MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Marcus92 on June 10, 2016, 03:17:34 PM
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When the top 10 threads on MUScoop include topics such as pizza, lacrosse and Bo Ryan, it's time for a new list. So who would make your all-time Marquette team? Originally I wanted to do this as some sort of poll, but the format doesn't really fit very well (not enough options for voting).
Instead, simply post your 1st, 2nd and 3rd teams to this thread. That means 15 players total. I'll update the first post every so often to show who the collective leaders are — 5/3/1 points for 1st/2nd/3rd team, respectively — along with which Scoopers have contributed.
Below the first post, you'll find basic info on some of the top contenders by position. Caveats are many. I could find little on most players before 1965. And a number of players defy position. Was Don Kojis really a center at 6-5? Was Lazar? Feel free to dispute my categorization or vote however you want. There's no rule that your 1st team has to include 1 player from each position — that's just how I voted. And if you have info for a player who's been unfairly excluded, post it here.
Okay, here goes:
Results as of 6/16 (points in parentheses):
G Dwyane Wade (131)
C Jim Chones (128)
F Maurice Lucas (104)
F Bo Ellis (97)
G Butch Lee (90)
G Dean Meminger (81)
G George Thompson (47)
F Jae Crowder (35)
G Doc Rivers (34)
G Earl Tatum (27)
F Don Kojis (26)
G Travis Diener (23)
C Jerome Whitehead (18)
F Steve Novak (16)
F Lazar Hayward (15)
G Jerel McNeal (14)
G Sam Worthen (11)
F Larry McNeil (12)
C Jim McIlvane (10)
F Jimmy Butler (8)
C Robert Jackson (8)
G Darius Johnson-Odom (7)
G Wesley Matthews (7)
G Lloyd Walton (7)
G Dominic James (5)
F Henry Ellenson (4)
F Davante Gardner (4)
G Vander Blue (3)
F Damon Key (3)
G Tony Smith (3)
F Jamil Wilson (3)
G Tony Miller (2)
F Ron Curry (1)
C Amal McCaskill (1)
C Terry Rand (1)
Contributors:
4everwarriors, Bagpiping Boxer, bilsu, brandx, brewcity77, BrewCity83, CT Warrior, dgies9156, Dr. Blackheart, DUNKS45, Gato78, GooooMarquette, Goose, HoopsterBC, keefe, Lennys Tap, Marcus92, Marquette Fan In NY, MerrittsMustache, mileskishnish72, MU82, MuMark, muwar2003, nyg, PBRme, PTM, The Sultan of Sunshine, TAMU Eagle, warriorfred
My ballot:
MU All-Time, 1st team
PG Sam Worthen (5)
SG Dwyane Wade (5)
SF Jae Crowder (5)
PF Maurice Lucas (5)
C Jim Chones (5)
MU All-Time, 2nd team
PG Dean Meminger (3)
SG Butch Lee (3)
SF Lazar Hayward (3)
PF Bo Ellis (3)
C Jerome Whitehead (3)
MU All-Time, 3rd team
PG Tony Miller (1)
SG George Thompson (1)
SF Ron Curry (1)
PF Henry Ellenson (1)
C Jim McIlvane (1)
Seems impossible that Butch Lee, George Thompson or Bo Ellis could possibly come off the bench on any Marquette team. But I feel I made the right roster choices. Scary deep backcourt. The center position also looks very strong.
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Point Guard
Travis Diener
6-1/175 | 2001-05
119 g, 1674 pts (14.1 ppg), 370 reb (3.1 rpg), 613 ast (5.2 apg)
Cordell Henry
5-10/160 | 1998-02
120 g, 1347 pts (11.2 ppg), 324 reb (2.7 rpg), 430 ast (3.6 apg)
Aaron Hutchins
5-10/175 | 1994-1998
122g, 1439 pts (11.8 ppg), 348 reb (2.9 rpg), 550 ast (4.5 apg)
Dominic James
5-11/175 | 2005-09
129 g, 1749 pts (13.6 ppg), 436 reb (3.4 rpg), 632 ast (4.9 apg)
Dean Meminger
6-0/175 | 1968-71
87 g, 1637 pts (18.8 ppg), 446 reb (5.1 rpg) 300 ast (3.4 apg)
1971 All American
Tony Miller
6-0/189 | 1991-95
123 g, 1027 pts (8.3 ppg), 561 reb (4.6 rpg), 956 ast (7.8 apg)
Glenn “Doc” Rivers
6-4/185 | 1980-83
89 g, 1234 pts (13.9 ppg), 292 reb (3.3 rpg), 409 ast (4.6 apg)
Tony Smith
6-3/185 | 1986-90
114 g, 1688 pts (14.8 ppg), 468 reb (4.1 rpg), 469 ast (4.1 apg)
Lloyd Walton
6-0/160 | 1973-76
87 g, 1006 pts (11.6 ppg), 222 reb (2.6 rpg), 480 ast (5.5 apg)
Sam Worthen
6-5/195 | 1978-80
56 g, 810 pts (14.5 ppg), 234 reb (4.2 rpg), 384 ast (6.9 apg)
1980 All American
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Shooting Guard
Darius Johnson Odom
6-2/215 | 2009-12
105 g, 1649 pts (15.7 ppg), 321 reb (3.1 rpg), 262 ast (2.5 apg)
Butch Lee
6-0/185 | 1974-78
115 g, 1735 pts (15.1 ppg), 375 reb (3.3 rpg), 376 ast (3.3 apg)
1977 All American
1978 All American
Wesley Matthews
6-5/215 | 2005-09
127 g, 1673 pts (13.2 ppg), 628 reb (4.9 rpg), 271 ast (2.1 apg)
Jerel McNeal
6-3/200 | 2005-09
130 g, 1985 pts (15.3 ppg), 608 reb (4.7 rpg), 455 ast (3.5 apg)
2009 All American
Earl Tatum
6-5/185 | 1972-76
103 g, 1234 pts (12.0 ppg), 563 reb (5.5 rpg)
1976 All American
George Thompson
6-2/200 | 1966-69
87 g, 1773 pts (20.4 ppg), 688 reb (7.9 rpg)
1969 All American
Dwyane Wade
6-4/212 | 2001-03
65 g, 1281 pts (19.7 ppg), 420 reb (6.5 rpg), 255 ast (3.9 apg)
2002 All American
2003 All American
Brian Wardle
6-5/205 | 1997-2001
117 g, 1690 pts (14.4 ppg), 457 reb (3.9 rpg), 213 ast (1.8 apg)
Michael Wilson
6-4/175 | 1978-82
119 g, 1299 pts (10.9 ppg), 421 reb (3.5 rpg), 350 ast (2.9 apg)
Bob Wolf
6-2/178 | 1964-67
81 g, 1479 pts (18.3 ppg)
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Small Forward
Jimmy Butler
6-6/215 | 2008-11
106 g, 1277 pts (12.0 ppg), 579 reb (5.5 rpg), 180 ast (1.7 apg)
Chris Crawford
6-9/235 | 1993-97
113 g, 1048 pts (9.3 ppg), 391 reb (3.5 rpg), 93 ast (0.8 apg)
Jae Crowder
6-6/235 | 2010-12
72 g, 1049 pts (14.6 ppg), 545 reb (7.6 rpg), 131 ast (1.8 apg)
2012 All American
Ron Curry
6-8/190 | 1990-93
81 g, 1018 pts (12.6 ppg), 592 reb (7.3 rpg), 132 ast (1.6 apg)
Roney Eford
6-5/205 | 1992-96
124 g, 1459 pts (11.8 ppg), 691 reb (5.6 rpg), 232 ast (1.9 apg)
Lazar Hayward
6-6/225 | 2006-10
138 g, 1859 pts (13.5 ppg), 910 reb (6.6 rpg), 122 ast (0.9 apg)
Oliver Lee
6-7/215 | 1977-81
109 g, 1227 pts (11.3 ppg), 450 reb (4.1 rpg), 123 ast (1.1 apg)
Steve Novak
6-10/220 | 2002-06
126 g, 1567 pts (12.4 ppg), 524 reb (4.2 rpg), 123 ast (1.0 apg)
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Power Forward
Ric Cobb
6-5/200 | 1968-70
58 g, 712 pts (12.3 ppg), 545 reb (9.4 rpg)
Henry Ellenson
6-11/242 | 2015-16
33 g, 561 pts (17.0 ppg), 250 reb (9.7 rpg)
Bo Ellis
6-9/197 | 1973-77
119 g, 1663 pts (14.0 ppg), 1085 reb (9.1 rpg)
1977 All American
Damon Key
6-8/245 l 1990-94
114 g, 1599 pts (14.0 ppg), 714 reb (6.3 rpg)
Don Kojis
6-5/205 | 1958-61
81 g, 1504 pts (18.6 ppg), 1222 reb (15.1 rpg)
1961 All American
Maurice Lucas
6-9/215 | 1972-74
60 g, 939 pts (15.7 ppg), 643 reb (10.7 rpg)
1974 All American
Larry McNeil
6-9/195 | 1971-73
58 g, 901 pts (15.5 ppg), 554 reb (9.6 rpg)
Trevor Powell
6-6/210 | 1987-91
106 g, 1494 pts (14.1 ppg), 716 reb (6.8 rpg)
Davante Gardner
6-8/290 | 2010-14
127 g, 1287 pts (10.1 ppg), 564 reb (4.4 rpg)
Scott Merritt
6-10/240 | 2001-05
126 g, 1049 pts (8.3 ppg), 687 reb (5.5 rpg)
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Center
Jim Chones
6-11/220 | 1970-72
50 g, 952 pts (19.0 ppg), 583 reb (11.7 rpg)
1972 All American
Luke Fischer
6-11/245 | 2014-16
57 g, 664 pts (11.6 ppg), 318 reb (5.6 rpg), 100 blk (1.8 bpg)
Robert Jackson
6-10/255 | 2002-03
33 g, 509 pts (15.4 ppg), 249 reb (7.5 rpg)
Amal McCaskill
6-11/235 | 1991-96
111 g, 861 pts (7.8 ppg), 700 reb (6.3 rpg), 175 blk (1.6 bpg)
Jim McIlvane
7-1/240 | 1990-94
118 g, 1278 pts (10.8 ppg), 673 reb (5.7 rpg), 399 blk (3.4 bpg)
Terry Rand
6-9/220 | 1953-56
77 g, 1309 pts (17.0 ppg), 978 reb (12.7 rpg)
Jerome Whitehead
6-10/220 | 1975-78
89 g, 987 pts (11.1 ppg), 680 reb (7.6 rpg)
1978 All American
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Doc
Wade
Novak
Ellis
Chones
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Chones
Lucas
Ellis
Wade
Lee
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Doc
Wade
Novak
Ellis
Chones
Perfectly fine if you only want to vote for 5 players — I'll count them as your first team. But you're welcome to name a 2nd and 3rd team, as well.
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1st: Rivers, Wade, Kojis, Lucas, Chones
2nd: Meminger, Lee, Thompson, Tatum, Ellis
3rd: Worthen, Matthews, Butler, Crowder, Ellenson
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1st: Lee, Wade, Thompson, Ellis, Chones
2nd: Meminger, Rivers, Kojis, Lucas, Crowder
I would have switched Lucas over Ellis if Luke had played more than two years.
Favorite misses: Tatum, Worthen, Walton, Toone.
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You could go with the best player at every position or build a team that would win the national championship. For example the best center would be Jim Chones, but if I think a team needs shot blocking I would go with Jim MacIlvanie. The best power forward in my opinion is Bo Ellis, but if I wanted a physical power forward I would go with Maurice Lucas. What complicates things for me is that the great players often played different positions in the pros. Wade 2g in college and point guard in pros. Butler forward in college 2g in pros. Lucas center in college power forward in pros. A national championsip needs defense, rebounding, shooting and ball handling. The best ball handler is Meminger the best passer is Worthen. Would a backcourt of Butch Lee and Wade work well together? Do you go with McGuire's theory that a center should be a rebounder and defender instead of a scorer or do you want the offense to focus on taking the ball inside.
Here is my starting team to win the national championship.
I have to take Ellis and Wade, so the other players have to fit in with them. I need outside shooters that could fit in athletically with these two. Okay this is my team to competer for NCAA title
C. Chones
PF Ellis
SF Tatum
SG Wade
PG Diener
Diener was not as good of a ball handler as Meminger, a passer as Worthen or defender as James, but he was a much better outside shooter and I know he teamed well with Wade.
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You could go with the best player at every position or build a team that would win the national championship. For example the best center would be Jim Chones, but if I think a team needs shot blocking I would go with Jim MacIlvanie. The best power forward in my opinion is Bo Ellis, but if I wanted a physical power forward I would go with Maurice Lucas. What complicates things for me is that the great players often played different positions in the pros. Wade 2g in college and point guard in pros. Butler forward in college 2g in pros. Lucas center in college power forward in pros. A national championsip needs defense, rebounding, shooting and ball handling. The best ball handler is Meminger the best passer is Worthen. Would a backcourt of Butch Lee and Wade work well together? Do you go with McGuire's theory that a center should be a rebounder and defender instead of a scorer or do you want the offense to focus on taking the ball inside.
Here is my starting team to win the national championship.
I have to take Ellis and Wade, so the other players have to fit in with them. I need outside shooters that could fit in athletically with these two. Okay this is my team to competer for NCAA title
C. Chones
PF Ellis
SF Tatum
SG Wade
PG Diener
Diener was not as good of a ball handler as Meminger, a passer as Worthen or defender as James, but he was a much better outside shooter and I know he teamed well with Wade.
The whole thing is an impossible hypothetical — so you can vote and build your team however you want. It's great to read the thinking behind your picks. My one suggestion is that how a player does in the pros is irrelevant. This is about what a team might look like of the best players to ever put on a Marquette uniform.
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The Dream
D Wade
Bo Ellis
Maurice Lucas
Jim Chones
2nd
Doc
Butch Lee
Don Kojis
Crowder
Thompson
3rd
Lucky Lloyd
Sam
Travis
Earl Tatum
Rand
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Another thing I'd point out is that if you're thinking of this as a team that could win a national championship, a team is more than 5 players.
That's in part why I suggested nominating a 1st, 2nd and 3rd team. I like the idea of Worthen starting as an all-around point guard who can score and dish — then having Meminger come into the game off the bench (along with Lee) for some serious offensive punch. Tony Miller is the steady reserve who you can trust with the ball when the main rotation players need a breather.
Crowder, Lucas and Chones could hold their own rebounding against anybody — plus provide a post presence and help spread the floor (Jae).
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Doc
Wade
Novak
Ellis
Chones
Doc Rivers wasn't half the college player that Dean Meminger and Butch Lee were. Steve Novak wasn't in the same league as George Thompson, Mo Lucas, Earl Tatum and Don Kojis.
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1st: Meminger, Butch, Tatum, Bo, Chones
2nd: Travis, DWade, Jae, Luke, Whitehead
3rd: Lloyd, Jerel, Lazar, Kojis, McIlvaine
I voted on how they did at MU. And FWIW, Tatum mostly played small forward - Butch was the SG while he was there.
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Doc Rivers wasn't half the college player that Dean Meminger and Butch Lee were. Steve Novak wasn't in the same league as George Thompson, Mo Lucas, Earl Tatum and Don Kojis.
Completely accurate on both statements.
I chose Wade and Lee @ guard, but really, I could have easily put all three on the 1st team.
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Current results as of 6/10 (points in parentheses):
C Jim Chones (30)
G Dwyane Wade (30)
F Bo Ellis (26)
F Maurice Lucas (18)
G Butch Lee (16)
G Doc Rivers (13)
F Jae Crowder (9)
G Dean Meminger (9)
G George Thompson (9)
F/C Don Kojis (8)
G/F Earl Tatum (8)
G Sam Worthen (7)
G Travis Diener (5)
F Steve Novak (5)
F Lazar Hayward (3)
C Jerome Whitehead (3)
F Henry Ellenson (2)
F Jimmy Butler (1)
F Ron Curry (1)
G Wesley Matthews (1)
C Jim McIlvane (1)
G Tony Miller (1)
Maybe it's been mostly younger guys responding so far, but there is no way anyone leaves Thompson off the 1st team if they ever saw him play.
He, Lee, and Meminger should all have more votes
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Maybe it's been mostly younger guys responding so far, but there is no way anyone leaves Thompson off the 1st team if they ever saw him play.
He, Lee, and Meminger should all have more votes
Probably true. My MU memories begin with Meminger and Chones, and accordingly, I almost exclusively picked guys I saw play. The only exception was Kojis due to his insane rebounding numbers, and I put him third team.
I'm amazed Lee isn't a consensus first teamer. Final Four MOP in '77, NPOY in '78. Wade was damn good, but my sense is that people are picking him ahead of Lee more for his post-MU accomplishments. Or maybe it's younger fans giving the edge to guys they saw play.
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Meminger
Wade
Chones
Lucas
McNeil
Lee
Thompson
Ellis
Tatum
Whitehead
To not have Larry McNeil on the list too bad. Probably the most underrated player in MU history. He was just fantastic, so he gets my vote.
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Doc Rivers wasn't half the college player that Dean Meminger and Butch Lee were. Steve Novak wasn't in the same league as George Thompson, Mo Lucas, Earl Tatum and Don Kojis.
Cool.
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1st: Meminger, Butch, Tatum, Bo, Chones
2nd: Travis, DWade, Jae, Luke, Whitehead
3rd: Lloyd, Jerel, Lazar, Kojis, McIlvaine
I voted on how they did at MU. And FWIW, Tatum mostly played small forward - Butch was the SG while he was there.
Any process that leaves Wade off first 5 is wrong. Ditto Lucas IMO.
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What complicates things for me is that the great players often played different positions in the pros. Wade 2g in college and point guard in pros. Butler forward in college 2g in pros. Lucas center in college power forward in pros.
FWIW, no.
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Meminger
Chones
Wade
Bo
Butch
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The question in my mind is whether a team of Marquette greats could win the National Championship in 2017?
Would players from the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's hold their own in today's game? Who would coach?
Lee
Wade
Ellis
Lucas (non-negotiable)
Chones
Difficult to leave Thompson out of that line-up.
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HE only played one season. IMO, he should not be considered.
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Any process that leaves Wade off first 5 is wrong. Ditto Lucas IMO.
Ummmm...ok.
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Kojis, Wade, Lee, Lucas and Chones
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Meminger
Wade
Chones
Lucas
Bo
The only real question in my mind was Lee or Dream. Really a toss up. The rest were easy.
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Why is Thompson second string? His numbers are incredible. Did it in three seasons.
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Meminger
Wade
Chones
Lucas
Bo
The only real question in my mind was Lee or Dream. Really a toss up. The rest were easy.
Agree with your top 6 and that Dean and Butch are a tossup. Thompson and Kojis or Tatum to fill out the 8 man rotation.
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Maybe it's been mostly younger guys responding so far, but there is no way anyone leaves Thompson off the 1st team if they ever saw him play.
Hah, by my calculations the YOUNGEST person that might remember GT playing in an MU uniform would be at least 52. And that's assuming they have vivid memories from the age 5! Considering the median age in the US is somewhere in the range of 38, you could reasonably assume that currently less than half of MU basketball fans ever saw GT in a Marquette uniform.
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Why is Thompson second string? His numbers are incredible. Did it in three seasons.
Now I didn't see him play. But my impression from what I hear was that he was very good but much more talented than anyone on the team at the time and therefore his numbers are a bit inflated when compared to those who came after.
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FWIW, no.
Yep...lol
It's almost like he has never watched Wade play in the NBA.
My 5 are
Wade
Dean the Dream
Butch
Bo
Chones
2nd team
Lucas
Thompson
Kojis
Doc
Crowder
3rd
Travis
Tatum
Jerel
Whitehead
Walton
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Any process that leaves Wade off first 5 is wrong. Ditto Lucas IMO.
If either would have played 3 years, I think it would be different..
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Hah, by my calculations the YOUNGEST person that might remember GT playing in an MU uniform would be at least 52. And that's assuming they have vivid memories from the age 5! Considering the median age in the US is somewhere in the range of 38, you could reasonably assume that currently less than half of MU basketball fans ever saw GT in a Marquette uniform.
I saw George play when I was a kid - I put him on the 1st team - and he was only the 3rd best player on the floor that night.
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I saw George play when I was a kid - I put him on the 1st team - and he was only the 3rd best player on the floor that night.
Brands, I grew up with George, the most exciting player in MU history, he is your starting small forward with no doubt in my mind. Chones gets the nod at center over
Maurice Lucas who played center at MU, became a great power forward in the NBA, but not at MU. Point Guard, had to be Dean the Dream, by far. Had a tremendous
career. Bo Ellis, easily the best at power forward, took MU to 2 final four championships, won one, Al lost the other with 2 T's, ball game. Finally, D Wade or Butch Lee,
to the millennials, I am sure Dwayne is there choice. But Butch Lee has to be the one, played all 4 years at MU. MVP in the championship game, he was the man that
year. DWade a much better pro for sure, but college it was Butch.
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Brands, I grew up with George, the most exciting player in MU history, he is your starting small forward with no doubt in my mind.
I completely agree.
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People have got to stop calling Ron Curry a SF. He couldn't make the transition at Arizona, so he transferred to Marquette. O'Neil tried again to put him there initially and the experiment failed again. Once he was put back at PF, he became a force.
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Question.
Are we basing this off their careers in Marquette uniforms or their overall lifetime of basketball?
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Question.
Are we basing this off their careers in Marquette uniforms or their overall lifetime of basketball?
Seems to be a mix. I picked mine based on their careers at MU (but admittedly limited by my personal time frame, which started with Meminger and Chones).
I think people who make picks like Wade over Butch or Dean are picking based on total careers. Which is fine, but IMHO if that's the standard, Chris Crawford should be getting a lot more votes.
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Was George Thompson the most exciting player in MU history? I think it is a matter of perspective ( I was 14 years old) . I would go to the freshmen games just to watch George play. His most exciting year was his sophomore year, because after that year you could no longer dunk in a game (thanks to Lew Alcinder). As a sophomore he could do a spinning dunk in a game, when no one else was. These dunks were not necessarily on break aways. At 6'2" he would just abuse the 6'8" white power forwards. You have got to remember at this time schools in the south were still not recruiting black players. Today George would be playing against players that on an average are significantly more athletic than the average power forwards he played against. George was ahead of his time and you definitely went to games to watch him. I think the fact the George had a long pro career at guard validates how great he was. I was 50 years old when I watched Wade play. It is much harder to impress a 50 year old than a 14 year old, so that is why it is matter of perspective. Watching Wade fake and blow by his defender was truly exciting even for a 50 year old. Wade did it against today's athletes. Through a 14 year old eyes I rather see Thompson play again, but in reality Wade in his prime vs Thompson in his prime I would go with Wade. I would go with George over Wade if I had to pick between the two as my favorite player, but again that is a 14 year old vs. a 50 year old. In between those two perhaps the player I would solely go to game to watch would be Sam Worthen. Now he was not near as good as Thompson or Wade, but at that time his passes were worth the price of admission. I think that was the most disappointing thing about Henry Ellenson. I was hoping that he would be an exciting player like Thompson or Wade, but like many very good players you appreciate how good they are, but they really are not exciting players to watch. Haanif was more exciting than Henry.
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Results updated in the first post. With 15 Scoopers voting so far, the top 5 are:
Jim Chones
Dwayne Wade
Bo Ellis
Butch Lee
Maurice Lucas
Memenger just misses out. Then there's a pretty big drop, with Thompson, Kojis, Rivers, Crowder and Tatum all separated by just 5 points.
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Don't really feel qualified to use anyone prior to when I started watching, so as good as I've heard guys like Chones, Thompson, and Lee are, it would be tough for me to include them without having enough sense of their game. Also not sure the positions line up. How is Jae a SF? He undoubtedly played the 4 for us. Played alongside Jimmy (at the 3) his junior year and Jamil played a lot more like a 3 than a 4 in my eyes his senior year. If anything, Jae probably spent more time defending 5s than he did 3s.
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Seems to be a mix. I picked mine based on their careers at MU (but admittedly limited by my personal time frame, which started with Meminger and Chones).
I think people who make picks like Wade over Butch or Dean are picking based on total careers. Which is fine, but IMHO if that's the standard, Chris Crawford should be getting a lot more votes.
I'm on the same page in basing votes on a player's time at Marquette alone.
I chose Dwyane over Butch and Dean not because of his NBA success, but because of his all-around play. I think Wade was the better rebounder and distributor, a legitimate triple-double threat on just about any given night. Throw in the steals and blocks on defense, and Wade was a terror on both ends of the court. Just imagine what he would have done as a senior.
Now, both Wade and Lee were two-time All Americans — so I can see how you could pick Lee. But I don't think it's fair to assume recency bias in favor of Dwyane. His performance speaks for itself.
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Don't really feel qualified to use anyone prior to when I started watching, so as good as I've heard guys like Chones, Thompson, and Lee are, it would be tough for me to include them without having enough sense of their game. Also not sure the positions line up. How is Jae a SF? He undoubtedly played the 4 for us. Played alongside Jimmy (at the 3) his junior year and Jamil played a lot more like a 3 than a 4 in my eyes his senior year. If anything, Jae probably spent more time defending 5s than he did 3s.
All good questions. That's why I mentioned that many players defy position in the first post. (Lazar also comes to mind.) You can ignore all that if you want. It's your all-time Marquette team and you can vote however you like.
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Results updated in the first post. With 15 Scoopers voting so far, the top 5 are:
Jim Chones
Dwayne Wade
Bo Ellis
Butch Lee
Maurice Lucas
Memenger just misses out. Then there's a pretty big drop, with Thompson, Kojis, Rivers, Crowder and Tatum all separated by just 5 points.
Four on that list brought MU to at least a Final Four. Three left early. Hard to leave Dean off, but Butch fills that spot. I can see George over Mo.
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Agree with your top 6 and that Dean and Butch are a tossup. Thompson and Kojis or Tatum to fill out the 8 man rotation.
So who are the top 5 on your 1st team? I can't count your vote without it.
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Four on that list brought MU to at least a Final Four. Three left early. Hard to leave Dean off, but Butch fills that spot. I can see George over Mo.
Is this simply meant as commentary, or as a vote? I need to know which 5 players make up your first team (and 2nd/3rd teams if you like) to count them in the results.
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Is this simply meant as commentary, or as a vote? I need to know which 5 players make up your first team (and 2nd/3rd teams if you like) to count them in the results.
George over Mo. Butch over Dean.
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Rob Frozena enough said.
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Seems to be a mix. I picked mine based on their careers at MU (but admittedly limited by my personal time frame, which started with Meminger and Chones).
I think people who make picks like Wade over Butch or Dean are picking based on total careers. Which is fine, but IMHO if that's the standard, Chris Crawford should be getting a lot more votes.
I'm basing my pick of Wade solely on his career at Marquette.
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Chones
Lucas
Ellis
Wade
Lee
Kojis
Worthen
Thompson
Tatum
Meminger
Whitehead
Walton
Doc
Crowder
McNeil
*Terry Rand
I saw all of these guys play live, although Kojis was in the NBA. Not really much difference between any of these teams. if we made a 4th and 5th team they would be very strong as well. I never saw Terry Rand play so can't put him on any list. According to Bill Russell he was fantastic and the best player he played against in college which is an indication of his strength as a player.
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I'm on the same page in basing votes on a player's time at Marquette alone.
I chose Dwyane over Butch and Dean not because of his NBA success, but because of his all-around play. I think Wade was the better rebounder and distributor, a legitimate triple-double threat on just about any given night. Throw in the steals and blocks on defense, and Wade was a terror on both ends of the court. Just imagine what he would have done as a senior.
Now, both Wade and Lee were two-time All Americans — so I can see how you could pick Lee. But I don't think it's fair to assume recency bias in favor of Dwyane. His performance speaks for itself.
I have no problem with that - and agree what Wade was a fantastic college player. The problem I have is with people who claim it was "wrong" to leave Wade off the first team, as though Wade was soooo much better that Lee wasn't even a worthy choice. The only way I see that argument is if the poster was looking at the whole (pro) career, or if he never saw Lee play.
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I decided to do a team of just players who were at Marquette in my lifetime. I don't feel qualified to accurately pick out guys from the pre-KO era.
First Team:
PG: Travis Diener
SG: Dwayne Wade
SF: Jae Crowder
PF: Steve Novak
C: Robert Jackson
Second Team:
PG: Tony Miller
SG: Jerel McNeal
SF: Lazar Hayward
PF: Damon Key
C: Jim McIlvaine
Third Team:
PG: Dominic James
SG: Darius Johnson-Odom
SF: Jimmy Butler
PF: Henry Ellenson
C: Amal McCaskill
Fourth Team:
PG: Aaron Hutchins
SG: Vander Blue
SF: Wesley Matthews
PF: Ron Curry
C: Chris Crawford
Honorable Mentions:
Brian Wardle
Luke Fischer
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I would swap Jackson and McIlvaine. Mac was a hell of a center.
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Having seen most of these guys since Al's day (and all but one of the retired uniform numbers), here is what I would do:
Guards:
DWade
Butch
These are the two best guards in Marquette history, period. Some would argue theya re the two best players in Marquette history. Both led us to final fours and Butch was the national player of the year. When the team struggled, he put us on his back. Dwade's game against Kentucky in the Minneapolis regional back in 2003 was Al McGuire's first miracle on the way to sainthood.
Forwards:
Maurice Lucas
Bo Ellis
Marquette made the national championship game twice. These guys were the reason why. Maurice Lucas was a 14-year NBA veteran and the core of our 1974 team. Look at 1975 when he left for the ABA. The impact of Bo on our team can never be underestimated. Look at the difference between the 1977 team and the 1978 team, when Bo had been graduated. That said, there have been so many good players at this position, including George Thompson, Bob Lackey, Larry McNeill, Earl Tatum, Scott Merritt, David Boone, Steve Novak, Jeral McNeal, Henry, Don Kojis, Bernard Toone, Wes Matthews and the list goes on that I could easily make an all-time team out of any one of these guys.
Center:
Jim Chones
The mere mention of this man's name evokes a sense of what might have been. No doubt he is among the five best players ever for Marquette and as much as the impact was from losing Bo and Mo, it was nothing compared to what happened when we lost Jim Chones to the ABA. He was something and towers above every other center we ever had. Ever.
Dgies Second team all-time Warriors
Guards
Glenn Rivers
Dean Meminger
Forwards
Earl Tatum
George Thompson
Center
Jerome Whitehead
Honorable Mention All-time Warriors
Guards
Lloyd Walton Phd
Tony Miller
Travis Diener
Jim Boylan
Sam Worthan
Dominic James
Forwards
Larry McNeill
Lazar Hayward
Ulice Payne
Jimmy Butler
David Boone
Scott Merritt
Steve Novak
Wes Matthews
Henry Ellenson
Bob Lackey (I loved watching this guy play. he was the meaning of Marquette)
Jae Crowder
Centers:
Robert Jackson
Davante "Au-to-ma-tic" Gardner
Tommy Copa
Jim MacIllvaine
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Doc Rivers wasn't half the college player that Dean Meminger and Butch Lee were. Steve Novak wasn't in the same league as George Thompson, Mo Lucas, Earl Tatum and Don Kojis.
Doc wasn't a quarter the player of The Dream. In fact, I would put Lucky Lloyd and Worthen ahead of Rivers.
If it were between Dean and Butch I am not sure I could choose.
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First 5: The Dream, Butch, Luke, The Destroyer, Chones.
Next 5: Lucky Lloyd, Wade, Bo, McNeill, Whitehead
The lack of respect here for McNeill is shocking.
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The lack of respect here for McNeill is shocking.
I agree - probably due to the fact he only played two years. And while very good - not the equal of other two year players like Luke and Wade.
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I agree - probably due to the fact he only played two years. And while very good - not the equal of other two year players like Luke and Wade.
Larry McNeill left in a cloud of smoke around whether he should have left or not. On top of that, when Chones left in 1972, the team became Larry's team to pick up and see what he could do with it. The results speak for themselves. We were good in those years, but we did not excel the way we did with Lucas, Ellis, Tatum, Toone, etc.
I loved Larry McNeill as a player. But he left too soon and he didn't leave a legacy here.
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First 5: The Dream, Butch, Luke, The Destroyer, Chones.
Next 5: Lucky Lloyd, Wade, Bo, McNeill, Whitehead
The lack of respect here for McNeill is shocking.
Who is The Destroyer? I've followed Marquette basketball for more than 25 years and have never heard that nickname in reference to any player.
Found some basic stats on Larry McNeil and posted them on the first page of this thread.
Of the great Marquette players before my era, the 1977 team is the easiest to relate to. Because they won it all, they're more talked about and celebrated. Their national championship is a point of reference and pride for all MU basketball fans. I've watched their Final Four and title games multiple times. Bo has maintained strong connections with the program, including serving as an assistant coach.
For me, all-time greats like Meminger, Chones, Lucas, Thompson and Kojis are more pure legends. I know their names, team records and postseason accomplishments. But aside from maybe a few seconds of highlight video, I've never seen them play in a Marquette uniform. None of them probably get the attention or appreciation they deserve — and players at the next level like Larry McNeil only more so.
That's not a lack of respect on my part. I have great respect for the history of the program. But it's difficult to appreciate players you know little or nothing about.
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You could go with the best player at every position or build a team that would win the national championship. For example the best center would be Jim Chones, but if I think a team needs shot blocking I would go with Jim MacIlvanie. The best power forward in my opinion is Bo Ellis, but if I wanted a physical power forward I would go with Maurice Lucas. What complicates things for me is that the great players often played different positions in the pros. Wade 2g in college and point guard in pros. Butler forward in college 2g in pros. Lucas center in college power forward in pros. A national championsip needs defense, rebounding, shooting and ball handling. The best ball handler is Meminger the best passer is Worthen. Would a backcourt of Butch Lee and Wade work well together? Do you go with McGuire's theory that a center should be a rebounder and defender instead of a scorer or do you want the offense to focus on taking the ball inside.
Here is my starting team to win the national championship.
I have to take Ellis and Wade, so the other players have to fit in with them. I need outside shooters that could fit in athletically with these two. Okay this is my team to competer for NCAA title
C. Chones
PF Ellis
SF Tatum
SG Wade
PG Diener
Diener was not as good of a ball handler as Meminger, a passer as Worthen or defender as James, but he was a much better outside shooter and I know he teamed well with Wade.
Uhh Wade has always been a 2G lol
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#14
#3
#22
#20
#31
Ai na?
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See this is only one time where the older folks have an advantage since they actually saw the players in action. Moreover, some players were just orders of magnitude better than there respective teams. Guys who defined carrying a team and who built the MU program with Al.
To find the best look in the rafters, many of the best had their jerseys retired for good reason.
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Ners
Ners Jr.
Ners III
Ners IV
Ners V
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Ners
Ners Jr.
Ners III
Ners IV
Ners V
And they all dunk, hey?
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#14
#3
#22
#20
#31
Ai na?
With #15, #24 and #43 first off the bench.
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Uhh Wade has always been a 2G lol
I only watched Miami in playoff games and Wade often had the ball in his hands. Whether he was listed as point guard or not he was initiating the offense. Especially when he led Miami to their first title and won the playoff MVP award.
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I only watched Miami in playoff games and Wade often had the ball in his hands. Whether he was listed as point guard or not he was initiating the offense. Especially when he led Miami to their first title and won the playoff MVP award.
I noticed the same thing. Some of the pocket passes he makes are incredible.
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There's an interesting blend here, old guys putting their guys up and old guys that think Dwade played PG in the NBA.
Pretty much just shows the disconnect for me.
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I only watched Miami in playoff games and Wade often had the ball in his hands. Whether he was listed as point guard or not he was initiating the offense. Especially when he led Miami to their first title and won the playoff MVP award.
Just like the great point guard, Michael Jordan, who also often had the ball in his hands and initiated a lot of offense.
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Ners
Ners Jr.
Ners III
Ners IV
Ners V
Ever seem 'em on the floor together? They don't play, they all just keep trying to get the others to do what they want.
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Doc wasn't a quarter the player of The Dream. In fact, I would put Lucky Lloyd and Worthen ahead of Rivers.
If it were between Dean and Butch I am not sure I could choose.
No doubt Butch Lee was the best. That game in the '76 Olympics where he nearly single handedly beat Team USA clinches it for me. One of the best individual performances by a MU player. And I went to school with Dean.
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No doubt Butch Lee was the best. That game in the '76 Olympics where he nearly single handedly beat Team USA clinches it for me. One of the best individual performances by a MU player. And I went to school with Dean.
I remember that game in Montreal like it was yesterday.
Dean Smith packed that team with his own guys. None of them were worthy of even sniffing Alfred's jockstrap. Besides, he was also boning Pudvan.
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I remember that game in Montreal like it was yesterday.
Dean Smith packed that team with his own guys. None of them were worthy of even sniffing Alfred's jockstrap. Besides, he was also boning Pudvan.
Gail Pudvan, so hot, want to touch da heine. ah uoo, hey?
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There's an interesting blend here, old guys putting their guys up and old guys that think Dwade played PG in the NBA.
Pretty much just shows the disconnect for me.
"Old guys putting their guys up...."
Ummm...the guys we're "putting up" are the guys who helped make MU a true blue blood in the late 60s and throughout the 70s. Better record than UK, UNC, KU. That record was compliments of a great recruiter and coach named Al, and players like Chones, Meminger, Walton, Lucas, Ellis, Lee, et al.
Guys like Wade and Travis are right up there (I have them both second team), but to claim we are picking older players because we're old is absurd.
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With #15, #24 and #43 first off the bench.
Just to be sure, who's the #22 that you and 4everwarriors are referencing? Jerel McNeal wore #22 and is the school's all-time leading scorer, but he hasn't gotten many votes (let alone for the first team).
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Just to be sure, who's the #22 that you and 4everwarriors are referencing? Jerel McNeal wore #22 and is the school's all-time leading scorer, but he hasn't gotten many votes (let alone for the first team).
Gotta be Chones.
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Gotta be Chones.
Makes sense. Just checkin'.
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Results updated with 22 Scoopers voting. The top 5:
Jim Chones
Dwyane Wade
Bo Ellis
Butch Lee
Maurice Lucas
Meminger right up there. Thompson, Rivers, Tatum and Crowder round out the top 10.
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Gotta be Chones.
Why isn't his number retired?
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I only watched Miami in playoff games and Wade often had the ball in his hands. Whether he was listed as point guard or not he was initiating the offense. Especially when he led Miami to their first title and won the playoff MVP award.
He definitely handles the ball for majority of his time on court but he's still a SG. Just like someone like LeBron is a SF.
Those two would always handle the ball but Chalmers played PG
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George Thompson is the best small forward in MU history, bar none, Tatum was really good but George was special. Lucas played center at MU. Ellis and Thompson both played 4 years at MU with unbelievable success. The other forward that would be right there was Don Kojis.
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to claim we are picking older players because we're old is absurd.
Speak for yourself, Doc...
My wife always said I was stuck at 16
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Okay...I'm going back to the KO days since that's about as far back as I go. Also going with positions as I see them.
First Team
PG: Travis Diener
SG: Dwyane Wade
SF: Steve Novak
PF: Jae Crowder
C: Jim McIlvaine
Second Team
PG: Tony Smith
SG: Jerel McNeal
SF: Wesley Matthews
PF: Lazar Hayward
C: Robert Jackson
Third Team
PG: Dominic James
SG: Darius Johnson-Odom
SF: Jimmy Butler
PF: Henry Ellenson
C: Davante Gardner
Honorable Mention: Aaron Hutchins, Brian Wardle, Roney Eford, Damon Key, Amal McCaskill
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Why isn't his number retired?
Only played 1.75 seasons (freshmen weren't eligible and he signed 22 games into his junior year. All told, Jim played 51 games at Marquette - the Warriors were 50-1 and the one loss was by one point in the only game Dean Meminger fouled out of in his career. Refs called 3 or 4 offensive fouls on him (about a season's worth) that game.
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Only played 1.75 seasons (freshmen weren't eligible and he signed 22 games into his junior year. All told, Jim played 51 games at Marquette - the Warriors were 50-1 and the one loss was by one point in the only game Dean Meminger fouled out of in his career. Refs called 3 or 4 offensive fouls on him (about a season's worth) that game.
Seems like something that should be rectified if tenure is the issue.
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Surprised nobody has Terry Rand on there but anyways since I don't think I'm qualified to do this with the 70s players, or 80s players I'm going to stick to my 8 solid years of MU bball experience.
First:
Mcneal
DJO
Butler
Crowder
Hayward
Second:
James
Blue
Matthews
Wilson
Gardner
Don't think there's been any other prolific players during my span of MU fandom.
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Crowder doesn't belong in these conversations. Hayward had a better MU career and was just a better collegian. He's underappreciated for some reason.
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Crowder doesn't belong in these conversations. Hayward had a better MU career and was just a better collegian. He's underappreciated for some reason.
Totally disagree. Hayward had better career numbers because of time here, but Crowder was a force of nature on the court. There's a reason he was second team All American and Big East Player of the Year. The only player more impactful in the past 20 years was another two year guy named Wade.
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What is a very interesting debate is what's really a better group of basketball players. The McGuire era or the Crean-to-Hillbilly era. By the time the Hillbilly got things going, we became a powerhouse again. The said thing is, had the HIllbilly gotten it together here after the one mediocre year, we might have won big.
The McGuire era speaks for itself. Four of the top five players consistently mentioned in this thread, Ellis, Chones, Lee and Lucas, were McGuire era players. Most of the next 10 were McGuire era players.
But times change. By the 1990s and certainly by the 2000s, college basketball was far more competitive with far more teams fielding championship caliber squads. DJO, McNeal, Butler, Crowder, Matthews, Novak and Diener arguably are competitive with some of the best players we had in the 1970s. They played tougher competition than we did back then and their record was comparable to what we had until 1974.
Your thoughts gang?
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What is a very interesting debate is what's really a better group of basketball players. The McGuire era or the Crean-to-Hillbilly era. By the time the Hillbilly got things going, we became a powerhouse again. The said thing is, had the HIllbilly gotten it together here after the one mediocre year, we might have won big.
The McGuire era speaks for itself. Four of the top five players consistently mentioned in this thread, Ellis, Chones, Lee and Lucas, were McGuire era players. Most of the next 10 were McGuire era players.
But times change. By the 1990s and certainly by the 2000s, college basketball was far more competitive with far more teams fielding championship caliber squads. DJO, McNeal, Butler, Crowder, Matthews, Novak and Diener arguably are competitive with some of the best players we had in the 1970s. They played tougher competition than we did back then and their record was comparable to what we had until 1974.
Your thoughts gang?
My thoughts are that anybody who saw Chones, Lucas, Lee, Meminger and Thompson knows they could have competed quite nicely in any era.
I don't use positions because they are irrelevant -- now more than ever. That 5 would be damn imposing.
I have trouble deciding which of those five to drop to get Wade in there -- because Wade HAS to be in there. I guess I'll say Thompson because I actually never saw him play when he was at MU, forcing me to go with only on what I see in grainy films and what I hear from my fellow alums.
So my 5 is: Meminger, Lee, Wade, Lucas and Chones.
I believe that if one could put the 20-22 year old versions of those 5 on the same Marquette team, those Warriors would have beaten this year's Nova team ... and possibly quite handily.
Again, I said "I believe." I know I can't prove it. Of course, nobody else can prove they wouldn't have!
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What is a very interesting debate is what's really a better group of basketball players. The McGuire era or the Crean-to-Hillbilly era. By the time the Hillbilly got things going, we became a powerhouse again. The said thing is, had the HIllbilly gotten it together here after the one mediocre year, we might have won big.
The McGuire era speaks for itself. Four of the top five players consistently mentioned in this thread, Ellis, Chones, Lee and Lucas, were McGuire era players. Most of the next 10 were McGuire era players.
But times change. By the 1990s and certainly by the 2000s, college basketball was far more competitive with far more teams fielding championship caliber squads. DJO, McNeal, Butler, Crowder, Matthews, Novak and Diener arguably are competitive with some of the best players we had in the 1970s. They played tougher competition than we did back then and their record was comparable to what we had until 1974.
Your thoughts gang?
I believe the quality of play in college basketball was far better in the McGuire Era. You had have an incredible team to even make the tournament. There were no one and dones, most teams were upper class-men heavy. For several years freshman were not even eligible. Also I think the quality of teams we played back in the day was quite good. Teams change over time. For example Detroit which would be a cupcake today was one hell of an opponent back then. Our cupcakes were not that bad back then.
I believe the Crean to Hillbilly era consistently had a lot of good players. If the Hillbilly hadn't had the near nervous breakdown i agree big things would have been in store. The only modern players I had on my all time teams were Wade and Crowder, although certainly if I listed a 4th and 5th team it would have the more contemporary players and be just as good as the top 3 teams.
Don Kojis would still be great today by the way. He got the hard rebounds.
Marquette basketball during the McGuire era was something very special. The Crean to Hillbilly run was very good quality and hopefully Wojo can get us back to that level.
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Chones
Bo
Butch
Wade
Lucas
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My thoughts are that anybody who saw Chones, Lucas, Lee, Meminger and Thompson knows they could have competed quite nicely in any era.
I don't use positions because they are irrelevant -- now more than ever. That 5 would be damn imposing.
I have trouble deciding which of those five to drop to get Wade in there -- because Wade HAS to be in there. I guess I'll say Thompson because I actually never saw him play when he was at MU, forcing me to go with only on what I see in grainy films and what I hear from my fellow alums.
So my 5 is: Meminger, Lee, Wade, Lucas and Chones.
I believe that if one could put the 20-22 year old versions of those 5 on the same Marquette team, those Warriors would have beaten this year's Nova team ... and possibly quite handily.
Again, I said "I believe." I know I can't prove it. Of course, nobody else can prove they wouldn't have!
Hmm.... all time leading scorer with no shot clock and 3 point basket. Did it in only 3 seasons, not 4.
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1st team - Lee, Wade, Thompson, Ellis, Lucas
2nd team - Meminger, Diener, McNeil, Kojis, Chones
3rd team - Rivers, McNeal, Novak, Crowder, Whitehead
Don't know how you can leave Lee off first team. Final Four MOP and National POY his senior season.
Chones demoted for not playing full 2 seasons, but deserves first team
Don't know how anyone who watched Key and McIlvaine for four years could put McIlvaine over Key. Their junior year facing Big Country Reeves in the NCAAs and Coach O'Neill had Key start at center against him. McIlvaine much better shot blocker, Key much better at everything else.
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Butch Lee
Dwyane Wade
Bo Ellis
Maurice Lucas
Ners
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Don't know how anyone who watched Key and McIlvaine for four years could put McIlvaine over Key. Their junior year facing Big Country Reeves in the NCAAs and Coach O'Neill had Key start at center against him. McIlvaine much better shot blocker, Key much better at everything else.
Key was very good - underrated IMO.
Still, it was McIlvaine, not Key, who won Great Midwest POY in '93-'94. Key was second team. And McIlvaine not only led MU in blocks that year, he also led by a bit in RPG (8.3 to 7.9). So apparently a bunch of folks put McIlvaine over Key....
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Key was very good - underrated IMO.
Still, it was McIlvaine, not Key, who won Great Midwest POY in '93-'94. Key was second team. And McIlvaine not only led MU in blocks that year, he also led by a bit in RPG (8.3 to 7.9). So apparently a bunch of folks put McIlvaine over Key....
They did play four years, not just one.
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They did play four years, not just one.
Yes, they did.
Bigs take longer to develop. Key was more ready out of HS, but when they peaked, Mac was a more dominating player.
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Results updated. With 28 Scoopers voting, Wade has taken a narrow lead at the top of the list:
G Wade (126)
C Chones (123)
F Lucas (99)
F Ellis (97)
G Lee (90)
Pretty strong consensus seems to be emerging around those 5 players. Meminger is the clear #6 so far at 76 points. Then there's a pretty big drop-off to Thompson (42), Crowder (35), Rivers (34), Tatum (27), Kojis (26), Diener (23) and Whitehead (18). That's in part explained by many Scoopers only voting for a 1st team.
That would make for one tough 13-man roster, including 11 All-Americans. (So tough, in fact, that All-Americans Jerel McNeal and Sam Worthen don't make the cut.) Pretty well-balanced, too. Great ball handlers, scorers and passers in Wade, Lee, Meminger, Thompson, Rivers, Tatum and Diener. Plus the rebounding and inside play of Chones, Lucas, Ellis, Crowder, Kojis and Whitehead.
Keep the votes coming!
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It's worth noting that both Doc Rivers and Travis Diener were named to the AP Honorable Mention All-American team in 1982-83 and 2004-05, respectively.
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I believe the quality of play in college basketball was far better in the McGuire Era. You had have an incredible team to even make the tournament. There were no one and dones, most teams were upper class-men heavy. For several years freshman were not even eligible. Also I think the quality of teams we played back in the day was quite good. Teams change over time. For example Detroit which would be a cupcake today was one hell of an opponent back then. Our cupcakes were not that bad back then.
Marquette basketball during the McGuire era was something very special. The Crean to Hillbilly run was very good quality and hopefully Wojo can get us back to that level.
I disagree about the McGuire era quality of play. In those days, there were about five to seven really great teams and fall-off thereafter was huge. The fact that we were like 50-1 during the Chones era speaks for itself. Even the one-and-done teams of Slick Rick Pitino don't do that. Ditto for North Carolina, Duke and Florida. There is too much talent and it is far more distributed today than it was in 1966-1980 era. While Kentucky, Duke and North Carolina have won more than their proportionate share of national titles, the fact is that non-historical powerhouses like the Rodent, Florida, Texas etc., have all snuck in and made a strong impact.
Blame the Big East for some of that -- both current and historical.
I would agree with the general conclusion though that the Top 16 McGuire era players would be dominant in today's world. And, far fewer of them would have gone to Marquette than in the era from 1966-1977. We were successful because Marquette was open to all and because McGuire recognized talent, no matter where it came from and no matter what the race was of the players.
The reality of the day was that most SEC, ACC and other southern schools during the McGuire era, did not recruit African American athletes. Those that did had serious issues with making African American players part of the broader college community. Ray Mears at the University of Tennessee, for example, didn't recruit African-American athletes until after he had his backside handed to him by Al in 1971.
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Also, it seems very clear — even based on an informal, completely unscientific poll — that Jim Chones deserves to have his jersey retired.
I never had the chance to see him play. But based on everything I've read, he was absolutely one of the greatest players to ever wear a Marquette uniform.
The Warriors' record during his two seasons: 53-5 (.914), including two consecutive Sweet 16 appearances. After earning All-American honors as a junior in 1972, he went on to enjoy a long and successful pro career — averaging 12.5 ppg and 8.2 rpg over 10 seasons, including an NBA title with the L.A. Lakers in 1980. He later served as a radio and TV analyst for the Cleveland Cavaliers.
True, he only played at MU for two years. But so did Maurice Lucas and Dwyane Wade. For what it's worth, Chones averaged more rebounds per game during his Marquette career (11.7) than Lucas (10.7) or Ellis (9.1).
What can we do to help make this happen?
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Also, it seems very clear — even based on an informal, completely unscientific poll — that Jim Chones deserves to have his number retired.
I never had the chance to see him play. But based on everything I've read, he was absolutely one of the greatest players to ever wear a Marquette uniform.
The Warriors' record during his two seasons: 53-5 (.914), including two consecutive Sweet 16 appearances. After earning All-American honors as a junior in 1972, he went on to enjoy a long and successful pro career — averaging 12.5 ppg and 8.2 rpg over 10 seasons, including an NBA title with the L.A. Lakers in 1980. He later served as a radio and TV analyst for the Cleveland Cavaliers.
True, he only played at MU for two years. But so did Wade.
What can we do to help make this happen?
I think the big difference between Chones and Wade is that Chones did not finish his second season. I understand the money was too good to pass up, but I also understand from MU's POV that leaving the team early could be a disqualifier.
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Also, it seems very clear — even based on an informal, completely unscientific poll — that Jim Chones deserves to have his jersey retired.
I never had the chance to see him play. But based on everything I've read, he was absolutely one of the greatest players to ever wear a Marquette uniform.
If the decision was made to retire Wade's number without him earning a degree, then there's no doubt that Chones, one of the program's only 1st Team All-Americans, should have his number up there as well.
Sidenote: I'm a believer that MU should only retire the numbers of 1st Team AAs while honoring others'.
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If the decision was made to retire Wade's number without him earning a degree, then there's no doubt that Chones, one of the program's only 1st Team All-Americans, should have his number up there as well.
Sidenote: I'm a believer that MU should only retire the numbers of 1st Team AAs while honoring others'.
The purpose in my mind these days is to honor & remember your great players. I agree that since the precedent was re-set with Wade - you have to look at Chones. Not honoring one of your best solely because pro basketball was goofy during that time period does not make sense in today's world.
I support your second point but I think it is too late for that now correct?
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I think the big difference between Chones and Wade is that Chones did not finish his second season. I understand the money was too good to pass up, but I also understand from MU's POV that leaving the team early could be a disqualifier.
I don't buy this argument. Imagine that Henry Ellenson led us to a national title as a freshman before declaring for the NBA. MU would be crazy not to even consider retiring his jersey.
Was Chones one of the greatest players to wear a Marquette uniform or not? Seems like that should be the first criterion.
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My only picking old players, aside from Wade, is because the old players made far bigger impact during the MU years. In last 30 years few players really stand out as all time greats. There have been a lot of good players but not program changing players.
I believe 100% that Wade was greatest talent we ever had at MU. Short career and all he has to be on first team. If not for Wade I would have struggled picking between Dean, Tatum or George.
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I don't buy this argument. Imagine that Henry Ellenson led us to a national title as a freshman before declaring for the NBA. MU would be crazy not to even consider retiring his jersey.
Was Chones one of the greatest players to wear a Marquette uniform or not? Seems like that should be the first criterion.
When I say early, I mean in the middle of a season. The ABA's weird draft rules designed to get a jump on the NBA was the cause, but abandoning the team in the middle of the season means something, I think. (I realize abandon is a strong word, but it is what happened). I totally understand Jim's decision and wouldn't argue with it, but I also understand the POV that would not retire the number. I wouldn't have a problem with it whichever way the University decided to go.
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The purpose in my mind these days is to honor & remember your great players. I agree that since the precedent was re-set with Wade - you have to look at Chones. Not honoring one of your best solely because pro basketball was goofy during that time period does not make sense in today's world.
I support your second point but I think it is too late for that now correct?
Correct. IMO, it's too late to go back and "unretire" most of those numbers and then "honor" them instead.
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If the decision was made to retire Wade's number without him earning a degree, then there's no doubt that Chones, one of the program's only 1st Team All-Americans, should have his number up there as well.
Sidenote: I'm a believer that MU should only retire the numbers of 1st Team AAs while honoring others'.
Did Doc earn his degree?
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Most exciting players:
1st Team:
Artie Green
Dwyane Wade
Sam Worthen
Terry Reason
George Thompson
2nd Team:
Doc Rivers
Lloyd Walton
Jae Crowder
Mandy Johnson
Joe Nethen
3rd Team:
Earl Tatum
Dean Meminger
Jerel McNeal
Larry McNeill
Michael Wilson
Wesley Matthews (tie)
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Most exciting players:
1st Team:
Artie Green
Dwyane Wade
Sam Worthen
Terry Reason
George Thompson
2nd Team:
Doc Rivers
Lloyd Walton
Jae Crowder
Mandy Johnson
Joe Nethen
3rd Team:
Earl Tatum
Dean Meminger
Jerel McNeal
Larry McNeill
Michael Wilson
Wesley Matthews (tie)
Seems like Dominic ought to be somewhere on this list....
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Seems like Dominic ought to be somewhere on this list....
and Aaron Hutchins was a fun, exciting guy. The NIT finals team where it finally occurred to Deane to play Hutchins, Miller and Pieper together was an exciting backcourt to watch, or at least I thought so.
Great call on Artie Green.
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Seems like Dominic ought to be somewhere on this list....
Definitely. I'd even nominate DJO and Vander, especially early in their careers. The athleticism and talent was there. But until they learned how to recognize the pace of an opponent, you were either going to see an amazing play, or a horrible one (offensive foul, travel, turnover).
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When I say early, I mean in the middle of a season. The ABA's weird draft rules designed to get a jump on the NBA was the cause, but abandoning the team in the middle of the season means something, I think. (I realize abandon is a strong word, but it is what happened). I totally understand Jim's decision and wouldn't argue with it, but I also understand the POV that would not retire the number. I wouldn't have a problem with it whichever way the University decided to go.
That's where I am at with it. Its not about not earning his degree, its about leaving the team in the middle of the season.
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Rob Frozena enough said.
Exactly. Every team needs a walk-on to keep the GPA average up.
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That's where I am at with it. Its not about not earning his degree, its about leaving the team in the middle of the season.
Al encouraged him to leave.
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Al encouraged him to leave.
That doesn't matter to me at all in the purposes of this discussion.
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BrewCity
My all time exciting list is:
Artie #1 by wide margin
Wade
Doc
Sam Worthen
Dominic James
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Also, it seems very clear — even based on an informal, completely unscientific poll — that Jim Chones deserves to have his jersey retired.
I absolutely and totally agree.
One recognizes that Mr. Chones' tenure was 1.75 years. But he was A force. The fact that almost no one who knows Marquette basketball since the dawn of the McGuire era has left Mr. Chones off the Top 5 -- and we have had some great centers in Jerome and Jim -- speaks volumes to his ability. Had he stayed, we might have had multiple consecutive NCAA Championships. I sometimes wonder what his senior year would have been like with a front line of Jim Chones, Larry McNeill and Maurice Lucas.
In terms of talent, we would have been as good as the 1982 North Carolina team with Michael Jordan, Sam Perkins and James Worthy. But I digress.
I suspect the real reason he's not up there is the residual bad feeling over his departure. My recollection may be foggy, but the extent to which Al McGuire advised him to leave at the time he did was not known when he left and (my memory may be fading) was not fully known for some time thereafter. McGuire at the time, I recall, said his family needed the revenue from the NBA contract. I suspect a lot of us at the time had trouble believing that and thought the departure was a defection and greed. It was a big deal then and, with the benefit of hindsight, a much bigger deal later.
That said, Mr. Chones was a "man for others." He dealt with his family first. We should honor that and honor what he did for our team in the 1970s. Plus, he's a Wisconsin guy. Honor him with a banner up next to Bo Ellis' and Maurice Lucas'.
Do it this winter!
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Most exciting players:
1st Team:
Artie Green
Dwyane Wade
Sam Worthen
Terry Reason
George Thompson
2nd Team:
Doc Rivers
Lloyd Walton
Jae Crowder
Mandy Johnson
Joe Nethen
3rd Team:
Earl Tatum
Dean Meminger
Jerel McNeal
Larry McNeill
Michael Wilson
Wesley Matthews (tie)
Dom, DJO, and Trend Blackledge!
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Yeah, how could I forget Dominic James?!?! He belongs on that team for sure!
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Yeah, how could I forget Dominic James?!?! He belongs on that team for sure!
Hayward belongs over crowder. I love crowder but nothing like a rim rattling dunk and that's something Hayward could do while crowder's vertical was like half an inch.
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Hayward belongs over crowder. I love crowder but nothing like a rim rattling dunk and that's something Hayward could do while crowder's vertical was like half an inch.
Crowder was everywhere on the court, falling over himself to get the ball. I loved Wade, but Crowder's 110% effort 110% of the time was the most fun I've ever had watching a Marquette player. Excitement is the epitome of his game.
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Most exciting players:
1st Team:
Artie Green
Dwyane Wade
Sam Worthen
Terry Reason
George Thompson
2nd Team:
Doc Rivers
Lloyd Walton
Jae Crowder
Mandy Johnson
Joe Nethen
3rd Team:
Earl Tatum
Dean Meminger
Jerel McNeal
Larry McNeill
Michael Wilson
Wesley Matthews (tie)
Joe Nethen? Lol
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Joe Nethen? Lol
"All post game" no doubt.
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Most exciting players:
1st Team:
Artie Green
Dwyane Wade
Sam Worthen
Terry Reason
George Thompson
2nd Team:
Doc Rivers
Lloyd Walton
Jae Crowder
Mandy Johnson
Joe Nethen
3rd Team:
Earl Tatum
Dean Meminger
Jerel McNeal
Larry McNeill
Michael Wilson
Wesley Matthews (tie)
Other than Nethen, my choices would be pretty similar. I'd have Earl and Dean in the top 5, though.
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Crowder was everywhere on the court, falling over himself to get the ball. I loved Wade, but Crowder's 110% effort 110% of the time was the most fun I've ever had watching a Marquette player. Excitement is the epitome of his game.
And Hayward did the exact same thing only with a severely less intimidating butler and DJO that crowder had
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And Hayward did the exact same thing only with a severely less intimidating butler and DJO that crowder had
Hayward was different. A lot more polished and a lot more under control. While there were similarities to their games, Crowder was a lot more aggression and raw energy. Hayward was a great player, but in terms of being exciting to watch, I'd take Crowder every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
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Hayward, one of a few first round draft picks, and not even a third round honorable mention.
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Crowder was (and is) a much better defender. It's why he's in the NBA and Lazar is auditioning for Ghostbusters III.
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Crowder was (and is) a much better defender. It's why he's in the NBA and Lazar is auditioning for Ghostbusters III.
Sold.
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Team Floor Slap
David Cubillan
Coach Wojo
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Hayward was different. A lot more polished and a lot more under control. While there were similarities to their games, Crowder was a lot more aggression and raw energy. Hayward was a great player, but in terms of being exciting to watch, I'd take Crowder every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
Yes who can forget all the rim rattling bunny hop layups that crowder had, I remember how excited it got sophomore and junior me.
For basketball in general I'll take crowder but in terms of who was more exciting I'd take Hayward. But we're both stubborn so agree to disagree
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Hayward was different. A lot more polished and a lot more under control. While there were similarities to their games, Crowder was a lot more aggression and raw energy. Hayward was a great player, but in terms of being exciting to watch, I'd take Crowder every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
With exception to that one unpolished, out-of-control error he made (which probably wouldn't have made a difference had he not committed it, but it still would have been nice to have a chance).
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With exception to that one unpolished, out-of-control error he made (which probably wouldn't have made a difference had he not committed it, but it still would have been nice to have a chance).
That game still pisses me off. Not so much the Zar mistake, but the magical injury/free throw/recovery debacle.
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With exception to that one unpolished, out-of-control error he made (which probably wouldn't have made a difference had he not committed it, but it still would have been nice to have a chance).
I still think he got faked out by DJ coming off the screen. Zar was on the move, preparing to fire it into James coming towards him off the screen but instead of coming toward the ball, DJ faded back towards halfcourt putting DeMarre Carroll in the passing lane.
Approx 0:30...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfwkWbcpJkI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfwkWbcpJkI)
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Luke, Dream, Wade, Chones & Thompson.
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Luke, Dream, Wade, Chones & Thompson.
Dean the Dream?
Over the National Player of the Year in 1978?
Over the Most Valuable Player of the 1977 National Championship tournament?
Look, I loved the Dream but no way.
As to Thompson, he was great too. Our first. But I would take Bo Ellis any day of the week over George. And I might take Lackey over him on a good day, too. George was a great Warrior but Bo was our leader in 1977.
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Best 1 = #14
Best 2 = #15/#3
Best 3 = #31
Best 4 = #20
Best 5 = #22
Hey?
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Dean the Dream?
Over the National Player of the Year in 1978?
Over the Most Valuable Player of the 1977 National Championship tournament?
Look, I loved the Dream but no way.
As to Thompson, he was great too. Our first. But I would take Bo Ellis any day of the week over George. And I might take Lackey over him on a good day, too. George was a great Warrior but Bo was our leader in 1977.
I have Dean the Dream on my avatar but I had Butch over him on my ranking. Butch had far better free throw ability and that was the difference in that decision.
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Doc
Dean was awfully good but I cannot put him ahead of Wade, Butch or Bo. IMO Wade was one of a king and Butch and Bo were as good as college players as you can get. Bo was a stud for two years and Butch had two unreal seasons. Actually funny but I thought Butch would be a bust after the Freshman season. Found his poor shooting and turnovers to be worrisome and he turned into an all great.
The Dream was something else and a great winner and he only makes my second team.
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With exception to that one unpolished, out-of-control error he made (which probably wouldn't have made a difference had he not committed it, but it still would have been nice to have a chance).
Yeah...there was that... >:(
But you know what I mean, compared to Hayward, Crowder was the proverbial bull in the China shop.
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Doc
Dean was awfully good but I cannot put him ahead of Wade, Butch or Bo. IMO Wade was one of a king and Butch and Bo were as good as college players as you can get. Bo was a stud for two years and Butch had two unreal seasons. Actually funny but I thought Butch would be a bust after the Freshman season. Found his poor shooting and turnovers to be worrisome and he turned into an all great.
The Dream was something else and a great winner and he only makes my second team.
Might be a bit confusin', but by Best 1 I mean best point guard, Best 2 would be best shootin' guard, etc., hey?
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Joe Nethen? Lol
Joe Nethen was exciting to watch because you never knew when one of his errant elbows would start a fight in a game. Talk about a bull in a china shop....
Crowder was far more exciting to watch than Lazar. Both excellent college players, but Crowder was all grit, hustle and sweat. Lazar played his game with the cool demeanor; he made the game look easy. Yeah his dunks were nice and all, but he didn't have the pizzaz in his game.
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Best 1 = #14
Best 2 = #15/#3
Best 3 = #31
Best 4 = #20
Best 5 = #22
Hey?
Don't think #31 ever really played the 3. The 3 was manned by Tatum during Bo's first three seasons, and Neary (but really Toone) when Bo was a senior.
If you're going by the positions they played, ya gotta pick either #31 or #20.
That's what makes picking by positions really hard. #15 and #3 were arguably the two best players we ever had, but they both played the 2 (as you noted). And then of course, you have both Bo and Luke at the 4. Both tough calls, but I went with Butch and Bo.
Throw away positions, and the best five were probably:
#15
#3
#22
#31
#20
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Doc
I agree Dean was best PG. Think we are in agreement on about 99% of the player reviews over past 40+ seasons. Since I am much younger than you ;D, your memory of pre '70's is better than mine. Feel very fortunate to have seen the greats play in my lifetime. Hope we get to add a couple to the list before go off the air.
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Doc
I agree Dean was best PG. Think we are in agreement on about 99% of the player reviews over past 40+ seasons. Since I am much younger than you ;D, your memory of pre '70's is better than mine. Feel very fortunate to have seen the greats play in my lifetime. Hope we get to add a couple to the list before go off the air.
Goose, you raise an interesting point about better and best point guards -- and guards period. One of the things I wonder about is whether training, coaching and endurance is better today than it was 40 years or more ago. There are some players, like Butch, Dean, Sam, Glenn and DWade, who could play in any era. But, could an Allie McGuire, for example, be the catalyst today he was in the early 1970s? I don't know but I'm curious what the universe thinks.
One of the things that I find interesting is Pete Maravich. He's an all-time great, but his Daddy was head coach at LSU during his tenure. His team was so bad Pistol Pete was the entire offense and he shot 50 to 60 times a game -- or more. Could Maravich have gained the notoriety today with better perimeter defenses, faster guards, and more depth? I seriously doubt it, which is why I tend to think it's tough to compare eras, especially before the late 1960s.
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Goose, you raise an interesting point about better and best point guards -- and guards period. One of the things I wonder about is whether training, coaching and endurance is better today than it was 40 years or more ago. There are some players, like Butch, Dean, Sam, Glenn and DWade, who could play in any era. But, could an Allie McGuire, for example, be the catalyst today he was in the early 1970s? I don't know but I'm curious what the universe thinks.
One of the things that I find interesting is Pete Maravich. He's an all-time great, but his Daddy was head coach at LSU during his tenure. His team was so bad Pistol Pete was the entire offense and he shot 50 to 60 times a game -- or more. Could Maravich have gained the notoriety today with better perimeter defenses, faster guards, and more depth? I seriously doubt it, which is why I tend to think it's tough to compare eras, especially before the late 1960s.
I saw Pistol Pete torch one of the best NBA Defensive Guards for over 40 points. There is no question he would have been great today. With the rules the way they are now he may even have been better.
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dgies9156
Very biased here, but Pistol Pete could have played in any era, any style of ball and anyone's Dad as a coach. The Pistol was one of the rare talents the sport has ever seen and IMO he will remain a rare talent 50 years from now.
Now for Allie, again very biased, I think Allie was quite lucky to have played his Dad. I think the world of Allie as a person, glad he played at MU. That said, what he is a person, his off court success trumps his on court prowess by quite a large degree.
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Geez, Mark, Dean the Dream of the third string of most exciting players? You have to have not seen him.
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Results updated. Seems like the votes have tailed off — only one Scooper has posted an all-time Marquette team since Saturday. So this might be the final tally, as judged by 29 MU Scoop contributors:
All-Time Marquette, 1st team
G Dwyane Wade (131)
C Jim Chones (128)
F Maurice Lucas (104)
F Bo Ellis (97)
G Butch Lee (90)
All-Time Marquette, 2nd team
G Dean Meminger (81)
G George Thompson (47)
F Jae Crowder (35)
G Doc Rivers (34)
G Earl Tatum (27)
All-Time Marquette, 3rd team
F Don Kojis (26)
G Travis Diener (23)
C Jerome Whitehead (18)
F Steve Novak (16)
F Lazar Hayward (15)
All-Time Marquette, honorable mention
G Jerel McNeal (14)
G Sam Worthen (11)
F Larry McNeil (12)
C Jim McIlvane (10)
F Jimmy Butler (8)
C Robert Jackson (8)
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dgies9156
Very biased here, but Pistol Pete could have played in any era, any style of ball and anyone's Dad as a coach. The Pistol was one of the rare talents the sport has ever seen and IMO he will remain a rare talent 50 years from now.
Now for Allie, again very biased, I think Allie was quite lucky to have played his Dad. I think the world of Allie as a person, glad he played at MU. That said, what he is a person, his off court success trumps his on court prowess by quite a large degree.
Goose
Agree on Pistol. One of a kind player.
I recall that when Al was asked why he started Allie he replied that it was because he slept with the kid's mother.
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Goose
Agree on Pistol. One of a kind player.
I recall that when Al was asked why he started Allie he replied that it was because he slept with the kid's mother.
George (Sugar) Frazier once complained to Al:
Why does Allie start and get most of the minutes? I'm as good as he is!
Al replied:
As good won't cut it Suge. Allie's my kid. You want his minutes it's gotta be a knockout!
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Goose
Agree on Pistol. One of a kind player.
I recall that when Al was asked why he started Allie he replied that it was because he slept with the kid's mother.
No chance. He was Allie McGuire good playing in a conference where Allie McGuire good would make you all-conference and, potentially, conference player of the year.
I was never impressed by Maravich, and I saw him a lot, both at Memorial Gym when he played Vanderbilt and on TVS, when LSU was on the SEC Game of the Week. The only year where I was at all impressed by him was in his senior year when LSU recruited Fig Newton and Apple Sanders, both of whom gave LSU an inside presence. Still he was average compared to what we've seen since. He shot a million times and made six.
Oh, and for the record, Marquette played Maravich and LSU on the way to our 1970 NIT Championship. Kicked their Bengal Tiger backsides 101-79. For an Al McGuire team to score 101 points was really something and suggested the opposition stank, or least couldn't pay defense worth a darn.
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No chance. He was Allie McGuire good playing in a conference where Allie McGuire good would make you all-conference and, potentially, conference player of the year.
I was never impressed by Maravich, and I saw him a lot, both at Memorial Gym when he played Vanderbilt and on TVS, when LSU was on the SEC Game of the Week. The only year where I was at all impressed by him was in his senior year when LSU recruited Fig Newton and Apple Sanders, both of whom gave LSU an inside presence. Still he was average compared to what we've seen since. He shot a million times and made six.
Oh, and for the record, Marquette played Maravich and LSU on the way to our 1970 NIT Championship. Kicked their Bengal Tiger backsides 101-79. For an Al McGuire team to score 101 points was really something and suggested the opposition stank, or least couldn't pay defense worth a darn.
I respect the fact that you saw Pistol Pete play. Yes he played with lousy teams his entire career. However, I completely disagree with the rest of your analysis. I saw him play many times and was always impressed by what he delivered .
Pistol was not only a great college player but he also was one of the all time greats in the NBA. The guy led the NBA in scoring one year and scored 68 points in a game which at the time was the 3rd most ever in a game and the highest by a guard.
To compare him to Allie McGuire is a disservice to both.
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BLee
DWade
DKojis
MLucas
JChones
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No chance. He was Allie McGuire good playing in a conference where Allie McGuire good would make you all-conference and, potentially, conference player of the year.
I was never impressed by Maravich, and I saw him a lot, both at Memorial Gym when he played Vanderbilt and on TVS, when LSU was on the SEC Game of the Week. The only year where I was at all impressed by him was in his senior year when LSU recruited Fig Newton and Apple Sanders, both of whom gave LSU an inside presence. Still he was average compared to what we've seen since. He shot a million times and made six.
Oh, and for the record, Marquette played Maravich and LSU on the way to our 1970 NIT Championship. Kicked their Bengal Tiger backsides 101-79. For an Al McGuire team to score 101 points was really something and suggested the opposition stank, or least couldn't pay defense worth a darn.
"Playin' defense is like watchin' grass grow." Thank ya, Press Maravich, ai na?
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"Playin' defense is like watchin' grass grow." Thank ya, Press Maravich, ai na?
you'all have trouble not sayin ai na...? ;)
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Its a Quon thang, hey?