Protests

[muwarrior69]

We're talking about the need for systemic and cultural changes in our institutions and your response is "Blame the Dems" and other GOP talking points.

... and to do that is to replace Trump with Biden and all that will come to pass. Let's be honest. That is the reason for all the protest, not George Floyd. Yet even if Biden wins in November there will be no systemic or cultural changes. It will remain just as it was under Obama.

[GooooMarquette]

A different perspective the vast majority here will disagree with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtPfoEvNJ74

I think she misunderstands the entire situation when she talks about everybody trying to turn George Floyd into a “hero” or a “martyr.”

George Floyd is simply a symbol of the way black Americans are treated in our society, plain and simple. So yeah – his name is out there and will be remembered for a long time. But I doubt anybody other than perhaps his family will remember him as any sort of hero.

[MUBurrow]

Most of our cities are run by democrat machines that include democrat led police and teacher’s unions as part of their power structure. This has been true for decades. When problems are “systemic” it’s fair to ask - who benefits most from that system? As long as educators care more for its union members than its students, as long as law enforcement cares more for its union members that its citizens and as long as both are enabled by/in cahoots with city hall talk about systemic change will be just that - talk.

You're right that Democrats need to have a come to Jesus moment about their role in getting us here.  Popular Democratic positions on policing from the 90s combined with Democratic labor policies as applied to public-sector unions have played a large role in where we are. 

But this has been cemented by the lack of incentive for either party to turn it around.  A couple of examples:

Act 10 in Wisconsin was a Republican policy to take on public unions but exempted police and fire unions.  Taking on police unions, in addition to being a huge political liability, doesn't fit the Repulican 'law and order' agenda, and they know that their constituents would have viewed the inevitable protests very differently if cops were marching alongside teachers.  Without research, I would imagine that Wisconsin isn't the only example of a state that has talked a big anti-public sector union game while allowing police unions to sneak out the side door.

Another example is Rudy Giulani leading an NYC protest of thousands of off-duty cops against then mayor David Dinkins's attempt to establish an independent review board of the police department in 1992.  As mayor he then went on to enact policies that significantly expanded officer discretion and resisted calls to enact civil liberty protections.

Make no mistake, ensuring that no one polices the police has been a bipartisan project.

[Pakuni]

... and to do that is to replace Trump with Biden and all that will come to pass. Let's be honest. That is the reason for all the protest, not George Floyd. Yet even if Biden wins in November there will be no systemic or cultural changes. It will remain just as it was under Obama.

Yes, literally everything is about Trump.
I'm sorry that you've been fooled into having such a narrow perspective.

[muwarrior69]

Just FYI about Candace Owens:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candace_Owens

The Guardian has described Owens as "ultra-conservative",[43] and New York magazine and the Columbia Journalism Review have described her as "right-wing".[44][45] The Daily Beast has called her views "far-right" and the Pacific Standard called her a member of the "alt-right", though she has rejected both terms.[4][46][47][48] She was influenced by the works of Ann Coulter, Milo Yiannopoulos, Ben Carson, and Thomas Sowell.[49]

Owens has said: "The left hates America, and Trump loves it."[50] She has said that the left is "destroying everything through this cultural Marxist ideology."[50] In late March 2020, Owen argued that the United States was suffering from a "doomsday cult" of liberal paranoia.[51]

Wow from all those "middle of the road publications". Is her view any less valid than one poster here that stated burglary, embezzlement and perjury should no longer be crimes punished with imprisonment? Isn't that what free debate should be about? But no, according to one of our Moderators her voice does not count because she is too conservative.

The Black Lives Matter movement is a fraud. Will the funeral Of Captain Dorn be on national television? Will Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson eulogize him? I guess some Black Lives don't matter.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Most of our cities are run by democrat machines that include democrat led police and teacher’s unions as part of their power structure. This has been true for decades. When problems are “systemic” it’s fair to ask - who benefits most from that system? As long as educators care more for its union members than its students, as long as law enforcement cares more for its union members that its citizens and as long as both are enabled by/in cahoots with city hall talk about systemic change will be just that - talk.

Lenny you’re broader point about the citizens holding the government accountable to what we want is fair. However to pretending like switching the letter next to a mayors name results in better cities is lazy. 

New York is a good example of that as someone else pointed out.

And for the others thinking this is just an issue with our cities—it’s not.  We all have a part in what this has become. 

[muwarrior69]

Yes, literally everything is about Trump.
I'm sorry that you've been fooled into having such a narrow perspective.

I guess all the anti Trump posts here were just fooling.

[mu_hilltopper]

Wow from all those "middle of the road publications". Is her view any less valid than one poster here that stated burglary, embezzlement and perjury should no longer be crimes punished with imprisonment? Isn't that what free debate should be about? But no, according to one of our Moderators her voice does not count because she is too conservative.

I said none of those things.  Frankly, I watched the video and agreed with most of what she said. 

[muwarrior69]

Lenny you’re broader point about the citizens holding the government accountable to what we want is fair. However to pretending like switching the letter next to a mayors name results in better cities is lazy. 

New York is a good example of that as someone else pointed out.

And for the others thinking this is just an issue with our cities—it’s not.  We all have a part in what this has become.

You are right. Look at what happened to that black jogger in Georgia. The police did not kill him, but they sure looked the other way when they clearly knew who killed him and did nothing until it was exposed on video, but neither political side is interested in coming together and solving this. Its all about maintaining or gaining power. We live in crazy times.

[muwarrior69]

I said none of those things.  Frankly, I watched the video and agreed with most of what she said.

Then why the FYI quoting all those publications?

[mu_hilltopper]

Then why the FYI quoting all those publications?

I think it's important to know who people are, their history, education, biases, and motivations, so I can make an informed decision on their veracity.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

You are right. Look at what happened to that black jogger in Georgia. The police did not kill him, but they sure looked the other way when they clearly knew who killed him and did nothing until it was exposed on video, but neither political side is interested in coming together and solving this. Its all about maintaining or gaining power. We live in crazy times.

Nonsense.

[Pakuni]

I guess all the anti Trump posts here were just fooling.

I can only speak for myself, but I've never written that Trump is responsible for George Floyd's death or the systemic failures that allowed it or others like it to happen.  I haven't blamed or exonerated either political party or any single politician, and I haven't said either political party or any politician can fix it.

I have said these are cultural and societal issues that will take a lot of time and hard work by as many people as possible to repair.
The real enemy of that change isn't Donald Trump or Democratic mayors. It isn't any one person or political party. It's those who want to take the easy way out by claiming 1) there isn't really a problem, 2) if there is a problem, it's someone else's problem or 3) there's a problem, but me and my side aren't to blame and we're not responsible for fixing it.
I've seen examples of all three here today.

[reinko]

You are right. Look at what happened to that black jogger in Georgia. The police did not kill him, but they sure looked the other way when they clearly knew who killed him and did nothing until it was exposed on video, but neither political side is interested in coming together and solving this. Its all about maintaining or gaining power. We live in crazy times.

Someone is having a Sunday Funday

[jesmu84]

Wow from all those "middle of the road publications". Is her view any less valid than one poster here that stated burglary, embezzlement and perjury should no longer be crimes punished with imprisonment? Isn't that what free debate should be about? But no, according to one of our Moderators her voice does not count because she is too conservative.

The Black Lives Matter movement is a fraud. Will the funeral Of Captain Dorn be on national television? Will Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson eulogize him? I guess some Black Lives don't matter.

[Lennys Tap]

We're talking about the need for systemic and cultural changes in our institutions and your response is "Blame the Dems" and other GOP talking points.

Who said anything about Republicans? Not me. But the questions (which you evidently don’t want to deal with) remain - who is running our cities? Who has been running them for the past several decades? If you don’t like the “systems” put in place in our cities and want systemic change does it make any sense to trust those who have established the “systems“ and benefit from them? Again, not me.

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny you’re broader point about the citizens holding the government accountable to what we want is fair. However to pretending like switching the letter next to a mayors name results in better cities is lazy. 

New York is a good example of that as someone else pointed out.

And for the others thinking this is just an issue with our cities—it’s not.  We all have a part in what this has become.

Frenns

Where did I ever say switching “Ds” to “Rs” was a solution.

My only point is when you (pretty much) have a monopoly and the choice is between systemic change and appeasing powerful members of your coalition that allows you to maintain that monopoly (ie, power) - the choice is easy.

[Pakuni]

Who said anything about Republicans? Not me. But the questions (which you evidently don’t want to deal with) remain - who is running our cities? Who has been running them for the past several decades? If you don’t like the “systems” put in place in our cities and want systemic change does it make any sense to trust those who have established the “systems“ and benefit from them? Again, not me.

I didn't say you wrote anything about Republicans, I said you give Republican talking points. Which you did. Here were are having a discussion about failures in our systems of policing and justice, and you drag in the teachers unions. What do teachers unions have to do with law enforcement culture? Nothing, of course. But they're a popular bogeyman for the right.

As already has been pointed out, this isn't a big city problem. Bad policing occurs in the suburbs and rural America as well. Philandro Castille was killed in a suburb. Walter Scott was killed in a suburb. Jordan Edwards was killed in a suburb. Antwon Rose was killed in a suburb. You've chosen to focus in big cities, and I can imagine only one reason why.

Also, Lenny, I know you're smart enough to realize that plenty of policies that impact life in major cities come not from mayors' offices, but state capitols and the federal government. If you insist, I'll list off a half dozen or more Republican policies that have been detrimental to lower-income, inner-city communities. But I'd rather not, because that would miss the point as much as your post.
Try as you might, this isn't a Blue vs Red issue. There's plenty of blame to go around for leadership of both parties at all levels of government for how we got here. Pointing fingers at one side only isn't going to solve anything.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Frenns

Where did I ever say switching “Ds” to “Rs” was a solution.

My only point is when you (pretty much) have a monopoly and the choice is between systemic change and appeasing powerful members of your coalition that allows you to maintain that monopoly (ie, power) - the choice is easy.

Fair.  The preservation of the power brokers is definitely a problem. I would argue though it’s less about politics and more about priorities.  Case in point my small town has been dominated by Ds and we have a looming fiscal crisis.  The party actually split to try to address it.  But it’s like you say, the coalitions are causing it to be quite difficult to throw the mayor out and start anew.  The crisis will likely have to come before it happens. 

[TSmith34, Inc.]

The Black Lives Matter movement is a fraud. Will the funeral Of Captain Dorn be on national television? Will Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson eulogize him? I guess some Black Lives don't matter.

Making conservative arguments is part of the give and take of debate.  However, if those arguments aren't grounded in reality, how does one even have a debate? Her point of view is, "The left hates America, and Trump loves it," neither of which is remotely true. There is no way to have a rational conversation with such a person.

For the record, I don't think conservatives hate America either, they simply have a very different vision for the country, one that has more in common with the 1950's, than I do.

And I am curious, why in your opinion is the BLM movement a fraud?

[WarriorDad]

... and to do that is to replace Trump with Biden and all that will come to pass. Let's be honest. That is the reason for all the protest, not George Floyd. Yet even if Biden wins in November there will be no systemic or cultural changes. It will remain just as it was under Obama.

Shaun King is a very left wing social media activist.  Too left for me, but he said something that hit home.  Some introspection on our part is necessary.  Most of these acts by police are done in cities controlled by Democrats, in some cases for more than 100 years.  If we do not like how the policing is going, why aren’t we changing it?  We control the mayor’s office, the city councils, and ultimately the Chief of Police.

He brings up a salient point.  We are the ones voting for this year after year, decade after decade.   

https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1268911183878410246?s=21

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Shaun King is a very left wing social media activist.  Too left for me, but he said something that hit home.  Some introspection on our part is necessary.  Most of these acts by police are done in cities controlled by Democrats, in some cases for more than 100 years.  If we do not like how the policing is going, why aren’t we changing it?  We control the mayor’s office, the city councils, and ultimately the Chief of Police.

He brings up a salient point.  We are the ones voting for this year after year, decade after decade.   

https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1268911183878410246?s=21

Oh what a bunch of horsesh*t. I was wondering when you were going to chime in with your two-bit “wisdom.” 

[Pakuni]

Good for Mitt.

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1269742303469600771/pu/vid/1280x720/yD8ISsbDzGsMay4Y.mp4?tag=10

[shoothoops]

Oh what a bunch of horsesh*t. I was wondering when you were going to chime in with your two-bit “wisdom.”

If only Shaun King a cent of credibility.....

https://www.thedailybeast.com/shaun-king-keeps-raising-money-and-questions-about-where-it-goes-3

[JWags85]

My GF had the Candace Owens video sent to her by her mother (who isn’t especially political, she just had it shared on social media). I listened to it while on a long drive the other day without knowing it was Owens.

I understand her general “point” about putting a fresh coat of paint on otherwise unsavory characters in revisionist history. Or making heroes out of martyrs in pursuit of a ideology.

But that’s about it.  There is no greater movement to make George Floyd some flawless hero on any grand scale. There is pain and thoughts for his family. There are murals, sure, but that’s more related to his representation of what is wrong with the relationship between police and the black community, and the need for a catalyst for change. If a tourist to China (with a spotty background) had been killed by the government for some reason, they would take on a mythic, larger than expected legacy as catalyst/martyr/trigger for addressing the danger or issues of China.  Say he was an alcoholic with a pair of DUIs and had been fired from a job recently and was drunk when the government took him into custody.  That wouldn’t mean he was a perfect person but he still didn’t deserve to be callously killed, just like George Floyd.

More concerning, and what I immediately latched onto, is this is nowhere near the time nor the place. It’s very calculated and strategic red herring to discredit the movement or divert attention from the underlying issues or causes. And that’s dastardly. There’s plenty of plausible deniability to hide behind on that, but this isn’t opposition to a statue of Floyd being erected in a year or renaming a school or park after it. This is downplaying the validity over rallying around his death because he had a sketchy past and trying to instead overemphasize an issue that really isn’t pressing or that overarching