De ja vu - was arguing with Auburn fans on how stupid it would be to fire pearl

[fjm]

Great OP and great posts all around.

I don’t see any reason to even consider firing Wojo. Unless people are cool with rebuilding and changing the path of the program. Then hey, another 3-4 years of “who knows” is what you’re into.

[fjm]

And rebuilding in a different way, more like a remake.  He has done his part, and exceeded it many of us, except for the end to the season.  Disappointing end, no doubt.   You can judge on that, I'll judge and the powers that be will judge on a much bigger picture.

Rebuild is over.  Culture is back to what is expected by the powers that run things.  That alone is a big deal to those in charge.

Barring major defections, we will have a solid to great team next year.  So, to me, the off season is going to be really important.

Some here would have fired most of the current top coaches at some point, it seems. Does muguru apply this standard to his own success in life and those that work for him/her?

This guy gets it.

[muguru]

Great OP and great posts all around.

I don’t see any reason to even consider firing Wojo. Unless people are cool with rebuilding and changing the path of the program. Then hey, another 3-4 years of “who knows” is what you’re into.

Everyone ASSUMES it would be a rebuild. I disagree..Sam would stay which means Joey would stay, and if Markus came back..You're set. Fill in the missing pieces with transfers and let's go.

[MU82]

Everyone ASSUMES it would be a rebuild. I disagree..Sam would stay which means Joey would stay, and if Markus came back..You're set. Fill in the missing pieces with transfers and let's go.

It's a cool theory.

But Wojo isn't going anywhere, something you don't seem to want to accept.

Illogical, non-reality-based speculation is fun. In many ways, it's one of the big reasons these kinds of sites exist. But to go 'round and 'round (and 'round and 'round) about something that simply is not going to happen ... it gets exhausting.

We might as well speculate on how good we'll be if Few leaves Gonzaga for Marquette, retains all of our talent, brings over a few of his Zag studs (who get transfer-rule waivers and are allowed to play for us next season), and adds three 5-star recruits.

It's a blast to consider ... it would be really, really cool if Mark Few is our coach for 2019-20... but it's got as much chance of happening as Wojo being fired this offseason.

Zero-point-zero-zero percent.

I don't think Wojo should have been fired after this past season. You do. Cool! Reality: He will be our coach next season.

But sure, guru, speculate away!

[muguru]

It's a cool theory.

But Wojo isn't going anywhere, something you don't seem to want to accept.

Illogical, non-reality-based speculation is fun. In many ways, it's one of the big reasons these kinds of sites exist. But to go 'round and 'round (and 'round and 'round) about something that simply is not going to happen ... it gets exhausting.

We might as well speculate on how good we'll be if Few leaves Gonzaga for Marquette, retains all of our talent, brings over a few of his Zag studs (who get transfer-rule waivers and are allowed to play for us next season), and adds three 5-star recruits.

It's a blast to consider ... it would be really, really cool if Mark Few is our coach for 2019-20... but it's got as much chance of happening as Wojo being fired this offseason.

Zero-point-zero-zero percent.

I don't think Wojo should have been fired after this past season. You do. Cool! Reality: He will be our coach next season.

But sure, guru, speculate away!

Well, I'm just tired of so many here thinking he's some coaching genius and needs to be kept at all costs. Newsflash...he's average, at best.

I'm curious MU82, though I already think I know your answer...with what is projected to be his best team at MU(we heard that this year too and how did that turn out) this coming year, what will be the MINIMUM achievement they could have before you would agree 100% he needs to be gone. I'm curious to know your answer(though I'm guessing, regardless you won't want him gone after next year either).

[4everwarriors]

Wee all bee judgin' and dat's hour write, since itz five years and such, aina?

[Billy Hoyle]

What about all the shenanigans off the court for Pearl and losing two assistant coaches while at Auburn after his own suspension? He's not going anywhere now unless the NCAA steps in again, but how do the fans down there view all that stuff?

It's the SEC: If you're not cheating you're not trying.

Amazing to think that in a game Cal coached he was not the dirtiest coach on the court.

[Pakuni]

Well, I'm just tired of so many here thinking he's some coaching gfenius and needs to be kept at all costs. Newsflash...he's average, at best.

Nobody has actually said this, much less "so many here."

[StillAWarrior]

Well, I'm just tired of so many here thinking he's some coaching gfenius and needs to be kept at all costs. Newsflash...he's average, at best.

I probably haven't read all these threads as closely as you, but I honestly don't recall seeing a single post arguing that Wojo is a coaching genius (or "gfenius" for that matter).  Not one.

[Herman Cain]

Wee all bee judgin' and dat's hour write, since itz five years and such, aina?

Yes. Evaluation based on performance to date. Each year stands on its own.

[HutchwasClutch]

The whole premise of this thread ignores a significant and indisputable point, that is Pearl had big time success at two schools with little tradition of basketball success before Auburn!!  Pearl came into Auburn  with a very strong track record that should have  earned many benefits of the doubt, especially early in his tenure.

What is Wojo’s track record of success prior to MU?  Nothing, first shot at running his own program as we all well know.  Coach K’s coaching tree has not been very strong either at churning out coaches with success at high D1 programs, further adding to skepticism of many.

Comparing patience that should be afforded he and Pearl is a ridiculous argument.

And while I’m very down myself on Wojo, I probably would not fire him this offseason. I’d give him one more chance with next year’s group, which hopefully returns intact.

[muguru]

Nobody has actually said this, much less "so many here."

And yet you and so many others want to keep an average at best BB Coach at Marquette. If it's not because you think he's a great Coach, then it has to be because you all fear the unknown. You have no idea what a new Coach may or may not bring to the table, and you are all also deathly afraid of losing transfers.

1. If MU moved on from Wojo and they brought in an EXPERIENCED Head Coach, I'd bet large sums of $$ the results would be no worse than equal to, but most likely better then what Wojo's 5 years have been.

2. A New Coach does not guarantee a bunch of transfers. Besides, if the right one's stayed, it's not that big of a deal.

[brewcity77]

Beard has built this roster heavily dependent on transfers and under the radar recruits.  There is a huge luck component to getting a kid like Jarrett Culver.  A Texas kid ranked in the 300s nationally.   Two years later, Culver is a likely lottery pick.

I'm not so sure it's luck. Beard is a unicorn, sort of like the Zion of coaches. The kind of coach that comes around once in a generation or so. It's easy to call Culver a lucky find, but he was in the same recruiting class as Zhaire Smith, who was a kid in the 300s that Beard turned into a one-and-done first round pick. I can't think of many coaches who unearth talent like Beard has, can win with both his guys & the guys he inherits, he's just an amazing coach. It's easy to say "why can't we find a guy like Beard" but I'd say the simple answer is there really aren't any other guys like Chris Beard. Who even compares? Ollie? Does anyone want him (apparently not, he's unemployed)? Tubby's start at Kentucky with Pitino's guys? How is that working out for him at High Point?

Guys like that are really rare. Generally, you hire a coach, give them a few years to show they can have some sentinel moments (I'd argue our top-10 earlier this year is the best indicator of that) then hope they continue to grow into the role. Having looked deeper at title winning coaches of this generation, I believe the best way to go is to get a coach that has shown he can win already. Guys like K, Wright, Calhoun, & Pitino all cut their teeth at small schools, honed their sideline acumen, then went to larger jobs. The drawback to someone like Wojo is he is learning the sideline stuff on the job. If you are going to hire an assistant who's never been a head coach, it's going to take longer to develop a consistent winner.

Wojo has shown what he can develop and has shown he can spot talent. Watching guys like Coffey, Winston, Tillman, Nwora, French, and others we've offered, it's pretty clear they aren't throwing many scholarship offers to guys that can't play. He's shown that his offense and defense can work given the players. He's shown that he can elevate the program to the top-10. He's also shown that he clearly isn't a finished product and isn't among the basketball elite yet. Maybe he'll get there. Maybe he won't. But he's just getting to the point where he has the experience & roster makeup to show if he can.

If not, I'd look at someone who's shown they can win at a smaller program. Craig Smith at Utah State, Wes Miller at UNC Greensboro, maybe Wardle, or if you really want to shoot for the stars, Mike Hopkins at Washington. You can always hire assistants to recruit, but I would want a guy who's proven they can instill toughness & a winning culture.

[MU82]

Well, I'm just tired of so many here thinking he's some coaching genius and needs to be kept at all costs. Newsflash...he's average, at best.

I'm curious MU82, though I already think I know your answer...with what is projected to be his best team at MU(we heard that this year too and how did that turn out) this coming year, what will be the MINIMUM achievement they could have before you would agree 100% he needs to be gone. I'm curious to know your answer(though I'm guessing, regardless you won't want him gone after next year either).

First, I do not know of a single Scooper, and certainly not me, who has ever said Wojo is "some coaching genius and needs to be kept at all costs." I appreciate hyperbole as much as the next guy, but that's hyperbole on speed with a coke chaser.

Second, guru, you already asked me that exact question in one of the Murray State postmortem threads, when you were really off your meds, and I already answered it. But here goes again ...

I said that barring some crazy-horrible circumstance (i.e, Sam or Markus suffers season-ending injury, and another key player transfers) I would expect Wojo to build upon the good work he has done. That means seriously contending for the conference title, making the NCAAs and being competitive in the tournament. I also would be disappointed if he doesn't seal the deal on several top recruits (including Torrence).

You have some incorrect idea of where I stand on Wojo. I don't know him, I have no relationship with him, and I don't think he is a coaching genius. If he can't do the job, I want my alma mater to bring in a coach who can. So far, he has shown me that he is capable of recruiting well, improving as a coach and making our program very competitive. And his trajectory (I know you hate that word) has been positive. When that stops, I will have no problem with bringing somebody else in.

Like so many others here, I am as big a Warrior fan as you are, but I also am a pretty realistic guy. Newsflash, guru ... We aren't getting Bennett, Pitino or Sampson.

You seem to think that proven high-major winners (who aren't weighed down by a ton of baggage) would be clamoring for this job if Wojo were fired.

Well, when Buzz left, two coaches with significant high-major experience all but begged for the job -- Bob Howland and Cuonzo Martin. I'm glad we didn't hire either of them. Like 95% of the others here, I was hoping we'd get Shaka, but Mrs. Boy Wonder said no and he has gone on to show that his mid-major cred didn't mean much at a good P6 school. Danny Manning also was mentioned after a decent run at Tulsa. You have referred to our outcomes under Wojo as "unmitigated disasters"; well, my friend, Danny Manning actually has been an unmitigated disaster at Wake Forest.

You have waxed poetic about Beard, but I have a feeling that you and others who skew negative 'round these parts won't be overly pleased if we go for some guy from an Arkansas-Little Rock-type school in the future. Nobody knew Beard was "some coaching genius" 3 years ago.

It's hard getting to the Final Four, and I congratulate Beard and the others. As fine a coach as Buzz is, he hasn't gotten there in 11 seasons as a head coach. It took Wright 15 years to get there. It took Beilein 20 years to get there. Huggins got there fairly early; he's been back only once since in 26 years. Bobby Knight -- pretty good coach -- was 0-for-his-last-15. Izzo was an assistant for 12 years before he was even given a chance at the top job. And so on and so on and so on.

So if we're measuring excellence by Final Fours, there is a long list of coaches who were/are/have been unsuccessful for a long time.

Meanwhile, mediocrities like Moser, Ollie and Crean got to the Final Four ... putting the "crap" in crapshoot. One could argue Shaka hasn't been at a much higher level and he got to one, too.

If Tom Crean can coach a team into the Final Four, Wojo can as well. Talk about damning with faint praise.

And if it's determined he can't ... see ya! I'd have absolutely no problem giving him the heave-ho.

[MU82]

If MU moved on from Wojo and they brought in an EXPERIENCED Head Coach, I'd bet large sums of $$ the results would be no worse than equal to, but most likely better then what Wojo's 5 years have been.

And again, Marquette isn't moving on from Wojo, so this "bet" will never be made.

Lots of Scoopers love to throw out hypotheticals, claiming they know exactly what would happen in each such situation, but you are the king of that crowd.

This kind of hypothetical situation can't be proven (or disproven) because it isn't going to happen. Sorry, but I try to deal with known knowns rather than unknown unknowns.

You are free to continue to wager on things that will not happen, though.

Hell, I'd bet large sums of money that if you ever go to Mars, you would still be criticizing whoever is coaching Marquette.

[esotericmindguy]

We’re comparing Wojo to Pearl now? Didn’t pearl win GLCV coach of year twice, horizon coach of the year 3 times  and SEC coach of year once...prior to your conversation? Plus it’s auburn, a football school, they should be happy to have a coach of his caliber. If Marquette is truly a top 30 then the the conversation of firing Wojo is valid. Shouldn’t we have higher standards? Team is soft.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

We’re comparing Wojo to Pearl now? Didn’t pearl win GLCV coach of year twice, horizon coach of the year 3 times  and SEC coach of year once...prior to your conversation? Plus it’s auburn, a football school, they should be happy to have a coach of his caliber. If Marquette is truly a top 30 then the the conversation of firing Wojo is valid. Shouldn’t we have higher standards? Team is soft.

Any school that has a coach other than the Bruce Pearl-types automatically has higher standards.

[muguru]

First, I do not know of a single Scooper, and certainly not me, who has ever said Wojo is "some coaching genius and needs to be kept at all costs." I appreciate hyperbole as much as the next guy, but that's hyperbole on speed with a coke chaser.

Second, guru, you already asked me that exact question in one of the Murray State postmortem threads, when you were really off your meds, and I already answered it. But here goes again ...

I said that barring some crazy-horrible circumstance (i.e, Sam or Markus suffers season-ending injury, and another key player transfers) I would expect Wojo to build upon the good work he has done. That means seriously contending for the conference title, making the NCAAs and being competitive in the tournament. I also would be disappointed if he doesn't seal the deal on several top recruits (including Torrence).

You have some incorrect idea of where I stand on Wojo. I don't know him, I have no relationship with him, and I don't think he is a coaching genius. If he can't do the job, I want my alma mater to bring in a coach who can. So far, he has shown me that he is capable of recruiting well, improving as a coach and making our program very competitive. And his trajectory (I know you hate that word) has been positive. When that stops, I will have no problem with bringing somebody else in.

Like so many others here, I am as big a Warrior fan as you are, but I also am a pretty realistic guy. Newsflash, guru ... We aren't getting Bennett, Pitino or Sampson.

You seem to think that proven high-major winners (who aren't weighed down by a ton of baggage) would be clamoring for this job if Wojo were fired.

Well, when Buzz left, two coaches with significant high-major experience all but begged for the job -- Bob Howland and Cuonzo Martin. I'm glad we didn't hire either of them. Like 95% of the others here, I was hoping we'd get Shaka, but Mrs. Boy Wonder said no and he has gone on to show that his mid-major cred didn't mean much at a good P6 school. Danny Manning also was mentioned after a decent run at Tulsa. You have referred to our outcomes under Wojo as "unmitigated disasters"; well, my friend, Danny Manning actually has been an unmitigated disaster at Wake Forest.

You have waxed poetic about Beard, but I have a feeling that you and others who skew negative 'round these parts won't be overly pleased if we go for some guy from an Arkansas-Little Rock-type school in the future. Nobody knew Beard was "some coaching genius" 3 years ago.

It's hard getting to the Final Four, and I congratulate Beard and the others. As fine a coach as Buzz is, he hasn't gotten there in 11 seasons as a head coach. It took Wright 15 years to get there. It took Beilein 20 years to get there. Huggins got there fairly early; he's been back only once since in 26 years. Bobby Knight -- pretty good coach -- was 0-for-his-last-15. Izzo was an assistant for 12 years before he was even given a chance at the top job. And so on and so on and so on.

So if we're measuring excellence by Final Fours, there is a long list of coaches who were/are/have been unsuccessful for a long time.

Meanwhile, mediocrities like Moser, Ollie and Crean got to the Final Four ... putting the "crap" in crapshoot. One could argue Shaka hasn't been at a much higher level and he got to one, too.

If Tom Crean can coach a team into the Final Four, Wojo can as well. Talk about damning with faint praise.

And if it's determined he can't ... see ya! I'd have absolutely no problem giving him the heave-ho.

The above bolded...in the first part shows that you(and I think several others would agree with you) have terribly low standards/expectations. That's ALL you expect/want from Wojo and this program?? And that's ALL it would take for you to let him keep his job?? Honestly...that makes me sad, that that's how low your expectations are.

The second above bolded part...Making the MU program, COMPETITIVE?? That's it?? What is MU a low major?? Or hell are they DePaul?? Being competitive...is for low major programs(like DePaul) who don't have very high expectations, or haven't even had winning records in years. That too is very sad that you feel that way.

Also...maybe you didn't know this but back when Crean left, Rick Barnes was VERY interested in the MU job. Then again, MU was a much better job back then(better conference, had more success etc), then it is now...that's what saddens me more then anything...thinking about where it was in the not so distant past...and to where it's at now.

As far as my expectations go..yes, I have stated I want them to become Elite, but more than anything win one more National Championship in my lifetime...that being said, you HAVE to get to the tournament(and win when you do get there) in order for that to be possible...so for now, I'd settle for MU just making the tournament every year, and take my chances from there. Yet, that seems to be a struggle for them...Now, I'm sure some would say "making the tourney every year is not being realistic". Not if your DePaul it's not, or not if you are in a conference where your only way in is the auto bid every year, or if your Dayton or someone like that. MU is NOT any of those programs and the standards should be higher. Make the tournament every year...others do it(see Gonzaga, see UW(I just threw up a little bit), save for one year since 2000). ZERO reason MU can't do that.

[Pakuni]

We’re comparing Wojo to Pearl now? Didn’t pearl win GLCV coach of year twice, horizon coach of the year 3 times  and SEC coach of year once...prior to your conversation? Plus it’s auburn, a football school, they should be happy to have a coach of his caliber. If Marquette is truly a top 30 then the the conversation of firing Wojo is valid. Shouldn’t we have higher standards? Team is soft.

I'd like to think Marquette has higher standards than hiring someone of Bruce Pearl's character.
If you wish to be a win-at-all-costs type, that's your choice. But please understand that Marquette's board of trustees does not share your vision, and likely never will. If that's terribly upsetting to you, it could be time to consider why you choose to be a Marquette fan.

[brewcity77]

The above bolded...in the first part shows that you(and I think several others would agree with you) have terribly low standards/expectations. That's ALL you expect/want from Wojo and this program?? And that's ALL it would take for you to let him keep his job?? Honestly...that makes me sad, that that's how low your expectations are.

The second above bolded part...Making the MU program, COMPETITIVE?? That's it?? What is MU a low major?? Or hell are they DePaul?? Being competitive...is for low major programs(like DePaul) who don't have very high expectations, or haven't even had winning records in years. That too is very sad that you feel that way.

You don't become a blue blood overnight. Villanova didn't. Duke didn't. Michigan State didn't. UConn didn't. It takes time, and time requires patience. There's no Samantha to wiggle her nose and turn the Marquette program back to the 1970s. Even in our earlier success this century it took years. Crean got us the big moment, but we stepped back to the NIT the two years after & it was years before we were winning a conference title & going to the second weekend of the tournament. If people thought the trajectory from Crean to Buzz was so great, why did they think we would immediately pick up at that point when the whole thing was torn down and rebuilt again?

[jesmu84]

The above bolded...in the first part shows that you(and I think several others would agree with you) have terribly low standards/expectations. That's ALL you expect/want from Wojo and this program?? And that's ALL it would take for you to let him keep his job?? Honestly...that makes me sad, that that's how low your expectations are.

The second above bolded part...Making the MU program, COMPETITIVE?? That's it?? What is MU a low major?? Or hell are they DePaul?? Being competitive...is for low major programs(like DePaul) who don't have very high expectations, or haven't even had winning records in years. That too is very sad that you feel that way.

Also...maybe you didn't know this but back when Crean left, Rick Barnes was VERY interested in the MU job. Then again, MU was a much better job back then(better conference, had more success etc), then it is now...that's what saddens me more then anything...thinking about where it was in the not so distant past...and to where it's at now.

As far as my expectations go..yes, I have stated I want them to become Elite, but more than anything win one more National Championship in my lifetime...that being said, you HAVE to get to the tournament(and win when you do get there) in order for that to be possible...so for now, I'd settle for MU just making the tournament every year, and take my chances from there. Yet, that seems to be a struggle for them...Now, I'm sure some would say "making the tourney every year is not being realistic". Not if your DePaul it's not, or not if you are in a conference where your only way in is the auto bid every year, or if your Dayton or someone like that. MU is NOT any of those programs and the standards should be higher. Make the tournament every year...others do it(see Gonzaga, see UW(I just threw up a little bit), save for one year since 2000). ZERO reason MU can't do that.

Uh. That's literally what MU82 said as well.

You don't read 95% of the posts you respond to.

[muguru]

Uh. That's literally what MU82 said as well.

You don't read 95% of the posts you respond to.

Apparently, you just take slams at me for NO apparent reason, because you want to and WITHOUT reading what he said...this is what he said...I said that barring some crazy-horrible circumstance (i.e, Sam or Markus suffers season-ending injury, and another key player transfers) I would expect Wojo to build upon the good work he has done. That means seriously contending for the conference title, making the NCAAs and being competitive in the tournament. I also would be disappointed if he doesn't seal the deal on several top recruits (including Torrence).

That was in response to my question of what it would take for him to want Wojo gone after next year...his making the NCAA's was strictly in response to that question...NO where did he say, make the NCAA's EVERY year going forward...NOWHERE...but nice try jes.

[MU82]

Apparently, you just take slams at me for NO apparent reason, because you want to and WITHOUT reading what he said...this is what he said...I said that barring some crazy-horrible circumstance (i.e, Sam or Markus suffers season-ending injury, and another key player transfers) I would expect Wojo to build upon the good work he has done. That means seriously contending for the conference title, making the NCAAs and being competitive in the tournament. I also would be disappointed if he doesn't seal the deal on several top recruits (including Torrence).

That was in response to my question of what it would take for him to want Wojo gone after next year...his making the NCAA's was strictly in response to that question...NO where did he say, make the NCAA's EVERY year going forward...NOWHERE...but nice try jes.

Yes, I think Marquette should make the NCAAs every year, although I allow for one-offs in which it might not happen. For example, I would not have advocated for Buzz to be fired after Year 6, nor would I have advocated for Crean to be fired after the 2003-04 season, nor would I have advocated for K, Cal, Knight, etc, to be fired in the odd years they didn't make the tournament. But yes, generally speaking, I think we should be the kind of program that makes the NCAAs every year.

You didn't ask me about that, though. You asked me about next year, and I answered it ... for the second time ... and then you accused me of not answering a question you didn't ask.

You are exhausting, guru.

[Aughnanure]

I probably haven't read all these threads as closely as you, but I honestly don't recall seeing a single post arguing that Wojo is a coaching genius (or "gfenius" for that matter).  Not one.

This is true. But there are a ton resigned to some idea that losing him would consistute everyone leaving and another need for a rebuild - which is highly in accurate.

Just because the last coaching hire was followed by a complete rebuild does not mean the next one will be. The one before Wojo wasn’t. Many programs are quickly back up running wothin a year or two. This premise that the choice is Keep Wojo or Fall off a Cliff is false.

[muguru]

Yes, I think Marquette should make the NCAAs every year, although I allow for one-offs in which it might not happen. For example, I would not have advocated for Buzz to be fired after Year 6, nor would I have advocated for Crean to be fired after the 2003-04 season, nor would I have advocated for K, Cal, Knight, etc, to be fired in the odd years they didn't make the tournament. But yes, generally speaking, I think we should be the kind of program that makes the NCAAs every year.

You didn't ask me about that, though. You asked me about next year, and I answered it ... for the second time ... and then you accused me of not answering a question you didn't ask.

You are exhausting, guru.

Ummm MU 82, that was in response to jesmu accusing me of not reading your post, he said you stated you thought MU should make the NCAAs every year. That isn't what you said, nor did i ask that. I was pointing it out to jes because he was needlessly slamming me for accusing me of NOT reading something that YOU said, when you never said that...and that's what I pointed out.

He was putting words in your mouth, and I was defending you. Pardon me.

I would also allow for a "one off" of missing the tournament, but that depends on the circumstances of the season(major injuries etc etc). Crean and Buzz had both accomplished enough to that point IMO, that I wasn't happy about it, but gave them some leeway for not making it, Wojo hasn't earned that leeway from me...yet.