Another mass shooting

[naginiF]

By the way, just as I think Joe Biden was inarticulate but not not a racist, I likewise feel that way about the Republican candidate for governor of Florida.

I've not done any digging on this to see if the headline blurbs I saw were accurate but from your response i assume that the reports of DeSantis being an administrator on a facebook page that posts racist content have been shown to be not accurate?  If so, i'm with you - anyone can err and our future words and actions will confirm that it was an err.  If not, he's both inarticulate and a racist, no question.

[Lennys Tap]

I've not done any digging on this to see if the headline blurbs I saw were accurate but from your response i assume that the reports of DeSantis being an administrator on a facebook page that posts racist content have been shown to be not accurate?  If so, i'm with you - anyone can err and our future words and actions will confirm that it was an err.  If not, he's both inarticulate and a racist, no question.

naginF - I honestly don't know what you're talking about, but if their is evidence that would convince me DeSantis is a racist I would absolutely change my opinion regarding his remarks.

[naginiF]

naginF - I honestly don't know what you're talking about, but if their is evidence that would convince me DeSantis is a racist I would absolutely change my opinion regarding his remarks.

UUggghh! I actually had to log into Facebook to look into this - it's been at least 2 years since i've done so and i'm going to have a cocktail after this (actually...maybe 'thank you'?).

There were reports that he was an administrator to this excruciatingly stereotypical alt-right Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/DoNotTreadOnUs/.  He's not a current administrator and I didn't see any instance of him posting so may be false.  However, Mike Michaels who is the first admin listed has stated that he is an admin on the page https://twitter.com/natijomartinez/status/1034422749949833216/photo/1.

My guess is that the page members love DeSantis (just search his name on the page, it's clear they do)and that lead to MM bragging he was an admin regardless of if he was or not.  Smoke but no fire.

Edit:  He was an administrator of that site up until two days ago......therefore must definitely a strong history of racist actions.  Also, there are 7 other candidates for house/senate seats that are (5) or up until recently were (2) administrators for this page.  That speaks volumes to the positioning for winning in November

[forgetful]

I ache for young people who grow up in these war zones. And I understand the allure of the gang as a way out. But most don't make that bad/wrong choice. I don't think the mentally ill have a choice. That's the difference IMO.

Have you ever considered that many of these individuals growing up in these "war zones" suffer from mental illness because of the conditions, and that a lot of the violence stems from that?

20% of vets that served overseas suffer from major depression or PTSD, because of serving in those environments.  That leads to substantially higher instances of difficulties in society and violence. 

I'm not accusing you of anything, and understand where you are coming from, but too often people look for a mental health excuse for caucasian shooters, but never consider that people living in these "war zones" are also suffering, largely because we do not understand things like PTSD or major depression and how it relates to their environment.

The fact that we don't look for those reasons is a large example of hidden racial biases.

[Lennys Tap]

Have you ever considered that many of these individuals growing up in these "war zones" suffer from mental illness because of the conditions, and that a lot of the violence stems from that?

20% of vets that served overseas suffer from major depression or PTSD, because of serving in those environments.  That leads to substantially higher instances of difficulties in society and violence. 

I'm not accusing you of anything, and understand where you are coming from, but too often people look for a mental health excuse for caucasian shooters, but never consider that people living in these "war zones" are also suffering, largely because we do not understand things like PTSD or major depression and how it relates to their environment.

The fact that we don't look for those reasons is a large example of hidden racial biases.

I'm sure some of the young men in those war zones suffer from various mental health issues. But my guess is that a higher % of them see gangs as a way of life, a substitute for family, a possible way out, etc. IOW, most of them have multiple mitigating circumstances contributing to their poor choices. Powerful circumstances, yes, but IMO not as powerful as debilitating mental illness.

[MU82]

Let's assume DeSantis isn't a moron. I'm going to give him that: He's not a moron.

If he isn't a moron, he knows that Biden using "articulate" the way he did got Biden in trouble. We can argue all day if it got him in "enough" trouble, but it definitely got him in some trouble.

Also, if he isn't a moron, he knows that black folks look at being characterized as "articulate" the exact way TAMU explained.

Finally, assuming DeSantis isn't a TOTAL moron, he knows that every time a white person uses "monkey" to describe anything remotely relating to a black person, he is asking for big, big, big trouble.

I don't care if "monkey it up" is a real phrase people use -- I had never heard it, but I'll take the word of those who say they have. That's not the point. Just don't use it (if you're not a moron).

You know what else is a real word? Niggardly. It means cheap. But everybody who isn't a moron knows not to use it. There are plenty of other ways to say "cheap." Similarly, there are plenty of ways DeSantis could have claimed the black guy would mess things up without saying "monkey it up."

So, assuming DeSantis isn't a moron and knows all of those things, he probably is a racist -- or at least knowingly was appealing to the racists whose votes he needs.

Sorry, but moron or racist are the only two choices I see here.

And hey, maybe I was wrong to assume DeSantis is not a moron. I allow that could be true.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Then candidate Obama and Jesse Jackson almost immediately gave Joe a pass and the controversy was over quickly. If, say, Ted Cruz had said the same thing he's still be paying the price.

By the way, just as I think Joe Biden was inarticulate but not not a racist, I likewise feel that way about the Republican candidate for governor of Florida.

Well considering that Obama is who Biden made the comment about, he should be able to give him a pass. Honestly, the interaction is a great example of how these conversations should go.

1. Person says or does something unintentionally racist (which is something that every human being does on a fairly regular basis)
2. It is pointed out to said person that something they said or did was racist.
3. Person apologizes.
4. Other person forgives. (If the comment or action was directed at someone)
5. First person doesn't make the same mistake again.

If you want to know the key to getting the media to move on from something like this, the above is the winning formula. However, there are many who get stuck at point #3 whether it's their pride, fear of upsetting their base, or an inability to see it from a different viewpoint, many are unwilling to apologize. That's when the media will get on somebody.

[forgetful]

I'm sure some of the young men in those war zones suffer from various mental health issues. But my guess is that a higher % of them see gangs as a way of life, a substitute for family, a possible way out, etc. IOW, most of them have multiple mitigating circumstances contributing to their poor choices. Powerful circumstances, yes, but IMO not as powerful as debilitating mental illness.

Fair enough. 

My point would be that the symptoms and actions surrounding the Jacksonville shooter are similar and scope to that of an individual with addiction problems (in his case video games) and emotional issues stemming from a broken home. He comes from a background where the family could seek mental health help.  We look at him and see a kid with mental health issues.  The mental health is the problem.

Inner city youth that exhibit the same, are more likely to have addiction problems (drugs), and as a result see jail time, or end up in gangs.  Those families do not have access to mental health help, so they get branded as unruly, criminal youth, and the kid is the problem.

In one case the violent, unruly behavior is deemed a mental health problem, and they get psychiatric help and then are released.  In the other case, it is viewed as criminal activity and they are thrown in jail, and given no help, rather a criminal record.  The reality is both are mental health problems.

We do not treat them the same, often strictly because of their background.   Obviously this is not universally true, and there are all shades of this, but the fact is often our perspective is colored in bias.

And to clarify, this is not necessarily a racial issue, it just often is because of historic inequalities.  If the Jacksonville shooter had killed two and shot several others in a drug deal gone bad in the Jacksonville ghetto, we wouldn't be talking about "mental health" or new "gun laws"...it wouldn't have even made the news.  It would have been regarded as senseless inner city violence.  That is bias nonetheless.

[brewcity77]

I don't know, Brew. I was on the Board of Directors of a not for profit whose expressed purpose was to destigmatize mental illness and promote healing. In all the time I worked with them I never heard anyone (doctors, clinicians, patients) have a problem with the concept that mental illness was a (the?) major factor in these mass shootings. That doesn't mean, of course, that the handful of mentally ill mass shooters are synonymous with millions of people struggling with mental illness.You're actually the only person I've ever encountered who feels that anyone (let alone the "media and the populace") actually feels that way.

I came to that belief after listening to multiple conversations between individuals that suffer with mental illness and are sick of how that stigma is immediately applied in these situations.

As regards "words have meanings" I couldn't agree more. But you're not interested in their meanings. Your only interested in ascribing meanings based on your own biased perceptions (not just picking on you, we all have biased perceptions). For example "articulate" means intelligent and well spoken - unless a white republican says it in reference to a black man. Then (and only then) it's a "dog whistle", racist, etc. Sometimes a cigar is a cigar, a'ina?

No, you're definitely wrong about this. It's not my biased perceptions that I care about, it's the victims I care about. I make a point to listen and take in the views of people different from myself to better understand those perceptions.

The last people in America who need to worry about hurt feelings are white cis males like me. Voices like mine have no trouble being heard and never have. It's minorites, women, LBGTQ, those with physical and mental illness, and other voices that have been suppressed for centuries by white cis males that we should be listening to. Those are the biased perceptions I'm concerned about.

Certainly not white guys like me. We've never had it bad in America.

[MU82]

The last people in America who need to worry about hurt feelings are white cis males like me. Voices like mine have no trouble being heard and never have. It's minorites, women, LBGTQ, those with physical and mental illness, and other voices that have been suppressed for centuries by white cis males that we should be listening to. Those are the biased perceptions I'm concerned about.

Certainly not white guys like me. We've never had it bad in America.

You're on a roll, brewski. This is a perfect summation IMHO.

Next time I get to Milwaukee -- hopefully to watch a game this upcoming winter -- we gotta grab a ... well ... brewski!

[Lennys Tap]

Let's assume DeSantis isn't a moron. I'm going to give him that: He's not a moron.

If he isn't a moron, he knows that Biden using "articulate" the way he did got Biden in trouble. We can argue all day if it got him in "enough" trouble, but it definitely got him in some trouble.

Also, if he isn't a moron, he knows that black folks look at being characterized as "articulate" the exact way TAMU explained.

Finally, assuming DeSantis isn't a TOTAL moron, he knows that every time a white person uses "monkey" to describe anything remotely relating to a black person, he is asking for big, big, big trouble.

I don't care if "monkey it up" is a real phrase people use -- I had never heard it, but I'll take the word of those who say they have. That's not the point. Just don't use it (if you're not a moron).

You know what else is a real word? Niggardly. It means cheap. But everybody who isn't a moron knows not to use it. There are plenty of other ways to say "cheap." Similarly, there are plenty of ways DeSantis could have claimed the black guy would mess things up without saying "monkey it up."

So, assuming DeSantis isn't a moron and knows all of those things, he probably is a racist -- or at least knowingly was appealing to the racists whose votes he needs.

Sorry, but moron or racist are the only two choices I see here.

And hey, maybe I was wrong to assume DeSantis is not a moron. I allow that could be true.

Only 2 choices? So Biden is also either a racist or a moron. You wouldn't assume Obama would choose a moron for vice president because that would be racist. But if you assume Obama chose a racist as his VP wouldn't that assumption also be racist? It's a tangled web we weave when every utterance has to be filtered through the thought police.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Only 2 choices? So Biden is also either a racist or a moron. You wouldn't assume Obama would choose a moron for vice president because that would be racist. But if you assume Obama chose a racist as his VP wouldn't that assumption also be racist? It's a tangled web we weave when every utterance has to be filtered through the thought police.

You're missing the key difference again. Biden owned up and apologized. People can make mistakes and be forgiven for them. That is just being a normal human being.   It's when someone digs in and refuses to acknowledge how their words or actions impacted someone else that you that you stumble into moronic or racist territory.

[MU82]

You're missing the key difference again. Biden owned up and apologized. People can make mistakes and be forgiven for them. That is just being a normal human being.   It's when someone digs in and refuses to acknowledge how their words or actions impacted someone else that you that you stumble into moronic or racist territory.

Thanks, TAMU. Lenny is smart enough to know exactly what I meant.

I like the Onion's headline: Ron DeSantis Clarifies That 'Monkey' Comment Was Intended As Subtle Enough Dog Whistle To Get Away With

And because nobody can make this shyte up, the always dopey and divisive Laura "Shut Up And Dribble" Ingraham said it's DeSantis should be demanding an apology from Gillum.

As usual, white men just can't catch a break here in 'Merica.

[Jockey]

Thanks, TAMU. Lenny is smart enough to know exactly what I meant.

I like the Onion's headline: Ron DeSantis Clarifies That 'Monkey' Comment Was Intended As Subtle Enough Dog Whistle To Get Away With

And because nobody can make this shyte up, the always dopey and divisive Laura "Shut Up And Dribble" Ingraham said it's DeSantis should be demanding an apology from Gillum.

As usual, white men just can't catch a break here in 'Merica.

Mike, your "shut up and dribble" reference brought to mind a new show on HBO. It's hosted by John Stewart and is called The Shop - simply because it takes place in a barbershop. Future episodes will take place in barbershops around the country.

The 1st episode had Lebron, Draymond, Snoop, OBJ, Michael Bennett and a few others discussing race in America. It should be required watching for every American. If you get a chance to watch it, let me know what you think.

[MU82]

Mike, your "shut up and dribble" reference brought to mind a new show on HBO. It's hosted by John Stewart and is called The Shop - simply because it takes place in a barbershop. Future episodes will take place in barbershops around the country.

The 1st episode had Lebron, Draymond, Snoop, OBJ, Michael Bennett and a few others discussing race in America. It should be required watching for every American. If you get a chance to watch it, let me know what you think.

Saw that it was on but haven't had a chance to watch it yet. I will.

[brewcity77]

I like the Onion's headline: Ron DeSantis Clarifies That 'Monkey' Comment Was Intended As Subtle Enough Dog Whistle To Get Away With"

While it's meant to be satire, I think that's actually the true intent. DeSantis doesn't want to talk about issues because that's a losing argument. Instead, make a racially charged statement, deny the racial intent, drag the whole campaign into a discussion on race rather that things to actually improve the lives of Floridians. It's the same thing the White House has been doing for 2 years. Say something racist, deny it was supposed to be racist, and the entire discussion turns from the issues at hand to "is it racist?" Then they never get back to the actual issue.

FWIW, Gillum responded perfectly. Watch from about the 6:00 mark. Address the topic, call it what it is, pivot back to the issues that impact his voters.

https://youtu.be/12OgIezJK1s

[WarriorDad]

You brought it in with your distinctions of better people. And the Post is far from perfect.

Jockey articulated my point well, but it goes further than that. While the criticisms of character are applied generally to blacks & mental illness applied generally to whites, using mental illness as a general scapegoat stigmatizes the tens of millions of Americans that struggle with real mental illness every year.

Both the media and populace create an image of the mentally ill as deranged killers. This does undue harm to people suffering with anxiety, depression, addiction, bi-polar disorder, and countless other conditions that don't want to hurt anyone.

Words are important. Whether it's on a message board or the Washington Post or everyday conversation, it's important to use the correct words. It's often unintentional, but we should all work to do better.

Facts are also important.  The man that shot up the Madden tournament was mentally ill, which is what I stated.  Has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with race.  If someone of a different race also shot up the Madden tournament and had his history of mental illness, I would have said the same thing. 

[WarriorDad]

But really, if you believe that saying "monkey" was an accident, he has some swampland in Florida to sell you, too.

I read the entire quote, I do not think there was any malice there. No history either.  Some people go looking for stuff and for good reason at times.  This isn't one of them.

If I had a nickel every time my parents said to stop monkeying around, or similar terms.  It meant stop screwing around in my day. I will be the first to condemn him if that was intention or meant the way some are saying.  Or if a history exists, but on the surface this feels like major backfire to me for those pushing this.

The last people in America who need to worry about hurt feelings are white cis males like me.

Certainly not white guys like me. We've never had it bad in America.

Without looking it up, what does that mean?

Careful not to speak for an entire group of people.  Individuals of all stripes can incur the ravages of man. 

[WarriorDad]

Constant appeal to authority. Someone else used to do this all the time

This place is a forum of the impossible.  MU82 demands facts or backup.  That is provided, now you condemn it.  Would you two get on the same page.   

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Individuals of all stripes can incur the ravages of man.

Is that the inscription on the gates at your White Lives Matter Ranch in Idaho?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Only 2 choices? So Biden is also either a racist or a moron. You wouldn't assume Obama would choose a moron for vice president because that would be racist. But if you assume Obama chose a racist as his VP wouldn't that assumption also be racist? It's a tangled web we weave when every utterance has to be filtered through the thought police.

IMO Biden is neither, but man, he is a human gaffe machine.

[naginiF]

I read the entire quote, I do not think there was any malice there. No history either. Some people go looking for stuff and for good reason at times.  This isn't one of them.

If I had a nickel every time my parents said to stop monkeying around, or similar terms.  It meant stop screwing around in my day. I will be the first to condemn him if that was intention or meant the way some are saying.  Or if a history exists, but on the surface this feels like major backfire to me for those pushing this.

Without looking it up, what does that mean?

Careful not to speak for an entire group of people.  Individuals of all stripes can incur the ravages of man.

Ton of history an association.....

UUggghh! I actually had to log into Facebook to look into this - it's been at least 2 years since i've done so and i'm going to have a cocktail after this (actually...maybe 'thank you'?).

There were reports that he was an administrator to this excruciatingly stereotypical alt-right Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/DoNotTreadOnUs/.  He's not a current administrator and I didn't see any instance of him posting so may be false.  However, Mike Michaels who is the first admin listed has stated that he is an admin on the page https://twitter.com/natijomartinez/status/1034422749949833216/photo/1.

My guess is that the page members love DeSantis (just search his name on the page, it's clear they do)and that lead to MM bragging he was an admin regardless of if he was or not.  Smoke but no fire.

Edit:  He was an administrator of that site up until two days ago......therefore must definitely a strong history of racist actions.  Also, there are 7 other candidates for house/senate seats that are (5) or up until recently were (2) administrators for this page.  That speaks volumes to the positioning for winning in November

[brewcity77]

Facts are also important.  The man that shot up the Madden tournament was mentally ill, which is what I stated.  Has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with race.  If someone of a different race also shot up the Madden tournament and had his history of mental illness, I would have said the same thing.

Maybe if you hadn't stereotyped shooters in Chicago as inferior, you could pull this off. But when you open with that, it's hard to believe this is an ingenuous take.

Without looking it up, what does that mean?

Careful not to speak for an entire group of people.  Individuals of all stripes can incur the ravages of man. 

What does what mean? Cis? It means identifying as the gender you were assigned at birth.

And my statement was not about individuals, it was about white men in general, who as a general segment of the population have never faced oppression in this country.