MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: wojosdojo on May 12, 2010, 05:24:51 PM
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I know we've been talking about where Dwyane might be going next year, but what about LeBron? I personally hope Doc pulls out this series to see LeBron on the hot seat (and in Chicago), not to mention D Wade with the only ring of James and Anthony ;). Now, I wouldn't be shocked if the Cavs win game six and then game seven, yet I wouldn't be shocked if the Celtics win with the way they're playing. But, if the cavs drop out what are the options for the ringless King? Cleveland? NY? Chicago?
Of those three I think for some reason he stays in Cleveland (with Wade staying too). The only other place I can see him playing is NY with the money they have as well as the city (+Yankees). Chicago on the other hand is a long, long, long shot. You hear is here and there so I just thought I'd add it to the list.
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Another possibility I have heard...Lebron and DWade in Miami. Miami has enough $ to sign DWade and another player each to max contracts, so that shouldn't be the issue. It might be smart of them to take minor pay cuts so they can get a couple other decent players there, but who knows. As big fans of both of them, I don't really want this to happen, as it would just seem a bit unfair, but that would sure be an entertaining team to watch.
Yesterday I would have told you CLE would be the leader for Lebron, but with the way he played last night I am having doubts that his heart is there. He really has no 2nd option on that team-its just a bunch of 3rd and 4th options. NBA teams NEVER win without 2 really really good players. If I had to guess, I'd say he goes to NY or CHI. NY's roster makes no sense for Lebron, but you know he loves the market.
I'd love him to sign a 1yr deal, then sign with the Bucks next year when we get rid of Redd and Gadzuric's contracts. I know he'd never do it, but if you just look at rosters and not city, the Bucks' roster makes more sense than anybody. Hed slot in perfectly with this team.
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Why does everyone think that he is going to Chicago?
With out some SIGNIFICANT off season moves, Chicago wont offer any better of an opportunity to win a championship then Cleveland and he is already making the league max.
I am not sure where he is going to go but Chicago doesn't seem to make sense.
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Why does everyone think that he is going to Chicago?
With out some SIGNIFICANT off season moves, Chicago wont offer any better of an opportunity to win a championship then Cleveland and he is already making the league max.
I am not sure where he is going to go but Chicago doesn't seem to make sense.
I actually think Chicago's roster makes a lot of sense for Lebron. If you take him of CLE's roster and compare it to CHI's, CHI is way better. CLE is full of has beens and role players-what will that roster look like in 2 years?? Not a pretty picture. No way they wouldve made the playoffs without Lebron, but CHI was in it this year. Derrick Rose is a superstar in the making, but would be a great fit to play with Lebron because he doesn't need the ball in his hands all the time. Joakim Noah is also developing into a really good player. Add in solid guys like Luol Deng and Taj Gibson, and thats an up-and-coming roster. Lebron would make them a beast.
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Apparently someone very close to LeBron's inner circle is saying that Chicago would be his top choice besides Cleveland. Rumors rumors...
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I actually think Chicago's roster makes a lot of sense for Lebron. If you take him of CLE's roster and compare it to CHI's, CHI is way better. CLE is full of has beens and role players-what will that roster look like in 2 years?? Not a pretty picture. No way they wouldve made the playoffs without Lebron, but CHI was in it this year. Derrick Rose is a superstar in the making, but would be a great fit to play with Lebron because he doesn't need the ball in his hands all the time. Joakim Noah is also developing into a really good player. Add in solid guys like Luol Deng and Taj Gibson, and thats an up-and-coming roster. Lebron would make them a beast.
Chicago would be perfect based off the players there. They would need a few more cheap players then. Get a defensive shooting guard (Matthews) and a sharpshooter (Novak) and that is a title contender if Noah and Gibson keep developing, and Brad Miller comes back for cheap.
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Clippers
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I don't think Labron is smart enough to win a championship right now. I thought the same thing of Kobe (post-Shaq), and then you could see it click with him, just as it did with Jordan. My guess is Kobe wins another one this year. I would also guess that Labron will privately feel like the reason he can't win is because he's in Cleveland, so he'll leave. I also feel like he needs to draw attention to himself whenver possible, and will want a big market to do it in. There is bad blood between Labron and Chicago because of his childish (still one of the weirdest things I've seen a grown man do) dancing while on the bench during a Cleveland/Chicago game. I'm sure that's not a huge issue, but it's there.
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Derrick Rose is better than anyone on the Cav's roster. The Cavs are saddled with bad contracts...Jamison, Williams, Shaq...and they don't have the cap room to sign a significant start.
I actually think that the Bulls aren't hiring a coach yet because they'll hire whomever Lebron wants...if it means they get Lebron. So Calipari is not out of the question IMO. A starting line-up of Lebron, Bosh, Noah and Rose is a good one.
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Derrick Rose is better than anyone on the Cav's roster. The Cavs are saddled with bad contracts...Jamison, Williams, Shaq...and they don't have the cap room to sign a significant start.
I actually think that the Bulls aren't hiring a coach yet because they'll hire whomever Lebron wants...if it means they get Lebron. So Calipari is not out of the question IMO. A starting line-up of Lebron, Bosh, Noah and Rose is a good one.
The Bulls don't have space for two max contracts.
Rose, Gibson, Lebron & Noah is still contending for the championship every year.
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I think it goes like this in order of possibility:
1) Cleveland (hometown hero, can make the most money here)
2) New York (huge market, he clearly loves the city, would be a terrible basketball move, regardless of who else they sign)
3) Miami (him and Wade together...more likely Wade and Bosh together)
4) Chicago (big city and great player in Rose beside him, but I just don't see how they're really that much better than the Cavs...the Cavs would be a playoff team with Williams, Jamison, Varejo, Ilgauskus, and Shaq if they didn't have Lebron (plus you add a roll player in his absence)
But I think the sleeper is the Clippers. Rasual Butler isn't a bad roll player. Baron Davis is a proven player (I think he'd be able to share the ball if Lebron was on his team). I think Gooden is a free agent (?) but if not he's good for 11 and 7 every night which is very solid. Eric Gordon is really good. Chris Kaman is quietly one of the better centers in the league. And Blake Griffin COULD become a star (he has the body and game to become one, but it is still to be determined obviously).
I believe they have the cap room to do it. Plus it's HOLLYWOOD. And everyone knows Lebron loves the spotlight.
A starting lineup of:
- PG Baron Davis
- SG Eric Gordon
- SF Lebron James
- PF Blake Griffin
- C Chris Kaman
With Butler and Gooden (if he's not a free agent) being the first two off the bench is REALLY good. With Kobe getting up there in basketball years (a 31 year old with 13 years of experience is much different than a 31 year old with 9 years of experience), Lebron would have the opportunity to steal the spotlight that is Hollywood from Kobe and turn a perennial bottom feeder into a championship contender. The only downside of this is that the Clippers play in the Western Conference, where every night is a grind, compared to the JV that is the Eastern Conference.
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Why would Lebron ever go to chicago? We must have a lot of chicago landers with their bull colored glasses on.
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Why would Lebron ever go to chicago? We must have a lot of chicago landers with their bull colored glasses on.
World Wide Wes.
Calipari and Lebron are a real possibility
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The Bulls don't have space for two max contracts.
Rose, Gibson, Lebron & Noah is still contending for the championship every year.
I thought dumping the Salmons contract gave them enough for two?
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The Bulls don't have space for two max contracts.
Rose, Gibson, Lebron & Noah is still contending for the championship every year.
The Bulls need to trade Kirk Hinrich to have space for two max contracts. This all speculation but word on the street among NBA insiders is that Lebron will go to Chicago if he leaves Cleveland. IMO, Lebron stays in Cleveland and DW3 stays in Miami (his alleged indiscretions wouldn't play well in his hometown). I think the Bulls move Kirk and end up with Joe Johnson and either Bosh or Boozer. Those two players plus Rose and Noah put the Bulls near the top of the East.
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Why does everyone think that he is going to Chicago?
These are the same FIBS that are saying Wade to the Bulls. A blind squirrel is bound to find a nut eventually.
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Why would Lebron ever go to chicago? We must have a lot of chicago landers with their bull colored glasses on.
The rumors last year were NY, the rumors this year are Chicago. He has done minor things to talk up Chicago this year as he did with NY last year. He has said that he loves the city and couldn't see why someone wouldnt wanna play there. Also, although minor, his emphasis on retiring Jordan's #23 could be a sign. If Lebron comes to Chicago, it will be a huge deal that he changes from 23 to 6. Lastly, he is the last player that would need the "extra money" his home team could offer him. This kid is gonna be filthy rich reguardless, and I would guess he doesnt wanna go down as the best player to never win. It would be noble of him to stay home and make his home team a Champion, but he probably thought he could do it this year and might be demoralized with their lack of ability to help him make it happen (although I personally think the bigger burden falls on him because I'd say the Cavs have the pieces this year)
I would still rather see Wade come back home, but I'm sure people in Wisconsin are petrified of the thought of Lebron in Chicago (FIBS!), as it could mean yet another Dynasty (him and rose alone with a bunch of role players).
That said, John Paxson may be the biggest schmuck in all of pro sports. That guy drives me crazy- he has had so many top 10-15 picks that it makes me sick to think about (Brand, Artest, Fizer, Jamal Crawford, Eddy Curry, Jay Williams, Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Tyrus Thomas, Sefolosha) and continues to make terrible moves... (there was that time a few yrs back he wouldn't pull the trigger on Kobe because he didnt wanna give up Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, blah blah blah)... He received a Godsend in the form of the lottery for Rose, and they have done a decent job creating the cap space for this summer. However, if he doesn't land Lebron or Wade, or a combination of Bosh and Johnson, he is a complete failure in my eyes.
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The Bulls are going to get an All-star level Free-agent. Boozer, James, Bosh, Wade, Amare, Johnson. One i coming.
Now, is Paxson gonna get a good role play point guard in Tavis Diener who can be a nice change of pace from Rose and knock down shots at a high percentage.
Will Paxson get a solid defensive SG like Wes Matthews who can knock down shots next to Rose like he did with Williams?
Will Paxson get a sharpshooter who cannot miss when Rose pairs up with another all star? I think Steve Novak fits that bill.
Will Paxson (or Gar Foreman) pick a winner in the second round? Lazar Hayward might be available.
Let's get some of these MU guys closer to campus so that they can attend fundraiser events. That is very key to a private school's success.
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The Bulls need to trade Kirk Hinrich to have space for two max contracts. This all speculation but word on the street among NBA insiders is that Lebron will go to Chicago if he leaves Cleveland. IMO, Lebron stays in Cleveland and DW3 stays in Miami (his alleged indiscretions wouldn't play well in his hometown). I think the Bulls move Kirk and end up with Joe Johnson and either Bosh or Boozer. Those two players plus Rose and Noah put the Bulls near the top of the East.
If anyone gives either Boozer or Johnson max contracts, they will regret that within a year. If you watched their teams get swept out of the playoffs, you'll see that neither is at that level.
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My vote is Jersey.
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Whether the Bulls sign Wade, LBJ, Bosh, Boozer or Amare, they'll still need to sign a shooter. It could be a relatively cheap option like Novak or a more established guy like Kyle Korver or even a vet like Ray Allen (who has a couple Playoff runs left in him).
I actually think LeBron will stay in Cleveland, Bosh will join Wade in Miami and Joe Johnson will sign with the Bulls...who will then be stuck trying to unload his ridiculous contract in 2013.
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If anyone gives either Boozer or Johnson max contracts, they will regret that within a year. If you watched their teams get swept out of the playoffs, you'll see that neither is at that level.
QFT!
Also, I agree, Lebron to Jersey (Brooklyn).
I have serious doubts that Lebron would end up in Chicago. In fact I'd consider eating my shoe if he did.
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If anyone gives either Boozer or Johnson max contracts, they will regret that within a year. If you watched their teams get swept out of the playoffs, you'll see that neither is at that level.
Agreed. However, whatever team is left scrambling after the FA fallout will be paying big. I'd rather wait for a shot at Carmello than JJ or Boozer.
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Agreed. However, whatever team is left scrambling after the FA fallout will be paying big. I'd rather wait for a shot at Carmello than JJ or Boozer.
I'd take Durant over Carmello
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I'd take Durant over Carmello
I would have included Durant, but I don't think he's going anywhere.
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QFT!
Also, I agree, Lebron to Jersey (Brooklyn).
I have serious doubts that Lebron would end up in Chicago. In fact I'd consider eating my shoe if he did.
I'll remember this...
How is Chicago all of a sudden considered a bad gig for any of these guys? Every athlete says they love to play there, whether you admit it or not. It is a huge market (maybe a step below only NYC and LA). It has produced a dynasty and can do it again. It has a solid core of young talent (Rose, Deng, Noah, Gibson, Hinrich)- much better than NY, NJ, or Miami. Lastly, Jesus loves it (FIBS!)
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I'd take Durant over Carmello
He's actually Carmelo now. He used to be Carmello, but then Wes and the Jazz beat the 'L' out of him.
Thank you! I'll be here all week!
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Anyone who thinks Bulls + lebron < lebron + cavs is crazy.
Noah and Rose are both better than the 2nd best player in cleavland. Deng is easily good enough to be the 4th option on a championship team, not to mention better depth off the bench.
How do you think the best player in the league with a top 10 center and top 5 pg won't win a title is beyond me.
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Anyone who thinks Bulls + lebron < lebron + cavs is crazy.
Noah and Rose are both better than the 2nd best player in cleavland. Deng is easily good enough to be the 4th option on a championship team, not to mention better depth off the bench.
How do you think the best player in the league with a top 10 center and top 5 pg won't win a title is beyond me.
Please. Top 5 point guards? Take off the red and black glasses.
Point guards I would take before Derrick Rose WITHOUT A QUESTION:
Steve Nash (1), Rajon Rondo (2), Derron Williams (3), Chauncey Billups (4), Jameer Nelson (5), Chris Paul (6)
Point guards that I personally would take over Derrick Rose, but you can make a case for Rose over them:
Brandon Jennings (7), Russell Westbrook (8), Tyreke Evans (9), Tony Parker (10), Devin Harris (11) (would try to make a case for Baron Davis but he doesn't make his team much better)
Derrick Rose is a very good player, but you have to keep in mind that the league is full of unbelievably talented point guards. In my opinion Derrick Rose is not nearly a top 5 point guard YET. He most likely will become one, but he isn't there right now.
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If anyone gives either Boozer or Johnson max contracts, they will regret that within a year. If you watched their teams get swept out of the playoffs, you'll see that neither is at that level.
I never said they'd be max contract guys with the Bulls and I hope the Bulls aren't that stupid. That said, a lot of teams have cap space and will miss on the big guys and will feel the money burning a hole in the pocket.
Bosh is option 1, 2, & 3 for the Bulls... IF Lebron isn't leaving Cleveland.
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Please. Top 5 point guards? Take off the red and black glasses.
Point guards I would take before Derrick Rose WITHOUT A QUESTION:
Steve Nash (1), Rajon Rondo (2), Derron Williams (3), Chauncey Billups (4), Jameer Nelson (5), Chris Paul (6)
Point guards that I personally would take over Derrick Rose, but you can make a case for Rose over them:
Brandon Jennings (7), Russell Westbrook (8), Tyreke Evans (9), Tony Parker (10), Devin Harris (11) (would try to make a case for Baron Davis but he doesn't make his team much better)
Derrick Rose is a very good player, but you have to keep in mind that the league is full of unbelievably talented point guards. In my opinion Derrick Rose is not nearly a top 5 point guard YET. He most likely will become one, but he isn't there right now.
Woah woah woah, I'm not saying I agree that Rose is a top 5 pg but kmon, Jameer Nelson? He's a great shooter but if I'm sure majority of people are going to pick Rose over Nelson. As far as age wise id take Rose over Nash bc who knows how many rounds Steve has left in the tank. Same situation with BuBuBuBillups. Maybe because I'm a Bulls fan I'm gunna say id take Rose over Rondo because of how easily rose makes it look to get to the hoop. I also think Rose is a better shooter. Said that, D Will is the 2nd best pg in the league.
I'm not even going to get into the "personal" reasons. Rose IS NEAR the top 5 best pg in the league.
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Please. Top 5 point guards? Take off the red and black glasses.
Point guards I would take before Derrick Rose WITHOUT A QUESTION:
Steve Nash (1), Rajon Rondo (2), Derron Williams (3), Chauncey Billups (4), Jameer Nelson (5), Chris Paul (6)
Point guards that I personally would take over Derrick Rose, but you can make a case for Rose over them:
Brandon Jennings (7), Russell Westbrook (8), Tyreke Evans (9), Tony Parker (10), Devin Harris (11) (would try to make a case for Baron Davis but he doesn't make his team much better)
Derrick Rose is a very good player, but you have to keep in mind that the league is full of unbelievably talented point guards. In my opinion Derrick Rose is not nearly a top 5 point guard YET. He most likely will become one, but he isn't there right now.
Rose isn't a top 5 PG right now, but will easily be a future top 5 PG. Also, Westbrook, Evans, Parker & Harris cannot hold a candle to Rose.
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Woah woah woah, I'm not saying I agree that Rose is a top 5 pg but kmon, Jameer Nelson? He's a great shooter but if I'm sure majority of people are going to pick Rose over Nelson. As far as age wise id take Rose over Nash bc who knows how many rounds Steve has left in the tank. Same situation with BuBuBuBillups. Maybe because I'm a Bulls fan I'm gunna say id take Rose over Rondo because of how easily rose makes it look to get to the hoop. I also think Rose is a better shooter. Said that, D Will is the 2nd best pg in the league.
I'm not even going to get into the "personal" reasons. Rose IS NEAR the top 5 best pg in the league.
Like I said, he's close, but he's not there right now. The potential is there, but at this time he is not. Now, if I'm starting a brand new franchise then yes, he's a top 5 point guard pick because of age. But there is no way if you look at next season alone that you would take Rose over Nash. And there is NO way that you take Rose over Rondo, even if you take the long-term into consideration. Rondo is THE reason the Celtics are having success in the post season.Rose isn't a top 5 PG right now, but will easily be a future top 5 PG. Also, Westbrook, Evans, Parker & Harris cannot hold a candle to Rose.
Based on what? Tyreke Evans put up VERY similar numbers to what Rose did this season and he's playing in the Western Conference. Russell Westbrook put up slightly worse numbers but he's playing next to the NBA scoring champion in Kevin Durant to go along with Jeff Green and James Harden, so his opportunities to score will be less than a guy like Rose or Evans, who has an offense running through them, and he too is in the Western Conference. Tony Parker put up slightly worse numbers but same story as Westbrook, plus he has proven he can lead a team deep into the playoffs (and to championships). Harris slightly worse numbers, I'll say you're right for now, but I think if he was on a better team he may be one of the stars of the league. He was on his way to that with Dallas (awful trade by them, by the way).
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Please. Top 5 point guards? Take off the red and black glasses.
Point guards I would take before Derrick Rose WITHOUT A QUESTION:
Steve Nash (1), Rajon Rondo (2), Derron Williams (3), Chauncey Billups (4), Jameer Nelson (5), Chris Paul (6)
Point guards that I personally would take over Derrick Rose, but you can make a case for Rose over them:
Brandon Jennings (7), Russell Westbrook (8), Tyreke Evans (9), Tony Parker (10), Devin Harris (11) (would try to make a case for Baron Davis but he doesn't make his team much better)
Derrick Rose is a very good player, but you have to keep in mind that the league is full of unbelievably talented point guards. In my opinion Derrick Rose is not nearly a top 5 point guard YET. He most likely will become one, but he isn't there right now.
Rose is definitely a top5 pg. No way Jameer Nelson is even top 10, let alone top5. And Billups declined big time this year, not quite top5 material anymore. Did you see Rose against the Cavs? He was unstoppable, clearly the most talented scoring pg in the league. Plus, hes only 21 and getting better by the game. I find it absurd that you would take Jennings, Westbrook, or Devin Harris right now over Rose. Jennings and Westbrook can't shoot at all, and Devin Harris is nothing more than a stat stuffer on a historically bad team.
My order:
1-Deron Williams
2-Chris Paul (when healthy)
3-Nash
4-Rondo
5-Rose
And watch out for steph Curry-hes a stud, he has hall of fame level shooting ability and court awareness.
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Like I said, he's close, but he's not there right now. The potential is there, but at this time he is not. Now, if I'm starting a brand new franchise then yes, he's a top 5 point guard pick because of age. But there is no way if you look at next season alone that you would take Rose over Nash. And there is NO way that you take Rose over Rondo, even if you take the long-term into consideration. Rondo is THE reason the Celtics are having success in the post season.Based on what? Tyreke Evans put up VERY similar numbers to what Rose did this season and he's playing in the Western Conference. Russell Westbrook put up slightly worse numbers but he's playing next to the NBA scoring champion in Kevin Durant to go along with Jeff Green and James Harden, so his opportunities to score will be less than a guy like Rose or Evans, who has an offense running through them, and he too is in the Western Conference. Tony Parker put up slightly worse numbers but same story as Westbrook, plus he has proven he can lead a team deep into the playoffs (and to championships). Harris slightly worse numbers, I'll say you're right for now, but I think if he was on a better team he may be one of the stars of the league. He was on his way to that with Dallas (awful trade by them, by the way).
Rose had SIGNIFICANTLY better numbers than Harris, Parker or Westbrook. they averaged 16.9, 16 and 16.1 ppg, respectively, while Rose was 20.8 shooting 49%. I like Westbrook a lot, but he has a long way to go offensively. Just look at his fg %. I know that they play different styles, but Rose is the focal point of the opponent's defense every night, which isn't the case for Westbrook or Parker.
On another note, did anyone notice how old Parker looked this playoffs? Maybe it was just the injuries, but he seems to have lost a step. Spurs were much more dangerous with George Hill running the point.
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Rose had SIGNIFICANTLY better numbers than Harris, Parker or Westbrook. they averaged 16.9, 16 and 16.1 ppg, respectively, while Rose was 20.8 shooting 49%. I like Westbrook a lot, but he has a long way to go offensively. Just look at his fg %. I know that they play different styles, but Rose is the focal point of the opponent's defense every night, which isn't the case for Westbrook or Parker.
On another note, did anyone notice how old Parker looked this playoffs? Maybe it was just the injuries, but he seems to have lost a step. Spurs were much more dangerous with George Hill running the point.
I guess it depends on what you want your PG to do - if you are talking purely about scoring PGs then Rose is in the top 5 (with the likes of deron williams and rajon rondo). If you are talking an all-around PG, I would put him just outside the top 5 behind (in no particular order) williams, paul, rondo, nash, and billups.
And as an aside - I'm not sure why everyone is hating on Jameer Nelson - he's been a solid PG once he fully recovered. I would put him in my top 10.
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My order:
1-Deron Williams
2-Chris Paul (when healthy)
3-Nash
4-Rondo
5-Rose
This looks about right to me. Westbrook is a very close 6th.
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I guess it depends on what you want your PG to do - if you are talking purely about scoring PGs then Rose is in the top 5 (with the likes of deron williams and rajon rondo). If you are talking an all-around PG, I would put him just outside the top 5 behind (in no particular order) williams, paul, rondo, nash, and billups.
And as an aside - I'm not sure why everyone is hating on Jameer Nelson - he's been a solid PG once he fully recovered. I would put him in my top 10.
I agree with this. In terms of scoring point guards he's in the top 5, but in terms of point guards I want running my team he's somewhere between 6-11 CURRENTLY. Again, if I'm starting a brand new team and am looking long term I would probably take Rose 4th, but as of today he's not in my top 5.
And I also agree about Jameer. The Magic are a MUCH better team when Nelson is healthy, as he is right now. He's had an absolute dominant playoffs so far, just like Rondo has.
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For someone talking about what LeBron would look for in a teammate, Nash and Billups aren't worth mentioning. Never mind that neither of their teams will be in the running to sign him, but in Rose he would have a player who could help him win titles for the next 7-8 years. Can't say that about Nash or Billups, so don't bother putting them in the conversation.
As far as where he will end up, it depends on what he wants. If he wants the biggest contract, he'll stay in Cleveland. If he wants mass marketability he'll go to New York. And if he wants to win titles, he'll go to Chicago. No player, not Shaq, Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Kareem, Oscar Robertson, or Tim Duncan could win a title alone. You need at least 2 top level players and a solid supporting cast. Only the Bulls have that now. Well, he could also consider Miami, but would either LBJ or D-Wade want to share the spotlight?
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I find it absurd that you would take Jennings, Westbrook, or Devin Harris right now over Rose. Jennings and Westbrook can't shoot at all, and Devin Harris is nothing more than a stat stuffer on a historically bad team.
I probably wouldn't take Harris over him, but I don't think Harris is far off. I would take Westbrook and I would take Jennings. Jennings shot 37% from 3 point range. He can definitely shoot the ball, it's his shot selection that needs work. If he can work on knocking down his mid-range jumpers this summer he is going to be absolutely lethal. And if you want to look at 1 game see 55 points, 7 games into his NBA career (highest point total in the NBA this year as well). Or at one series look at Jennings vs. the Hawks. He absolutely CARRIED the Bucks to a 7 game series.
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And if he wants to win titles, he'll go to Chicago. No player, not Shaq, Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Kareem, Oscar Robertson, or Tim Duncan could win a title alone. You need at least 2 top level players and a solid supporting cast. Only the Bulls have that now. Well, he could also consider Miami, but would either LBJ or D-Wade want to share the spotlight?
Here's a quote of a post I made earlier. This could be a better lineup than one that the Bulls could put together with Lebron on the team.
A starting lineup of:
- PG Baron Davis
- SG Eric Gordon
- SF Lebron James
- PF Blake Griffin
- C Chris Kaman
With Butler and Gooden (if he's not a free agent) being the first two off the bench is REALLY good. With Kobe getting up there in basketball years (a 31 year old with 13 years of experience is much different than a 31 year old with 9 years of experience), Lebron would have the opportunity to steal the spotlight that is Hollywood from Kobe and turn a perennial bottom feeder into a championship contender. The only downside of this is that the Clippers play in the Western Conference, where every night is a grind, compared to the JV that is the Eastern Conference.
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Here's a quote of a post I made earlier. This could be a better lineup than one that the Bulls could put together with Lebron on the team.
It's not better than...
PG: Rose > Davis
SG: Lebron
SF: Deng >= Gordon
PF: Bosh > Griffin
C: Noah > Kaman
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I probably wouldn't take Harris over him, but I don't think Harris is far off. I would take Westbrook and I would take Jennings. Jennings shot 37% from 3 point range. He can definitely shoot the ball, it's his shot selection that needs work. If he can work on knocking down his mid-range jumpers this summer he is going to be absolutely lethal. And if you want to look at 1 game see 55 points, 7 games into his NBA career (highest point total in the NBA this year as well). Or at one series look at Jennings vs. the Hawks. He absolutely CARRIED the Bucks to a 7 game series.
I guess we just agree to disagree on Harris. I was never convinced he was the type to make a team better. If he was truly an elite pg, the Mavs never would've traded him so early, or the Nets wouldn't be looking to replace him.
Agree on Jennings, long term its a toss up between him and Rose, maybe Jennings has more upside as a true pg. He just has more holes in his game than Rose right now.
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It's not better than...
PG: Rose > Davis
SG: Lebron
SF: Deng >= Gordon
PF: Bosh > Griffin
C: Noah > Kaman
I don't think the Bulls will look to sign 2 max guys. They would have to decimate the rest of their roster to do it, and that would make signing Rose to his next contract in a couple years almost impossible. I'm sure the Chi front office would prefer Rose over Bosh or Amare both long term and right now.
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Agree on Jennings, long term its a toss up between him and Rose, maybe Jennings has more upside as a true pg. He just has more holes in his game than Rose right now.
I don't think the Bulls will look to sign 2 max guys. They would have to decimate the rest of their roster to do it, and that would make signing Rose to his next contract in a couple years almost impossible. I'm sure the Chi front office would prefer Rose over Bosh or Amare both long term and right now.
Agreed and agreed. If Bosh is in Chicago (which he'll be in Miami anyway), then Lebron isn't in Chicago (which I don't think he will be anyway). Also, I definitely do not think Noah>Kaman.
Noah: 11 ppg, 11 rpg, 50% fg, 74% ft, 1.5 blocks/gm, 2 turnovers/gm, 2 apg
Kaman: 19 ppg, 9 rpg, 49% fg, 75% ft, 1.2 blocks/gm, 3 turnovers/gm, 2 apg
Gimme Kaman.
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Agreed and agreed. If Bosh is in Chicago (which he'll be in Miami anyway), then Lebron isn't in Chicago (which I don't think he will be anyway). Also, I definitely do not think Noah>Kaman.
Noah: 11 ppg, 11 rpg, 50% fg, 74% ft, 1.5 blocks/gm, 2 turnovers/gm, 2 apg
Kaman: 19 ppg, 9 rpg, 49% fg, 75% ft, 1.2 blocks/gm, 3 turnovers/gm, 2 apg
Gimme Kaman.
If you were going to base your opinion solely on scoring, why did you post their entire stat line? Noah has better stats across the board with the exception of scoring, and the Bulls don't ask Noah to do a lot of scoring.
Noah's younger and IMO would be a much better role player playing along a couple of "studs" than Kaman would. I will also add, I was completely wrong about Noah. I thought for sure he would be a bust.
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If you were going to base your opinion solely on scoring, why did you post their entire stat line? Noah has better stats across the board with the exception of scoring, and the Bulls don't ask Noah to do a lot of scoring.
Noah's younger and IMO would be a much better role player playing along a couple of "studs" than Kaman would. I will also add, I was completely wrong about Noah. I thought for sure he would be a bust.
I'm looking at it overall. Kaman scores 8 more ppg, Noah gets 2 more rpg, they shoot almost identical numbers, they get almost identical blocks and assists, and Kaman has 1 more turnover per game. Even if you take those 2 extra rebounds and 1 less turnover and turn them into a field goal each, that's 6 points, still not covering the difference in points per game. And not all those turnovers and rebounds turn into a field goal. Overall Kaman has better numbers.
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I'm looking at it overall. Kaman scores 8 more ppg, Noah gets 2 more rpg, they shoot almost identical numbers, they get almost identical blocks and assists, and Kaman has 1 more turnover per game. Even if you take those 2 extra rebounds and 1 less turnover and turn them into a field goal each, that's 6 points, still not covering the difference in points per game. And not all those turnovers and rebounds turn into a field goal. Overall Kaman has better numbers.
How large is your boner for everything against Chicago?
Not a single NBA expert would take Kaman over Noah right now.
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I'm looking at it overall. Kaman scores 8 more ppg, Noah gets 2 more rpg, they shoot almost identical numbers, they get almost identical blocks and assists, and Kaman has 1 more turnover per game. Even if you take those 2 extra rebounds and 1 less turnover and turn them into a field goal each, that's 6 points, still not covering the difference in points per game. And not all those turnovers and rebounds turn into a field goal. Overall Kaman has better numbers.
But it's not just numbers. Its about fit and the role they play within the team. If you have Bosh, Kaman I don't think makes much sense clogging up the middle. Noah IMO would fit much better on a front line that includes Bosh or even James.
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Change the title of thread from "IF". I believe he will leave now after the Cavs unless there are significant changes with personnel. Start with the coach.
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Did anyone else feel the cavs just gave up there? Do they have something against Mike Brown? I heard there was a little argument about playing times, but I don't know. I do have to say the Cavs did show class exiting.
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Don't discount the Nets guys. The appeal of John Wall/NYC market is much better Rose/Chicago market. Plus you already know Lebron loves Jay-Z and Brooklyn.
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How large is your boner for everything against Chicago?
Not a single NBA expert would take Kaman over Noah right now.
You're sure about that? People like Noah because he works very hard. He is always going to be a roll player though. He will never score more than about 12 ppg. What makes him so much better than Kaman?
I don't have things against Chicago, I'm just pointing out that not all things are red and black in this world. It's hilarious what people think Chicago is going to get. I remember when they fired Scott Skiles my Chicago friends said they were going to get Coach K, Tom Izzo, Mike D'Antoni. Then there is the whole Dwyane Wade, Lebron James, Chris Bosh all want to play in Chicago. And this is how it is every time there is an opening. Hell, Kobe, Durant, and Deron Williams are all going to demand to be traded to the Bulls to, I hear.
I don't think Rose is a top 5 point guard RIGHT NOW in the NBA. Shucks, I must hate Chicago, because Rondo, Nash, Williams, Paul, Billups are all so far behind Rose. Right.
And because I point out that a different center puts up better numbers than Joakim Noah, who I think is a good player because he plays very hard, but does not have the talent to ever become a star. Well, clearly I just hate Chicago. Right.
And to the person who seems to think Lebron and Bosh are both going to Chicago, it isn't going to happen. They don't have cap room for 2 max contracts, so get over that idea. Either Bosh isn't there or Lebron isn't there (or both, which is the most likely scenario).
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Well, I guess the GM's have red and black colored glasses too.
In the space of five minutes I heard from three NBA GMs via text, e-mail and phone. All three said that based on the information they have, they believe LeBron will leave the Cavs.
More surprisingly, all of them said they believe the destination will be the Chicago Bulls. Two said they believe that John Calipari will be the Bulls' new head coach.
http://espn.go.com/blog/TrueHoop/post/_/id/15881/lebron-to-the-bulls-3-gms-think-so
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And to the person who seems to think Lebron and Bosh are both going to Chicago, it isn't going to happen. They don't have cap room for 2 max contracts, so get over that idea. Either Bosh isn't there or Lebron isn't there (or both, which is the most likely scenario).
Other than ESPN just reporting that Bosh could come in a sign and trade. They already have room for a midlevel player, and if they deal Hinrich and Deng (who becomes expendable with LBJ at the 3) they'd have plenty of cap space. But in my opinion, that won't happen. I do think the Bulls will sign LeBron, but I expect Bosh to head to either New York or Miami. The Bulls already have a solid young PF in Taj Gibson, what they really need is a shooting guard who can knock down the three. Guess what...Ray Allen's a free agent. My bet is the Bulls starting five looks like this next year:
PG Rose
SG Allen
SF James
PF Gibson
C Noah
It has become clear that the Cavs don't have a complimentary player good enough to help LBJ to the title, and in all honesty, I'd take Noah over anyone else on the Cavs outside of LeBron. Chicago is the only place he can go to where he will be guaranteed to be playing with another marquee player yet still will be the man (as Wade is well established in Miami...they'd never work together). Everyone is saying the Knicks, but LeBron has spent the past 7 years of his career trying to lift a crappy team with a weak supporting cast to a title and it hasn't worked. For that reason, he'll avoid another rebuilding project in New York and head to the house that Mike built.
So will he ever match Michael's accomplishments? Will he win 6 titles? 10 scoring titles? 3 more MVP awards? Who knows? No one, and the odds are he won't match Michael's numbers but with a solid young core, cap space to add another midlevel player, and a city large enough to provide all the marketing oppotunities he could ask for, the Bulls make the most sense for LeBron.
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I used to think viking fans were the most delusional in all of sports. I now see a challenger has emerged in the Bull fans on this board.
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I used to think viking fans were the most delusional in all of sports. I now see a challenger has emerged in the Bull fans on this board.
I don't see how it's delusional when most of the experts I've seen tonight are saying he'll end up in Chicago. It's the only team that has both the money to sign him and a marquee level player already in place. I think anyone who knows anything about basketball would say that Rose is likely to become a superstar, health permitting. The guy wasn't the first pick in the draft, rookie of the year, and an all-star by his second season for no reason.
And anyone who follows the NBA knows you need at least two stars to win a title. Kobe needed Shaq (and later Gasol). Michael needed Pippen. Robertson needed Kareem. Kareem needed Magic. Garnett needed Pierce and Allen. Who do the Knicks have? The Nets? Only the Bulls have that guy now. I'm not saying the other teams couldn't sign another guy, but in Chicago, LBJ doesn't have to wait to see if that guy will sign, because he's already under contract.
I'm not saying it's anywhere near a done deal, but Chicago as a destination for LeBron makes a lot more sense than most of the other places he's rumored to go, especially in light of his "Cleveland was lucky to have me for 7 years" rant from the other day.
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I used to think viking fans were the most delusional in all of sports. I now see a challenger has emerged in the Bull fans on this board.
+1
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+1
Delusional is thinking that Brett Favre will decide if he is going to play before late summer.... This is not delusional, when multiple people in the know are saying that it is a legitimate posibility, and likely the best possibility if Lebron doesn't stay in Cleveland. If it doesn't happen, it will be squarely due to LBJ wanting to go another direction, but it is obvious that many are already afraid of the possibilities.
Delusional would be for a Bucks fan to believe they could make the finals in the next 5-7 yrs if this does happen (or any other eastern conference fan for that matter). Let me say this, at this point LBJ has a bigger chip on his shoulder than any top tier athlete in any sport, and if he ends up in Chicago he will not settle for 1 or 2 rings (and our beloved coach Cal the same). Now its just time for the Bulls to make it happen...
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Delusional is thinking that Brett Favre will decide if he is going to play before late summer.... This is not delusional, when multiple people in the know are saying that it is a legitimate posibility, and likely the best possibility if Lebron doesn't stay in Cleveland. If it doesn't happen, it will be squarely due to LBJ wanting to go another direction, but it is obvious that many are already afraid of the possibilities.
Delusional would be for a Bucks fan to believe they could make the finals in the next 5-7 yrs if this does happen (or any other eastern conference fan for that matter). Let me say this, at this point LBJ has a bigger chip on his shoulder than any top tier athlete in any sport, and if he ends up in Chicago he will not settle for 1 or 2 rings (and our beloved coach Cal the same). Now its just time for the Bulls to make it happen...
Ok, perhaps its not delusional to say that Lebron may consider Chicago. However, it is delusional to say it is the best destination, and that their roster is SOOO much better than others rosters who are in the running.
In my opinion NY Knicks is the #1 option. Lebron has made it very public that he wants to be a global icon, and there is no where better to do this than NY, and no where else (not even chicago/LA) really comes close. The opportunity to play at madison square garden in manhattan will be a major draw to Lebron. The only thing is there is NO ONE around him. However, if they can sign Bosh and Lebron they would be an amazing pair in the D'antonio system. I think Lebron would love the chance to from the the slow boring cleveland system to the fast break run and gun d'antonio system. He has said he wants to be the first billionaire athlete, and NYC is the best place for a person who wants to be greater than the sport. Doesn't make the most sense from a basketball standpoint, but I really thing lebron cares about more than just winning basketball games.
New Jersey Nets. Jersey has an all-star PG in devin harris already, the potential for another in wall, chris douglas-roberts, courtney lee, brook lopez, yi jianlian, and terrence williams. Thats a pretty decent nucleus. You also have to include the Jay-Z factor. And the fact that they are moving to a brand new, state of the art stadium in brooklyn, so he will get his NY exposure. But you have to wonder if he would want to spend 2 years in Jersey before they make the move.
LA Clippers. LA is the second largest market and the clips have a great core of young players already in eric gordon, blake griffen, chris kaman, deandre jordan and travis outlaw. he might see it as a challenge to compete with kobe for popularity in LA.
Heat. The allure of South Beach + Dwade is huge, but it will be hard for them to sign both. And they apparently loved playing with each other for team USA.
Orlando Magic? If they can deal lewis they should have enough cap to sign him. Plus no income tax in florida. Imagine lebron and dwight howard. This is his destination is championships are truly the most important to him.
And the craziest option: Lebron in Europe. Its rumored that the billionaire brothers who own the team that Josh Childress plays for is planning on offering Lebron 50-80 Mil/year in the uncapped Euro League. What better way to increase his international exposure? Go play in Europe for 2 years, make 100+ mil, and come back just in time for the Nets grand move to Brooklyn.
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I don't think it's necessarily false to say that Chicago has the best combination of cap space to offer and a roster already in place. They have a point guard. They have some decent role players (Gibson, Noah). Of all the teams with a bunch of space available, only Miami and Chicago made the playoffs.
The Knicks can offer two max contracts. However, I'm not sure that they have anybody else worth mentioning on that team. The Nets might have a better supporting cast...but I don't think it's better than the Cavs.
And the D'Antoni "system" is a bit of a joke. Works great in the regular season, but come playoff time you actually have to play defense.
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If he leaves Cleveland, it's going to be Chicago or New York. Suggesting otherwise is idiocy.
Wadesworld has the biggest inferiority complex I've ever encountered in a Milwaukeean...and that's saying a LOT.
Like it or not, thanks to Jordan the Chicago Bulls are one of the NBA's glamor franchises. They are right up there with the Lakers and the Celtics. The Knicks like to think they are because of the city they play in, but they've been irrelevant for 35 years. Unless he stays with Cleveland or the Knicks give him the keys to their front office, the Bulls make the most sense given the city itself, their cap space, roster and, yes, their global and national popularity.
You look like a complete insecure loser to suggest otherwise.
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If he leaves Cleveland, it's going to be Chicago or New York. Suggesting otherwise is idiocy.
Wadesworld has the biggest inferiority complex I've ever encountered in a Milwaukeean...and that's saying a LOT.
Like it or not, thanks to Jordan the Chicago Bulls are one of the NBA's glamor franchises. They are right up there with the Lakers and the Celtics. The Knicks like to think they are because of the city they play in, but they've been irrelevant for 35 years. Unless he stays with Cleveland or the Knicks give him the keys to their front office, the Bulls make the most sense given the city itself, their cap space, roster and, yes, their global and national popularity.
You look like a complete insecure loser to suggest otherwise.
I'm not saying that they aren't a good destination for Lebron James. I am saying that they aren't going to get every player that they think they can. Let's be honest here, we've heard numerous combination of what players the Bulls will get. To think they will get Lebron and Bosh, now that is idiocy. According to people on here, they will get Lebron and Bosh, Boozer and Johnson, Wade, Lebron, Bosh, AND Ray Allen, etc. Would I be shocked to see the Bulls get Lebron? Nope. Would I be shocked to see the Bulls get Lebron, Bosh, and Ray Allen? HELL YEAH! Again, at that point, why not throw in Kevin Durant and Dwight Howard? In fact, let's just make this the entire Eastern Conference All-Star Team.Delusional is thinking that Brett Favre will decide if he is going to play before late summer.... This is not delusional, when multiple people in the know are saying that it is a legitimate posibility, and likely the best possibility if Lebron doesn't stay in Cleveland. If it doesn't happen, it will be squarely due to LBJ wanting to go another direction, but it is obvious that many are already afraid of the possibilities.
Delusional would be for a Bucks fan to believe they could make the finals in the next 5-7 yrs if this does happen (or any other eastern conference fan for that matter). Let me say this, at this point LBJ has a bigger chip on his shoulder than any top tier athlete in any sport, and if he ends up in Chicago he will not settle for 1 or 2 rings (and our beloved coach Cal the same). Now its just time for the Bulls to make it happen...
Again, wouldn't be shocked to see him in Chicago. I still do not think it's the most likely, or even 2nd most likely, option there is, but wouldn't be shocked by it. I WOULD be shocked by him, Bosh, and Ray Allen, or even him and Bosh, both being in Chicago.
And honestly? You think the Bulls would make it SEVEN straight years to the NBA Finals? I'm not sure if you've checked out the Magic's roster recently, but they're pretty stacked. You've seen what Lebron and his teams do (or don't do) in the playoffs. All it takes is ONE bad series in SEVEN years. Now THAT is delusional.
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Wadesworld, if you spent as much time reading posts as you do attacking them, you might understand why people think your responses are a bit ridiculous. No one is saying the Bulls will sign everyone on the market, only that LeBron and another max guy via a sign and trade is possible. And no one said 7 straight Finals appearances, only that he likely wouldn't be satisfied with one or two titles.
Please calm down and realize that while we may be optimistic about our chances of landing LBJ6, we don't think he will come from on high with Jesus signing on to play the 2.
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Wadesworld, if you spent as much time reading posts as you do attacking them, you might understand why people think your responses are a bit ridiculous. No one is saying the Bulls will sign everyone on the market, only that LeBron and another max guy via a sign and trade is possible. And no one said 7 straight Finals appearances, only that he likely wouldn't be satisfied with one or two titles.
Please calm down and realize that while we may be optimistic about our chances of landing LBJ6, we don't think he will come from on high with Jesus signing on to play the 2.
Delusional would be for a Bucks fan to believe they could make the finals in the next 5-7 yrs if this does happen (or any other eastern conference fan for that matter).
My reading comprehension may be off on this, but to me that looks to be saying that it is delusional to think that the Bulls WOULD NOT make the NBA Finals 7 straight years. Otherwise I'm not sure why he would say that any Eastern Conference fan would be delusional for thinking their team DID have a shot to make the NBA Finals.
My reading comprehension may be wrong on that, though.
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Hmm...looking at that I would agree with you. MUDimitri is being more than a bit over-optimistic. Reading this on my phone and missed his parenthetical.
Regardless, getting LeBron and one other significant player (Allen, Johnson, even Bosh) is not out of the realm of possibility and if it happens, the Bulls would certainly be labeled a contender every year. Winning 4-5 titles in the next 7 years would not be an impossible dream. However, any Bulls fan that thinks LeBron will automatically sign up for the max 5 year deal may be delusional. If he leaves Cleveland, I think he'll sign a 3-year so he can sign a max deal under the Larry Bird rule that much sooner.
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I'm not saying that they aren't a good destination for Lebron James. I am saying that they aren't going to get every player that they think they can. Let's be honest here, we've heard numerous combination of what players the Bulls will get. To think they will get Lebron and Bosh, now that is idiocy. According to people on here, they will get Lebron and Bosh, Boozer and Johnson, Wade, Lebron, Bosh, AND Ray Allen, etc. Would I be shocked to see the Bulls get Lebron? Nope. Would I be shocked to see the Bulls get Lebron, Bosh, and Ray Allen? HELL YEAH! Again, at that point, why not throw in Kevin Durant and Dwight Howard? In fact, let's just make this the entire Eastern Conference All-Star Team.Again, wouldn't be shocked to see him in Chicago. I still do not think it's the most likely, or even 2nd most likely, option there is, but wouldn't be shocked by it. I WOULD be shocked by him, Bosh, and Ray Allen, or even him and Bosh, both being in Chicago.
Not saying that it will happen, but it is possible. See the 2000 Orlando Magic, 2008 Boston Celtics, 2004 LA Lakers. Those teams brought in major talent in one offseason. 2 of them made the Finals that year and 1 obviously won it all.
It's a pipe dream, sure...but it's not out of the realm of possibility that Chicago takes on 2 star players on top of having Rose and Noah. I take all of this LeBron, Bosh, Wade, JJ, etc talk with a grain of salt. I mean, remember when Kobe was supposed to be a Bull? It's the same thing to me and I'm not going to be delusional about what possible scenarios could take place this NBA offseason.
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Please. Top 5 point guards? Take off the red and black glasses.
Point guards I would take before Derrick Rose WITHOUT A QUESTION:
Steve Nash (1), Rajon Rondo (2), Derron Williams (3), Chauncey Billups (4), Jameer Nelson (5), Chris Paul (6)
Point guards that I personally would take over Derrick Rose, but you can make a case for Rose over them:
Brandon Jennings (7), Russell Westbrook (8), Tyreke Evans (9), Tony Parker (10), Devin Harris (11) (would try to make a case for Baron Davis but he doesn't make his team much better)
Derrick Rose is a very good player, but you have to keep in mind that the league is full of unbelievably talented point guards. In my opinion Derrick Rose is not nearly a top 5 point guard YET. He most likely will become one, but he isn't there right now.
Brandon Jennings and I'm wearing glasses?
If you were having a pg draft Nash and billops wouldn't be there due to age. Chris paul is an injury risk. You are overrating Nelson. Brandon Jennings was pedestrian the 2nd half of the season, lets see him make the all star team in his 2nd year before we get impressed. I'm not even going ot address Tyreke Evans who isn't in roses league.
We aren't talking about 1 game tomorrow. If you were going to pick a pg to play with for the next 8 years rose is easily top 5.
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Hmm...looking at that I would agree with you. MUDimitri is being more than a bit over-optimistic. Reading this on my phone and missed his parenthetical.
Hey Wades, could you try to put in a space in between what you have quoted and your own posts? They are impossible to read on a mobile browser.
THHHHHHAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNKKKKKKKSSSSS
(http://www.hybridcars.com/files/imagecache/article_lead_image/files/graphics/south-park-smug-313.gif)
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Just gotta say a few things... I grew up in Cleveland and subsequently have been a Cleveland sports fan all my life, yes even before LeBron. Last night's game was such a disappointment because the Cavs gave up and the effort was not there. Complete lack of urgency or need/desire to win.
That said, I really think LBJ will stay in Cleveland, but Chicago would be the only other option if you ask me. They have a good young core, but also they haven't been able to hire the right coach and maintain the past few years, so what makes you think LBJ wants to work for that type of front office? That said, Cleveland will have to fire Mike Brown and make a push for a substantial head coach to not just bow down to LeBron. In press conferences, etc you always just hear Mike Brown kissing LeBron's a$$ and saying how great he was, but you'll never hear that from Phil Jackson on Kobe. The Cavs actually have some strong young talent as well that I think people nationally are overlooking as well (Delonte West, Mo Williams, JJ Hickson, Anderson Varejou) [NOTE: Yes some of those young "talents" have struggled in the playoffs *Mo Williams in particular* but it's a learning process for them as well to get that kill or be killed mentality just like LBJ is learning]
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Just gotta say a few things... I grew up in Cleveland and subsequently have been a Cleveland sports fan all my life, yes even before LeBron. Last night's game was such a disappointment because the Cavs gave up and the effort was not there. Complete lack of urgency or need/desire to win.
That said, I really think LBJ will stay in Cleveland, but Chicago would be the only other option if you ask me. They have a good young core, but also they haven't been able to hire the right coach and maintain the past few years, so what makes you think LBJ wants to work for that type of front office? That said, Cleveland will have to fire Mike Brown and make a push for a substantial head coach to not just bow down to LeBron. In press conferences, etc you always just hear Mike Brown kissing LeBron's a$$ and saying how great he was, but you'll never hear that from Phil Jackson on Kobe. The Cavs actually have some strong young talent as well that I think people nationally are overlooking as well (Delonte West, Mo Williams, JJ Hickson, Anderson Varejou) [NOTE: Yes some of those young "talents" have struggled in the playoffs *Mo Williams in particular* but it's a learning process for them as well to get that kill or be killed mentality just like LBJ is learning]
I am scared about the kill or be killed mentality. I don't feel like thats something you learn, i feel like its something you have or don't have. Two things stood out to me last night. The first was that on4 or 5 half court breaks, lebron had the ball and instead of taking it down the court, he literally threw the ball across the court to mo williams. The passed even looked odd, it was like an underhand flip that travel 90 miles per hour across the court. The other thing that has to stand out was when they didn't foul in the last minute and just dribbled the ball up non chalantly weith 40 secionds left. Kobe or MJ, or any coach that values his job would have been screaming bloody murder, and at least tried to win the game. It almost seemed that not just lebron, but the whole cavaliers franchise just gave up in the last minute.
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Brandon Jennings and I'm wearing glasses?
If you were having a pg draft Nash and billops wouldn't be there due to age. Chris paul is an injury risk. You are overrating Nelson. Brandon Jennings was pedestrian the 2nd half of the season, lets see him make the all star team in his 2nd year before we get impressed. I'm not even going ot address Tyreke Evans who isn't in roses league.
We aren't talking about 1 game tomorrow. If you were going to pick a pg to play with for the next 8 years rose is easily top 5.
I agree with this. Like I said, if I'm drafting a point guard for the future Rose comes up at 4 to me. I'd take Williams, Rondo, and Paul (too good to pass up despite some injuries) over him. I was just pointing out that as of today Rose was not a top 5 point guard.
And Jennings had an unbelievable year and is only going to get better with maturity, which will lead to better shot selection. In my opinion, with proper work, he has the potential to be a better all-around point guard than Derrick Rose. As of right now, Rose is more proven, but if Jennings can consistently knock down mid-range jump shots, he's going to be lethal. He gets to the paint at will and shot 37% from 3 point range this year. He's quicker than just about anybody in the game and can create for his teammates.
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I am scared about the kill or be killed mentality. I don't feel like thats something you learn, i feel like its something you have or don't have. Two things stood out to me last night. The first was that on4 or 5 half court breaks, lebron had the ball and instead of taking it down the court, he literally threw the ball across the court to mo williams. The passed even looked odd, it was like an underhand flip that travel 90 miles per hour across the court. The other thing that has to stand out was when they didn't foul in the last minute and just dribbled the ball up non chalantly weith 40 secionds left. Kobe or MJ, or any coach that values his job would have been screaming bloody murder, and at least tried to win the game. It almost seemed that not just lebron, but the whole cavaliers franchise just gave up in the last minute.
Unfortunately I totally agree. It was completely degrading to see my team just give up and not even care enough to foul in the end. LBJ clearly wasn't right for 5 of those 6 games... I have not a clue as to why, but he wasn't right.
I disagree though with the kill or be killed mentality. I think it takes a few bad losses to build that hunger and to almost humble you and create that hunger to want to reach the peak of a champion even more. To some degree I see what you're saying, but even Kobe needed time to develop into the cold blooded killer he is regarded as today... also a good consistent jump shot might help :)
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If for no other reason than because I really dislike the NBA, I'm going to throw this little nugget out there.
To paraphrase Scott Boras: "You don't pay for an elite player, an elite player pays for himself."
The marginal revenue gain of signing an elite player is greater in a city like Milwaukee and Indianapolis than it is in Cleveland, Chicago, Miami, NY or LA. How many more tickets will the Bulls sell if they sign D-Wade when most of their games are pretty much sold-out already? Same question for the other "elite" cities.
Cleveland stands to lose the most with the departure of LeBron, but cities like Milwaukee, Indianapolis, etc. have the most to gain. You put a D-Wade or LeBron-type player in Milwaukee or Indianapolis, and you might very well double last year's revenue before the season even starts.
At the end of the day, it's all about the money. Players and owners want more of it, period. They all could give a rat's behind about winning a championship as long as they're getting paid.
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If for no other reason than because I really dislike the NBA, I'm going to throw this little nugget out there.
To paraphrase Scott Boras: "You don't pay for an elite player, an elite player pays for himself."
The marginal revenue gain of signing an elite player is greater in a city like Milwaukee and Indianapolis than it is in Cleveland, Chicago, Miami, NY or LA. How many more tickets will the Bulls sell if they sign D-Wade when most of their games are pretty much sold-out already? Same question for the other "elite" cities.
Cleveland stands to lose the most with the departure of LeBron, but cities like Milwaukee, Indianapolis, etc. have the most to gain. You put a D-Wade or LeBron-type player in Milwaukee or Indianapolis, and you might very well double last year's revenue before the season even starts.
At the end of the day, it's all about the money. Players and owners want more of it, period. They all could give a rat's behind about winning a championship as long as they're getting paid.
It is all about the money and the owners' investment, but there's also salary cap rules and restrictions. Milwaukee and Indianapolis and about 24 other teams do not have the money or space to add a LeBron or D Wade. I see what you are getting at, but there's just too many reasons why that won't and can't happen.
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Just gotta say a few things... I grew up in Cleveland and subsequently have been a Cleveland sports fan all my life, yes even before LeBron.
Liar. There was no Cleveland before LeBron.
;)
Seriously though, I do have questions about his killer instinct, but listening to Chicago sports radio right now is simply ridiculous. Everyone is saying "He's not as good as Jordan, he doesn't compare to Jordan..."
Well, duh. LeBron is 25 years old. Jordan didn't win his first title until he was 27. We talk about Michael's killer instinct, his ability to dominate in the Finals, but would he have had it to the same level without players like Pippen and Grant alongside him? Or later, Pippen, Rodman, and Harper? No one can win a title on their own, and LeBron is no exception. Put him on a team with another superstar or two, and maybe he'll show that he does have that killer instinct. And maybe more importantly, give him a coach that can teach him how to take his own team by the throat and drag them to the promised land, much like how Phil Jackson did with both MJ and Kobe.
However...a big part of me does wonder if that can be taught. After all, Jordan did hit that shot at North Carolina, foreshadowing his killer instinct. Same thing with Dwyane Wade's triple double lifting Marquette over Kentucky, a possible precursor to his title win in Miami. Big players do big things in big moments, and James has yet to prove that he can seize that on the highest stage. But that being said, any Bulls fan would have to be stupid to think that happy memories of Jordan mean they shouldn't want LeBron. I'd love to give a collective kick to the heads of all Bulls fans that are indicating otherwise.
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After watching the last couple of games in the series it appeared as if the Cavaliers were not playing as a team and didn't have any fire or intensity. Is there some stuff going on between the players in the locker room, or the coach and the players, or both.
It was unsettling to see the way they played last night, yet in the NBA during the season it is par for the course for most teams/players. That being said, as a Bulls fan it is w/in the realm of possibility and as a fanbase how could you not be excited. After his post-game press conference game I will be surprised if he stays.
The Bulls were awful for what is it ten years or so until we got Rose, in which we are now a decent team. If we get a scorer we will be able to contend.
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A few things after actually reading some of the comments here:
1. Chicago does make some sense for LBJ with a strong young core
2. Chicago's front office doesn't exactly have a stellar background
3. Noah and Rose are entering their final years under contract... if Rose continues to evolve into a superstar who is to say he'd want to stay in CHI and continue to play Robin to LeBron's Batman? Keep in mind most NBA players are as egotistical as they come, whether or not you want to realize it.
4. The Lakers and Celtics are the ONLY franchises that have any glamour appeal, other than that no one
5. Chicagoans on this board are going to hate my number 4 point
6. Cleveland actually has a decent young core itself (no not as good as Chicago's, but certainly better than the Knicks!)
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Liar. There was no Cleveland before LeBron.
;)
Seriously though, I do have questions about his killer instinct, but listening to Chicago sports radio right now is simply ridiculous. Everyone is saying "He's not as good as Jordan, he doesn't compare to Jordan..."
Well, duh. LeBron is 25 years old. Jordan didn't win his first title until he was 27. We talk about Michael's killer instinct, his ability to dominate in the Finals, but would he have had it to the same level without players like Pippen and Grant alongside him? Or later, Pippen, Rodman, and Harper? No one can win a title on their own, and LeBron is no exception. Put him on a team with another superstar or two, and maybe he'll show that he does have that killer instinct. And maybe more importantly, give him a coach that can teach him how to take his own team by the throat and drag them to the promised land, much like how Phil Jackson did with both MJ and Kobe.
However...a big part of me does wonder if that can be taught. After all, Jordan did hit that shot at North Carolina, foreshadowing his killer instinct. Same thing with Dwyane Wade's triple double lifting Marquette over Kentucky, a possible precursor to his title win in Miami. Big players do big things in big moments, and James has yet to prove that he can seize that on the highest stage. But that being said, any Bulls fan would have to be stupid to think that happy memories of Jordan mean they shouldn't want LeBron. I'd love to give a collective kick to the heads of all Bulls fans that are indicating otherwise.
Haha part of me wished I was a liar, but yes I was there when Ricky Davis tried to achieve a triple double by shooting at our own hoop, or the fugly days of Shawn Kemp and some of the ugliest jersey's in the history of the NBA (though I wish they'd wear them once per year still to pay respects to Brandon Terrel and Tyrone Hill, lol).
I think it's tough to say for LBJ on the killer instincts. He didn't play in college so he didn't have to appear on that stage for his "foreshadowing" moment of greatness ala D Wade and MJ. If anything, I say that game 5 of the 2007 Eastern Conference Finals against Detroit could be in a sense his "foreshadowing" moment.
Anyone who is a Chicago fan would be completely ridiculous to not want LeBron on their team plain and simple... totally agree with your analysis though. I had been hoping that Antawn was the man who would finally be a Robin for LeBron, but he disappeared last night unfortunately.
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A few things after actually reading some of the comments here:
1. Chicago does make some sense for LBJ with a strong young core
2. Chicago's front office doesn't exactly have a stellar background
3. Noah and Rose are entering their final years under contract... if Rose continues to evolve into a superstar who is to say he'd want to stay in CHI and continue to play Robin to LeBron's Batman? Keep in mind most NBA players are as egotistical as they come, whether or not you want to realize it.
4. The Lakers and Celtics are the ONLY franchises that have any glamour appeal, other than that no one
5. Chicagoans on this board are going to hate my number 4 point
6. Cleveland actually has a decent young core itself (no not as good as Chicago's, but certainly better than the Knicks!)
#3 - Why would Rose leave a perennial title contender in his hometown?
#4 - That's simply wrong.
#5 - Chicagoans won't hate point #4. They'll just think you're a fool...as will most other logical basketball fans.
#6 - Who is Cleveland's decent young core? J.J. Hickson and, um, Danny Green?
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#3 - Why would Rose leave a perennial title contender in his hometown?
#4 - That's simply wrong.
#5 - Chicagoans won't hate point #4. They'll just think you're a fool...as will most other logical basketball fans.
#6 - Who is Cleveland's decent young core? J.J. Hickson and, um, Danny Green?
3. I'm throwing it out that he MAY be egotistical to not wanting to play Robin to leBron's Batman as stated originally.
4. Why is this wrong?
5. Refer to this #4 and why will "logical fans" think I'm a fool? I think most "logical fans" would agree with me that one era of greatness in an entire franchises history doesn't make it glamourous for the rest of eternity... you need multiples to achieve this status in my opinion.
6. Mo Williams, Delonte West, JJ Hickson, Anderson Varejou, Danny Green - will openly admit this isn't the best around and some seem to disappear in the playoffs, but again as I've previously stated I think that there is a learning curve for playoff contention basketball.
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I agree with this. Like I said, if I'm drafting a point guard for the future Rose comes up at 4 to me. I'd take Williams, Rondo, and Paul (too good to pass up despite some injuries) over him. I was just pointing out that as of today Rose was not a top 5 point guard.
And Jennings had an unbelievable year and is only going to get better with maturity, which will lead to better shot selection. In my opinion, with proper work, he has the potential to be a better all-around point guard than Derrick Rose. As of right now, Rose is more proven, but if Jennings can consistently knock down mid-range jump shots, he's going to be lethal. He gets to the paint at will and shot 37% from 3 point range this year. He's quicker than just about anybody in the game and can create for his teammates.
And Jennings had an unbelievable year
look at post all star game stats for rose. He was finally 100%.
and is only going to get better with maturity
As will derick rose.
which will lead to better shot selection.
ditto
but if Jennings can consistently knock down mid-range jump shots, he's going to be lethal.
hmm... who else might be working on his jumper right now?
He gets to the paint at will and shot 37% from 3 point range this year
got to give you that. but total fg% post all star break 52%. Far and away best among top scorers
He's quicker than just about anybody in the game and can create for his teammates.
Just about anybody, but not Derrick rose. Who's not only fast but able to absorb contact and he can jump out of the gym. That's what separates good from great.
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#3 - Why would Rose leave a perennial title contender in his hometown?
#4 - That's simply wrong.
#5 - Chicagoans won't hate point #4. They'll just think you're a fool...as will most other logical basketball fans.
#6 - Who is Cleveland's decent young core? J.J. Hickson and, um, Danny Green?
#3 - $$$
#4 - probably wrong...
#5 - wrong, they'll hateAnd Jennings had an unbelievable year
look at post all star game stats for rose. He was finally 100%.
and is only going to get better with maturity
As will derick rose.
which will lead to better shot selection.
ditto
but if Jennings can consistently knock down mid-range jump shots, he's going to be lethal.
hmm... who else might be working on his jumper right now?
He gets to the paint at will and shot 37% from 3 point range this year
got to give you that. but total fg% post all star break 52%. Far and away best among top scorers
He's quicker than just about anybody in the game and can create for his teammates.
Just about anybody, but not Derrick rose. Who's not only fast but able to absorb contact and he can jump out of the gym. That's what separates good from great.
Jennings is quicker than Rose. bank it.
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A few things after actually reading some of the comments here:
1. Chicago does make some sense for LBJ with a strong young core
2. Chicago's front office doesn't exactly have a stellar background
3. Noah and Rose are entering their final years under contract... if Rose continues to evolve into a superstar who is to say he'd want to stay in CHI and continue to play Robin to LeBron's Batman? Keep in mind most NBA players are as egotistical as they come, whether or not you want to realize it.
4. The Lakers and Celtics are the ONLY franchises that have any glamour appeal, other than that no one
5. Chicagoans on this board are going to hate my number 4 point
6. Cleveland actually has a decent young core itself (no not as good as Chicago's, but certainly better than the Knicks!)
1. Agreed
2. Sadly, also agreed.
3. He's still a restricted FA, they won't let him go. Rose will be around for at least 5 more years, minimum.
4. In the 50+ crowd, this is probably true. If you're in the 40+ crowd, it's possibly true. If you're in the <40 crowd, it's simply wrong. I'm 33, and grew up watching MJ. The Bulls were basketball royalty, and wherever you were, if you watched the NBA in the 1990s (when most of the current NBA stars were growing up) the Bulls WERE the team to watch. The Celtics sucked. The Lakers fell off for quite a few years. Yes, if you go back to the 1980s and before, that is a true statement, but for anyone my age or younger, it's simply false. Thanks to Jordan, the Bulls are as much a glamour franchise for that age group as any other.
5. Don't hate you for it, but as stated above, I disagree with it.
6. But the NBA has shown that you need that one other superstar. As you said, it wasn't Jamison, and there's no one else in Cleveland that fits the bill. LeBron's "they're lucky to have had me for 7 years" statement is about as definitive as it gets, I'm pretty sure he's leaving. I'm not saying 100% it will be Chicago, but it will be somewhere where he thinks there is another guy who can help him get that title. Whether it's the Knicks signing him and Bosh, or the Nets getting the #1 pick in Wall, or the Bulls pairing him with Rose, he will go somewhere with another true superstar level player.
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And just to elaborate on point #4, why do you think LeBron wore 23 for his high school and the first 7 years of his pro career? Why is he changing his number to 6 next year? It's in deference to Michael Jordan. It's because he grew up idolizing Michael Jordan. It's because for anyone who is LeBron's age and follows basketball, the be all and end all of NBA glamor is Michael Jordan, and Jordan is synonymous with the Chicago Bulls.
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The Lakers 16 world titles and the Celtics 17, think the Bulls 6 are kinda cute.
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I'm 23 years old, and unfortunately for those who are saying young people hold Chicago above the rest isn't exactly accurate, though I will agree some do. I'll give you that LBJ clearly idolizes MJ and may want to continue his career where MJ had performed at such a high level, however I do think that the glamour argument is one that is depends on perception and timing because as noted above if you look historically Chicago is definitively not glamorous. However, if you are looking to the era and generation which I am a part of, there is something there for Chicago, though the post-Jordan days have certainly put a damper on those "glamour days" if you ask me.
I should clarify I stated the original Chi is not glamorous in a historical sense and not simply for the LBJ may find it appealing and think it's glamorous argument.
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Jennings is quicker than Rose. bank it.
Rose is a beast and a game changer. Anyone who thinks jennings is on his level is delusional. Players all talk about how tough he is to guard. He's the closest thing to wade right now.
Rose put up 23 ppg in the 2nd half of his sophomore season season. (he wasn't healthy coming into the year.)
If you can say the same about Jennings next year I'll be shocked. Put it on your outlook calendar.
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1. Agreed
2. Sadly, also agreed.
3. He's still a restricted FA, they won't let him go. Rose will be around for at least 5 more years, minimum.
4. In the 50+ crowd, this is probably true. If you're in the 40+ crowd, it's possibly true. If you're in the <40 crowd, it's simply wrong. I'm 33, and grew up watching MJ. The Bulls were basketball royalty, and wherever you were, if you watched the NBA in the 1990s (when most of the current NBA stars were growing up) the Bulls WERE the team to watch. The Celtics sucked. The Lakers fell off for quite a few years. Yes, if you go back to the 1980s and before, that is a true statement, but for anyone my age or younger, it's simply false. Thanks to Jordan, the Bulls are as much a glamour franchise for that age group as any other.
5. Don't hate you for it, but as stated above, I disagree with it.
6. But the NBA has shown that you need that one other superstar. As you said, it wasn't Jamison, and there's no one else in Cleveland that fits the bill. LeBron's "they're lucky to have had me for 7 years" statement is about as definitive as it gets, I'm pretty sure he's leaving. I'm not saying 100% it will be Chicago, but it will be somewhere where he thinks there is another guy who can help him get that title. Whether it's the Knicks signing him and Bosh, or the Nets getting the #1 pick in Wall, or the Bulls pairing him with Rose, he will go somewhere with another true superstar level player.
3. Thanks for pointing it out, didn't realize, but now I'm looking and I'm questioning when exactly this happens. I see him listed in some references and not in other for the 2011 class... anyone know definitively because now I'm questioning myself on this point. Noah is for certain restricted in 2011 though, which yes means you'll retain him provided health.
4. Please see my last post
6. That's a mis-quote. He said that he has spoiled people with his play and that 3 bad games in 7 yrs are being called out. I don't really think that said all that much aside from him thinking people are crazy for all of a sudden questioning his quality of play due to a few bad ones, but I also admit this may just me being a Clevelander, lol.
You do need multiple stars and currently we have a mega-star with solid role players, yet to find the missing piece, but our front office has certainly shown their willingness to make moves and try to win at any cost, which is something to be considered. Having an owner willing to blow 90+ million on a bball season is pretty nice.
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The Lakers 16 world titles and the Celtics 17, think the Bulls 6 are kinda cute.
This is another allure to the Bulls, though. If LeBron comes to Chicago, and if he believes that he can truly exceed what MJ did, it's possible to think that he believes he can win more than Jordan did. And if he played in Chicago for 12 years and won 7 championships, which is not out of the realm of possibility (though admittedly a lofty goal) then he would be able to retire potentially with a good handle on the "greatest ever" argument.
And I'm sorry, but LeBron changing his jersey from 23 to 6 just shows how much regard he has for the Celtics 17 titles. Boston fans all cried foul because he had too much respect for Jordan to keep wearing his number, but didn't care that Bill Russell wore the number 6. To someone like LeBron, Michael's 6 titles in Chicago have more value than the 33 of Boston and Los Angeles combined.
And Golden...I do think Cleveland is still a possibility, and I know my quote wasn't exact, but I really think he's on his way out. I think LeBron feels he has outgrown Cleveland, and the criticism and boos from the Cleveland crowd seem to be getting to him. That being said, if he thinks that Chicago will be the magic answer to escaping criticism, he has another thing coming...
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I'm 23 years old, and unfortunately for those who are saying young people hold Chicago above the rest isn't exactly accurate, though I will agree some do. I'll give you that LBJ clearly idolizes MJ and may want to continue his career where MJ had performed at such a high level, however I do think that the glamour argument is one that is depends on perception and timing because as noted above if you look historically Chicago is definitively not glamorous. However, if you are looking to the era and generation which I am a part of, there is something there for Chicago, though the post-Jordan days have certainly put a damper on those "glamour days" if you ask me.
I should clarify I stated the original Chi is not glamorous in a historical sense and not simply for the LBJ may find it appealing and think it's glamorous argument.
He sure as hell thinks it's glamorous.
He was fan of Jordan growing up, he had to be because everyone was.
I don't think people from the midwest realize how many Chicago fans there are nation wide. Not specifically bulls but people from there. Everywhere I go you on the west coast. Walk into a bar with 50 people in it, there is a group from chicago.
To say the 3rd market doesn't have draw over Boston (and to put Boston over NY) is ludicrous.
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From espn.com's Daily Dime... Money paragraphs.
James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh have already acknowledged they plan to speak together and go over the options they will be presented with in the biggest free-agency period in NBA history, and James' acknowledgement that he has a "game plan" is an indication that things may be farther along than most people realize.
The latest talk making the rounds regarding Chicago is that the Bulls could be the best fit because they already have a top-tier point guard in Derrick Rose and an athletic big man in Joakim Noah, plus they have a coaching vacancy that could conceivably end up being filled by John Calipari, who is extremely close to both Rose and James confidante William Wesley. The Bulls did make a head-scratcher of a trade when they gave away John Salmons and their No. 1 pick to Milwaukee at the trading deadline, but the deal gave them the flexibility to have max money available this summer. Yes, James would have to play the next several years in the shadow of Michael Jordan, but the generation that is as old or younger than James (25) has more vivid memories of Jordan as a Wizard, or as owner of the Bobcats, than they do of him winning six titles for the Bulls.
This is going to get interesting.
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Some of you guys astound me. Boston is a glamor franchise in marketing purposes/television ratings only. As far as players are concerned, the ranks are probably: LA, NYK, then maybe Chicago, Orlando or Phoenix Boston is far down the list. It's is a known fact that African Americans Celtics have had problems with that city for decades. It is not a desired destination for players.
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Rose is a beast and a game changer. Anyone who thinks jennings is on his level is delusional. Players all talk about how tough he is to guard. He's the closest thing to wade right now.
Rose put up 23 ppg in the 2nd half of his sophomore season season. (he wasn't healthy coming into the year.)
If you can say the same about Jennings next year I'll be shocked. Put it on your outlook calendar.
That is precisely the point I made it my previous post on this subject. PPGs is not the only stat I care about for my point guard. I currently put Rose above Jennings as an all-around PG. Rose will likely be the better scoring PG between the two. But, I believe that Jennings has the ability to be the better all-around PG.
Having said that, if I am building a roster tomorrow I take Rose over Jennings - Rose, at this point, is a known commodity.
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He sure as hell thinks it's glamorous.
He was fan of Jordan growing up, he had to be because everyone was.
I don't think people from the midwest realize how many Chicago fans there are nation wide. Not specifically bulls but people from there. Everywhere I go you on the west coast. Walk into a bar with 50 people in it, there is a group from chicago.
To say the 3rd market doesn't have draw over Boston (and to put Boston over NY) is ludicrous.
I don't quite follow this... are you just saying that Chicago is highly populated? lol
Yeah, I said I do think an argument is there for LBJ seeing something about Chicago given when we were growing up, but don't think that he's simply going to go because of that, he's going to go so he can get his money and win... Cleveland is certainly still int hat conversation as well as is Chicago.
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I don't quite follow this... are you just saying that Chicago is highly populated? lol
No, he's saying that Chicago sports fans have a presence across the country. If you go to a sports bar in Miami, there will be Chicago fans there. You'll find the same in Boston, Los Angeles, New York, Houston, or pretty much any other major city. Chicago has fans everywhere, not just in the Midwest.
Look at the top teams in terms of total merchandise sales:
1) Lakers
2) Celtics
3) Cavs
4) Bulls
5) Knicks
And the top individual jerseys:
1) Kobe Bryant
2) LeBron James
3) Kevin Garnett
4) Derrick Rose
5) Dwight Howard
6) Dwyane Wade
7) Chris Paul
8) Paul Pierce
9) Kevin Durant
10) Carmelo Anthony
The Bulls sell despite not having won a title in a decade. Rose outsells Wade, Paul, and Howard despite not having the career accolades they have. And if LeBron comes to Chicago, I think there's a very good chance that the Bulls would top overall team sales and he would top individual jersey sales.
The Bulls are a glamor franchise, and LeBron would only add to the luster.
Source: http://www.nba.com/2010/news/04/28/jersey.sales/index.html
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I'm 23 years old, and unfortunately for those who are saying young people hold Chicago above the rest isn't exactly accurate, though I will agree some do. I'll give you that LBJ clearly idolizes MJ and may want to continue his career where MJ had performed at such a high level, however I do think that the glamour argument is one that is depends on perception and timing because as noted above if you look historically Chicago is definitively not glamorous. However, if you are looking to the era and generation which I am a part of, there is something there for Chicago, though the post-Jordan days have certainly put a damper on those "glamour days" if you ask me.
I should clarify I stated the original Chi is not glamorous in a historical sense and not simply for the LBJ may find it appealing and think it's glamorous argument.
Before 2008, the last Celtics title was something like 1985. Between that, they by and large were mediocre if not simply sucked. They have a history and tradition, but I would not call them a "glamour" franchise.
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No, he's saying that Chicago sports fans have a presence across the country. If you go to a sports bar in Miami, there will be Chicago fans there. You'll find the same in Boston, Los Angeles, New York, Houston, or pretty much any other major city. Chicago has fans everywhere, not just in the Midwest.
Look at the top teams in terms of total merchandise sales:
1) Lakers
2) Celtics
3) Cavs
4) Bulls
5) Knicks
And the top individual jerseys:
1) Kobe Bryant
2) LeBron James
3) Kevin Garnett
4) Derrick Rose
5) Dwight Howard
6) Dwyane Wade
7) Chris Paul
8) Paul Pierce
9) Kevin Durant
10) Carmelo Anthony
The Bulls sell despite not having won a title in a decade. Rose outsells Wade, Paul, and Howard despite not having the career accolades they have. And if LeBron comes to Chicago, I think there's a very good chance that the Bulls would top overall team sales and he would top individual jersey sales.
The Bulls are a glamor franchise, and LeBron would only add to the luster.
Source: http://www.nba.com/2010/news/04/28/jersey.sales/index.html
I'm not quite seeing the follow through of there being fans to the Chicago Bulls organization being a glamorous franchise in sports?
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Glamorous cities for NBA players, in no specific order:
~LA (Hollywood)
~Atlanta (strip clubs and hip hop)
~Miami (weather and no state taxes)
~Dallas (ownership)
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Before 2008, the last Celtics title was something like 1985. Between that, they by and large were mediocre if not simply sucked. They have a history and tradition, but I would not call them a "glamour" franchise.
Look the glamor argument is all perception depending on the person evaluating it. I'm all about history and 17 titles or whatever speaks VOLUMES to me even though I'm only 23... others my age only care about what's more current and that's Chicago. Some are saying if there's a lot of fans then that makes it a glamorous organization... it's all personal feelings and there's no way we are all gonna agree on it. I will just say I don't think Chicago as 'glamorous'
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As someone who used to work in the Bulls front office and still knows people there, I've found this thread to be funny.
This is just a quick count of things I've heard from people both in marketing and basketball operations with the Bulls. Believe whatever you want to take away from this.
-No one believes Bosh is coming to Chicago. All signs so far are pointing towards Miami, especially if Wade re-signs
-Most think Wade will be the first to make a free agency decision. Nearly everyone thinks he's re-signing with the Heat, with a chance he might consider the Knicks. Almost no chatter of him coming to Chicago.
-Bulls insiders say they will not overpay for Joe Johnson. Only way they would is if LBJ wants him. Joe Johnson is most likely to be last of the "big name" players to sign.
-LBJ is more than interested in Chicago. Most GM's think it's his preferred destination, and there has been a lot of chatter in league circles about it. Talk is LeBron is tired of having maxed things out in Cleveland, wants a combo of title contender roster, $$$ outside league contract potential, nightlife, and wants to be semi-close to Akron.
Take it for what it's worth, but that's what I'm hearing.
Oh, and NBA players LOVE Chicago. All this stuff from people saying Chicago isn't a glamorous city for NBA players is utter nonsense. NBA players have consistenly said their favorite cities on roadtrips are Portland, Chicago, Miami, New York, Atlanta.
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As someone who used to work in the Bulls front office and still knows people there, I've found this thread to be funny.
This is just a quick count of things I've heard from people both in marketing and basketball operations with the Bulls. Believe whatever you want to take away from this.
-No one believes Bosh is coming to Chicago. All signs so far are pointing towards Miami, especially if Wade re-signs
-Most think Wade will be the first to make a free agency decision. Nearly everyone thinks he's re-signing with the Heat, with a chance he might consider the Knicks. Almost no chatter of him coming to Chicago.
-Bulls insiders say they will not overpay for Joe Johnson. Only way they would is if LBJ wants him. Joe Johnson is most likely to be last of the "big name" players to sign.
-LBJ is more than interested in Chicago. Most GM's think it's his preferred destination, and there has been a lot of chatter in league circles about it. Talk is LeBron is tired of having maxed things out in Cleveland, wants a combo of title contender roster, $$$ outside league contract potential, nightlife, and wants to be semi-close to Akron.
Take it for what it's worth, but that's what I'm hearing.
Oh, and NBA players LOVE Chicago. All this stuff from people saying Chicago isn't a glamorous city for NBA players is utter nonsense. NBA players have consistenly said their favorite cities on roadtrips are Portland, Chicago, Miami, New York, Atlanta.
I think you may be mis-interpretting the conversation here. We are discussing the glamor appeal of the Chicago Bulls organization in the NBA, NOT the city of Chicago. The city of Chicago is pretty awesome, no one can really debate that one.
Interesting stuff though. Take everything with a grain of salt on these topics as the only people who truly know are the players themselves, but always fun to hear speculations or general consensus out there around the league. I think Wade resigns as well, pretty quickly and I think either Bosh or Amar'e are gonna be joining him in Miami.
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Rawdog knows everything. No use in being reasonable with him.
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Rawdog knows everything. No use in being reasonable with him.
uh, pot meet kettle?
additionally, Portland is a hot spot for NBA players?
WHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuu?
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Please Stay LeBron video, featuring numerous Cleveland celebrities.
http://www.break.com/index/we-are-lebron-video.html
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Glamorous cities for NBA players, in no specific order:
~LA (Hollywood)
~Atlanta (strip clubs and hip hop)
~Miami (weather and no state taxes)
~Dallas (ownership)
I agree but I'd have to add the Knicks. NBA players seem to love NYC.
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http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100514&sportCat=nba
try and temper your boners, Bulls fans.
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http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100514&sportCat=nba
try and temper your boners, Bulls fans.
I came to the realization that LeBron has to realize that if he comes to Chicago, the expectation every year will be to win the title. Anything less is failure.
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Please Stay LeBron video, featuring numerous Cleveland celebrities.
http://www.break.com/index/we-are-lebron-video.html
Did I say I was from Cleveland... wow that's embarrassing, lol
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I came to the realization that LeBron has to realize that if he comes to Chicago, the expectation every year will be to win the title. Anything less is failure.
Anything less than that now is a failure too
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uh, pot meet kettle?
additionally, Portland is a hot spot for NBA players?
WHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuu?
Little company called "Nike" is right near Portland. Players also don't typically get bothered when they got out in Portland either. NBA players LOVE going to Portland.
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Little company called "Nike" is right near Portland. Players also don't typically get bothered when they got out in Portland either. NBA players LOVE going to Portland.
so, it is sort of the 'escape from it all' city?
Nike being near Portland means what, exactly?
These are serious questions... I'm am totally surprised here.
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so, it is sort of the 'escape from it all' city?
Nike being near Portland means what, exactly?
These are serious questions... I'm am totally surprised here.
I'm totally surprised too. I can see it as cool for Nike sponsored stars to be able to stop by headquarters, etc and play around, but beyond that... Portland? Really?! Never ever ever heard or would've thought of that in a million frappin years
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I know the Bulls do it, and most other teams do to, but Portland (especially for Eastern Conference teams who only go once a year) is typically a "team gathering" city. For example, every year the Bulls go to Portland, the front office sets up a trip to Beaverton, and most guys go to the Nike campus. Rookies in particular love going, as they either get swag or some deeply discounted deals (not everything is free to these guys). I know a story of one rookie in the early 2000's saving his per diem from the Bulls Circus West Coast trip, and spending it all at Nike.
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I know the Bulls do it, and most other teams do to, but Portland (especially for Eastern Conference teams who only go once a year) is typically a "team gathering" city. For example, every year the Bulls go to Portland, the front office sets up a trip to Beaverton, and most guys go to the Nike campus. Rookies in particular love going, as they either get swag or some deeply discounted deals (not everything is free to these guys). I know a story of one rookie in the early 2000's saving his per diem from the Bulls Circus West Coast trip, and spending it all at Nike.
Yeah, I can see it as like a cool place to visit once a year and do that and that being something to look forward to, but I don't think that means that Portland is a step above the rest when it comes to signing somewhere in free agency or something, just my thought though.
I can only imagine what that per diem was set at!!! Had to have been one hell of a shopping trip!
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I think you may be mis-interpretting the conversation here. We are discussing the glamor appeal of the Chicago Bulls organization in the NBA, NOT the city of Chicago. The city of Chicago is pretty awesome, no one can really debate that one.
I think the location of a franchise is part of the 'glamor'. Why do you think the nicks are? The player does have to live there. You think Bosh would be gun ho about Miami if it was located in Minnesota?
Lebron was the one who suggested that every team retire MJ's number. So that could mean he really is afraid of the 'shadow' of MJ, but come on. You are in the shadow of someone for every team mentioned except the nicks and the clippers.
On a related note, mlb players just voted that chicago has the best groupies.
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I think the location of a franchise is part of the 'glamor'. Why do you think the nicks are? The player does have to live there. You think Bosh would be gun ho about Miami if it was located in Minnesota?
Lebron was the one who suggested that every team retire MJ's number. So that could mean he really is afraid of the 'shadow' of MJ, but come on. You are in the shadow of someone for every team mentioned except the nicks and the clippers.
On a related note, mlb players just voted that chicago has the best groupies.
By coming out early on about changing his number to 6 next year, LBJ has opened himself up to now play for the Bulls and not have to say to anyone that he couldn't go to the Bulls because he can't wear his normal 23.....just my story and I'm sticking to it...
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I think the location of a franchise is part of the 'glamor'. Why do you think the nicks are? The player does have to live there. You think Bosh would be gun ho about Miami if it was located in Minnesota?
Lebron was the one who suggested that every team retire MJ's number. So that could mean he really is afraid of the 'shadow' of MJ, but come on. You are in the shadow of someone for every team mentioned except the nicks and the clippers.
On a related note, mlb players just voted that chicago has the best groupies.
I am making the argument that from a basketball perspective only that LA and Boston are the only franchises that have any glamour and this is due to their historical relevance and dominance in the league. The Knicks are borderline, but still fall short of glamor.
Yes, the cities, weather, etc are all factors in deciding where to play and such, but I was simply speaking to the franchise itself from a basketball stand point, not it's surroundings and "other" items that can help a franchise in landing free agents, etc.
Best groupies probably has some clout these days too, lol
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Ok, perhaps its not delusional to say that Lebron may consider Chicago. However, it is delusional to say it is the best destination, and that their roster is SOOO much better than others rosters who are in the running.
In my opinion NY Knicks is the #1 option. Lebron has made it very public that he wants to be a global icon, and there is no where better to do this than NY, and no where else (not even chicago/LA) really comes close. The opportunity to play at madison square garden in manhattan will be a major draw to Lebron. The only thing is there is NO ONE around him. However, if they can sign Bosh and Lebron they would be an amazing pair in the D'antonio system. I think Lebron would love the chance to from the the slow boring cleveland system to the fast break run and gun d'antonio system. He has said he wants to be the first billionaire athlete, and NYC is the best place for a person who wants to be greater than the sport. Doesn't make the most sense from a basketball standpoint, but I really thing lebron cares about more than just winning basketball games.
New Jersey Nets. Jersey has an all-star PG in devin harris already, the potential for another in wall, chris douglas-roberts, courtney lee, brook lopez, yi jianlian, and terrence williams. Thats a pretty decent nucleus. You also have to include the Jay-Z factor. And the fact that they are moving to a brand new, state of the art stadium in brooklyn, so he will get his NY exposure. But you have to wonder if he would want to spend 2 years in Jersey before they make the move.
LA Clippers. LA is the second largest market and the clips have a great core of young players already in eric gordon, blake griffen, chris kaman, deandre jordan and travis outlaw. he might see it as a challenge to compete with kobe for popularity in LA.
Heat. The allure of South Beach + Dwade is huge, but it will be hard for them to sign both. And they apparently loved playing with each other for team USA.
Orlando Magic? If they can deal lewis they should have enough cap to sign him. Plus no income tax in florida. Imagine lebron and dwight howard. This is his destination is championships are truly the most important to him.
And the craziest option: Lebron in Europe. Its rumored that the billionaire brothers who own the team that Josh Childress plays for is planning on offering Lebron 50-80 Mil/year in the uncapped Euro League. What better way to increase his international exposure? Go play in Europe for 2 years, make 100+ mil, and come back just in time for the Nets grand move to Brooklyn.
My cousin works for those billionaires, the Aggelopoulos brothers, and told me this morning that the rumors around the office is that this is a distinct possibility and that they are considering making an offer...
Little background:
The team is Olympiakos, and last weekend they lost to Barcelona (Ricky Rubio and Juan Carlos Navarro) in the Eurobasket Final (best two teams in Europe). However, for the past 5 or so seasons Olympiakos has been stuck in 2nd in the league behind rival Panathinaikos (Dominique Wilkens once played there) who has also won the Euroleague a few times in the past.
In other words, Olympiakos still has some goals to achieve. The teams head coach is a guy named Panayiotis Giannakis- best Greek basketball player ever and a great mind, very famous in the country. The team signed Josh Childress to a 3 year deal worth $20 million, and another former NBA player on the team is Linas Kleiza of the Nuggets (Kleiza and Childress are the two leading scorers)
Interestingly, the team is nicknamed "The Chicago Bulls of Europe"- mainly due to colors and their rise as powers of Europe as the Bulls were dominating the Association
All that said, my cousin told me that they are debating whether Lebron would even entertain an offer, and whether or not it would be worth it in the long shot event that he were to accept. They can offer much more than he could get in the NBA, even double in the $40-60 million range if they so choose. They are passionate about the sport, their team, and their fame, and would make a move like this even if the investment didn't pay off as it would be a once in a lifetime opportunity (what more could a fan want?)
Don't be surprised to hear about an offer at some point. In the end, even if Lebron were to scoff at this (heck even Allen Iverson turned down a pretty solid offer, huge mistake on his part) it puts the Aggelopoulos brothers right back in the headlines, where they like to be. Even more than being rich and famous, they would like to be Champions, and might be willing to do it at any cost
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Rawdog knows everything. No use in being reasonable with him.
I'm sorry i was born in chicago.
I'm sorry I'm a fan of the city and the sports.
I'm sorry I don't think the fans suck.
I'm sorry that something inside me makes me respond when you attack our teams, players and fans.
I'm sorry that I can't bad mouth every part of the country and blame it on THEIR superiority complexes.
And I'm sorry that your narrow view and prejudices allow me to own you regularly.
to whoever said that BJ had the ability to be a better all around pg in the future. You have a right to that opinion. Who knows?
But, Rose was counted on to be a scoring threat and he still has a very good hands rating according to 82games.com. You put lebron on that team and his already extremely efficient shot selection will improve as the burden to be a number one option(and double teams) is lifted. Assits will obviously go up, to's will go down. I think most of us (not wadeswrold) would agree his defencive and rebounding ceilings are also much higher than BJ.
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Lebron isn't going to Europe. It's not even worth entertaining the thought.
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to whoever said that BJ had the ability to be a better all around pg in the future. You have a right to that opinion. Who knows?
This Bucks fan would trade Jennings for Rose in an instant.
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Lebron isn't going to Europe. It's not even worth entertaining the thought.
You must be his agent or brother? Congrats then, you are due for a big payday yourself
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I think you may be mis-interpretting the conversation here. We are discussing the glamor appeal of the Chicago Bulls organization in the NBA, NOT the city of Chicago. The city of Chicago is pretty awesome, no one can really debate that one.
Interesting stuff though. Take everything with a grain of salt on these topics as the only people who truly know are the players themselves, but always fun to hear speculations or general consensus out there around the league. I think Wade resigns as well, pretty quickly and I think either Bosh or Amar'e are gonna be joining him in Miami.
Okay, this is my last attempt, since it doesn't seem to be connecting for some people. To a 25 year old basketball player, Michael Jordan is God. His church is the United Center, and Bulls fans are his congregation. So is taking the mantle of God glamorous? I think the answer is DUH!
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Okay, this is my last attempt, since it doesn't seem to be connecting for some people. To a 25 year old basketball player, Michael Jordan is God. His church is the United Center, and Bulls fans are his congregation. So is taking the mantle of God glamorous? I think the answer is DUH!
As previously stated: Look the glamor argument is all perception depending on the person evaluating it. I'm all about history and 17 titles or whatever speaks VOLUMES to me even though I'm only 23 (and a basketball player myself... sadly not well enough, lol)... others my age MAY only care about what's more current and that's Chicago. Some are saying if there's a lot of fans then that makes it a glamorous organization... it's all personal feelings and there's no way we are all gonna agree on it. I will just say I don't think of Chicago as a 'glamorous' organization.
Essentially, yes there's an appeal there, but clearly we are judging glamor totally different. You are looking at it as "is there a reason to go play for that team" and I am looking at it as "historically what has the team done," which is an area that the Bulls lack historically being as they only had the one run.
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But the timing of that run and the recognizable nature of their biggest star is paramount here. In the past 20 years, the Bulls are undoubtedly the most prestigious franchise in the NBA, with only the Lakers even close. The bulk of Boston's success comes from over 25 years ago. I'm terms of recent glamor, Chicago is damn near the definition.
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As previously stated: Look the glamor argument is all perception depending on the person evaluating it. I'm all about history and 17 titles or whatever speaks VOLUMES to me even though I'm only 23 (and a basketball player myself... sadly not well enough, lol)... others my age MAY only care about what's more current and that's Chicago. Some are saying if there's a lot of fans then that makes it a glamorous organization... it's all personal feelings and there's no way we are all gonna agree on it. I will just say I don't think of Chicago as a 'glamorous' organization.
Essentially, yes there's an appeal there, but clearly we are judging glamor totally different. You are looking at it as "is there a reason to go play for that team" and I am looking at it as "historically what has the team done," which is an area that the Bulls lack historically being as they only had the one run.
The Bulls have the 3rd most NBA championships behind only the Lakers/Celtics.
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But the timing of that run and the recognizable nature of their biggest star is paramount here. In the past 20 years, the Bulls are undoubtedly the most prestigious franchise in the NBA, with only the Lakers even close. The bulk of Boston's success comes from over 25 years ago. I'm terms of recent glamor, Chicago is damn near the definition.
Right, that's why I said I was looking at it from a historical context. I'm all about the entirety of the NBA and not just the "what have you done for me lately" mentality when it comes to prestiege and glamor.
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The Bulls have the 3rd most NBA championships behind only the Lakers/Celtics.
WELLLLLLL short of those two and hence why I believe what I am saying.
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Right, that's why I said I was looking at it from a historical context. I'm all about the entirety of the NBA and not just the "what have you done for me lately" mentality when it comes to prestiege and glamor.
I think you're using the wrong term then. History and tradition don't make a team "glamorous." I mean, I wouldn't call the Packers a "glamorous" football team. I wouldn't call the Celtics a "glamorous" basketball team.
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The Bulls history consists of an unbelievable 9 year run with Phil Jackson as coach. Led by Jordan they had 545 wins, 193 losses, with 6 division titles and 6 NBA titles.
In the other 35 years they're about 300 games under .500 with 1 division title.
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I'm sorry i was born in chicago.
I'm sorry I'm a fan of the city and the sports.
I'm sorry I don't think the fans suck.
I'm sorry that something inside me makes me respond when you attack our teams, players and fans.
I'm sorry that I can't bad mouth every part of the country and blame it on THEIR superiority complexes.
And I'm sorry that your narrow view and prejudices allow me to own you regularly.
to whoever said that BJ had the ability to be a better all around pg in the future. You have a right to that opinion. Who knows?
But, Rose was counted on to be a scoring threat and he still has a very good hands rating according to 82games.com. You put lebron on that team and his already extremely efficient shot selection will improve as the burden to be a number one option(and double teams) is lifted. Assits will obviously go up, to's will go down. I think most of us (not wadeswrold) would agree his defencive and rebounding ceilings are also much higher than BJ.
When you look at the stats that Rose and Jennings put up during their rookie years they are pretty similar, slightly in favor of Rose.
Rose: 16.8 ppg, 6.3 apg, 3.9 rpg, 2.5 turnovers/gm, 0.8 steals/gm
Jennings: 15.5 ppg, 5.7 apg, 3.4 rpg, 2.4 turnovers/gm, 1.28 steals/gm (by the way, Rose had just 0.7 steals per game this season)
Like I said, these numbers favor Rose, but only slightly. What really stands out to me is that Rose shot 22% from 3 point range (raised it to 27% this year), but shot 47% (raised it to 49% this year) overall, while Jennings shot 37.4% 3 point, while just 37.1% overall. This tells me that Jennings's shot selection is very questionable, while Rose's is about as good as they come (huge advantage for Rose). Personally I believe Rose will always be slightly below a 50% shooter from the field, WHICH IS VERY GOOD, but I do not believe he will become a much better 3 point shooter than what he is. I COULD BE WRONG ABOUT THAT. But those numbers tell me that Jennings has a better shot, but he just does not know when to take those shots and which shots are good shots at this point. It is yet to be seen whether his shot selection will improve, but as a 19 (!) year old with just one year of NBA experience behind him I would say it is more likely that it will. I say he will improve his shooting while Rose probably will remain around where he is because a guard shooting nearly 50% is very good, and you really don't see many guards shooting above that. I think Jennings WILL improve his shooting percentage with experience because 37% shooting is poor, and while I don't expect him to ever be a 48% shooter, I think he can raise it to between 42-45%, which will be a significant increase, while still shooting the 3 pointer better than Rose will. And just to further show this, Jennings made 145 3 pointers this season, while Rose has made 32 in his 2 seasons combined.
I can agree with you that Rose has a higher rebounding ceiling. I don't agree with you that he has a higher defensive ceiling. As I pointed out, Jennings averages over half of a steal per game more than Rose does. I'm not saying Rose is a bad defender, but I think you are completely underestimating Jennings's defense, something that can probably be attributed to Scott Skiles. I also think you are completely underestimating Jennings's quickness. The guy has to be one of the top 5 quickest players in the NBA.
Both players are able to break down a defense off the dribble and create open shots for their teammates.
I don't think it's that ridiculous to think that at this point in his career Jennings isn't far behind where Rose was a year ago, with the potential to be just as good or better.
But just keep talking matter-of-factly about the future. I'm going to go ahead and guess that your response will be something along the lines of:
Let's not be impressed, Rose was an All-Star in his second year. He was hurt for the first half of the season, so forget those numbers. Rose is a better defender and quicker.
If that is correct, don't bother responding.
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This all started when i put rose in the top 5 pg's. You said that bj is above him. SInce then no one has agreed with that, apperently not even you. You back peddled and said that you meant he'll be better in the future but that if you were building a team you'd draft rose above him. I no longer have any idea what you are trying to convince me of.
I think bj will have a good career. He'll make 3-6 all star teams. Rose will make 6-8.
And yes i'll keep talking matter of factly about the future.
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A non-chicago writer shares my opinion about lebron winning titles in chicago:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100514&sportCat=nba
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This all started when i put rose in the top 5 pg's. You said that bj is above him. SInce then no one has agreed with that, apperently not even you. You back peddled and said that you meant he'll be better in the future but that if you were building a team you'd draft rose above him. I no longer have any idea what you are trying to convince me of.
I think bj will have a good career. He'll make 3-6 all star teams. Rose will make 6-8.
And yes i'll keep talking matter of factly about the future.
I'm not trying to convince you of anything because we all know that won't happen. I'm just saying that I don't think it's all that unreasonable to say that Jennings is not very far behind where Rose was after Rose's first year in the NBA like some people seem to think it is. I also think Jennings has more room for improvement than Rose does (Rose already has the body fit for the NBA, while Jennings is really slim; Rose already has a great shot selection, while Jennings doesn't). IF Jennings can improve on those things (which I think he can considering he just turned 20 years old), I think he has the potential to be the better all-around point guard. Right now I would take Rose in a draft of point guards because he has proven that he has the shot selection and consistency that Jennings does not yet have.
I also think you make blind statements with no proof of them at all (see your statement about Rose's defensive potential vs. Jennings's...I can all but guarantee that you had no clue Jennings averaged over 1.2 steals to Rose's 0.7). You make these statements like they are fact when you evidently do not have much knowledge of Jennings's game and numbers. My guess is that you only watched Jennings play at most 4 times during the regular season (when they played the Bulls) and MAYBE 4 or 5 of the Bucks' playoff games.
Another of your blind, matter-of-fact statements that you make is that Evans isn't even in the same league as Rose. You say you won't even address him because of this. Please do. I will as well. Here are their numbers this year (Rose already has the HUGE advantage of having a year in the NBA behind him as well).
Rose: 20.8 ppg, 6 apg, 3.8 rpg, 2.78 turnovers/gm, 49% fg, 27% 3 point, 77% ft, 0.7 steals/gm
Evans: 20.1 ppg, 5.8 apg, 5.3 rpg, 3 turnovers/gm, 46% fg, 26% 3 point, 75% ft, 1.51 steals/gm
That's really not in the same league? Don't give me the "Rose is the focal point of the defense every night and gets double teamed all over." So does Evans. At 6'6", 220 lbs, compared to Rose's 6'3" 190 lbs, Evans has a higher ceiling in both defense (over double the steals/gm) and rebounds. They are pretty equal in their playmaking ability and their scoring ability. I'm not sure I understand how Evans isn't even in Rose's league, so please address this.
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A non-chicago writer shares my opinion about lebron winning titles in chicago:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100514&sportCat=nba
That article loses a lot of credence with me with the "Lebron lacks killer instinct" theme. They said the same thing about Jordan when he lost to the Pistons for two years running...then they won and all that talk was forgotten.
Without a supporting cast, he can't do anything.
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I know it's the off-season....but convince me to keep this in the Al...wade's only been mentioned in a quote on this page 8-)
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Here's two likely scenarios:
Lebron to Miami to team up with D Wade OR.....
Lebron to Lakers for Odom,Bynum and 1st round draft pick!
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Here's two unlikely scenarios:
Lebron to Miami to team up with D Wade OR.....
Lebron to Lakers for Odom,Bynum and 1st round draft pick!
Fixed.
And to Rocky: Dwyane Wade is the best free agent in this class, and I can only hope the Bulls will land him ;)
In all honesty if Wade stays in Miami, or heads to NY or whatever, and Lebron ends up with the Bulls, it might be a tough future rooting wise as a Bulls fan.... If Lebron is winning championships that would mean that he is beating out DWade, and the last thing I would want to see is Wade having the luck of guys like Patrick Ewing
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By coming out early on about changing his number to 6 next year, LBJ has opened himself up to now play for the Bulls and not have to say to anyone that he couldn't go to the Bulls because he can't wear his normal 23.....just my story and I'm sticking to it...
The weird thing is that if he's changing teams, he doesn't have to announce that. It's only for jersey sales. If he changes teams, he can pick whatever number he wants.
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The bulk of Boston's success comes from over 25 years ago.
Bill Russell would like to argue that it's even further back.
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Where LeBron goes does not really matter to me, but why have many ruled out Cleveland?
The max he can get from any other NBA team is 96 million for 5 years. Cleveland can give him 126 million for 6 years or 30 million for one additional year. The Cleveland deal is the best. And will he make that much more in endorsements in another market? After all, he already makes quite a bit in endorsements already in Cleveland.
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I've heard more and more the past couple days about Wade, Bosh, and James planning to get together and possibly find a way for all three of them to play in the same city. One thing no one seems to be thinking of is that the NBA has a soft cap. The Bulls haven't previously gone over the luxury tax because Reinsdorf doesn't want to pay the tax if he doesn't feel he has a chance to win the title.
My guess is that if they go for James, it will be in a sign and trade deal, likely sending Luol Deng the other way, possibly Hinrich as well to keep the contracts in line. That would mean they still have enough money for one max player and one mid-level without going over the cap. But if they wanted to break over the cap, that would allow for all three.
The problem with this theory is that the Bulls bringing in all of the big three free agents would kill their ability to simply put together a roster. It'd give them a starting five of Rose, Wade, James, Bosh, and Noah, but their bench would only have Taj Gibson and James Johnson. Add in two rookies in the draft (dream scenario for me is Gordon Hayward and Jordan Crawford). After that, maybe a rookie free agent joins the bench (another dream, Lazar). That leaves five roster spots still to be filled. Joe Alexander may stay as a minimum player, possibly either Rob Kurz or Chris Richard, but that's a bench with pretty much no experience or quality, and unless Reinsdorf really doesn't care about the tax, I can't see any way all three would fit, though considering it is a soft cap, two could be a very realistic possibility.
That could put Wade in Chicago as well. Him and my dream of Lazar would be nice to have them close to home for recruiting purposes.
And before everyone blasts me, the dream scenario could also play out in Miami, New York, or New Jersey.
Oh, and willie, I think with Cleveland it's all about the title. They haven't been able to win one and rather than getting closer, seem to be getting further away. My guess is he'll sign elsewhere, but he'll only sign a three year deal. If he joins Chicago (or New York, or Miami, or the Clippers) for three years, he is then eligible for a Larry Bird rule contract. But if Cleveland can find a way to bring in another heavy-hitter free agent, there's every chance he could stay. But it won't be for money. He's got more money than he knows what to do with already, and an extra million a year for him would be the equivalent of one of us getting a ten-cent raise. At the end of the year, the extra couple hundred bucks might be nice, but you won't notice it on a weekly basis.
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Rose, Deng, Noah, Hinrich and Gibson amount for $29 million per year.
With the anticipated cap to be around $55 that gives them about $26 million to sign free agents. Plenty of room for one elite. But would someone like Wade sign for less than the max?
Shaq is the only free agent to walk away from money on the table.
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I've heard more and more the past couple days about Wade, Bosh, and James planning to get together and possibly find a way for all three of them to play in the same city. One thing no one seems to be thinking of is that the NBA has a soft cap. The Bulls haven't previously gone over the luxury tax because Reinsdorf doesn't want to pay the tax if he doesn't feel he has a chance to win the title.
My guess is that if they go for James, it will be in a sign and trade deal, likely sending Luol Deng the other way, possibly Hinrich as well to keep the contracts in line. That would mean they still have enough money for one max player and one mid-level without going over the cap. But if they wanted to break over the cap, that would allow for all three.
The problem with this theory is that the Bulls bringing in all of the big three free agents would kill their ability to simply put together a roster. It'd give them a starting five of Rose, Wade, James, Bosh, and Noah, but their bench would only have Taj Gibson and James Johnson. Add in two rookies in the draft (dream scenario for me is Gordon Hayward and Jordan Crawford). After that, maybe a rookie free agent joins the bench (another dream, Lazar). That leaves five roster spots still to be filled. Joe Alexander may stay as a minimum player, possibly either Rob Kurz or Chris Richard, but that's a bench with pretty much no experience or quality, and unless Reinsdorf really doesn't care about the tax, I can't see any way all three would fit, though considering it is a soft cap, two could be a very realistic possibility.
That could put Wade in Chicago as well. Him and my dream of Lazar would be nice to have them close to home for recruiting purposes.
And before everyone blasts me, the dream scenario could also play out in Miami, New York, or New Jersey.
Oh, and willie, I think with Cleveland it's all about the title. They haven't been able to win one and rather than getting closer, seem to be getting further away. My guess is he'll sign elsewhere, but he'll only sign a three year deal. If he joins Chicago (or New York, or Miami, or the Clippers) for three years, he is then eligible for a Larry Bird rule contract. But if Cleveland can find a way to bring in another heavy-hitter free agent, there's every chance he could stay. But it won't be for money. He's got more money than he knows what to do with already, and an extra million a year for him would be the equivalent of one of us getting a ten-cent raise. At the end of the year, the extra couple hundred bucks might be nice, but you won't notice it on a weekly basis.
If you are hearing the rumors that Wade, Bosh and James may all sign for one time then you must be hearing that the only real team associated with that is Miami. All they would really have to do is trade Beasley and with all the money coming off they actually can move in to that elusive three max cap territory. No other team is in a better position to go after 2 or 3 max cap players.
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Where LeBron goes does not really matter to me, but why have many ruled out Cleveland?
The max he can get from any other NBA team is 96 million for 5 years. Cleveland can give him 126 million for 6 years or 30 million for one additional year. The Cleveland deal is the best. And will he make that much more in endorsements in another market? After all, he already makes quite a bit in endorsements already in Cleveland.
To counter your point, I'm pretty sure Nike has $30 million laying around.
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To counter your point, I'm pretty sure Nike has $30 million laying around.
Which Nike will give him either way.
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Which Nike will give him either way.
Nike may prefer him in a bigger market. He is a huge icon as is, but they want to make him global ala MJ. As ridiculous as it sounds, dont be surprised if they push him to head to NYC or even Chicago, with the understanding that they will take care of that $30 deficit he would sign into
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My vote is Jersey.
+1, LeBron loves Jay-Z, their moving to Brooklyn soon, with LeBron, Lopez, and Wall as their core, not to mention Devin Harris and Courtney Lee, pretty solid team. Add one more role player and their a contender in the east.
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+1, LeBron loves Jay-Z, their moving to Brooklyn soon, with LeBron, Lopez, and Wall as their core, not to mention Devin Harris and Courtney Lee, pretty solid team. Add one more role player and their a contender in the east.
Slow down on them adding John Wall, at least until tomorrow night.
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well, I could see LBJ play somewhere for 2 years (Cleveland or Miami) then going to Brooklyn when the move and arena is finally complete.
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Slow down on them adding John Wall, at least until tomorrow night.
Almost hoping for Minnie to win the lottery, they would either draft John Wall and be stuck with 3 PG's or trade down 1 spot to nab Turner.
No matter what Khan will eff it up.
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I've heard more and more the past couple days about Wade, Bosh, and James planning to get together and possibly find a way for all three of them to play in the same city. One thing no one seems to be thinking of is that the NBA has a soft cap. The Bulls haven't previously gone over the luxury tax because Reinsdorf doesn't want to pay the tax if he doesn't feel he has a chance to win the title.
My guess is that if they go for James, it will be in a sign and trade deal, likely sending Luol Deng the other way, possibly Hinrich as well to keep the contracts in line. That would mean they still have enough money for one max player and one mid-level without going over the cap. But if they wanted to break over the cap, that would allow for all three.
The problem with this theory is that the Bulls bringing in all of the big three free agents would kill their ability to simply put together a roster. It'd give them a starting five of Rose, Wade, James, Bosh, and Noah, but their bench would only have Taj Gibson and James Johnson. Add in two rookies in the draft (dream scenario for me is Gordon Hayward and Jordan Crawford). After that, maybe a rookie free agent joins the bench (another dream, Lazar). That leaves five roster spots still to be filled. Joe Alexander may stay as a minimum player, possibly either Rob Kurz or Chris Richard, but that's a bench with pretty much no experience or quality, and unless Reinsdorf really doesn't care about the tax, I can't see any way all three would fit, though considering it is a soft cap, two could be a very realistic possibility.
That could put Wade in Chicago as well. Him and my dream of Lazar would be nice to have them close to home for recruiting purposes.
And before everyone blasts me, the dream scenario could also play out in Miami, New York, or New Jersey.
Oh, and willie, I think with Cleveland it's all about the title. They haven't been able to win one and rather than getting closer, seem to be getting further away. My guess is he'll sign elsewhere, but he'll only sign a three year deal. If he joins Chicago (or New York, or Miami, or the Clippers) for three years, he is then eligible for a Larry Bird rule contract. But if Cleveland can find a way to bring in another heavy-hitter free agent, there's every chance he could stay. But it won't be for money. He's got more money than he knows what to do with already, and an extra million a year for him would be the equivalent of one of us getting a ten-cent raise. At the end of the year, the extra couple hundred bucks might be nice, but you won't notice it on a weekly basis.
I would say that the chances of Cleveland helping LBJ leave them are <0.01%... they wouldn't do a sign and trade plain and simple.
There are specific ways teams can "break through" on the cap and I don't think this is how it is handled, it's not just a "Hey I wanna sign a ton of GREAT players so I'm going to do it"... this is what the new Nets owner isn't quite catching too ;)
Concerning the money, LBJ has made it clear that money does speak to him, he has stated that he wants to be the first billionaire athlete. That's why he hangs with the likes of the Oracle of Omaha. Also, it's easy for us "average Joe's" to say that $1M can't be that big of a deal to comeone making that much already... and a million is a million still and you're kidding yourself if you honestly don't thin money speaks to these guys. I will say, it probably doesn't to the same scale as it does to us, but it definitely still speaks.
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I'm not trying to convince you of anything because we all know that won't happen. I'm just saying that I don't think it's all that unreasonable to say that Jennings is not very far behind where Rose was after Rose's first year in the NBA like some people seem to think it is. I also think Jennings has more room for improvement than Rose does (Rose already has the body fit for the NBA, while Jennings is really slim; Rose already has a great shot selection, while Jennings doesn't). IF Jennings can improve on those things (which I think he can considering he just turned 20 years old), I think he has the potential to be the better all-around point guard. Right now I would take Rose in a draft of point guards because he has proven that he has the shot selection and consistency that Jennings does not yet have.
I also think you make blind statements with no proof of them at all (see your statement about Rose's defensive potential vs. Jennings's...I can all but guarantee that you had no clue Jennings averaged over 1.2 steals to Rose's 0.7). You make these statements like they are fact when you evidently do not have much knowledge of Jennings's game and numbers. My guess is that you only watched Jennings play at most 4 times during the regular season (when they played the Bulls) and MAYBE 4 or 5 of the Bucks' playoff games.
Another of your blind, matter-of-fact statements that you make is that Evans isn't even in the same league as Rose. You say you won't even address him because of this. Please do. I will as well. Here are their numbers this year (Rose already has the HUGE advantage of having a year in the NBA behind him as well).
Rose: 20.8 ppg, 6 apg, 3.8 rpg, 2.78 turnovers/gm, 49% fg, 27% 3 point, 77% ft, 0.7 steals/gm
Evans: 20.1 ppg, 5.8 apg, 5.3 rpg, 3 turnovers/gm, 46% fg, 26% 3 point, 75% ft, 1.51 steals/gm
That's really not in the same league? Don't give me the "Rose is the focal point of the defense every night and gets double teamed all over." So does Evans. At 6'6", 220 lbs, compared to Rose's 6'3" 190 lbs, Evans has a higher ceiling in both defense (over double the steals/gm) and rebounds. They are pretty equal in their playmaking ability and their scoring ability. I'm not sure I understand how Evans isn't even in Rose's league, so please address this.
Why do you get so mad and aggressive? Chill out. You sound like how you describe chicago fans. I just told you I thought your man was going to make 3-6 all star games and you respond like a dick. Let me put it this way, I think he'll have a border line hall of fame career. Is that good enough? What the hell do i have to say? Fist ballot?
And my guess is that you didn't watch rose play more than 9 times this year.
If all you are trying to do is convince me that Bj had close to as good of a rookie year as rose and not take into account his sophmore season than fine. I thought that the fact that i had jennings in up to 6 all star games would be an indicator that i thought he was good and had a good rookie year.
Rose is 2 inches taller and 20lbs heavier with a bigger verticle and is as quick as they come. That is why i think he has a higher defensive apex. And no, you are once again wrong about me, I looked at a player page and saw the steals stat before making the post about defence.
Fine, I'll retract evan's comments. There, you convinced me of something. Who's a big winner?
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Why do you get so mad and aggressive? Chill out. You sound like how you describe chicago fans. I just told you I thought your man was going to make 3-6 all star games and you respond like a dick. Let me put it this way, I think he'll have a border line hall of fame career. Is that good enough? What the hell do i have to say? Fist ballot?
And my guess is that you didn't watch rose play more than 9 times this year.
If all you are trying to do is convince me that Bj had close to as good of a rookie year as rose and not take into account his sophmore season than fine. I thought that the fact that i had jennings in up to 6 all star games would be an indicator that i thought he was good and had a good rookie year.
Rose is 2 inches taller and 20lbs heavier with a bigger verticle and is as quick as they come. That is why i think he has a higher defensive apex. And no, you are once again wrong about me, I looked at a player page and saw the steals stat before making the post about defence.
Fine, I'll retract evan's comments. There, you convinced me of something. Who's a big winner?
Like I said, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm just trying to point out that you don't know how Jennings's 2nd season will go, so I'm not sure how you can say that Rose has a better one already when Jennings hasn't had a 2nd season yet. And I'm not sure how you can say Evans isn't even in the same league as Rose when he clearly is. Responding like a dick? Sorry I gave that vibe away, wasn't intending to. Maybe it's just because you saw that you were wrong and thought I was a dick for showing that. I'm pretty sure your response about "owning me regularly" (speaking to your blind statements with no merit behind them) was more of a dick reply than any I've posted. But again, just my opinion.
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Like I said, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm just trying to point out that you don't know how Jennings's 2nd season will go, so I'm not sure how you can say that Rose has a better one already when Jennings hasn't had a 2nd season yet. And I'm not sure how you can say Evans isn't even in the same league as Rose when he clearly is. Responding like a dick? Sorry I gave that vibe away, wasn't intending to. Maybe it's just because you saw that you were wrong and thought I was a dick for showing that. I'm pretty sure your response about "owning me regularly" (speaking to your blind statements with no merit behind them) was more of a dick reply than any I've posted. But again, just my opinion.
+1