Program trajectory and wojo

[muguru]

Doubtful. They won this season. A lot. Enough to finish 2nd in conference and get a 5 seed in the tourney.

Yet all you've done is whine since the season ended.

So, somehow I don't believe you now.

They didn't win enough for MY liking. I'm entitled to that. Just because a lot of people here have low expectations for where they THINK MU can get to, doesn't mean  we all have to share that same opinion.

I needed something...anything to wipe away the bad taste I had in my mouth from the epic collapse and failure to win the BE, a win of a 12 seeded Mid Major would have gone a long way...but alas.

[mviale]

Its been a slow run, but wojo had to rebuild a team in tatters
2013-13 Buzz left us dry at 17-15 and finished with 4 game losing streak
2014-15, Buzz team finished under WOJO 13-19
2015-16 Ellenson comes on 20-13
2016-17, Ellenson leaves and start over at finish 19-13 and get to 1st round NCAA
2017-18, deserve NCAA bid but make small run in NIT finish 21-14
2018-19,  3 years of building with Hauser and Howard, start season 23-4 and end 24-10.

[Cheeks]

They didn't win enough for MY liking. I'm entitled to that. Just because a lot of people here have low expectations for where they THINK MU can get to, doesn't mean  we all have to share that same opinion.

I needed something...anything to wipe away the bad taste I had in my mouth from the epic collapse and failure to win the BE, a win of a 12 seeded Mid Major would have gone a long way...but alas.

We don’t have low expectations, we have realistic expectations. 

[muguru]

We don’t have low expectations, we have realistic expectations.

Mine are realistic..MU isnt some mid major like I think a lot of this fan base thinks they are..you think Loyola fans ever thought they'd  see a Final Four? Or Butler fans? Let alone back to back final fours. Hell id bet anything Villanova fans never dreamed of winning 2 National Championships in 3 years let alone 1. I guarantee you Wisconsin fans never thought they'd see a Final Four..they played for a Championship.

And you know what Marquette has on every single one of those schools? A much more storied tradition and history..a budget that not many others can speak of..they are FAR AND away on a level that those others could only dream of having from a tradition stand point..so i get tired of people saying MU cant be amongst the elite in CBB regularly..they can be...they CAN win a National Champ again..if not multiple..i wish the administration felt that way however..Marquette is SUPPOSED to be a basketball power..an elite..i wish people involved that make decisions realized that and acted as such.

[Cheeks]

Mine are realistic..MU isnt some mid major like I think a lot of this fan base thinks they are..you think Loyola fans ever thought they'd  see a Final Four? Or Butler fans? Let alone back to back final fours. Hell id bet anything Villanova fans never dreamed of winning 2 National Championships in 3 years let alone 1. I guarantee you Wisconsin fans never thought they'd see a Final Four..they played for a Championship.

And you know what Marquette has on every single one of those schools? A much more storied tradition and history..a budget that not many others can speak of..they are FAR AND away on a level that those others could only dream of having from a tradition stand point..so i get tired of people saying MU cant be amongst the elite in CBB regularly..they can be...they CAN win a National Champ again..if not multiple..i wish the administration felt that way however..Marquette is SUPPOSED to be a basketball power..an elite..i wish people involved that make decisions realized that and acted as such.

MU didn’t have a more storied history than Villanova....more of a push than anything.

I’m sorry, but we were elite for about 8 years out of 100.  In my mind there are maybe 5 or 6 elite programs, and right now Indiana and UCLA aren’t on the list.  By your logic Army football should be elite because of a great run for a specific time period. 

I think we can be very good consistently, and yes even win it all if things line up properly....and that means being a little lucky.   You mentioned Loyola....they were in Virginia’s bracket.  Their trip to the Final Four meant not facing the 1 or 2 seeds because they were both knocked out ahead of time.  That is part of the luck and crapshoot nature of the tournament...they didn’t control that, it was luck that the bracket opened up for them.

I’m being pragmatic, but also optimistic that it can happen.  Stability is needed, something we don’t have and every time you and others want to reset the damn clock, you make us unstable again.  Take a look at the teams that usually get to the Final Four and win it all....teams coached by guys that have been around a long time and often at that school for a long time.

We lack patience, and the ability for our guys to grow into in my opinion.  Most of the coaches that win it all also have had plenty of crap burgers along the way, just do the research. 

[Cheeks]

Mine are realistic..MU isnt some mid major like I think a lot of this fan base thinks they are..you think Loyola fans ever thought they'd  see a Final Four? Or Butler fans? Let alone back to back final fours. Hell id bet anything Villanova fans never dreamed of winning 2 National Championships in 3 years let alone 1. I guarantee you Wisconsin fans never thought they'd see a Final Four..they played for a Championship.

And you know what Marquette has on every single one of those schools? A much more storied tradition and history..a budget that not many others can speak of..they are FAR AND away on a level that those others could only dream of having from a tradition stand point..so i get tired of people saying MU cant be amongst the elite in CBB regularly..they can be...they CAN win a National Champ again..if not multiple..i wish the administration felt that way however..Marquette is SUPPOSED to be a basketball power..an elite..i wish people involved that make decisions realized that and acted as such.

Is Kentucky elite?   They have won ONE title the last 20 years...but you think we can win a couple.

Is Kansas elite?  They have won ONE title the last 30 years.  Is Indiana?  One title 30+ years.

Is UCLA elite?  They have won ONE title the last 40+ years.

I think my case is rested.  I’m being pragmatic and anything can happen

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Mine are realistic..MU isnt some mid major like I think a lot of this fan base thinks they are..you think Loyola fans ever thought they'd  see a Final Four? Or Butler fans? Let alone back to back final fours. Hell id bet anything Villanova fans never dreamed of winning 2 National Championships in 3 years let alone 1. I guarantee you Wisconsin fans never thought they'd see a Final Four..they played for a Championship.

And you know what Marquette has on every single one of those schools? A much more storied tradition and history..a budget that not many others can speak of..they are FAR AND away on a level that those others could only dream of having from a tradition stand point..so i get tired of people saying MU cant be amongst the elite in CBB regularly..they can be...they CAN win a National Champ again..if not multiple..i wish the administration felt that way however..Marquette is SUPPOSED to be a basketball power..an elite..i wish people involved that make decisions realized that and acted as such.

I think the Villanova program trumps ours, no shame in that I think they are top 10 all time. I think we are more like top 20 top 25.

Unfortunately, the reason we are in the top 20-25 of programs is because of what we did over 40 years ago.  We were a blue blood and a series of bad hires and decisions slowly led us to the crater that was the Dukiet years. KO started the resurgence, Deane took us a step back, Crean rebounded from Deane's mistakes, Buzz built on what Crean started until he didn't. Now Wojo is tasked with bringing us back to the level we were at during Buzz' peak. I think we are getting there. Once he does, he will need to build on it.

Programs can tumble very quickly. The fall from Blue Blood to Dukiet only took 12 years. The closest we've been to blue blood status since was Buzz' 4th and 5th years. It took us 24 years and 4 coaches to get to that point and frankly Buzz' peak was nothing compared to what we were. Building a program takes time, patience, and features many missteps along the way. One day, we are going to find the coach that views Marquette as a destination job, sees that being a blue blood is possible here, and has the chops to pull it off. I don't know if Wojo is that guy or if he's just another Crean, a guy who can rebuild a program from a temporary setback but take it no higher. If that's the case, he will eventually be let go or encouraged to move on and we will need to find a coach like Buzz, who can take what a previous coach did and build on it...but hopefully with more stability and permanency.

Don't set your goals too small. Knocking off a 12 seed in the first round is meaningless when it comes to building a program. A final four is just a fart in the wind if not supported by consistent success. You mention  Loyola and Butler. Would you really be satisfied as a fan if the peak of your program's success was an appearance or two and you never reached those heights again? I want blue blood status again, not a couple of Round of 32 and Sweet 16 appearances.

It sounds like you want blue blood status back too. That's good. That's what the administration wants as well. We should not be content until we are there (though let's be real, we won't be, we will always want more). But to get there, you need to play the long game and see the big picture. Don't throw away progress because you want to throw a temper tanturm over not winning enough first round tournament games for your liking. It's a long road, do you have the stomach for it?

[jesmu84]

Mine are realistic..MU isnt some mid major like I think a lot of this fan base thinks they are..you think Loyola fans ever thought they'd  see a Final Four? Or Butler fans? Let alone back to back final fours. Hell id bet anything Villanova fans never dreamed of winning 2 National Championships in 3 years let alone 1. I guarantee you Wisconsin fans never thought they'd see a Final Four..they played for a Championship.

And you know what Marquette has on every single one of those schools? A much more storied tradition and history..a budget that not many others can speak of..they are FAR AND away on a level that those others could only dream of having from a tradition stand point..so i get tired of people saying MU cant be amongst the elite in CBB regularly..they can be...they CAN win a National Champ again..if not multiple..i wish the administration felt that way however..Marquette is SUPPOSED to be a basketball power..an elite..i wish people involved that make decisions realized that and acted as such.

Tradition and history from 40 years ago is not at all relevant to success in the present.

Also, Loyola? A flash in the pan? I thought you wanted consistent success

[Galway Eagle]

Mine are realistic..MU isnt some mid major like I think a lot of this fan base thinks they are..you think Loyola fans ever thought they'd  see a Final Four? Or Butler fans? Let alone back to back final fours. Hell id bet anything Villanova fans never dreamed of winning 2 National Championships in 3 years let alone 1. I guarantee you Wisconsin fans never thought they'd see a Final Four..they played for a Championship.

And you know what Marquette has on every single one of those schools? A much more storied tradition and history..a budget that not many others can speak of..they are FAR AND away on a level that those others could only dream of having from a tradition stand point..so i get tired of people saying MU cant be amongst the elite in CBB regularly..they can be...they CAN win a National Champ again..if not multiple..i wish the administration felt that way however..Marquette is SUPPOSED to be a basketball power..an elite..i wish people involved that make decisions realized that and acted as such.

Prior to our slide and novas jump our traditions were a wash at best or slight edge to them. Know your history before jumping to conclusions.

[muguru]

I think the Villanova program trumps ours, no shame in that I think they are top 10 all time. I think we are more like top 20 top 25.

Unfortunately, the reason we are in the top 20-25 of programs is because of what we did over 40 years ago.  We were a blue blood and a series of bad hires and decisions slowly led us to the crater that was the Dukiet years. KO started the resurgence, Deane took us a step back, Crean rebounded from Deane's mistakes, Buzz built on what Crean started until he didn't. Now Wojo is tasked with bringing us back to the level we were at during Buzz' peak. I think we are getting there. Once he does, he will need to build on it.

Programs can tumble very quickly. The fall from Blue Blood to Dukiet only took 12 years. The closest we've been to blue blood status since was Buzz' 4th and 5th years. It took us 24 years and 4 coaches to get to that point and frankly Buzz' peak was nothing compared to what we were. Building a program takes time, patience, and features many missteps along the way. One day, we are going to find the coach that views Marquette as a destination job, sees that being a blue blood is possible here, and has the chops to pull it off. I don't know if Wojo is that guy or if he's just another Crean, a guy who can rebuild a program from a temporary setback but take it no higher. If that's the case, he will eventually be let go or encouraged to move on and we will need to find a coach like Buzz, who can take what a previous coach did and build on it...but hopefully with more stability and permanency.

Don't set your goals too small. Knocking off a 12 seed in the first round is meaningless when it comes to building a program. A final four is just a fart in the wind if not supported by consistent success. You mention  Loyola and Butler. Would you really be satisfied as a fan if the peak of your program's success was an appearance or two and you never reached those heights again? I want blue blood status again, not a couple of Round of 32 and Sweet 16 appearances.

It sounds like you want blue blood status back too. That's good. That's what the administration wants as well. We should not be content until we are there (though let's be real, we won't be, we will always want more). But to get there, you need to play the long game and see the big picture. Don't throw away progress because you want to throw a temper tanturm over not winning enough first round tournament games for your liking. It's a long road, do you have the stomach for it?

Stomach, maybe...time left on this earth?? Questionable.

[muguru]

Prior to our slide and novas jump our traditions were a wash at best or slight edge to them. Know your history before jumping to conclusions.

I was referring more towards UW, Loyola and Butler. I know about Nova's tradition.

[Cheeks]

I was referring more towards UW, Loyola and Butler. I know about Nova's tradition.

Then why did you say MU has something on EVERY single one of those programs you mentioned?

[Goose]

Many folks on here, myself included, very much enjoyed the Buzz style of play, type of player and the on court success they had, but MU admin/BOT did not have the stomach to continue in the manner Buzz was building his program. I have said many times over, that is their right, I get it an do not completely disagree with their thought process. Possibly the complete change of program style has taken away folks wanting to stomach a long overhaul.

Years ago I said MU should have made it perfectly clear they type of program they were going to run and expectations of that program. Basically, they continue to sell the premise they want to be elite. That is great, how long did they that would take? Has that time table changed? What do they consider elite? I think MU continues to live with their head in the sand hoping the alumni will continue to have the stomach for waiting for success.

Lastly, I do not think there is a consensus of what an elite program looks like on here. MU should provide an outline on how they determine program success and share with the faithful that support the program. At that point, some might have the stomach for it and some might not.

[Marcus92]

Tradition matters, but only to an extent.

Eight Division I men's basketball programs have 3 or more national titles: UCLA (11), Kentucky (8), North Carolina (6), Duke (5), Indiana (5), Connecticut (4), Kansas (3) and Villanova (3).

What's tradition doing for Indiana and Connecticut these days? If tradition was all-important, the Hoosiers and Huskies would still be dominating -- instead of missing 3 straight NCAA tournaments. Neither program has yet to find a head coach who can build on what Bobby Knight and Jim Calhoun accomplished.

What was UConn's tradition before Calhoun arrived on campus? Or Florida's before Billy Donovan? Arizona's before Lute Olsen? Georgetown's before John Thompson?

Successful head coaches create their own tradition of winning.

[Pakuni]

Mine are realistic..MU isnt some mid major like I think a lot of this fan base thinks they are

Literally no one here thinks MU is a mid-major.

[Eldon]

Many folks on here, myself included, very much enjoyed the Buzz style of play, type of player and the on court success they had, but MU admin/BOT did not have the stomach to continue in the manner Buzz was building his program. I have said many times over, that is their right, I get it an do not completely disagree with their thought process. Possibly the complete change of program style has taken away folks wanting to stomach a long overhaul.

Years ago I said MU should have made it perfectly clear they type of program they were going to run and expectations of that program. Basically, they continue to sell the premise they want to be elite. That is great, how long did they that would take? Has that time table changed? What do they consider elite? I think MU continues to live with their head in the sand hoping the alumni will continue to have the stomach for waiting for success.

Lastly, I do not think there is a consensus of what an elite program looks like on here. MU should provide an outline on how they determine program success and share with the faithful that support the program. At that point, some might have the stomach for it and some might not.

This is an insightful post.

How much of this is the BOT and how much of it is the president?

I ask because the BOT of a university is largely made up of alums who are in the private sector, while the president is an academic. What I'm getting at is that the president swims in a different sea, and hence has different priorities, different definition of 'elite', etc.

[MUBurrow]

What's tradition doing for Indiana and Connecticut these days? If tradition was all-important, the Hoosiers and Huskies would still be dominating -- instead of missing 3 straight NCAA tournaments. Neither program has yet to find a head coach who can build on what Bobby Knight and Jim Calhoun accomplished.

sanctions sanctions sanctions sanctions sanctions sanctions

[Pakuni]

sanctions sanctions sanctions sanctions sanctions sanctions

Indiana has been off probation for eight years. Can't really use the "sanctions" excuse for them anymore.
I mean, Oregon currently is on probation and they're in better shape than IU. Louisville made the tournament this year while on probation. Syracuse made a Final Four while on probation a few years ago.

[MU82]

I think the Villanova program trumps ours, no shame in that I think they are top 10 all time. I think we are more like top 20 top 25.

Unfortunately, the reason we are in the top 20-25 of programs is because of what we did over 40 years ago.  We were a blue blood and a series of bad hires and decisions slowly led us to the crater that was the Dukiet years. KO started the resurgence, Deane took us a step back, Crean rebounded from Deane's mistakes, Buzz built on what Crean started until he didn't. Now Wojo is tasked with bringing us back to the level we were at during Buzz' peak. I think we are getting there. Once he does, he will need to build on it.

Programs can tumble very quickly. The fall from Blue Blood to Dukiet only took 12 years. The closest we've been to blue blood status since was Buzz' 4th and 5th years. It took us 24 years and 4 coaches to get to that point and frankly Buzz' peak was nothing compared to what we were. Building a program takes time, patience, and features many missteps along the way. One day, we are going to find the coach that views Marquette as a destination job, sees that being a blue blood is possible here, and has the chops to pull it off. I don't know if Wojo is that guy or if he's just another Crean, a guy who can rebuild a program from a temporary setback but take it no higher. If that's the case, he will eventually be let go or encouraged to move on and we will need to find a coach like Buzz, who can take what a previous coach did and build on it...but hopefully with more stability and permanency.

Don't set your goals too small. Knocking off a 12 seed in the first round is meaningless when it comes to building a program. A final four is just a fart in the wind if not supported by consistent success. You mention  Loyola and Butler. Would you really be satisfied as a fan if the peak of your program's success was an appearance or two and you never reached those heights again? I want blue blood status again, not a couple of Round of 32 and Sweet 16 appearances.

It sounds like you want blue blood status back too. That's good. That's what the administration wants as well. We should not be content until we are there (though let's be real, we won't be, we will always want more). But to get there, you need to play the long game and see the big picture. Don't throw away progress because you want to throw a temper tanturm over not winning enough first round tournament games for your liking. It's a long road, do you have the stomach for it?

Love love love this post. TAMU, you are on fire.

[Goose]

Eldon

From the little I know, there has been a difference of opinion in the BOT over the ball program. It appears that the one consensus among the BOT is that all agree the program pays a lot of bills. For a university that counts on basketball paying some bills, it seems to lack anyone with basketball knowledge on their current BOT. On the bright side, the President of MU is a big sports fan and gets on the court for every home game, but not sure if that translate to us becoming elite again.

[MUBurrow]

Indiana has been off probation for eight years. Can't really use the "sanctions" excuse for them anymore.
I mean, Oregon currently is on probation and they're in better shape than IU. Louisville made the tournament this year while on probation. Syracuse made a Final Four while on probation a few years ago.

I agree its probably getting a little stale, but the post-Sampson penalties absolutely crippled that program. In addition to the probate, it was the loss of scholarships IIRC. Crean was running walkons out there for a number of years.  If you threw those at a top program like Duke or UNC, they would take a decade to recover too. (Heck, we may get the chance to see how all that plays out with KU).

[Pakuni]

I agree its probably getting a little stale, but the post-Sampson penalties absolutely crippled that program. In addition to the probate, it was the loss of scholarships IIRC. Crean was running walkons out there for a number of years.  If you threw those at a top program like Duke or UNC, they would take a decade to recover too. (Heck, we may get the chance to see how all that plays out with KU).

Things definitely got ugly for a couple of years, but after all that happened, Crean was able to bring in some top-ranked kids like Watford, Zeller, Farrell, Vonleh, Blackmon, etc. His 2012 and 13 classes were ranked 7th and 4th in the country, respectively.

[MUBurrow]

Things definitely got ugly for a couple of years, but after all that happened, Crean was able to bring in some top-ranked kids like Watford, Zeller, Farrell, Vonleh, Blackmon, etc. His 2012 and 13 classes were ranked 7th and 4th in the country, respectively.

Which is the perfect counter to the "what's tradition doing for Indiana these days?" - tradition enables a program to overcome being a heartbeat from the death penalty (allows the program to avoid more dire penalties, honestly) and pull T-10 recruiting classes within 5 years with a middling head coach.

[vogue65]

Love love love this post. TAMU, you are on fire.

Ha, first,  the term "blue blood" was coined by Al McGuire.  He never claimed Marquette was a blue blood.  He gave up coaching for a number of reasons.  Publically the reason  was that he felt he could no longer get the recruits, no details given.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.   

[Cheeks]

TAMU, good stuff.  My only quibble, we were never a blueblood, at least not the definition I use.  We had a special, elite run for about a decade.  Blue bloods do it for decades, and we have not had that consistency.

We are a proud, very good program with rich history but not a blue blood, not elite in my opinion.