MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: LCDutchman on February 01, 2011, 11:48:21 AM
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Like it or not, Indiana has improved dramatically in 2011. The injuries may have helped the rotation. Crean is starting to get traction. He is coaching and acting more like he did when he came to MU than when he left. Losing will do that to anyone. That being said the Big Ten is not the Big East by any stretch of the imagination.
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If St. John's is the #11 team in the Big East and beats Duke by 20+ points, then the 10th ranked team in the Big Ten should...nevermind.
Don't kid yourself. Look at the cupcakes he lined up for his team:
Florida Gulf Coast
Wright State
Mississippi Valley State
Evansville
North Carolina Central
Northwestern State
Savannah State
SIUE
South Carolina State
and a Northern Iowa team that lost to the cellar dwelling Iowa
Two big ten wins, both at home: Michigan and #20 Illinois.
They'll win maybe one more: Iowa at home.
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Indiana was little shook of in past but now they are going better and better.
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Err...after losing to NU tonight, looks like they'll end with a worse conference record than last year. Still gotta play the games though.
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Err...after losing to NU tonight, looks like they'll end with a worse conference record than last year. Still gotta play the games though.
Considering they're playing without 3 starters, not surprising. Want to double the bet? ;D
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Considering they're playing without 3 starters, not surprising. Want to double the bet? ;D
They're playing without ONE starter - from LAST YEAR - Creek. He was so bad this year his minutes were dwindling (think he was coming off the bench) before he got hurt again. Jones and Watford have missed some time but were both back for tonight's home loss to Northwestern and have been for awhile. After tonight TC has a record of 8-42 in conference, 8-44 counting the post season tourney.
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They're playing without ONE starter - from LAST YEAR - Creek. He was so bad this year his minutes were dwindling (think he was coming off the bench) before he got hurt again. Jones and Watford have missed some time but were both back for tonight's home loss to Northwestern and have been for awhile. After tonight TC has a record of 8-42 in conference, 8-44 counting the post season tourney.
That's cute, but we're talking about this year's team and they have been playing without 3 starters for significant stretches. Watford is playing with a broken bone in his hand...I wonder if you need your hand for basketball? Crazy how rosters change each year.
Would you like in on the action Lenny? It will be like picking options...should be right up your alley.
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Considering they're playing without 3 starters, not surprising. Want to double the bet? ;D
Ah, the excuses you'll make for Crean. Wasn't this the year he was suppose to show improvement and most likely be an NIT team?
He'll get a few more years, and if no success, they'll let him go. He will likely go .500 this year and get a NIT bit and NCAAs the following years.
Seems like you agree with me more than you'd like to admit. Except, he still isn't obtaining even your modest levels of "success".
Double the bet? Would that mean I would have to wear IU underwear if I lost? Nah, I 'm not willing to risk my ass being exposed to that kind of filth.
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May 4, 2010 Chicos Said (about IU)
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20524.0
He will get over .500 this year. All he has to do is have his team improve 6 games in the win column. They likely would have been .500 this year if not for the loss of their best player to injury. I'd say 17-15 this year or somewhere in that realm.
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January 26, 2010
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=17568.0
They'll be NIT next year and NCAA the year after. I'll collect my debt from Rocky in the process.
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Indiana's record under Crean:
2009 = 6-25 (1-17)
2010 = 10-21 (4-14)
2011 = (a/o Feb 20) = 12-15 (3-10)
Chicos, you've been wrong on IU since March 30, 2008 and I see no reason why you'll be correct going forward.
Going forward only two words matter, Cody Zeller. Dickie V has proclaimed Zeller a program changer. No more excuses. Time to show something.
If Crean doesn't "get it done" with Zeller next year, you'll be taking pictures of yourself on November 1, 2012. "Get it done" is defined as NIT and above .500 overall and 8-8 in the B10. Then pre-season pick for NCAA for the 2012 season and other top 15 recruiting class.
My money is on Rocky
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That's cute, but we're talking about this year's team and they have been playing without 3 starters for significant stretches. Watford is playing with a broken bone in his hand...I wonder if you need your hand for basketball? Crazy how rosters change each year.
Would you like in on the action Lenny? It will be like picking options...should be right up your alley.
Here are the "pesky facts". Indiana has played no games (zero) without Creek, Watford AND Jones. In Big 10 games in which they all played IU is 1-4. In Big 10 games in which they are missing just Creek (5.8 ppg, 2.2 rb, .8 asst, 1.2 to) IU is 0-3. IU is 2-4 when missing 2 of their "big three" (Jones and Creek or Wadford and Creek). Conclusion: They stink when all three or two of the three play. They still stink when only one of the three plays but not as bad. Maybe if all three actually did go down at once IU could contend for that coveted NIT bid you predicted.
Regarding your bet with Rocky, I think you'll win, but not because Indiana doesn't want to fire TC. I just think that given economic realities noone has the balls to tell the taxpayers they have to pay the most expensive teacher at Indiana a boatload of dough for not working.
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Regarding your bet with Rocky, I think you'll win, but not because Indiana doesn't want to fire TC. I just think that given economic realities noone has the balls to tell the taxpayers they have to pay the most expensive teacher at Indiana a boatload of dough for not working.
Everything IU basketball wants to be is going to unfold in the next two years now that Crean has Zeller. Dickie V said he is a program changer. Well if the program does not change with Zeller, it never will under Crean and will stagnate until they fire him.
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May 4, 2010 Chicos Said (about IU)
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20524.0
He will get over .500 this year. All he has to do is have his team improve 6 games in the win column. They likely would have been .500 this year if not for the loss of their best player to injury. I'd say 17-15 this year or somewhere in that realm.
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January 26, 2010
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=17568.0
They'll be NIT next year and NCAA the year after. I'll collect my debt from Rocky in the process.
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Indiana's record under Crean:
2009 = 6-25 (1-17)
2010 = 10-21 (4-14)
2011 = (a/o Feb 20) = 12-15 (3-10)
Chicos, you've been wrong on IU since March 30, 2008 and I see no reason why you'll be correct going forward.
Going forward only two words matter, Cody Zeller. Dickie V has proclaimed Zeller a program changer. No more excuses. Time to show something.
If Crean doesn't "get it done" with Zeller next year, you'll be taking pictures of yourself on November 1, 2012. "Get it done" is defined as NIT and above .500 overall and 8-8 in the B10. Then pre-season pick for NCAA for the 2012 season and other top 15 recruiting class.
My money is on Rocky
My predictions were assuming healthy bodies Another84. When 3 starters are out, that changes things considerably. They also lost Michel, their 7 footer when the NCAA ruled him ineligible. So when you're out there saying I was wrong, it would be nice to at least put on your thinking cap and take in that predictions are made with the assumptions the roster is in tact. We all know if MU had 3 starters go down or a key player ruled ineligible, you certainly would say that's not an issue...LOL
Would they have beaten MSU with Jones and Watford at 100% (Watford broke a bone in his hand in that game in the second half). Yes. Would IU have likely beaten Iowa at home at full strength? Yes. Etc.
Lenny, I never said 3 starters at the same time, did I? No, I didn't. My response when I said they're playing without 3 starters was in reference to the comment that they will have a "worse conference record than last year". This year they have played without 3 starters in a number of games. FACT.
And sorry Lenny, you are dead wrong on your analysis about them not wanting to cut him lose because of economics. They have the resources to do it anytime they want. They are hanging on to him because he's running a clean program, he has stellar recruits coming in the next 2+ years, etc. Just because you and others want to dream up facts doesn't mean you are entitled to your own set of facts as you wish them to be.
They are the 3rd youngest team in the Big Ten. Their upcoming few classes are absolutely loaded. For you guys that love star rankings so much, it blows anything away that we've seen in decades. I'm not much into this stars crap, but I know some of you are...here they are.
Yogi Ferrell...5 star
Cody Zeller...5 star
Collin Hartman...4 star
Devin Davis...4 star
Peter Jurkin...3 star
Ron Patterson...4 star
Hanner Perea...5 star
Austin Etherington...3 star
Now, if he doesn't get it done once all those kids arrive, then you're right. The Big Ten will be down slightly next year. IU will finally not be one of the youngest teams in the conference and assuming they can shake the unbelievable injury bug, they should be fine. But, since they haven't been able to shake the injury bug, all those predictions are predicated on them actually having starters that can stay healthy.
In the future, I'll make sure to put a big * so we can use our noggins when taking into account major injuries. This just in...I think the Packers have a great chance to repeat next year and will predict it to be so *assumes Aaron Rodgers is actually healthy for the year and in the playoffs, as are the key components to his offense and defense.
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Crean did what he had to do to get his recruiting turned around. Little pay for play, that is becoming very popular with AAU coaches wielding much influence.
I think Indiana will be much better in two years under Crean and I'll enjoy watching Crean bring back Indiana to relevancy.
Crean is a good coach who will maximize his talent and install good defense (that hacks a lot).
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I love the "our 7'er is ineligible" mantra that u2 is planted as the excuse for the year.
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My predictions were assuming healthy bodies Another84. When 3 starters are out, that changes things considerably. They also lost Michel, their 7 footer when the NCAA ruled him ineligible. So when you're out there saying I was wrong, it would be nice to at least put on your thinking cap and take in that predictions are made with the assumptions the roster is in tact.
Ahhh, the backtracker is back at it! Always an excuse. Can you recalculate your prediction based on the '3 starters (who?!)' being out? Maybe also include Hummel being out for Purdue... or MSU's issues... heck, even throw in the injuries at Minnesota of Al Nolen and Mo Walker along with Devoe Joseph's transfer into your revision and let us know how your prediction would have changed...
Good luck to your team in 2016 when you might stop giving them a free pass.
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Ahhh, the backtracker is back at it! Always an excuse. Can you recalculate your prediction based on the '3 starters (who?!)' being out? Maybe also include Hummel being out for Purdue... or MSU's issues... heck, even throw in the injuries at Minnesota of Al Nolen and Mo Walker along with Devoe Joseph's transfer into your revision and let us know how your prediction would have changed...
Good luck to your team in 2016 when you might stop giving them a free pass.
No free passes Jay Bee, but when you lose a few games by 1 point, 2 points, or 4 points and you have some of your best guys not playing, it effects your team. Minnesota lost one guy. Michigan State kicked one guy off a team. That's quite different than having 3 guys, all starters, down...1 permanently and the other two having missed games or having to play hurt.
The funny thing is that I truly believe you and Another84 believe they won't be good until 2016....wow are you guys in for a surprise.*
*This assumes the team is healthy
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No free passes Jay Bee, but when you lose a few games by 1 point, 2 points, or 4 points and you have some of your best guys not playing, it effects your team. Minnesota lost one guy. Michigan State kicked one guy off a team. That's quite different than having 3 guys, all starters, down...1 permanently and the other two having missed games or having to play hurt.
The funny thing is that I truly believe you and Another84 believe they won't be good until 2016....wow are you guys in for a surprise.*
*This assumes the team is healthy
Your original claim that "they're playing without 3 starters" was offbase, but I'm happy to see you backtracking on that one as well.
Minnesota lost Mo Walker to injury, Devoe Joseph to transfer, and Al Nolen to injury. They have their only three-pointer shooter playing the point because of Joseph and Nolen being out. To claim that Minnesota 'lost one guy' is wrong.
As for I4, I simply said I don't expect you to stop with the free passes for them until at least 2016 (although more likely you will never stop so long as your guy is there).
"Won't be good" is subjective - It's Indiana. What does "good" mean for Indiana? Are you going to the BTT, bro?
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No free passes Jay Bee, but when you lose a few games by 1 point, 2 points, or 4 points and you have some of your best guys not playing, it effects your team. Minnesota lost one guy. Michigan State kicked one guy off a team. That's quite different than having 3 guys, all starters, down...1 permanently and the other two having missed games or having to play hurt.
The funny thing is that I truly believe you and Another84 believe they won't be good until 2016....wow are you guys in for a surprise.*
*This assumes the team is healthy
How many times does a lie have to be repeated before those not paying attention will accept it as truth?
1. Creek was NOT a starter when he was lost to injury. He was a reserve whose playing time was dwindling because of his poor play.
2. That leaves Jones and Watford, who each missed 3 games.
3. In the TOTAL of 6 games missed by one of TWO starters Indiana is 2-4. In 8 games in which all of their starters have played they are 1-7. It's likely they'll finish 1-11 in games with all their starters playing.
However inconvenient to an Indiana apologist such as yourself those are the facts. Repeatedly misrepresenting them won't change them.
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No matter how you dress it up, Indiana has been absolutely pathetic under Crean, even give expectations. You can't lay out a sob story about Sampson in 2008 as an excuse forever.
If "It's Indiana", that place should recruit itself like it has in the past. An Indiana team this year in the Big Ten should not be this bad.
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No matter how you dress it up, Indiana has been absolutely pathetic under Crean, even give expectations. You can't lay out a sob story about Sampson in 2008 as an excuse forever.
If "It's Indiana", that place should recruit itself like it has in the past. An Indiana team this year in the Big Ten should not be this bad.
Name another team that started practically from scratch...please name one while also having legitimate handcuffs on how they could rebuild. I'd love to see an example since you say they shouldn't have been this bad. Please then, show us an example in which a team started with ONE PLAYER returning who had less than 10 career points scored AND a team that was thought to be going on major probation before the first major signing period (which means they lost out on an entire year of recruits).
Please...I'm all ears on the examples.......
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In the future, I'll make sure to put a big * so we can use our noggins when taking into account major injuries. This just in...I think the Packers have a great chance to repeat next year and will predict it to be so *assumes Aaron Rodgers is actually healthy for the year and in the playoffs, as are the key components to his offense and defense.
This just in. The Packers lost lots of key components on offense and defense THIS YEAR. They could have felt sorry for themselves and made excuses, I suppose. They decided to win the Super Bowl instead.
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Indiana will be nowhere near It's Indiana once again next year.. not sure how much longer people will put up with it. Not everyone is a blind fan boy. I think they'll be hoping for a middle of the pack finish going into next year and would be pleased with a 5th or 6th place Big Ten finish. Don't know if they can get there, but It's Indiana doesn't mean much. Who knows, maybe they can try and compete for a conference title by 2016 or so. As long as the AAU relationship continues to give them kids, they should have some decent players. Of course, the current coach will always be a hurdle to achieve greatness.
They are bringing in a couple of traditional guys next year, which should appease some of the fans. Congrats!
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Over 72% of their games he started numb nuts. Don't tell me a guy who starts 72% of your games isn't a starter.
Dude I know you get to operate by a different set of rules than others on this site, but can you try to chill with the personal attacks and name calling?
As for starter... didn't Creek come off the bench for the first five Big Ten games of the season? Each and everyone one? And those were the last games he played this year...
In those games he played 21, 13, 24, 15 and 13 minutes and often had the exact same time on the court as one of the starting guards... He wasn't a starter. He was a guy that was coming off the bench and not playing well.
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I love how these posts disappear.... ::)
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How many times does a lie have to be repeated before those not paying attention will accept it as truth?
1. Creek was NOT a starter when he was lost to injury. He was a reserve whose playing time was dwindling because of his poor play.
2. That leaves Jones and Watford, who each missed 3 games.
3. In the TOTAL of 6 games missed by one of TWO starters Indiana is 2-4. In 8 games in which all of their starters have played they are 1-7. It's likely they'll finish 1-11 in games with all their starters playing.
However inconvenient to an Indiana apologist such as yourself those are the facts. Repeatedly misrepresenting them won't change them.
I tried to answer your post but it was deleted. The other day some of my posts were deleted. It's crazy when you can't respond to your stuff without a moderator killing it, yet same moderators to this day allow racial comments to be made against posters. Really incredible.
I'll simply say this, Creek started 72% of IU's games...that makes him a starter. He got hurt after Colorado and they backed him off minutes...that's why he didn't play as a starter for a the games immediately after Colorado. Not sure why you didn't include that in your post, but you didn't. You'll have to answer that.
The games that the three missed, please...you again do us all a disservice with your nonsense. Creek, Jones and Watford are their top scorers (1, 2 and 4), Jones the top assist guy, Watford near the top in rebounds, etc. Pivotal players. Your 1-7 comment is asinine. It's as if you're saying 1-7 with these guys has no bearing on who they played....wow. Funny that the 1-7 occurred against teams like #1 Ohio State, Kentucky, etc while the games they had a "better record" when not all of them played were against teams not even in that same ballpark. Which begs the question if all of them played, would they have beaten MSU (they lost by 1 with Jones and Creek not playing and Watford with broken hand), by Iowa by 1 point (Jones, Creek and Watford didn't play), etc, etc. But you would rather make it as if the 1-7 stretch was somehow against the same calibre of teams. WOW
So keep going with your half truths and incomplete assertions. I'm sure this response will be deleted as well, just like the ones the other day for no reason at all.
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Dude I know you get to operate by a different set of rules than others on this site, but can you try to chill with the personal attacks and name calling?
As for starter... didn't Creek come off the bench for the first five Big Ten games of the season? Each and everyone one? And those were the last games he played this year...
In those games he played 21, 13, 24, 15 and 13 minutes and often had the exact same time on the court as one of the starting guards... He wasn't a starter. He was a guy that was coming off the bench and not playing well.
Dude, I know you rarely get the facts straight so let me help you. Did he start 72% of their games and then got hurt so they eased back on him? I'm not talking the knee fracture in January, I'm talking his December injury. You'll note that the first games following the injury he played only 13 and 15 minutes, SEASON LOWS. Why do you and Lenny ignore that injury following the Colorado game? Hmmm. Hmmm.
Was he the player he was last year....nope. That's the shame of it, classy kid. IU has been crushed with injuries the last two years.
I wonder if MU had 3 starters from this year's team miss the amount of games IU's players have (or play with broken bones at 3/4 level) if any of our fans would raise it as an issue. Nah...probably not, they wouldn't say a thing.
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Name another team that started practically from scratch...please name one while also having legitimate handcuffs on how they could rebuild. I'd love to see an example since you say they shouldn't have been this bad. Please then, show us an example in which a team started with ONE PLAYER returning who had less than 10 career points scored AND a team that was thought to be going on major probation before the first major signing period (which means they lost out on an entire year of recruits).
Please...I'm all ears on the examples.......
I would have to see how Duke, UNC, UCLA, Kansas, or Kentucky would do. They are the only way to have an apples to apples comparison.
And it's not 2008 anymore. That year, he gets some slack. But, year 3 IU is getting swept by Iowa and in the basement of the B11.
If IU was a bubble team/in the NIT, then you could invoke some sympathy for where they started. I mean, it's pathetic and I have no idea why you are defending it. There is no context that helps this. Context explains why they are not the IU of hold.
Crean is not at Southeastern Hawaii Tech. He is at INDIANA. Crean had a top 5 class in 2009 under the threat of probation so I don't know what that really means. Who would he have gotten in 2009 that he missed?
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I wonder if MU had 3 starters from this year's team miss the amount of games IU's players have (or play with broken bones at 3/4 level) if any of our fans would raise it as an issue. Nah...probably not, they wouldn't say a thing.
MU and IU is not an apples to apples comparison. Injuries can be devastating, but at IU in year 3, the next man in should be able to win 5 or 6 Big Ten games at IU. On average, MU should not be able to recruit the depth/talent that IU should be able to recruit.
For an analogy, if Mark Texiera gets hurt, then the Yankees on average will have more talent to make up for his injury and replace him. They are the Yankees. If Prince Fielder went down, the Brewers would not likely have the resources to replace him. "It's Indiana" is closer to the Yankees than the Brewers, while Marquette is closer to the Brewers. Injuries to starters shouldn't mean the same thing to each team.
That being said, Buzz has had 3 recruiting classes and Crean has had 3 recruiting classes. Buzz's recruiting classes have survived transfers and injuries. Fulce, Liam, JMay, Reggie Smith, etc. all could have played big roles. MU has survived those setbacks.
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However you want to slice it, Indiana, thus far has only played 3 games against CURRENT Top 25 teams - Kentucky, Wisconsin, and Purdue. However, they will get to double the amount here in the next couple of weeks as they play Purdue, Wisconsin, Ohio State.
IU been playing a significantly inferior schedule than has MU - so it is really pointless to try to compare teams.
As for the "shackles" placed on Indiana due to the Sampson mess - they lost 1 scholarship for 1 year, and the number of phone calls they were able to make to recruits was reduced. No post season penalties. A slap on the wrist at best.
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Another misnomer about how "bad" the situation at Indiana was upon the time of Crean's arrival was the program's recent history - actually, IU compares VERY favorable to MU over the 10 year decade of 2000-2010:
2008 0-1 Lost to Arkansas in first round, 86-72
2007 1-1 Defeated Gonzaga in first round, 70-57
Lost to UCLA in second round, 54-49
2006 1-1 Defeated San Diego State in first round, 87-83
Lost to Gonzaga in second round, 90-80
2003 1-1 Defeated Alabama in first round, 67-62
Lost to Pittsburgh in second round, 74-52
2002 5-1 Defeated Utah in first round, 75-56
Defeated North Carolina-Wilmington in second round, 76-67
Defeated Duke in regional semifinal, 74-73
Defeated Kent State in regional final, 81-69
Defeated Oklahoma in National Semifinal, 73-64
Lost to Maryland in National Championship, 64-52
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Are you people freaking kidding me?
Blaming Indiana's pathetic season on the loss of Guy-Marc Michel??
I caught an interview with Cream on the radio the other day and listened for a moment...typical Cream...." I will never make excuses....but when Guy-Marc Michel was ruled ineligible that really hurt us"....
I about lost my lunch and turned the channel. Sounds like others have adopted this battle cry.
It is so pathetic ...it is akin to Crean saying the same thing about Kinsella breaking his foot.
Guy-Marc Michel sucks and is just another in a long line of terrible Crean Juco recruits. The guy averaged 7 points a agme last year playing Juco ball in Idaho!! Playing the lowest rungs of Juco ball. We are not talking about Hutchinson or Indian Hills here people we are talking HS equivalent talent and this "Guy" was dropping 7 a game and 6!!!!!!! boards !!
ROFL!!! :D :D :D :D :o :o :o :o ::) ::) ::) ::) :'( :'( :'( :D :D :D :D
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I would have to see how Duke, UNC, UCLA, Kansas, or Kentucky would do. They are the only way to have an apples to apples comparison.
And it's not 2008 anymore. That year, he gets some slack. But, year 3 IU is getting swept by Iowa and in the basement of the B11.
If IU was a bubble team/in the NIT, then you could invoke some sympathy for where they started. I mean, it's pathetic and I have no idea why you are defending it. There is no context that helps this. Context explains why they are not the IU of hold.
Crean is not at Southeastern Hawaii Tech. He is at INDIANA. Crean had a top 5 class in 2009 under the threat of probation so I don't know what that really means. Who would he have gotten in 2009 that he missed?
So in short, there are no examples. Thank you. That's exactly the point. No one has had to start with a completely fresh slate. NO ONE. PERIOD.
And this idea that Buzz has survived 3 transfers...of course when you have a bunch of talent already on the team. It's a lot easier to withstand 3 transfers when you have talent ALREADY on the team.
You're right, this is INDIANA....that's why they have all those 5 star and 4 star players coming in starting next season. That's exactly right.
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Are you people freaking kidding me?
Blaming Indiana's pathetic season on the loss of Guy-Marc Michel??
According to the moderators over at Peegs, you had quite a little run over there pretending to be a IU fan. Did you have fun before you were banned? LOL
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Chicos - Are you mocking somebody for getting banned from a website?
You just got off a suspension from THIS SITE!!!
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So in short, there are no examples. Thank you. That's exactly the point. No one has had to start with a completely fresh slate. NO ONE. PERIOD.
Maybe there are no examples of UNC, Duke, UCLA, KU, UK having a 2008-2009 season that Indiana had. However, IT IS NOT 2008 ANYMORE. One recruiting class leaves in 2008, and you are in the basement of the Big Ten three years later, supposedly because of that? It's fair that they are not Sweet 16 contenders like an IU team should be 8/10 years, but not this.
There is nothing relevant about no other top 6 team having a 2008 like Indiana had. I am not sure where in logic you need to have an example or precedent in order to analyze a situation. The old eye ball test isn't lying here.
You can look at a disaster and say that there is no example of a big time school having this happen and then therefore people are irrational for calling things like it is. I didn't know you need an exact example or precedent to have any credibility in criticizing a basketball program.
More power to people who say "Let's wait until the recruits get here." There is some truth to that because talent wins. But three years in and nothing is built there besides the new practice facility.
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Another misnomer about how "bad" the situation at Indiana was upon the time of Crean's arrival was the program's recent history - actually, IU compares VERY favorable to MU over the 10 year decade of 2000-2010:
2008 0-1 Lost to Arkansas in first round, 86-72
2007 1-1 Defeated Gonzaga in first round, 70-57
Lost to UCLA in second round, 54-49
2006 1-1 Defeated San Diego State in first round, 87-83
Lost to Gonzaga in second round, 90-80
2003 1-1 Defeated Alabama in first round, 67-62
Lost to Pittsburgh in second round, 74-52
2002 5-1 Defeated Utah in first round, 75-56
Defeated North Carolina-Wilmington in second round, 76-67
Defeated Duke in regional semifinal, 74-73
Defeated Kent State in regional final, 81-69
Defeated Oklahoma in National Semifinal, 73-64
Lost to Maryland in National Championship, 64-52
Tell me ners, what was the roster on opening day under Crean at IU...how many returning players. Thanks for playing
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Chicos - Are you mocking somebody for getting banned from a website?
You just got off a suspension from THIS SITE!!!
Suspension is the same as a ban...wow, who knew.
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Maybe there are no examples of UNC, Duke, UCLA, KU, UK having a 2008-2009 season that Indiana had. However, IT IS NOT 2008 ANYMORE. One recruiting class leaves in 2008, and you are in the basement of the Big Ten three years later, supposedly because of that? It's fair that they are not Sweet 16 contenders like an IU team should be 8/10 years, but not this.
You're right, it's not 2008 anymore. That's probably why these guys are coming in
Yogi Ferrell...5 star
Cody Zeller...5 star
Collin Hartman...4 star
Devin Davis...4 star
Peter Jurkin...3 star
Ron Patterson...4 star
Hanner Perea...5 star
Austin Etherington...3 star
When's the last time MU had a 5 star player...let alone 3?
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You're right, it's not 2008 anymore. That's probably why these guys are coming in
Yogi Ferrell...5 star
Cody Zeller...5 star
Collin Hartman...4 star
Devin Davis...4 star
Peter Jurkin...3 star
Ron Patterson...4 star
Hanner Perea...5 star
Austin Etherington...3 star
When's the last time MU had a 5 star player...let alone 3?
I have no idea how MU is relevant here. IU/MU are not the same.
That's great that new recruits are coming. But, that is not really relevant to what we are talking about either.
It's ok to admit that IU has not met expectations. They have not by any means. Maybe they will in the future.
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IU has actually met expectations to those people that matter, that's the entirely the point. They haven't met YOUR EXPECTATIONS. They haven't met LENNY's expectations. They haven't met Mr. Hayward's\Canadian Dimes expectations. They haven't met NERS expectations.
The funny thing is, McRobbie and Glass and the other leaders at IU, you know, the guys that actually HIRE and FIRE people based on....drum roll...EXPECTATIONS...are keeping him around for the long haul. Why is that? Well certainly if they weren't meeting expectations they would fire him...wouldn't they? They just cleaned house in football, again. Expectations weren't being met in football. That's what these guys get paid to do. They look at the expectations before the season, then they factor in things like injuries and such, and they use a human calculus and put all that into the evaluation.
So why is it that basketball, their FLAGSHIP sport and one that does not make as much money as football, is allowed to keep going as is and football, where they are an afterthought is turned over? Odd. Or is it?
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I get a little confused as to who/what you are defending. Is Crean responsible for this recruiting haul or is it Indiana and its tradition? The reason I ask is that you ask the question, "When is the last time Marquette had a 5 star?" Of course, the man you love to go to bat for was here for 9 years. Are you calling him out for his recruiting failures? Are you asking why Buzz Williams can't land a 5-star? It's very convoluted.
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Chicos, do you believe Marquette would be in a better situation right now had he stayed?
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IU has actually met expectations to those people that matter, that's the entirely the point. They haven't met YOUR EXPECTATIONS. They haven't met LENNY's expectations. They haven't met Mr. Hayward's\Canadian Dimes expectations. They haven't met NERS expectations.
The funny thing is, McRobbie and Glass and the other leaders at IU, you know, the guys that actually HIRE and FIRE people based on....drum roll...EXPECTATIONS...are keeping him around for the long haul. Why is that? Well certainly if they weren't meeting expectations they would fire him...wouldn't they? They just cleaned house in football, again. Expectations weren't being met in football. That's what these guys get paid to do. They look at the expectations before the season, then they factor in things like injuries and such, and they use a human calculus and put all that into the evaluation.
So why is it that basketball, their FLAGSHIP sport and one that does not make as much money as football, is allowed to keep going as is and football, where they are an afterthought is turned over? Odd. Or is it?
That's fine that you and the AD's at IU are happy with the product. As a basketball fan, I am calling it like it is. Three years in and nothing but a lot of smoke and mirrors. You of course give him a shot to prove it with his incoming recruits. It'd be dumb to fire Crean. But there is no way that when they hired Crean they expected this in year 3. There is no way they expect to lose to Michigan and Iowa at Assembly even given these injuries that keep getting discussed.
O well. I guess 2008's offseason was tough so IU shouldn't expect to have progressed to winning home games against bottom feeder Big Ten teams by 2011.
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Chicos, do you believe Marquette would be in a better situation right now had he stayed?
Interesting question. We would have had Tyshawn Taylor, Creek, etc, etc. We likely would have had Jamil Wilson from the very start. From a consistency standpoint, I believe we would have stayed above the 8th place spot and not in the 11th place we're in now. Recruiting was really clicking at that point.
Having said that, it was an opportunity I think was right for him to go and I don't begrudge him for that, though I don't like how he did it.
The question isn't really about RIGHT NOW, it's about where are we going to be longer term. We won't know that for a little while longer.
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I get a little confused as to who/what you are defending. Is Crean responsible for this recruiting haul or is it Indiana and its tradition? The reason I ask is that you ask the question, "When is the last time Marquette had a 5 star?" Of course, the man you love to go to bat for was here for 9 years. Are you calling him out for his recruiting failures? Are you asking why Buzz Williams can't land a 5-star? It's very convoluted.
Let me help you through your confusion which was certainly my poor ability to explain it. My bad. In my opinion, it's Indiana that is largely responsible, that's why he left MU to begin with. IU has more upside. Way way way more in state talent, much better national profile, etc. In answering the question for HoopsMalone, he said it's Indiana. He's right, and that's why they are now starting to haul in players in bushels. The difference is that some of you think that should have started from day one, and that's where you have been wrong on this from day one.
They were under a cloud that the NCAA was going to hammer them, so that killed a lot of their first recruiting class potential (Teague, etc). They started with one player returning who was essentially the 12th man. Everyone knew they were going to suck hard which only made recruiting harder. They had devastating injuries, etc.
All that said, despite three years of "missed expectations" (your expectations, not those of IU), they're landing their best classes NOW. Why is that? Why is it that with all these missed expectations from MU fans (LOL, as if they know how IU works), are they sticking with that regime. Lenny claims it's money which is so laughable it makes me giggle. There is so much money at IU to pay off coaches it's incredible. They just did it with football. Mark Cuban can write one check and it's taken care of in a heartbeat. So why is it that the IU President and AD can't see these expectations but all these MU fans can? Incredible, really incredible. Maybe MU fans should run IU since the IU folks running the show clearly don't understand how to run their program. LOL
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I think Crean reached his ceiling at Marquette and had to move on. (He could have handled it better but that's a different arguement.)
I believe Buzz is getting much better recruits than Crean would be getting had he stayed at Marquette. If there wasn't playing time to offer, Crean seemed to struggle getting quality recruits.
Buzz is a young game coach who makes mistakes, but as he gets experience he will improve.
Marquette is better off with Buzz than Crean in my opinion.
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I think Crean reached his ceiling at Marquette and had to move on. (He could have handled it better but that's a different arguement.)
I believe Buzz is getting much better recruits than Crean would be getting had he stayed at Marquette. If there wasn't playing time to offer, Crean seemed to struggle getting quality recruits.
Buzz is a young game coach who makes mistakes, but as he gets experience he will improve.
Marquette is better off with Buzz than Crean in my opinion.
Then that begs the question if Buzz is getting "much better recruits than Crean" why are we performing below Crean's teams. Right? That's my concern.
I think some people believe college basketball is 90% recruiting and you just throw the ball out there. I don't quite see it that way. Recruiting is certainly HUGE and more than 50%. You can't win without good basketball players. Having said that, there are teams (like UW-Madison) that win more consistently than we do with less heralded players because they have outstanding coaching.
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I don't think we are performing below Crean's Marquette teams. In 2004 and 2005 we had two NBA players on the roster and went to the NIT.
You can't have a NCAA season every year even with good talent. North Carolina and UConn missed the tourny last year. Michigan State brought back almost all of it's Final Four team from last year and may miss the tournament. Does this make Roy Williams, Jim Calhoun, and Tom Izzo bad coaches?
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Don't forget to count the Spring Creaning that occurred like the cat who flung the greenery at Tommy's coconut like he was playing a game on the midway at the state fair.
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http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=170&f=2353&t=7217148 (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=170&f=2353&t=7217148)
This is precious. Discussion of the CBI. ;D
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The banner part got me real loose.
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The difference is that some of you think that should have started from day one, and that's where you have been wrong on this from day one.
No one was expecting Calipari style recruiting, but people were expecting more talent than this on the floor. I don't know what is so controversial about saying that. It's not get Josh Selby/John Wall or else Crean is a bust. But he has to be doing better recruiting wise.
He's not exactly turning the players he has into a good team either. This is still no walk in the park. They, like we are experiencing at MU, don't have players who have played together very long. They really are not dealing with that adversity very well over there. I don't know what is so controversial about saying that.
If I were an IU fan, I would be excited about the recruiting classes too. I would not want Crean fired because I would not want to lose those recruits. But these first three years would concern me. There are few glimmers of hope on the court, and his Calvin Sampson excuse can only last for so long. Next year, we will have to wait for Zeller to develop and then get experience playing with the 2012 players.
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IU has actually met expectations to those people that matter, that's the entirely the point. They haven't met YOUR EXPECTATIONS. They haven't met LENNY's expectations. They haven't met Mr. Hayward's\Canadian Dimes expectations. They haven't met NERS expectations.
The funny thing is, McRobbie and Glass and the other leaders at IU, you know, the guys that actually HIRE and FIRE people based on....drum roll...EXPECTATIONS...are keeping him around for the long haul. Why is that? Well certainly if they weren't meeting expectations they would fire him...wouldn't they? They just cleaned house in football, again. Expectations weren't being met in football. That's what these guys get paid to do. They look at the expectations before the season, then they factor in things like injuries and such, and they use a human calculus and put all that into the evaluation.
So why is it that basketball, their FLAGSHIP sport and one that does not make as much money as football, is allowed to keep going as is and football, where they are an afterthought is turned over? Odd. Or is it?
In year 3 of the Tom Crean era Indiana is 3-11 in conference and appear headed for a last place 3-15 finish. To say that this meets anyone's expectations is ridiculous. NOBODY thought they were signing up for this. The fact that his bosses are ok with TC bribing the coach of the top AAU program in the state speaks to their desperation. The good news for TC and IU is that the bribes are apparently paying dividends.
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Tell me ners, what was the roster on opening day under Crean at IU...how many returning players. Thanks for playing
Much like Buzz experienced, Crean experienced at IU - some of the players that were there when he took over chose to transfer - Jordan Crawford, Armin Bassett, to name a couple. Clearly Buzz had it good his first year - after that, though MU didn't have too much in the cupboard. The reality is Buzz's recruiting has been much better than Tom Crean's, and thus the significant differntial in performance this year. Tom Crean has/had the benefit of 9 years of coaching experience to point to, 1 Final Four, D-Wade, and the IU legacy to sell - yet still, 3 years in is scuffling along in the Big 10. Buzz now has 100% of his players at MU, and has us positioned in the middle of the pack of the highly competitve Big East - and with MU playing more games against Top 25 programs than any other program this year.
It would be nice to see you champion and defend the Marquette program/current coach as much and as hard as you do IU and Crean. Why can you not champion and defend Buzz and MU with the same vigor? (That's really my only beef with you.)
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Coach Crean's situation was far different than Coach Williams'. First, he started from scratch. Before he got there, their best player went pro, some players left due to the coaching change, and some players didn't feel they needed to go to class. Outside of the recruiting restrictions he had, I'm sure some of the top recruits stayed away because they didn't know what the final NCAA sactions would be.
As far as I can see, Crean has decided, rightly or wrongly, to focus mainly on high school players, outside of a couple of JUCO players. He obviously has taken his lumps, as he has been playing a lot of freshman and sophomores. Next year, he only loses one player. His "Top 10" recruiting class will be juniors. He will actually have a couple of seniors. Next year, while I think his team will still have some holes, I would expect them to take a big step.
After the Big 3 graduated, Coach Williams still had some quality seniors left (one was a first-round draft pick). He has successfully gone the JUCO route more than Crean. This has kept us competitive, but we still are not a Top-25 team. Next year, we lose 3 seniors. I am not sure if we will be better or worse next year because of it. We will still have some holes also.
I am curious to see which program becomes a Top-25 program first.
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It would be nice to see you champion and defend the Marquette program/current coach as much and as hard as you do IU and Crean. Why can you not champion and defend Buzz and MU with the same vigor? (That's really my only beef with you.)
I will always champion Marquette basketball, Ners. I ripped on Crean often but you and others just totally ignore this fact. I'm going to rip on Buzz at times, too. No different.
To this day I do not understand how Marquette could be where they were....a top 15 program, a GREAT team coming back, a great recruiting class coming in and MU on a roll and we panic and go down the path we did. We took this gamble and it may workout fantastic. I sure as hell hope it does, but when I see losses racking up when they should be wins and realize we have such an inexperienced coach, it's frustrating. We didn't have to be in this situation. In the long run, it may be pure genius. I can only hope. MU had it going big time and the fact we're scrambling for our dear lives last year and this year is frustrating.
For ONCE I wanted my alma mater to act like they were big boys and play as big boys. Go after a big time coach, a Stallings or someone that actually could have kept some of that class together and wouldn't need on the job training like we have going on now. But, in typical MU fashion, we didn't. Again, hopefully it works out. We have a tendency in the last few major hires at MU to not interview very many people (if any at all...see AD hiring) and just go on gut instinct apparently. Well, that's a risky strategy. Lord knows sometimes the most well laid out plans go sour, so nothing is perfect. That being said, just once it would be nice to see MU act like a major player in these things but we never do. It's incredible to me. When we're in the dumps, it makes sense to go with an assistant coach that can hopefully get you back...there is little downside. When you're on top of the mountain, hiring someone with 1 year head coaching experience ( a losing record at that ) is a risk. It was a risk then and it's still a risk now. I hope it works out, I really do but it doesn't change my mind from asking why in the hell we say we're one thing but act like something else.
Until he proves he can do it with HIS team and do it consistently, he's going to get scrutinized. I took Crean to task his first 3 years. I ripped him after the second NIT year appearance. Again, you guys act as if this never happened...you'll have to explain why.
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I will always champion Marquette basketball, Ners. I ripped on Crean often but you and others just totally ignore this fact. I'm going to rip on Buzz at times, too. No different.
To this day I do not understand how Marquette could be where they were....a top 15 program, a GREAT team coming back, a great recruiting class coming in and MU on a roll and we panic and go down the path we did. We took this gamble and it may workout fantastic. I sure as hell hope it does, but when I see losses racking up when they should be wins and realize we have such an inexperienced coach, it's frustrating. We didn't have to be in this situation. In the long run, it may be pure genius. I can only hope. MU had it going big time and the fact we're scrambling for our dear lives last year and this year is frustrating.
For ONCE I wanted my alma mater to act like they were big boys and play as big boys. Go after a big time coach, a Stallings or someone that actually could have kept some of that class together and wouldn't need on the job training like we have going on now. But, in typical MU fashion, we didn't. Again, hopefully it works out. We have a tendency in the last few major hires at MU to not interview very many people (if any at all...see AD hiring) and just go on gut instinct apparently. Well, that's a risky strategy. Lord knows sometimes the most well laid out plans go sour, so nothing is perfect. That being said, just once it would be nice to see MU act like a major player in these things but we never do. It's incredible to me. When we're in the dumps, it makes sense to go with an assistant coach that can hopefully get you back...there is little downside. When you're on top of the mountain, hiring someone with 1 year head coaching experience ( a losing record at that ) is a risk. It was a risk then and it's still a risk now. I hope it works out, I really do but it doesn't change my mind from asking why in the hell we say we're one thing but act like something else.
Until he proves he can do it with HIS team and do it consistently, he's going to get scrutinized. I took Crean to task his first 3 years. I ripped him after the second NIT year appearance. Again, you guys act as if this never happened...you'll have to explain why.
+1000 Succinct, sincere, superlative.
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I will always champion Marquette basketball, Ners. I ripped on Crean often but you and others just totally ignore this fact. I'm going to rip on Buzz at times, too. No different.
To this day I do not understand how Marquette could be where they were....a top 15 program, a GREAT team coming back, a great recruiting class coming in and MU on a roll and we panic and go down the path we did. We took this gamble and it may workout fantastic. I sure as hell hope it does, but when I see losses racking up when they should be wins and realize we have such an inexperienced coach, it's frustrating. We didn't have to be in this situation. In the long run, it may be pure genius. I can only hope. MU had it going big time and the fact we're scrambling for our dear lives last year and this year is frustrating.
For ONCE I wanted my alma mater to act like they were big boys and play as big boys. Go after a big time coach, a Stallings or someone that actually could have kept some of that class together and wouldn't need on the job training like we have going on now. But, in typical MU fashion, we didn't. Again, hopefully it works out. We have a tendency in the last few major hires at MU to not interview very many people (if any at all...see AD hiring) and just go on gut instinct apparently. Well, that's a risky strategy. Lord knows sometimes the most well laid out plans go sour, so nothing is perfect. That being said, just once it would be nice to see MU act like a major player in these things but we never do. It's incredible to me. When we're in the dumps, it makes sense to go with an assistant coach that can hopefully get you back...there is little downside. When you're on top of the mountain, hiring someone with 1 year head coaching experience ( a losing record at that ) is a risk. It was a risk then and it's still a risk now. I hope it works out, I really do but it doesn't change my mind from asking why in the hell we say we're one thing but act like something else.
Until he proves he can do it with HIS team and do it consistently, he's going to get scrutinized. I took Crean to task his first 3 years. I ripped him after the second NIT year appearance. Again, you guys act as if this never happened...you'll have to explain why.
Completely respect this post Chicos. I wasn't reading here back in the day when you ripped Crean - so can't discuss that. It just seems you give Crean a ton of slack at IU, and don't give Buzz the same here at MU. Maybe Stallings would have come to MU if offered - and I do agree that the program was at its highest point since Al was here when TC left. To me that's on the MU Athletic Department - but so far it seems we should be giving Buzz the benefit of the doubt..as the results thus far have been pretty darn good.
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I give him slack at IU because I think what he's had to do has never been done before. Take a program literally from scratch and on top of that, have a NCAA cloud hanging over your head. I've yet to ever see anyone provide an example of where this situation occurred anywhere else and happened quickly. I remember Tulane going through it with the Hot Rod Williams scandal, and they still haven't recovered two decades later.
As I've said, I have had enough conversations with people VERY well connected to IU to know this is a long haul rebuild. No question the pressure begins to build because now the real players start coming in, but when you have poor players to work with, when you have NCAA sanctions over your head and the major injuries...well it's going to take time. They are meeting the expectations of IU and that's all that matters...but the pressure starts next year and really gets going the year after.
Peace bro.
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In an effort to lighten the mood, this is pretty funny.
http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/tom-crean-matt-painter.jpg
The pictures are probably the best part...
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For ONCE I wanted my alma mater to act like they were big boys and play as big boys. Go after a big time coach, a Stallings or someone that actually could have kept some of that class together and wouldn't need on the job training like we have going on now. But, in typical MU fashion, we didn't.
Ah yes, herein lies the problem. Chicos could have done it better. Stupid MU.
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The funny thing is, McRobbie and Glass and the other leaders at IU, you know, the guys that actually HIRE and FIRE people based on....drum roll...EXPECTATIONS...are keeping him around for the long haul.
Ok...lets get back to what you've previously stated as expectations...
I disagree as an alum. He has a LLLLLOOOOONNNNNGGGG leash at IU. Very long. They expect single digit wins this year, they expect probably 10 or 11 wins next year, .500 in year three.
He has a long leash.....and a long contract.
You've stayed consistent with the long leash.
Year 1: Chicos: single digit wins - Actual: 6 check
Year 2: Chicos: 10 or 11 wins - Actual: 10 check (low end)
Year 3: Chicos: .500 - Actual: .387 (12-19) or .419 (13-18) demerit
So, I've got to assume...you're starting to come around to the fact that when he under-performs next year (after year 4, like the FB coach), they'll can him and bring in a big name coach to take his recruits to the next level?
There is so much money at IU to pay off coaches it's incredible. They just did it with football. Mark Cuban can write one check and it's taken care of in a heartbeat.
Ah, and you're even backing away from your argument that their hands are tied because they don't want to pay 3 BB coaches at the same time. You've said forever that there was too much $$$ on the line to can crean. But now "There is so much money at IU to pay off coaches it's incredible". Welcome back chicos. The recovery has taken a while, and I think you'll look good in Purdue gear next year.
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Can't argue with Chicos manifesto on the hire, but weren't the reports that the person most responsible for this hiring was Buzz Williams predecessor? He got in Doc Rivers/Dick Strong's ears and Cottingham is nothing but a yes man.
I like the hire, by the way. Didn't at the time. Do now.
Now let's go get a godd@mned snack.
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In an effort to lighten the mood, this is pretty funny.
http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/tom-crean-matt-painter.jpg
The pictures are probably the best part...
INCREDIBLE!!!!!
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Ah yes, herein lies the problem. Chicos could have done it better. Stupid MU.
Funny how most pundits in the nation said the same thing I did.....stupid college basketball experts
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Ok...lets get back to what you've previously stated as expectations...
You've stayed consistent with the long leash.
Year 1: Chicos: single digit wins - Actual: 6 check
Year 2: Chicos: 10 or 11 wins - Actual: 10 check (low end)
Year 3: Chicos: .500 - Actual: .387 (12-19) or .419 (13-18) demerit
You're right, three starters go down to injuries and having their 7 footer suspended didn't impact year 3 at all. CHECK ::)
Please, just shoot me...never mind, I'll do it myself. When we get this type of solid analysis from moderators here, that's the only thing left to do. Still have the racist posts living up here on Scoop, Rocky...well of course you do.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j302/rpwhite55/guns/gun-head-bang.gif)
We are putting the bet loser on You Tube still, correct? For all to see?
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Ah, and you're even backing away from your argument that their hands are tied because they don't want to pay 3 BB coaches at the same time. You've said forever that there was too much $$$ on the line to can crean. But now "There is so much money at IU to pay off coaches it's incredible".
Let's see. Chicos says Crean can't/won't be fired because of the economics of the situation. I say that Crean can't/won't be fired because of the economics of the situation. Chicos does a 180 and says I'm full of it. Par for the course.
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Funny how most pundits in the nation said the same thing I did.....stupid college basketball experts
So you were just regurgetating the thoughts of the basketball geniuses who bring us the always accurate preseason polls? Maybe you should be more careful about whose paper you're copying from.
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Let's see. Chicos says Crean can't/won't be fired because of the economics of the situation. I say that Crean can't/won't be fired because of the economics of the situation. Chicos does a 180 and says I'm full of it. Par for the course.
As usual, Lenny and Rocky have a reading problem. Yes, I said IU didn't have the money. You know, that whole state gov't, economy in the toilet kind of thing. But what did I say the other day...let's see, I have it here somewhere...where did I put it...oh yeah, I said there is so much money at IU to pay him off (as in donors) and actually gave you an example in Mark Cuban...is Mark Cuban part of the state gov't of Indiana? Is Mark Cuban or Bill Cook or any other well heeled alumni part of the athletic department and answer to a state budget? Ahh, but that would require you guys to read. Carry on. How's the options trading today Lenny? Students doing well picking up all the ins and outs? Pun intended.
Maybe Bill Cook will buy him out....no, Cook is a major donor and backs him. No, won't be Cook. Let's see, maybe Steve Alford will start a Facebook coup...yeah, that's it.
I'm getting on a plane in a few, I look forward to some more twisting of words from you guys when I deplane. Should be fun.
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So you were just regurgetating the thoughts of the basketball geniuses who bring us the always accurate preseason polls? Maybe you should be more careful about whose paper you're copying from.
Actually, no...these guys are too smart to participate in those stupid polls. Plus, I came out with stuff on CS and here before they did, they must have been copying me. LOL ;D
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You're right, three starters go down to injuries and having their 7 footer suspended didn't impact year 3 at all. CHECK ::)
You could say the injury to Dom in Buzz's first year prevented Marquette from reaching the Final Four: the crown jewel of the Crean era.
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Yahoo! column today on this very subject
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=AqNtEbtb5U6FGmpOrU8D743evbYF?slug=jn-bigten022211
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You could say the injury to Dom in Buzz's first year prevented Marquette from reaching the Final Four: the crown jewel of the Crean era.
You could...devastating injury. Of course, you also could insert 300 other DI coaches for that team that could have taken MU that far, Buzz was along for the ride not to screw it up.
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From Pakuni's link:
Indiana wasn’t pegged to finish at the top of the Big Ten standings, but no one thought the Hoosiers would sink to the bottom, either. That’s exactly where Crean’s squad is, though, heading into the last two weeks of the regular season.
It’s time for less talk and more substance. Instead of telling folks to believe in his vision, Crean needs to win. Otherwise it will only be natural when people begin to lose patience.
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You could...devastating injury. Of course, you also could insert 300 other DI coaches for that team that could have taken MU that far, Buzz was along for the ride not to screw it up.
That awesome team that anyone in the country could have coached to lofty heights was the same one you picked to go 9-9 in the Big East. Hypocrisy at its finest.
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Yahoo! column today on this very subject
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=AqNtEbtb5U6FGmpOrU8D743evbYF?slug=jn-bigten022211
Sums up what I, and many people here have been saying. They shouldn't be this bad three years in.
Crean has proven that he can put a team with two NBA players into the NIT and proven that he needs at least 4 years to get out of the Big Ten basement. His act will get old.
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Yahoo! column today on this very subject
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=AqNtEbtb5U6FGmpOrU8D743evbYF?slug=jn-bigten022211
So Crean is a) not meeting the pundits/experts expectations, b) not meeting IU's fans expectations and c) not meeting Tom Crean's expectations. Lucky for him that the three people in the world whose incredibly low expectations he has met are McRobbie, Glass and Dykes.
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You're right, three starters go down to injuries and having their 7 footer suspended didn't impact year 3 at all. CHECK ::)
Please, just shoot me...never mind, I'll do it myself. When we get this type of solid analysis from moderators here, that's the only thing left to do. Still have the racist posts living up here on Scoop, Rocky...well of course you do.
We are putting the bet loser on You Tube still, correct? For all to see?
Could you please point out the holes in my analysis? Shouldn't his bench be deep enough by now to at least have a .500 record? Oh well, I'll admit I mostly just post my stuff to get you riled up, and because I'm looking forward to winning :) On the payup - if you want to do a video, that's fine, but pictures are all that's required. In fact, if I were to lose, I had only promised pics of me in IU gear in a few prominent Colorado locations.
Finally, I guess I'll address your "racist" claims since you insist on bringing it up everywhere. You're the only one that thinks it's racist Chicos. There's a difference between acknowledging that people are a different race, and actually being racist. You seem to think the former is equal to the latter. It's not. That's why all the "racist" posts you report stay up.
Oh, and FYI, here's the most recent post Chicos reported as "racist"
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24416.msg271554#msg271554
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Oh, and FYI, here's the most recent post Chicos reported as "racist"
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24416.msg271554#msg271554
LOL... nothing surprises me with the protected anymore. Yeeeesh...
PS - Rocky any chance you have a hookup for good seats to the 1st and 2nd round (I'm not calling them 2nd and 3rd) games at Pepsi Center? If Minnesota or Marquette makes it there, I may head into town. Close to just buying a ticket and hoping this week. Also, might be hanging out in Denver April 15-17 for the Double Pump tourney... if you want to get together and talk about users on this board, I will try to keep some time open.
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PS - Rocky any chance you have a hookup for good seats to the 1st and 2nd round (I'm not calling them 2nd and 3rd) games at Pepsi Center?
Not yet. But I'm hoping to track down a CSU alum that hopefully bought some. Otherwise, if Marquette is there I'll be buying them off the street too.
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That awesome team that anyone in the country could have coached to lofty heights was the same one you picked to go 9-9 in the Big East. Hypocrisy at its finest.
Ahh, reading problems again from our elderly statesman.
I said any one of 300 DI coaches. There are 345 DI coaches....let's just say I lumped Buzz in with the 45 that couldn't which is why I picked them for 9-9.
No hypocrisy at all sunshine....the talent was always there, I didn't think Buzz could pull off not screwing it up. As I said throughout that year, look it up if you wish, I was pleasantly surprised that he didn't screw it up. Just as last year I said he should be considered for Big East COY...but of course you forget that as well.
Keep up with the reading, sugar.
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So Crean is a) not meeting the pundits/experts expectations, b) not meeting IU's fans expectations and c) not meeting Tom Crean's expectations. Lucky for him that the three people in the world whose incredibly low expectations he has met are McRobbie, Glass and Dykes.
LOL....can you get the names spelled right...it would make you look a lot less ignorant.
So, a Yahoo article says it's so. OHHH NNNNOOOOOOEESSS. I'll bet the President of the university and the rest are running for the hills, probably meeting as we speak. ::)
(http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/91331/oh_noes.jpg)
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Could you please point out the holes in my analysis? Shouldn't his bench be deep enough by now to at least have a .500 record? Oh well, I'll admit I mostly just post my stuff to get you riled up, and because I'm looking forward to winning :) On the payup - if you want to do a video, that's fine, but pictures are all that's required. In fact, if I were to lose, I had only promised pics of me in IU gear in a few prominent Colorado locations.
Finally, I guess I'll address your "racist" claims since you insist on bringing it up everywhere. You're the only one that thinks it's racist Chicos. There's a difference between acknowledging that people are a different race, and actually being racist. You seem to think the former is equal to the latter. It's not. That's why all the "racist" posts you report stay up.
Oh, and FYI, here's the most recent post Chicos reported as "racist"
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24416.msg271554#msg271554
No, I'm not the ONLY one that thinks its racist. Secondly, it's just plain crap. I never said caucasian ever but you let that crap live on. You're letting a number of those posts claiming that I want caucasian players which I've never said. Thus, you are pushing the racist crap. Why else would you let it on there?
Now, on the basketball front, I've explained it to you many times but you don't want to listen. Most of their good players will be juniors and freshmen next year. They are the 3rd youngest team in the Big Ten, Rocky, and thus they often play like it. I don't know why this is so far for to grasp, but apparently it is. Nothing I can do to help you with that.
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Rocky: "Be strong and shout at the devil" 8-)
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Most of their good players will be juniors and freshmen next year.
Who are these juniors and frosh? I'm thinking a guy like you means:
Elston
Capobianco
Hulls
Zeller
Etherington
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Who are these juniors and frosh? I'm thinking a guy like you means:
Elston
Capobianco
Hulls
Zeller
Etherington
Watford will be a junior
Hulls a junior
Creek a junior
Zeller a freshman
Well, we disagree again...at least on some. Those will be 4 of the top players on the team
The others will depend on how they approach things next year. Is it Pritchard ( who will be a Soph). Or is it Sheehy or someone else. Point is, they have 1 SR. On the team that plays and he isn't very good. Their best players now are arguably all sophomores and freshmen with one exception.
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I don't know why this is so far for to grasp, but apparently it is. Nothing I can do to help you with that.
By the time I decode that first sentence fragment, maybe I'll have won the bet :D
As for the rest, I'll happily let you keep beating the drum. Hope it makes you feel better!
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Ahh, reading problems again from our elderly statesman.
I said any one of 300 DI coaches. There are 345 DI coaches....let's just say I lumped Buzz in with the 45 that couldn't which is why I picked them for 9-9.
Thank you for finally coming out of the closet regarding your true feelings about Buzz. I knew that you were against hiring him but even I didn't think you held him in such low esteem. Admitting that your opinion going in on Buzz was that he was the equal of the Centenary or Prairie View A+M coach but inferior to the coaches at N Dakota, E Washington, Bryant, Florida Gulf Coast, Citadel, Idaho St, Eastern Michigan, Navy, Towson St, North Carolina Central, Delaware St, Cal St Bakersfield, Florida International, High Point, Monmouth, St Francis (PA), Samford, Hartford,Savannah St, UC Riverside, Troy, Stoney Brook, NC A+T, CS Fullerton, New Hampshire, Army, Jackson St, Gardner Webb, S Utah, Sacred Heart, Mount St Marys, Utah Valley, UC Davis, Texas St, Youngstown St, Elon, Campbell, Bethune Cookman, Texas Arlington, E Kentucky, U Texas San Antonio, Albany, William + Mary, Brown, Presbyterian, Texas Southern, Louisiana - Lafayette, Nicholls State, Chattanooga, Morgan St, Mercer, N Florida, St Francis (NY), UMKC, Tennessee Tech, VMI, Denver, Charleston Southern, McNeese St, Lehigh, Columbia, Hampton, Canisius, Stephen F Austin, Yale, Cal Poly SLO, Loyola (Maryland), Delaware, Robert Morris and Central Connecticut St. (among too many others to mention in the "top 300") says it all. I don't think there is anyone, anywhere (even among the biggest opponents to his hiring) other than you who would have preferred the coaches at the schools mentioned above to Buzz.
Acknowledging that you were the biggest anti-Buzz guy here beginning his first season and given your track record of difficulty admitting mistakes, I'm not surprised you never pass on an opportunity to bash him. Thanks for admitting as much.
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LOL....can you get the names spelled right...it would make you look a lot less ignorant.
So, a Yahoo article says it's so. OHHH NNNNOOOOOOEESSS. I'll bet the President of the university and the rest are running for the hills, probably meeting as we speak. ::)
Interesting. So, the same guy who finds and posts links from the most obscure of blogs of they contain any negative comment about Buzz Williams and/or MU is completely dismissive of what's written on the second most-read sports site online (behind ESPN).
Good thing you've never been accused of being consistent.
By the way, how could you have lumped Buzz into the 45 worst coaches in the country three years ago when everyone knows you can't evaluate a coach until after five years on the job?
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I said any one of 300 DI coaches. There are 345 DI coaches....let's just say I lumped Buzz in with the 45 that couldn't which is why I picked them for 9-9.
No hypocrisy at all sunshine....the talent was always there, I didn't think Buzz could pull off not screwing it up.
Wes Matthews has about 30 million reasons to disagree with your assessment that Buzz. I wouldn't call Buzz's performance in 2009 not screwing up. He did a great job maximizing the talent he had that year.
MU stayed competitive in a Big East loaded with big men talent (Thabeet, Monroe, Harangody, Blair) and in many cases about even talent in the back court. That was a guantlet of a Big East and you could not roll the ball out with your seniors and win the way he did.
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The others will depend on how they approach things next year. Is it Pritchard ( who will be a Soph). Or is it Sheehy or someone else. Point is, they have 1 SR. On the team that plays and he isn't very good. Their best players now are arguably all sophomores and freshmen with one exception.
Wow. Pritchard will most certainly not be a "soph". He'll be a senior, an off and on starter from day one. I'm shocked that the alum in charge of setting expectations knows so little about his alma mater. Has the train wreck been so bad that you've been afraid to watch?
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By the time I decode that first sentence fragment, maybe I'll have won the bet :D
As for the rest, I'll happily let you keep beating the drum. Hope it makes you feel better!
iPhone....drives me nuts. When it auto corrects it often chooses the wrong word and if I'm not paying attention, it goes through.
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Interesting. So, the same guy who finds and posts links from the most obscure of blogs of they contain any negative comment about Buzz Williams and/or MU is completely dismissive of what's written on the second most-read sports site online (behind ESPN).
Good thing you've never been accused of being consistent.
By the way, how could you have lumped Buzz into the 45 worst coaches in the country three years ago when everyone knows you can't evaluate a coach until after five years on the job?
It's called a guess and a prediction, that's what predictions and guesses are. I was asked to put in my guesses, should I have said 0-0 because I have to wait 5 years? Silly boy.
It's funny you say obscure blogs that I reference, but don't mention the mainstream ones too....ahh, selectivity at it's finest.
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Wes Matthews has about 30 million reasons to disagree with your assessment that Buzz. I wouldn't call Buzz's performance in 2009 not screwing up. He did a great job maximizing the talent he had that year.
MU stayed competitive in a Big East loaded with big men talent (Thabeet, Monroe, Harangody, Blair) and in many cases about even talent in the back court. That was a guantlet of a Big East and you could not roll the ball out with your seniors and win the way he did.
Wes Matthews made it himself. I'd remind you that he wasn't drafted with Buzz. He proved himself in the tryouts and the camps. Do you honestly believe he would not have been invited to the camps and tryouts if TC was still head coach? Please.
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iPhone....drives me nuts. When it auto corrects it often chooses the wrong word and if I'm not paying attention, it goes through.
Let me get this straight. If someone else omits a letter creating a misspelling they are ignorant. If you submit something totally nonsensical it's your phone's fault. Sounds fair.
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Watford will be a junior
Hulls a junior
Creek a junior
Zeller a freshman
Well, we disagree again...at least on some. Those will be 4 of the top players on the team
We do disagree, but we haven't on this topic yet (but will in a moment). I didn't list those players because I think they are the good juniors and freshman - I listed them because I thought a guy like you would prefer those juniors and freshman (and certainly a senior "sophomore" like Pritchard and real sophomore WillShe would be guys you'd like).
As for the four best next year, I'll go with Watford, Jones, Hulls and Oladipo. I understand why you wouldn't care for Verdell or Victor and Crean certainly won't be able to use them as well as many other coaches could, but Creek ain't coming back anything like he was as a frosh. It's unfortunate, but that's how it is.
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Do you honestly believe he would not have been invited to the camps and tryouts if TC was still head coach? Please.
Given the fact that TC would have surely continued to treat him as the third or fourth wheel, I'd say yes. From everything Wes has said, he'd say yes too.
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This thread is that 7th circle of hell Dante referred to.
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This thread is that 7th circle of hell Dante referred to.
Another MUScoop first ;D
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Acknowledging that you were the biggest anti-Buzz guy here beginning his first season and given your track record of difficulty admitting mistakes, I'm not surprised you never pass on an opportunity to bash him. Thanks for admitting as much.
WRONG
From day one I've said I didn't think MU should hire him that fast, he could be had a week or two later. What's strange is that you continue to ignore the praise I've given him...why is that? Why is it when I said he should be Big East Coach of the Year contention last year it just doesn't register with you? Or any number of other examples?
You may want to go back and read what I've said over the years because it's obvious from your quote above you haven't or you have continued difficulty comprehending. I don't know which one it is with you, but clearly you have an issue.
I've been consistent from day one....I don't think we should have hired him that quickly. Once we did hire him, I've said time and time again I hope he does well because that means MU is doing well. I've said also that I hope he's here 10 years and replicates what the last regime did. These are all in the record, right there for everyone to see. Use that search function, it's not hard. I'll even give you a tutorial if you wish.
Oh, and I've also been consistent to say we'll truly know what we have in year 5. You have in the camp about 14 seconds after the first wet kiss, but I like to wait awhile.
I invite you to actually read the comments over the years
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Wow. Pritchard will most certainly not be a "soph". He'll be a senior, an off and on starter from day one. I'm shocked that the alum in charge of setting expectations knows so little about his alma mater. Has the train wreck been so bad that you've been afraid to watch?
My apologies that at 12:23am and flying all day that I made a mistake on my iPhone. Thanks Bernie. I kept trying to think of Oladipo, who is a freshman, but his name was escaping me. I like that kid a lot....but wait, he's not Caucasian...right Rocky? At any rate, my apologies for putting in Pritchard's name. Odd, considering I'm such a HUGE INDIANA FAN according to the nutjobs here, that I would miss that....oh that's right, I'm a MU fan first, second, third.....but that little tidbit escapes people, too. Go figure.
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Given the fact that TC would have surely continued to treat him as the third or fourth wheel, I'd say yes. From everything Wes has said, he'd say yes too.
LOL...it's funny how you lock in on Wes' "unleash" quote but ignore the quote the week after from the same Wes Matthews on Crean. Ahh, but it really isn't funny and not shocking at all, now is it.
It amazes me that someone at your advanced years in age would actually think Wes Matthews, who WASN'T drafted even though being 'UNLEASHED' would not have had the same opportunities to showcase himself to the NBA. No, none whatsoever. ::) Keep going Bernie, you're a beauty with your logic.
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We do disagree, but we haven't on this topic yet (but will in a moment). I didn't list those players because I think they are the good juniors and freshman - I listed them because I thought a guy like you would prefer those juniors and freshman (and certainly a senior "sophomore" like Pritchard and real sophomore WillShe would be guys you'd like).
As for the four best next year, I'll go with Watford, Jones, Hulls and Oladipo. I understand why you wouldn't care for Verdell or Victor and Crean certainly won't be able to use them as well as many other coaches could, but Creek ain't coming back anything like he was as a frosh. It's unfortunate, but that's how it is.
Yeah, as I stated, I like Ola's game but it was late and I couldn't come up with his name. Too much traveling, tired and cocktails in the system...oh well. We'll see on Creek. I fear you are right, it's a shame as he's a good kid. To bust up two knee caps like that at his age is a heart breaker for that kid.
Lenny was probably cheering it to happen.
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We'll see on Creek. I fear you are right, it's a shame as he's a good kid. To bust up two knee caps like that at his age is a heart breaker for that kid.
Lenny was probably cheering it to happen.
I was probably cheering (for) it to happen? What kind of person could even write that? You've hit new lows, and considering you're the same guy who recently called the MU players that he loves and supports "choking dogs" who "pee all over thmselves" that's saying something.
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LOL...it's funny how you lock in on Wes' "unleash" quote but ignore the quote the week after from the same Wes Matthews on Crean. Ahh, but it really isn't funny and not shocking at all, now is it.
It amazes me that someone at your advanced years in age would actually think Wes Matthews, who WASN'T drafted even though being 'UNLEASHED' would not have had the same opportunities to showcase himself to the NBA. No, none whatsoever. ::) Keep going Bernie, you're a beauty with your logic.
Wesley gives full credit to Buzz's assistance and very, very little credit to I4 for him getting a chance in the NBA.
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Wes Matthews made it himself. I'd remind you that he wasn't drafted with Buzz. He proved himself in the tryouts and the camps. Do you honestly believe he would not have been invited to the camps and tryouts if TC was still head coach? Please.
Wes got to about 18 ppg his senior year. Unless you are going to argue that he got all of Barro and Fitz's shots, then you have to say that Buzz changing the focus of the offense off of Dom and focusing more on Matthews and Hayward was a factor. Granted, Wes was a senior and played more.
You really think Crean would have thrown out his play of running the clock down and letting Dom fire one up after running that crap for 9 years? Getting rid of that awful set "unleashed" Wes. Why would you invite an average player on probably the 20th best team in the country who would have probably appeared to be the 4th best player on the team?
I honestly do not think that Wes would have been invited to camps. Unless his dad somehow had connections behind the scenes from back in the day, there is no way in my opinion.
To your point, Wes deserves all the credit. The guy never said a word while watching his teammates handed the back off to each other at the coach's request and jack up shots while he stood on the wing for three years. The guy worked hard and all he needed was the opportunity that Buzz gave him.
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still looking for their 4th Big Ten win....
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I honestly do not think that Wes would have been invited to camps. Unless his dad somehow had connections behind the scenes from back in the day, there is no way in my opinion.
Then you have no idea how it works. He most certainly would have been invited to the camps. Forget his dad, look at the people Crean has had invited to the camps over the years that probably didn't belong there...that's where the connections come in.
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still looking for their 4th Big Ten win....
Since we're so excited about articles around here, here's one from Rick Bozich
http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20110223/COLUMNISTS01/302230143/Rick-Bozich-Indiana-cleanup-real-takes-time
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Funny thing happened today: Crean's tweets stopped after this OSU blowout.
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Did he shake Matta's hand graciously or was it one of those cold tit jobs?
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Was at the game, didn't see the the postgame handshake, but Crean did have to be directed/ordered off the court at halftime after some heated discussion with the officials and Matta.
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Thomas, who Indiana coach Tom Crean had tried to recruit after he had verbally committed to Ohio State, was the story for the Buckeyes in the first half.
Hmmm...I could swear that not long ago in reference to Vander Blue, someone posted that...we (presumably MU) used to honor verbal commitments. We used to get our undies in a bunch when schools kept recruiting our players. No longer. Just win baby.
It certainly makes one wonder what time frame used to is referring to (of course now we will probably hear that it dates back decades ago), and where the feigned indignation comes from? This certainly sounds like the sort of thing that should make Indiana fans squirm, as it seems our previous guy is just as reprehensible as our current guy.
http://espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=310580194 (http://espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=310580194)
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From ESPN:
Crean's temper flared when Matta spoke to the officials at the end of the half. Crean made sure he also joined the conversation.
"I don't do it and I don't think coaches should get a free conference with the officials at halftime," he said. "That's happened to us, nothing was done about it, and I wasn't going to stand back and not be a part of that. Whether it's gamesmanship, whatever it is, it's the way that it is. The half is over. The officials are supposed to be leaving the floor, as are the teams, and that didn't happen."
Wahhhhhhhh... Yeah, that's why they were getting blown out... Couldn't be because they stink.
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Handshake etiquette is a global issue. I saw the Fulham-Manchester City game yesterday. Hughes and Mancini had a classic no-looked antagonist handshake. It was mentioned by both in the press conference after the game.
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Handshake etiquette is a global issue. I saw the Fulham-Manchester City game yesterday. Hughes and Mancini had a classic no-looked antagonist handshake. It was mentioned by both in the press conference after the game.
Some serious bad blood between those two. Seeing as Mancini had accepted the Chelseas job while Hughes was still the coach, I can see why.
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Thomas, who Indiana coach Tom Crean had tried to recruit after he had verbally committed to Ohio State, was the story for the Buckeyes in the first half.
Hmmm...I could swear that not long ago in reference to Vander Blue, someone posted that...we (presumably MU) used to honor verbal commitments. We used to get our undies in a bunch when schools kept recruiting our players. No longer. Just win baby.
It certainly makes one wonder what time frame used to is referring to (of course now we will probably hear that it dates back decades ago), and where the feigned indignation comes from? This certainly sounds like the sort of thing that should make Indiana fans squirm, as it seems our previous guy is just as reprehensible as our current guy.
http://espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=310580194 (http://espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=310580194)
One scoop of douchy and one scoop of squirmy.
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Does make me squirm. Buzz shouldn't do it and neither should Crean. It's BS that these coaches are doing this, even worse that our fans think it's hunky dory.
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Does make me squirm. Buzz shouldn't do it and neither should Crean. It's BS that these coaches are doing this, even worse that our fans think it's hunky dory.
But what about all the lectures you gave us about Crean's "hands being tied" and Glass and McRobbie insisting that he do things the right way? This and the whole AAU fiasco suggest that was just holier than thou talk.
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But what about all the lectures you gave us about Crean's "hands being tied" and Glass and McRobbie insisting that he do things the right way? This and the whole AAU fiasco suggest that was just holier than thou talk.
Wow, you really do need to go back and read some things don't you.
Go back and read what "hands tied" meant, who he could and could not go after. Then get back to me.
Thanks for playing