Brett, Stargell, Murray, Frank Robinson and Manny Ramirez.

Jack Clark 73rd

[CTWarrior]

Lifetime Intentional Walks....respect


Tony Gwynn  12th all time, behind Bonds, Aaron, Pujols, McCovery, Guerrero, Griffey Jr, Brett, Stargell, Murray, Frank Robinson and Manny Ramirez.

Jack Clark 73rd

You can keep making irrelevant comparisons all you want, but my only original point was that despite the large difference in batting average, Jack Clark put more runs on the board per PA than did Tony Gwynn, and there really aren't numbers to dispute that.  Yes Gwynn was a better human being and stayed healthier and lasted longer, but when he was in the lineup, Clark did a little more than Gwynn to put runs on the board.

Earlier in this discussion you used OPS+ as a park/era neutral stat to compare hitters.   A list of non-HOFers I watched play with OPS+ higher than or equal to Tony Gwynn

Barry Bonds
Mark McGwire
Dick Allen
Miguel Cabrera
Manny Ramirez
Edgar Martinez
Jim Thome
Albert Belle
Lance Berkman
Mike Piazza
Alex Rodriguez
Frank Howard
Andrew McCutcheon
Kevin Mitchell
Chipper Jones
Larry Walker
Price Fielder
Vladimir Guerrero
Gary Sheffield
Jason Giambi
David Ortiz
Carlos Delgado
Darryl Strawberry
Jack Clark
Will Clark
Pedro Guerrero
Reggie Smith
Ken Griffey, Jr
Gene Tenace
David Wright
Adrian Gonzalez
John Kruk
Evan Longoria
Fred McGriff
Boog Powell
Shin-Soo Choo
Todd Helton
Ryan Howard
Joe Mauer
Danny Tartabull
Jose Canseco
Rico Carty
Jim Edmonds
Juan Gonzalez
Josh Hamilton
Rafael Palmeiro
Ken Singleton
Mo Vaughn

There are plenty more older guys, too.  A lot of steroids suspects or not eligible yet guys on that list, but also a lot of guys who were not given much consideration at all for the hall of fame who were similarly productive to Tony Gwynn on a per rate basis.  My point is not to denigrate Tony Gwynn, who was a great hitter, just to point out that his type of hitter, high average, not a lot of walks, not a lot of power, are generally overrated as offensive players.

[Lennys Tap]

You can keep making irrelevant comparisons all you want, but my only original point was that despite the large difference in batting average, Jack Clark put more runs on the board per PA than did Tony Gwynn, and there really aren't numbers to dispute that.  Yes Gwynn was a better human being and stayed healthier and lasted longer, but when he was in the lineup, Clark did a little more than Gwynn to put runs on the board.

Earlier in this discussion you used OPS+ as a park/era neutral stat to compare hitters.   A list of non-HOFers I watched play with OPS+ higher than or equal to Tony Gwynn

Barry Bonds
Mark McGwire
Dick Allen
Miguel Cabrera
Manny Ramirez
Edgar Martinez
Jim Thome
Albert Belle
Lance Berkman
Mike Piazza
Alex Rodriguez
Frank Howard
Andrew McCutcheon
Kevin Mitchell
Chipper Jones
Larry Walker
Price Fielder
Vladimir Guerrero
Gary Sheffield
Jason Giambi
David Ortiz
Carlos Delgado
Darryl Strawberry
Jack Clark
Will Clark
Pedro Guerrero
Reggie Smith
Ken Griffey, Jr
Gene Tenace
David Wright
Adrian Gonzalez
John Kruk
Evan Longoria
Fred McGriff
Boog Powell
Shin-Soo Choo
Todd Helton
Ryan Howard
Joe Mauer
Danny Tartabull
Jose Canseco
Rico Carty
Jim Edmonds
Juan Gonzalez
Josh Hamilton
Rafael Palmeiro
Ken Singleton
Mo Vaughn

There are plenty more older guys, too.  A lot of steroids suspects or not eligible yet guys on that list, but also a lot of guys who were not given much consideration at all for the hall of fame who were similarly productive to Tony Gwynn on a per rate basis.  My point is not to denigrate Tony Gwynn, who was a great hitter, just to point out that his type of hitter, high average, not a lot of walks, not a lot of power, are generally overrated as offensive players.

Dead on, CT. Tony Gwynn was an artist. I loved watching him. And by all accounts a great guy, popular with fans and sportswriters alike. Add it all up and you have a great but very much overrated player.