MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: GGGG on October 22, 2012, 08:10:32 AM
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I posted this in the "Buzz to UK" thread...and then realized it was in the Superbar. So I thought I would recreate a portion of it here...
I've been thinking a lot lately about ceilings. What is Buzz's ceiling? What is Marquette's ceiling? Is Buzz ever going to be able to get those top recruits? Is he "slick" enough? Is he too brutally honest about breaking player's balls? Top players don't needs to get their balls broken, at least in their eyes. They need to showcase their talents enough to go to the NBA in a year or two.
And what about Marquette's? Does the everyday recruit view us as a more glorified version of Gonzaga? About the same as a Georgetown? Clearly not in the same class as the blue-bloods, but are we even seen in the same light as that next level down?
And if that is the case, are Sweet 16 appearances pretty much the highest level we hope we can consistently achieve? We caught lightning in a bottle with one of the best players in basketball history, and that lead us to the Final Four in 2003. Is that replicable?
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I think you absolutely have to catch lightning in a bottle to have *any* success in the NCAA tournament, but that's the nature of single-elimination tournaments.
In my mind, it's silly to measure the strength of your program by NCAA tournament success because it's so reliant on luck.
On the other hand, the only measure that anyone cares about is NCAA tournament success.
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The recruiting answers will come in the next two years with Looney and Stone. Two recruits who have the potential of being ranked in the top 10. If MU is going to be "glorified" in the next few years, these two potential recruits, along with Taylor, Burton, D.Wilson and McKay onboard, will put MU way over in the "glorified" aspect. MU needs to get one of them. Get both, along with the new recruits and now you are talking program changes.
Recruits have to view MU over Gonzaga and probably under Georgetown in your example, and agree with the next level down comparison. George Mason and VCU make Final Four, yet they are not considered even being close to MU in college b-ball status.
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I think we comfort ourselves by saying it is relying on luck, but honestly is that the case? There are programs that get to the Sweet 16, the Elite 8 and the Final Four on a regular basis. And yeah, you occasionally have other schools that crash the party, but look at last year....UK, Kansas, Louisville, Ohio State.
All of those schools have been to at least four Final Fours in the last 20 years.
The question is are we one of those "other schools?"
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The recruiting answers will come in the next two years with Looney and Stone. Two recruits who have the potential of being ranked in the top 10. If MU is going to be "glorified" in the next few years, these two potential recruits, along with Taylor, Burton, D.Wilson and McKay onboard, will put MU way over in the "glorified" aspect. MU needs to get one of them. Get both, along with the new recruits and now you are talking program changes.
Yeah, OK. I get that. We have to take advantage of pretty much an unprecedented level of talent coming out of Milwaukee.
We have to land one or both of those guys. Ride them far. And build off of that.
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Frankly, we had a golden opportunity to get to the Final Four last year with a great bracket and two Marquette greats playing pivotal roles. Unfortunately, we picked a bad time to go ice cold from the field. A lot of advancing is luck. I think if we can keep Buzz we will break through at least once in the next 4-5 years.
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I suspect that MU will never be a regular Elite 8 participant along the lines of the 'blue bloods'. That said, we've become a permanent fixture in the NCAA with nearly weekly exposure on national TV. Not bad for a midwest Jesuit school of 12,000. Frankly, when one judges the Buzz era the only point in our history that surpasses it would be the mid '70s Al era. Enjoy the ride folks.
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Yeah, OK. I get that. We have to take advantage of pretty much an unprecedented level of talent coming out of Milwaukee.
We have to land one or both of those guys. Ride them far. And build off of that.
Thats correct. If MU lands one of those two, then MU shows the "blue bloods", they can keep the most highly ranked recruits out of Milwaukee in the last 25 years, from moving on.
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The FF was within reach last season. The Florida game was very winnable and the next would have been a rubber game with Louisville. Granted, I think L'ville was playing better than MU at the time but in a winner-take-all game, anything can happen. Getting back to the "ceiling" topic...
The difference in that Florida game was Brad Beal - a lottery pick and one of the top players in his class. Marquette doesn't have anyone who fits that description. Even when they did have a lottery pick on the team, he more or less came out of no where. It's one thing to find the "diamond in the rough" like Butler, Crowder, DJO, Gardner, etc but none of those guys were/are the type of player who could put his team on his back and carry them deep into the NCAA Tournament. Marquette has had some very good players come through the program, especially recently, but aside from the obvious, none of those guys have been nearly as talented as the sixth man on some of the so-called bluebloods. In the end, talent typically wins out.
Consistently being in the upper half of the Big East and reaching Sweet 16s is probably the ceiling for MU basketball. That doesn't mean MU will never win the BE or will never reach the Elite 8, Final Four or even win a National Championship. It means that having the expectation that Marquette will be a perennial power and national title contender is not realistic (as much as we'd all like it to be). If Marquette were to win a National Championship, it would likely be because at least one player like a Juan Anderson or a Steve Taylor or a Deonte Burton suddenly had the light go on and became an All-American/lottery pick. It's not going to be because McDonald's All-American have started begging to play in Milwaukee.
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First is consistency. If you look at the elite coaches, they stay in place and build a reputation and program. And even those who jumped around a bit gained NBA blood/connections (Cal, Pitino, Montgomery). Stability breeds success due to continuity, network, reputation. MU is close to landing some local blue bloods, will this bring on the other Burger Boys? Will the new admin allow the Top 25's one and dones? We know statistically from Statsheet that to win a national championship, you need these recruits. Is this within the "win the right way" guidelines?
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In Basketball recruiting you have to take the next step, you can see what Al did. First George Thompson, got Dean with Ric Cobb, but the next step was Jim Chones, after that and
being in the Top 5 every year it got easier, then came McNeal, Lucas, Bo Eliis, Butch, Whitehead, you need that one stud that takes you to the next level. Stone might be the player,
but right now the Top 20 kids are not looking at MU. Being in the Top 20 every year helps, Buzz is taking the next step in recruiting for the following year, but if they are going to take
the next step he has to beat out Alabama or Miami for a top kid, and Emblid. If he gets both, I think he is on his way to the next level.
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Certainly there are "blue bloods" and just as certainly Marquette isn't one of them. That said the UNC "Dohretys" look a lot different than the UNC "Smiths" and the UK "Caliparis" easily outshine the UK "Gillespies". Is UCLA a blue blood without the Wooden era? Indiana without Knight? (maybe). The last 10 years of Al's tenure we were better than every program in the country except UCLA. So even if you're not a "blue blood" the right coach can put you (temporarily) at that level. MSU/Izzo is an example of that. Buzz is our best (only real) chance in the last 35 years to do it. He's got us within striking distance, but we're not there yet.
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When it comes to Buzz I believe 100% he has ability to get the highest recruits in the nation. That said, I am not certain that can happen at MU for many reasons. MU can and should be a top 20 program year in and year out. My fear is that the school does not understand what it takes to accomplish that. Being top in any walk of life is hard and college athletics is tougher because you are dealing with kids.
Buzz is unique guy and I think he relates extremely well with 18-22 kids, much in the same way Al did. KO was similar in that regard. Knowing the culture they come from and getting their personal stories is big part of it. Buzz was not overnight success and relates to people's struggles very well IMO. All I know is that coaches that get it can recruit anywhere they work. Hate Huggins or not, the guy recruiting studs to KSU and I think Buzz has same skill set.
If MU want to compete for national championships we have a coach for the first time since 1977 capable of doing it. I am not stroking Buzz off or bashing MU in any way. Just saying that I have seen a lot of MU ball over the years and this is the closest we have been to elite in three plus decades.
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Buzz is the guy who can and will do it, IF he's here long enough.
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I think Buzz's ceiling is higher than MU's. By that I mean, if he was coaching at Kentucky, North Carolina or Kansas I would expect him to win a National title. While it is possible, he is not likely to win one at MU. To win with players ranked in the 50-100 range you have to have experienced players and luck. At the top three schools you will have multiple McDonald's all-americans, which just makes it easier to get to final 4 to have a chance to win the title.
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Buzz is the guy who can and will do it, IF he's here long enough.
Agree with this. Just not sure he'll do it here.
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I think Buzz's ceiling is higher than MU's. By that I mean, if he was coaching at Kentucky, North Carolina or Kansas I would expect him to win a National title. While it is possible, he is not likely to win one at MU. To win with players ranked in the 50-100 range you have to have experienced players and luck. At the top three schools you will have multiple McDonald's all-americans, which just makes it easier to get to final 4 to have a chance to win the title.
This is a really good point. I believe that Buzz would be willing to take a chance on a lot of talented players that the Marquette administration (both current and former) would not admit into the university. That's not meant to be a knock on Buzz or the MU admin. I just think that there are quite a few high-level D1 coaches with a lot more leeway on questionable recruits.
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I'm not sure what the question is. Are you asking if Buzz can start regularly getting top 10 guys? Because we are now getting top 50 guys (30 to 70) with regularity. We are ranked every year and playing into the second week of the tourney. We have up to 8 guys that may log minutes in the NBA this year.
Add the above up and we are among maybe 5 to 10 schools that can all say the above. The only other small private institutions on that list are also in the Big East.
Now to go to the next level, we have to get one or two and done players. Their are only three or four schools they go to (UK, UNC, Duke, UCLA and maybe Mich State). At that point, it becomes a zero sum game. To get a top 10 recruit, you have to take him away from another school.
MU has as good a chance as anyone breaking into the one and two and done group. Especially with the Milwaukee talent coming.
That said, we could start with Embiid.
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MU can and should be a top 20 program year in and year out. My fear is that the school does not understand what it takes to accomplish that. Being top in any walk of life is hard and college athletics is tougher because you are dealing with kids.
Goose, you're Nowcasting (taking an event that just occurred and predict it is about to occur).
MU has been a top 20 team year-in and year out for many years. It has played in the second week of the tourney for two years running and has one of its best recruiting classes ever coming in.
So let me correct your statement ... MU can and should be a is an established top 20 program year in and year out. My fear is that the school does not understand what it takes to accomplish that this because they made it happen. Being top in any walk of life is hard and college athletics is tougher because you are dealing with kids.
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Part of me believes that the reality of D-I hoops is that recruiting and coaching alone won't make you a "blue blood." The only way to be a blue blood today is to swim around in slime -- and no, this doesn't mean over-signing, signing JUCO's or sending a player home every summer. I'm talking the things that - if uncovered - would earn you a multi-year post-season ban, something which Marquette cannot afford.
Kentucky, North Carolina, Syracuse, Kansas, Ohio State, Louisville, etc. have all mastered the system to the point where they can get caught with their hands in the cookie jar yet skirt responsibility (see: North Carolina AFAM courses and/or Lance Thomas' bling). Yet even if they were sanctioned, they are all publicly-funded institutions who can afford to pay a few fines or miss out on the tournament in a given year.
Marquette's pockets simply aren't that deep, and so while MU can be a perennial competitor and occasional contender, it can't afford the risks associated with becoming a perennial blue blood. That's MU's ceiling.
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This is a really good point. I believe that Buzz would be willing to take a chance on a lot of talented players that the Marquette administration (both current and former) would not admit into the university. That's not meant to be a knock on Buzz or the MU admin. I just think that there are quite a few high-level D1 coaches with a lot more leeway on questionable recruits.
Do we know if Buzz has wanted to recruit a player but was told "no" by the admin?
It wouldn't shock me if it's happened, but I don't remember hearing anything like that (yet).
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This is a really good point. I believe that Buzz would be willing to take a chance on a lot of talented players that the Marquette administration (both current and former) would not admit into the university. That's not meant to be a knock on Buzz or the MU admin. I just think that there are quite a few high-level D1 coaches with a lot more leeway on questionable recruits.
Maybe, but there's no real evidence of this.
In fact, MU seemingly has admitted several players, both for Crean and Buzz (and even Mike Deane, for that matter), who would not have met the school's academic standards for non athletes. The last time I can recall recruits being denied admission was under Bob Dukiet.
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You cats shouldn't bank on a campionship run with just MKE talent. Adding Looney and Stone to the mix could be just the right combination, but I'd be shocked if MU landed one of them. I have no knowledge of what Stone is thinkin'. Far too early for anyone to get hot and bothered over him now. Suffice it to say, he will write his own ticket.
Looney, on the other hand, I feel, will likely go out of state. In fact, I know firsthand, both he and his camp feel he is ready to do so and actually see merit in leaving the area. BTW, he wasn't at Madness, aina?
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Do we know if Buzz has wanted to recruit a player but was told "no" by the admin?
It wouldn't shock me if it's happened, but I don't remember hearing anything like that (yet).
In fact: being allowed to bring Mayo on board would seem to be some evidence to the contrary.
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4ever
Agree completely on the chances on landing Looney and Stone. With or without Buzz I think both might be a reach. Going away from home is big for kids and do not fault them a bit. That said, us landing Chicago kids should work in our favor. I am not banking on Looney and Stone and not because of Buzz or MU. Personally I am hoping that Buzz, Burton and Wilson are all here next year before I get amped up over Looney and Stone.
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Do we know if Buzz has wanted to recruit a player but was told "no" by the admin?
It wouldn't shock me if it's happened, but I don't remember hearing anything like that (yet).
I am becoming more and more convinced that "winning the right way" as envisioned by LW and "winning the Buzz way" are really synonymous. Does Calipari tell one and dones, "Hey, I'm gonna bust your balls and make you work harder than you ever have before." I doubt it. The school doesn't want player getting into trouble outside of school and basketball, Buzz doesn't want guys who are distracted from school and basketball. What's the difference?
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I think Benny's statement has the loudest ring.
It's not Buzz, Larry, Pilarz or Marquette that will limit the ceiling, it is the deep pockets of the alumni. We don't have the base to throw around blue blood money, and we will always be second tier because of that.
That being said, I love second tier. I don't want Marquette in the cesspool that is blue blood recruiting. I don't want Marquette following KenoshaWarrior's mentality.
Buzz may not be able to get top 10 recruits, but if we get top 50 consistently, cool deal. Marquette will have down years (wrong side of the bubble), Marquette will have awful years (NIT), Marquette will have okay years (NCAA) and Marquette will have great years (Sweet 16 or better).
Over a course of a decade these would be completely acceptable expectations:
7 Years of NCAA
1 Year of utter crap in the NIT
2 Year of being on the wrong side of the bubble.
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Buzz's "ceiling" is NOT the Blue Bloods unless he changes his "ball busting" style. He will only get the top 10 recruits if they have the kind of "camps" (ugh), nee PARENTS, who tell little NBA-at-15-years-old that he needs his balls busted to get to the next level. If Blue Blood is getting his game stroked to the moon, whether deserved or not, Buzz will not get him with his current style. Which, BTW, I LOVE.
I personally want Buzz to stay and be the iconic don't-care-about-the-other-guys coach that Al was. Need a few more Cracked Sidewalks recruits to come here plus a few kids with Vander Blue-like moms who see and GET the bigger picture.
The final and essential key is Buzz needs to initiate and sign a long-term deal and make it known, like Calipari, Williams, Pitino and Coach K, that Buzz Williams is now and forever the coach at Marquette. Then, the Blue Bloods will come. Then, we will truly have recaptured the Glory Days of Al. Coach McGuire did not see Marquette as a stepping stone to anywhere. Buzz has to see it that way, too. Crean was always going to leave. Up to to you, Coach Buzz.....
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MU has been a top 20 team year-in and year out for many years.
In the last 9 years here are MU"s final rankings:
2012:10
2011:20
2010:unranked (made NCAA)
2009:21
2008:21
2007:20
2006:unranked (made NCAA)
2005:unranked (NIT)
2004:unranked (NIT)
So, I love the trajectory, but in reality we've finished higher than #20 once in the last 9 years, in the top 20 three times and in the top 21 five times. Solid and getting better, but top 20 year after year for many years isn't totally accurate.
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Screw top ten recruits. If Marquette could get some, we wouldn't get the ones who cold get the job done alone or enough of 'em to grab a national title. The best chance MU has to be a threat for the national title is to sweep aside the one and dones when recruiting, figure out which players are going to be the four year players and try to get the best of those, and then drill them in the coach's (Buzz's) system.
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Sounds like Butler.
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I am becoming more and more convinced that "winning the right way" as envisioned by LW and "winning the Buzz way" are really synonymous. Does Calipari tell one and dones, "Hey, I'm gonna bust your balls and make you work harder than you ever have before." I doubt it. The school doesn't want player getting into trouble outside of school and basketball, Buzz doesn't want guys who are distracted from school and basketball. What's the difference?
You should watch the ESPN thing on Kentucky because that's exactly what Calipari tells kids. I was suprised when I saw it but when it aired last Tuesday they showed the commitment of the Harrison twins and they mentioned how Cal never once talked about playing time, expectations, etc. All he talked about was that he'll get them to work the hardest they've ever worked and that will get them to the NBA.
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MU is on verge of being top 20 program and Buzz is running the ship. Anyone that thinks we have been a top 20 program over past decade does not know what a top 20 program looks like. I would hope their is not a person on here that does not believe the program is on upward path. We are close to being big time, with or without Looney and Stone, and I want to see how elite we can become Buzz.
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It's not Buzz, Larry, Pilarz or Marquette that will limit the ceiling, it is the deep pockets of the alumni. We don't have the base to throw around blue blood money, and we will always be second tier because of that.
I have no idea what this means. What are we lacking because we do not have the money?
Facilities? No the Al is among the best among.
Filling an Arena? Nope, we are among the top 20 year and year out in attendance (and the only non-football school on that list).
Buzz not given the resources he needs? No again, he has a private plane.
So, please explain.
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We have money to be elite. Now it is time to see if the school wants to be elite.
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MU is on verge of being top 20 program and Buzz is running the ship. Anyone that thinks we have been a top 20 program over past decade does not know what a top 20 program looks like.
The Buzz era:
Year: Final Rank
2012:10
2011:20
2010:unranked (made NCAA)
2009:21
Last two years of Crean
Year: Final Rank
2008:21
2007:20
Please explain why these numbers say we are not a top 20 program under Buzz?
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We have money to be elite. Now it is time to see if the school wants to be elite.
Again what does this mean? What are not spending money on? Are you saying that Alumni should be "buying recruits"
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We have money to be elite. Now it is time to see if the school wants to be elite.
So, what's Goose's prescription for Marquette magically becoming elite? "Wanting" to become elite doesn't mean you will or can become elite.
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So, what's Goose's prescription for Marquette magically becoming elite? "Wanting" to become elite doesn't mean you will or can become elite.
Buzz will require that his staff and the players all read The Secret.
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In Basketball recruiting you have to take the next step, you can see what Al did. First George Thompson, got Dean with Ric Cobb, but the next step was Jim Chones, after that and being in the Top 5 every year it got easier, then came McNeal, Lucas, Bo Eliis, Butch, Whitehead, you need that one stud that takes you to the next level.
Absolutely. I think three things are critical. One is to have a university that ball players want to attend. Marquette isn't located in Gainsville, Fla., or on Malibu, but we have an open and welcoming university that adores basketball over any other sport. And as much as some of us will snicker at Milwaukee, it can be a very inviting and interesting place. People seem to want to come here.
Second, you build on what you have. Al did it, usuing Thompson, Cobb and Meminger as a base to get the best. Buzz is doing the same thing.
The third is the coach. We need long-term continuity. Had we kept the tanned one, we might be a Final Four candidate regularly by now. Keep Buzz happy another couple of years and the ceiling is net cutting time at the NCAA Championship. Period.
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AnotherMU
Locking Buzz into a "real" long term deal. If we allow Buzz to flirt with other jobs or leave it will not be because of money. We are spending money and as I stated months ago ROI is not fantastic. We spent like elite program and are on outside looking in because of coaching continuity. We have the guy to take us to next level and we need to capitalize on it.
Too many guys on here pull inside jobs because we have this great basketball budget. That means nothing to me if the program is not reflective of the spending. In addition, MU does not have a great basket ball budget...one key booster has a great basketball budget that he gives MU.
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How much does that booster really give annually anyway?
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Sultan,
He pays a big part of the budget. No way in hell MU pays a coach big time money out of their own pockets. We have been very blessed on having that booster. More importantly, I thought he was nuts with his Buzz endorsement and that proved to be best hire in long time.
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I have no idea what this means. What are we lacking because we do not have the money?
Facilities? No the Al is among the best among.
Filling an Arena? Nope, we are among the top 20 year and year out in attendance (and the only non-football school on that list).
Buzz not given the resources he needs? No again, he has a private plane.
So, please explain.
Not to put words in PTM's mouth, but I was referring to the "off-the-record" money. What you've cited above qualifies as "on-the-record."
"Off-the-record" money are the funds that go into:
1) Paying the athletes, their families, and their coaches/handlers, either directly or indirectly.
2) Paying for the attorneys if/when you're investigated by the NCAA.
3) Paying "hush" money (e.g. whoever paid off Lance Thomas' "settlement" & made the jeweler unwilling to talk to the NCAA)
4) Supporting the program/institution if/when they happened to be fined, sanctioned, etc.
#4 is the big one... for an institution like Marquette - whose athletic department only has one revenue sport (relatively speaking) - sanctions could mean millions of dollars a year in ticket revenues, donations, tournament shares, etc., especially if they include a post-season ban... MU simply doesn't have the other sports and/or donor base that could keep the athletic program afloat for an indefinite period of time if - HYPOTHETICALLY - Dick Strong was caught writing rent checks to the Parker family.
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Not to put words in PTM's mouth, but I was referring to the "off-the-record" money. What you've cited above qualifies as "on-the-record."
"Off-the-record" money are the funds that go into:
1) Paying the athletes, their families, and their coaches/handlers, either directly or indirectly.
2) Paying for the attorneys if/when you're investigated by the NCAA.
3) Paying "hush" money (e.g. whoever paid off Lance Thomas' "settlement" & made the jeweler unwilling to talk to the NCAA)
4) Supporting the program/institution if/when they happened to be fined, sanctioned, etc.
#4 is the big one... for an institution like Marquette - whose athletic department only has one revenue sport (relatively speaking) - sanctions could mean millions of dollars a year in ticket revenues, donations, tournament shares, etc., especially if they include a post-season ban... MU simply doesn't have the other sports and/or donor base that could keep the athletic program afloat for an indefinite period of time if - HYPOTHETICALLY - Dick Strong was caught writing rent checks to the Parker family.
Benny is correct I was referring to the dirty money.
However, the Al is great, but every year another blue blood is building something better. Also, our athletes live in Carpenter and Humphrey. Way behind when compared to the blue bloods.
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Sultan,
He pays a big part of the budget. No way in hell MU pays a coach big time money out of their own pockets. We have been very blessed on having that booster.
We are undoubtedly blessed. But honestly, he pays a "big part of the budget?" The budget is $16 million. Now I am sure that student grants-in-aid are counted toward that, and MU probably eats that, but does he provide $1 million a year? More?
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He is north of a $1 million from what I have heard. In addition, he has helped get other folks to join the party.
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So let me correct your statement ... MU can and should be a is an established top 20 program year in and year out. My fear is that the school does not understand what it takes to accomplish that this because they made it happen. Being top in any walk of life is hard and college athletics is tougher because you are dealing with kids.
Think you give far too much credit to a "school" making it happen, as opposed to the coach at the school. Granted, Wild and Cords were all in to support the men's basketball program - however, seems the current regime has a different philosophy. If they run off the best coach the school has had since Al McGuire, over a few minor off court incidents - the same variety and kind that happen all over the country....this "school" will not make any consistent athletic success happen.
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We spent like elite program and are on outside looking in because of coaching continuity. We have the guy to take us to next level and we need to capitalize on it.
Goose, you're starting to worry me. After starting the non-existent Hiroshima stuff at the beginning of the summer, now you're worried about coaching continuity because we had exactly one coaching change in the last 15 years. And in that change we took the assistant coach and did not miss a beat.
What schools have had more continuity than us in the last 15 years? Not UCLA, Kansas, Kentucky, Uconn (this year) or UNC (remember Matt Dougherty?). Yes to Mich State, Syracuse and Duke.
So please further explain this non-existent continuity problem we seem to have.
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Benny is correct I was referring to the dirty money.
However, the Al is great, but every year another blue blood is building something better. Also, our athletes live in Carpenter and Humphrey. Way behind when compared to the blue bloods.
So do other schools organize the dirty money or should I have take it upon myself to contact Looney and Stone and "see what they need?"
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Buzz Williams- He gone...
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Think you give far too much credit to a "school" making it happen, as opposed to the coach at the school. Granted, Wild and Cords were all in to support the men's basketball program - however, seems the current regime has a different philosophy. If they run off the best coach the school has had since Al McGuire, over a few minor off court incidents - the same variety and kind that happen all over the country....this "school" will not make any consistent athletic success happen.
Buzz is not being "run off" for a few minor off court incidents. In fact, he is not being "run off" at all.
Are you reading imaginary MUScoop again?
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I do not think Buzz is being run off for the most part. If he does leave I think it will be a mutual decision based off philosophical issues. Off court stuff did not help anyone but think it comes down what the two parties few as future of the program. Buzz is not going to change his overall plan IMO and if that plan does not mesh with Fr. P's plan the two sides mutually part ways.
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Bilsu has it right, "I think Buzz's ceiling is higher than MU's." If Buzz can get McKay and Embiid he has a national championship team. Buzz's ethical standards are extremely high and if the Marquette Administration can't make it work there's a long list of other schools with high standards who would welcome Marquette's second coming of Al McGuire.
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I do not think Buzz is being run off for the most part. If he does leave I think it will be a mutual decision based off philosophical issues. Off court stuff did not help anyone but think it comes down what the two parties few as future of the program. Buzz is not going to change his overall plan IMO and if that plan does not mesh with Fr. P's plan the two sides mutually part ways.
This is correct. If Buzz were being run off, the policy changes in place would exist only when Buzz is around. But those changes are likely permanent. And we could argue all day whether or not such changes are actually that big of a deal or not....
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At the risk of starting a war on here, it's getting very depressing to see that almost every topic degenerates into "Can we keep Buzz?" We know that 50% or more of us are deeply worried about this given our past history. There's a second segment, probably a minority, that think, "what the heck, who cares!" I'm sure it's especially exacerbated by the fact that TV Tommy has a team (overrated, probably) thought to be among the best in the country.
Reality is this -- coaching is more mobile than it ever was in Al's days. Look at Calipari in Kentucky or Pintino in Loserville. They've been everywhere, or at least it seems like they had. In the 1970s, Wooden and Rupp were coaching at UCLA and Kentucky almost since Dr. Naismith nailed a peach basket on a board. The only big-time place Al ever coached was Marquette (Belmont Abbey doesn't count and we were a major step up).
Look, I had a tough time adjusting to Buzz, but I'm glad I did and I'm delighted he is our coach. If he leaves, OK, he leaves. TV Tommy left and we didn't shrivel up into being UWM. If he stays, I think we have a legit shot at being national champions again. In the meantime, quit worrying about it! As FDR once said, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself!"
The season is a couple of weeks away and I'm hoping the talk on here turns even more heavily to Ohio State and how good we will be if Chris Otule is everything we saw last year before the injury and Vander/Todd/Junior become the flashy guards we need to run what I hope will be a wonderful offense. Oh, and Davante becomes the second coming of Shaq!
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So do other schools organize the dirty money or should I have take it upon myself to contact Looney and Stone and "see what they need?"
Unless you're syndicating annual commitments in the seven to eight-figure range, it would benefit all of us for you to not be going rogue without at least giving Broeker a call first. In which case, he'll rightfully ask you to make a legitimate donation instead seeing as how MU can't even close the $1.1M scholarship gap (what the NCAA allows to be awarded in scholarship aid vs. what is actually raised on an annual basis).
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Unless you're syndicating annual commitments in the seven to eight-figure range, it would benefit all of us for you to not be going rogue without at least giving Broeker a call first. In which case, he'll rightfully ask you to make a legitimate donation instead seeing as how MU can't even close the $1.1M scholarship gap (what the NCAA allows to be awarded in scholarship aid vs. what is actually raised on an annual basis).
But this thread is about dirty money making the program better. Now you're back to begging for ethical money which everyone here says does not get us beyond MU's ceiling.
And by the way, no one is syndicating seven or eight figure numbers for MU donations. That number only exists on Internet message boards.
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But this thread is about dirty money making the program better. Now you're back to begging for ethical money which everyone here says does not get us beyond MU's ceiling.
And by the way, no one is syndicating seven or eight figure numbers for MU donations. That number only exists on Internet message boards.
I don't interpret anyone as advocating for dirty money... my point is strictly that dirty money is the only way to break through the ceiling, and MU simply doesn't have the insurance coverage in the event that a thunderstorm starts while there's a hole in the roof.
Personally, I'm perfectly content with what MU has without having to go down the path that the "blue bloods" have.
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Many wonderfully imaginative ideas (MSU...Making Sh!t Up) exist on Internet Message Boards.
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Bilsu has it right, "I think Buzz's ceiling is higher than MU's." If Buzz can get McKay and Embiid he has a national championship team. Buzz's ethical standards are extremely high and if the Marquette Administration can't make it work there's a long list of other schools with high standards who would welcome Marquette's second coming of Al McGuire.
I loved that comment, though I feel it is both true and untrue at the same time. I think individually, Buzz's ceiling is higher than Marquette's. But with Buzz here, Marquette's ceiling goes up and matches his level, it just takes longer than it might elsewhere.
If Buzz went to Kentucky (or Duke or UNC or Kansas or UCLA) today, I have every confidence he would be challenging for Final Fours and national titles within 2-3 years of his arrival. As it stands, we are currently looking at the 2013-14 through 2015-16 as our years to potentially break through to that level, which stands to be 6-8 years after his arrival.
If our current strong crop along with Milwaukee's Best can break through to the Final Four or even higher, I fully believe we will see an improvement in the quality of players we get here. I still don't think we will get the top-10 types, but instead of attracting primarily 50-150 players in the rankings, I think we'll see 25-75 ranked players coming in. Instead of getting the occasional top-50, we'll get the occasional top-20. And I fully believe that with Buzz's ability to identify quality players that will use their full eligibility, he could routinely assemble a roster capable of competing at a level on par with Louisville and Florida, where we aren't necessarily a title contender each year, but the Elite Eight is a regularly attainable goal.
If Buzz sticks around and can get to the final weekend and have some success there within the next 3-4 years, I think Marquette can make the jump to being a top-10 program. We will never be one of the true top-5 blue bloods, but we can get to that next tier, provided we have a coach with the drive and loyalty to get us there. I do believe Buzz is one of the few people that could be that guy.
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This is correct. If Buzz were being run off, the policy changes in place would exist only when Buzz is around. But those changes are likely permanent. And we could argue all day whether or not such changes are actually that big of a deal or not....
I'm not surprised you don't understand the value of interpersonal relationships and their role in a highly coveted employee's decision making process. Buzz has tons of options - he doesn't need to remain at Marquette and deal with idiocy above him. By disparaging your coach in the local newspaper, you aren't exactly laying down the welcome mat.
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I'm not surprised you don't understand the value of interpersonal relationships and their role in a highly coveted employee's decision making process.
LOL...
Buzz has tons of options - he doesn't need to remain at Marquette and deal with idiocy above him. By disparaging your coach in the local newspaper, you aren't exactly laying down the welcome mat.
Not sure what this has to do with your assertion that they are running him off. I think LW and SP would be thrilled to have Buzz stay, but they have changed some of the operating rules. And they don't necessarily believe their primary POV is to not "mess with his happy." (To coin that lame phrase.)
And if that is important enough to him, then he can exercise his options.
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Sultan
I strongly disagree that Fr.P would be thrilled if Buzz was our coach after this season. From what I have heard of late there is no love loss between the two. Not saying things cannot change but relationship building was not the theme of the off season. LW is the least of the pro Buzz supporters problems IMO.
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You can achieve changes and "not mess with happy" if you approach change with respect and some level of a sense of PR. That is where the problem is. There's a strong perception of arrogance from the AD rather than a united message. Buzz is a deeply religious and ethical man. He has earned respect. Marquette's Jesuit tradition reflects the same religious and ethical fundamental principles. It should work if change is based on humanity and respect.
LW has had lose lips in public and while he is clearly bright his sense of public relations and HR principle gets a failing grade.
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Tulsa
LW has had loose lips for months now. Do you really think he is saying his thoughts or thoughts of someone higher up? Most people on here thinks he has sounded arrogant or disrespectful towards Buzz since WV game. If he was talking out of school don't you think his boss would have told him to lower the comments down a bit? LW is talking the corporate line or his boss has no idea what he is saying.
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I wonder how many people would have this mindset that there's some sort of rift (or chasm) between Buzz and LW/Pilarz if the MU Athletic Department had a competent PR specialist, or for that matter, any PR staffers.
Regardless of whether or not it's true, and if so how overblown it may or may not be, the "trouble in paradise" perception is not something that sits well with donors and alumni who are genuinely concerned about the direction in which the university is going (on various levels). If it's complete BS, it needs to be smoked out. If the admin wants Buzz gone, they should do it already. If it's something in between, then someone should speak up and tell the university stakeholders what the heck is going on. Personally, my thought is that something very minor that didn't need to be resolved occurred, and the outsider-insiders to the program who think it should have been resolved are making it out to be a much bigger deal than it actually is, not to mention are spinning it to whatever tune suits their taste (or gets them the most attention). I'll be happy to be wrong on this, just so long as we can put the issue to rest -- if that means Buzz is released, so be it. If that means that MUScoop just got punk'd, spectacular. If LW and Buzz have to do the jig of conciliation on Wisconsin Ave, I just hope someone stops traffic.
I get the whole idea of "if I respond to it once, I have to respond to it every time," but Buzz needs to go off-course this once, if for no other reason to explain that he shouldn't ever need to be in a position where he has to explain something.
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If everything is really peachy, where did Goodman get the idea that Buzz and LW were at odds? I assume he has sources other than MU Scoop.
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If everything is really peachy, where did Goodman get the idea that Buzz and LW were at odds? I assume he has sources other than MU Scoop.
Don't know. Where did he get the idea that the PG's from Iona, College of Charleston, Loyola Marymount, Indiana State, Belmont, South Dakota State, etc. etc. are better than the PGs from Duke & Florida?
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LOL...
Not sure what this has to do with your assertion that they are running him off. I think LW and SP would be thrilled to have Buzz stay, but they have changed some of the operating rules. And they don't necessarily believe their primary POV is to not "mess with his happy." (To coin that lame phrase.)
And if that is important enough to him, then he can exercise his options.
So which operating rules have they changed Sultan? You seem to be making the point that this is all about policy issues and operating rules - so do you just discount the interpersonal relationship between Buzz and LW/Pilarz? Does that not matter?
Pilarz and LW in no way can fire Buzz Williams - if they did - the PR debacle they would face would be off the charts - particularly if the replacement coach gets mediocre results...which would likely be the case. So what else can Pilarz/LW do?? Basically, they can be dicks and create a hostile work environment...and make disparaging remarks in the local newspaper.
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So which operating rules have they changed Sultan? You seem to be making the point that this is all about policy issues and operating rules - so do you just discount the interpersonal relationship between Buzz and LW/Pilarz? Does that not matter?
Pilarz and LW in no way can fire Buzz Williams - if they did - the PR debacle they would face would be off the charts - particularly if the replacement coach gets mediocre results...which would likely be the case. So what else can Pilarz/LW do?? Basically, they can be dicks and create a hostile work environment...and make disparaging remarks in the local newspaper.
As stated here, they have changed rules for GPA requirements for continuing players and residence halls where freshmen players live. There are apparently other items where in the past the administration made exceptions for athletes, but now isn't the case.
But again, on your point regarding interpersonal relationships, Buzz may not get along with LW or SP....but that doesn't mean that they are trying to run him off.
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If everything is really peachy, where did Goodman get the idea that Buzz and LW were at odds? I assume he has sources other than MU Scoop.
Maybe from the same place he got the idea that the Thunder was trading James Harden to Charlotte before the draft.
Could you point out where anyone has suggested "everything is really peachy?" I think those of us not building fallout shelters have merely suggested that we have no idea what the Buzz-LW relationship is like (unlike those of you with whom Buzz shares his most intimate thoughts), and that perhaps some of the more dire tales of impending doom and gloom might be a tad hyperbolic ... as has proven true in each and every case so far.
Maybe I'm just missing the peachy posts.
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As stated here, they have changed rules for GPA requirements for continuing players and residence halls where freshmen players live. There are apparently other items where in the past the administration made exceptions for athletes, but now isn't the case.
But again, on your point regarding interpersonal relationships, Buzz may not get along with LW or SP....but that doesn't mean that they are trying to run him off.
Thanks for the clarification. In my opinion, if you aren't trying to ease someone out, you don't make disparaging remarks to the local press. You don't make it more difficult academically to recruit to MU than what other high major universities adhere to. You don't put your freshman players in normal dorms where other freshman live - why? Because other schools have posh, luxury "dorm rooms," way beyond what even Humphrey Hall offers. Why make it less attractive to a potential recruit to attend MU, with regard to their living accommodations? Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me...and I'd think to many. No?
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Ners
Buzz and MU can mutually decide to part ways and Buzz not be fired. From what I have heard several times that mutually parting of ways happened in the spring. MU has a year to put together a list of replacements and Buzz has a year to make a positive move, not a SMU type move. I believe MU avoided a PR nightmare by working out a deal with Buzz. Again, everything I have heard simply comes down to Buzz not being Fr. P's kind of guy. Like it or not but there are times when bosses do not like employees. It might just come down to them not thinking Buzz does it the right way....who knows.
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Thanks for the clarification. In my opinion, if you aren't trying to ease someone out, you don't make disparaging remarks to the local press. You don't make it more difficult academically to recruit to MU than what other high major universities adhere to. You don't put your freshman players in normal dorms where other freshman live - why? Because other schools have posh, luxury "dorm rooms," way beyond what even Humphrey Hall offers. Why make it less attractive to a potential recruit to attend MU, with regard to their living accommodations? Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me...and I'd think to many. No?
You can either view these as ways to push Buzz out...or you could view them as changes they felt they had to make. And if Buzz does leave, the new coach would have to live with them as well.
Now we could argue whether or not these changes make sense. But I don't think they implemented them simply to push Buzz out the door.
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Thanks for the clarification. In my opinion, if you aren't trying to ease someone out, you don't make disparaging remarks to the local press. You don't make it more difficult academically to recruit to MU than what other high major universities adhere to. You don't put your freshman players in normal dorms where other freshman live - why? Because other schools have posh, luxury "dorm rooms," way beyond what even Humphrey Hall offers. Why make it less attractive to a potential recruit to attend MU, with regard to their living accommodations? Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me...and I'd think to many. No?
I don't believe that MU needs to put basketball players at the same level of services/amenities as the average, tuition-paying student, but I also don't think you need to sell-out the integrity of an institution to make a bunch of 18 year-old prima donnas happy. What MU is doing (and was doing) doesn't touch either of the extremes, and frankly, if the only thing that is going to attract a particular recruit to campus is a posh dorm room, then that's not a player MU needs on the team.
Maybe... just maybe, if MU had the best MBB dorms, the easiest classes, and the lowest GPA standards, Trevor Mbakwe would still be here today. If you're not going to have any standards, don't expect your recruits to either.
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Ners
Buzz and MU can mutually decide to part ways and Buzz not be fired. From what I have heard several times that mutually parting of ways happened in the spring. MU has a year to put together a list of replacements and Buzz has a year to make a positive move, not a SMU type move. I believe MU avoided a PR nightmare by working out a deal with Buzz. Again, everything I have heard simply comes down to Buzz not being Fr. P's kind of guy. Like it or not but there are times when bosses do not like employees. It might just come down to them not thinking Buzz does it the right way....who knows.
Ummm .... hmmm.
How do you reconcile this with the fact that Buzz literally is traveling across the country (New Mexico, Florida, Tennessee) to recruit for a school for which he, practically speaking, no longer works, and to build a team he'll never coach. Buzz seems to be working pretty hard to recruit players for someone else, don't you think?
I suspect your source on this might be the same person who told you MU administration was eager to downsize the basketball program.
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You can either view these as ways to push Buzz out...or you could view them as changes they felt they had to make. And if Buzz does leave, the new coach would have to live with them as well.
Now we could argue whether or not these changes make sense. But I don't think they implemented them simply to push Buzz out the door.
I can agree with what you've written here - the changes, quotes to the Journal Sentinel, just don't seem to make a whole lot of sense with regard to trying to retain a coach who has done a hell of a job for the Athletic Department (and University's), most vital, visible and profitable tool. It is naive to think that the changes that were made would have ANY impact or ability to curtail some of the off the court incidents.
As another coach said, one danger of being a college coach is that your livelihood, to an extent, depends on the decision-making of 18-22 year old men - many of whom come from very difficult backgrounds. Nobody likes off court issues at any program, but it is extremely, extremely, optimistic to think that some policy changes can eliminate occasional behavior problems that can plague ALL 18-22 year old men, included the general student body with a much greater incidence.
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Pakuni
If Buzz leaves the program is downsized overnight. Do you really think a recruiter ever stops recruiting? Most of these kids go because of coach and style of play. I woud think it would be quite difficult for even Buzz to make job change if he laid down and stopped recruiting. I would assume Buzz is selling himself to recruits and not the joys to be had at the Annex.
You can believe whatever you want and I respect that. Who knows you might be right. Seems like everybody is getting along swell these days.
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Pakuni
If Buzz leaves the program is downsized overnight.
Whoa...where did you get that idea? I can understand that Buzz and LP don't really get along, but where did you get the impression that it would be downsized?
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Ummm .... hmmm.
How do you reconcile this with the fact that Buzz literally is traveling across the country (New Mexico, Florida, Tennessee) to recruit for a school for which he, practically speaking, no longer works, and to build a team he'll never coach. Buzz seems to be working pretty hard to recruit players for someone else, don't you think?
I suspect your source on this might be the same person who told you MU administration was eager to downsize the basketball program.
I tend to agree with what you've written, yet as we saw when Crean left, and many coaches leave, players are let out of their NLI and are free to go wherever they might like. Players largely choose a school due to the coach - not at all conceivable Buzz could leave and ALL of the recruits leave with him...which would be the ultimate blow to Pilarz, Larry Williams, and effectively make it extremely difficult for the new coach to not face a major drop off and rebuilding job.
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Pakuni
If Buzz leaves the program is downsized overnight. Do you really think a recruiter ever stops recruiting? Most of these kids go because of coach and style of play. I woud think it would be quite difficult for even Buzz to make job change if he laid down and stopped recruiting. I would assume Buzz is selling himself to recruits and not the joys to be had at the Annex.
You can believe whatever you want and I respect that. Who knows you might be right. Seems like everybody is getting along swell these days.
And you may be right. But it just seems that, once again, the reality doesn't jibe with the rumor.
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I tend to agree with what you've written, yet as we saw when Crean left, and many coaches leave, players are let out of their NLI and are free to go wherever they might like. Players largely choose a school due to the coach - not at all conceivable Buzz could leave and ALL of the recruits leave with him...which would be the ultimate blow to Pilarz, Larry Williams, and effectively make it extremely difficult for the new coach to not face a major drop off and rebuilding job.
Well, let's assume there is a terrible hatred between Buzz and LW. And let's assume this causes Buzz to leave at season's end, flipping Larry the bird on his way out.
Under that circumstance, where would you place the odds that Marquette releases these recruits from their LOIs without a restriction saying they can't go sign with Buzz's new school?
I'd place the percentage at somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.
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Sultan
If we allow one of the top coaches to leave it is definite downgrade overnight. In addition, if any bad bad blood does exist every coach in America will know about it. These guys all talk and their people talk. A possible replacement would definitely have to consider plenty before taking the job if rift caused departure.
Pakuni
What reality are you speaking about? I have never seen or heard talk about losing a coach in October unless there is some reality to it. Do you really think everything is all made up and things are the same as they were last October? I would think that any reasonable person would at least have a certain amount of doubt of Buzz's relationship with his superiors and a concern how that will play out. That's reality from my perspective.
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Well, let's assume there is a terrible hatred between Buzz and LW. And let's assume this causes Buzz to leave at season's end, flipping Larry the bird on his way out.
Under that circumstance, where would you place the odds that Marquette releases these recruits from their LOIs without a restriction saying they can't go sign with Buzz's new school?
I'd place the percentage at somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.
You don't see that kind of policy put in place when a coach leaves...only when a player chooses to transfer from a coach he committed to. The PR Black Eye MU would get if it tried to implement such a policy would be a disaster...and you can't really force a kid to come to a school he's no longer interested in coming to - due to the coach he signed with being gone.
Sure hope it doesn't come to this, but it is a scary thought. We land our best/2nd best recruiting class in the last 20 years and the coach leaves....not a good thought. Think the biggest factor for Buzz staying is simply his relationship and fondness for the kids already in the program.
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Sultan
If we allow one of the top coaches to leave it is definite downgrade overnight. In addition, if any bad bad blood does exist every coach in America will know about it. These guys all talk and their people talk. A possible replacement would definitely have to consider plenty before taking the job if rift caused departure.
I interpreted it as not devoting as many resources...I understand your POV.
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Nobody likes off court issues at any program, but it is extremely, extremely, optimistic to think that some policy changes can eliminate occasional behavior problems that can plague ALL 18-22 year old men, included the general student body with a much greater incidence.
To be fair to MU, it's not like there was only a single isolated off-the-court event that set the changes in motion.
We know about several issues and/or poor decision making, and there might are several others we don't know about. Hell, some of this might have been set in motion years ago.
I can't imagine that the MU admin. expects Basketball players to be perfect, but players need to be better than they have been.
Like it or not, if you want to play D1 hoops, you're going to have to keep your nose clean (for the most part), and keep a relatively low profile.
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To be fair to MU, it's not like there was only a single isolated off-the-court event that set the changes in motion.
We know about several issues and/or poor decision making, and there might are several others we don't know about. Hell, some of this might have been set in motion years ago.
I can't imagine that the MU admin. expects Basketball players to be perfect, but players need to be better than they have been.
Like it or not, if you want to play D1 hoops, you're going to have to keep your nose clean (for the most part), and keep a relatively low profile.
The sex assault allegation obviously are disturbing and alarming - yet they were allegations, neither of which led to charges being filed. One incident involved a "couple" who had a previous sexual relationship, and were in the middle of having sex, when apparently* the girl changed her mind. The biggest deal, is that because they were basketball players and high profile, it shone a light on a FAILED, longstanding university policy..and rightfully so..the university should be embarassed by its ridiculous policy on sex assault allegations. Then again, considering the crap that takes place in the Catholic Church, and its protection of priests with a long history of molesting boys..it shouldn't come as a surprise that we had a flawed sex assault policy.
The whole 720 Club thing is Chicken Littles crap. The fact that our underage guys weren't even drinking...says volumes about how they conduct themselves. Seriously. Someone instigates a fight with DJO..what's he supposed to do - go into the fetal position and let someone slug away, while his teammates stand around and watch??
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You don't see that kind of policy put in place when a coach leaves...only when a player chooses to transfer from a coach he committed to. The PR Black Eye MU would get if it tried to implement such a policy would be a disaster...and you can't really force a kid to come to a school he's no longer interested in coming to - due to the coach he signed with being gone.
That's not what I'm suggesting. And, in fact, schools frequently place restrictions on players when releasing them from LOIs. Most don't go as far as Bo Ryan, but it's not uncommon.
I'm suggesting MU would tell these recruits, "We really want you at Marquette and hope you would get to know (New Coach) before making any final decisions. But if you insist on a release, here's a list of 343 Division I programs you can chose from, and one you can't."
That's a far cry from forcing a kid to go to a school he's no longer interest in.
And I'm not even sure this would lead to much bad PR, if any. Buzz would take as much flak for trying to vulture his former employer.
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The sex assault allegation obviously are disturbing and alarming - yet they were allegations, neither of which led to charges being filed. One incident involved a "couple" who had a previous sexual relationship, and were in the middle of having sex, when apparently* the girl changed her mind. The biggest deal, is that because they were basketball players and high profile, it shone a light on a FAILED, longstanding university policy..and rightfully so..the university should be embarassed by its ridiculous policy on sex assault allegations. Then again, considering the crap that takes place in the Catholic Church, and its protection of priests with a long history of molesting boys..it shouldn't come as a surprise that we had a flawed sex assault policy.
The whole 720 Club thing is Chicken Littles crap. The fact that our underage guys weren't even drinking...says volumes about how they conduct themselves. Seriously. Someone instigates a fight with DJO..what's he supposed to do - go into the fetal position and let someone slug away, while his teammates stand around and watch??
What about Vander punching another student?
Listen, I'm not saying the players should burn in hell, but clearly their decision making ability isn't always perfect.
What should DJO do? Ummm, how about realize the team is in the club illegally?, and get the fr*ck out without getting into a confrontation. How about not going to the club at all? How about going, but keeping a low profile?
Again, I don't need the players to be saints, but I think there is room for improvement in their decision making. I think that's fair.
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Without getting into what the players may or may not have done - because none of us know or ever will - can we at least admit that the administration is making its decisions with the benefit of FAR better information than we possess?
Their decisions may or may not be reasonable, but I would suggest that at a minimum the decisions are informed .... and it's obviously at least a bit misguided to call them rash or overreactions without having full knowledge of what they're reacting to.
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The sex assault allegation obviously are disturbing and alarming - yet they were allegations, neither of which led to charges being filed. One incident involved a "couple" who had a previous sexual relationship, and were in the middle of having sex, when apparently* the girl changed her mind. The biggest deal, is that because they were basketball players and high profile, it shone a light on a FAILED, longstanding university policy..and rightfully so..the university should be embarassed by its ridiculous policy on sex assault allegations. Then again, considering the crap that takes place in the Catholic Church, and its protection of priests with a long history of molesting boys..it shouldn't come as a surprise that we had a flawed sex assault policy.
There's also the issue, w/r/t to the first sex assault allegation, of Buzz holding a team meeting the morning after the alleged incident (with one of the players apparently attempting to contact the alleged victim). Stuff like that shouldn't happen; Broeker acknowledged as much when Cottingham was fired "resigned."
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What about Vander punching another student?
Listen, I'm not saying the players should burn in hell, but clearly their decision making ability isn't always perfect.
What should DJO do? Ummm, how about realize the team is in the club illegally?, and get the fr*ck out without getting into a confrontation. How about not going to the club at all? How about going, but keeping a low profile?
Again, I don't need the players to be saints, but I think there is room for improvement in their decision making. I think that's fair.
Wow. Your mindset is concerning, as it reeks of expectant of perfection...and if frightens me that our admin may see things the same way. Find me a high major college basketball or football team in America that doesn't go to bars or clubs, and I'll give you $1,000. Seriously. So don't go to a club as an over 21 year old? Keep a low profile? Who says DJO wasn't keeping a low profile?
How fun to be a college student and all you can do is be about basketball 7am - 10pm 5 days a week from October - March...and never go out and have fun.
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Wow. Your mindset is concerning, as it reeks of expectant of perfection...and if frightens me that our admin may see things the same way. Find me a high major college basketball or football team in America that doesn't go to bars or clubs, and I'll give you $1,000. Seriously. So don't go to a club as an over 21 year old? Keep a low profile? Who says DJO wasn't keeping a low profile?
How fun to be a college student and all you can do is be about basketball 7am - 10pm 5 days a week from October - March...and never go out and have fun.
I think we are getting off track.
I'm only asking them to use better judgement. Not perfection. Just better judgement. My guess is that is what the admin. wants as well. I guess we'll see.
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Without getting into what the players may or may not have done - because none of us know or ever will - can we at least admit that the administration is making its decisions with the benefit of FAR better information than we possess?
Their decisions may or may not be reasonable, but I would suggest that at a minimum the decisions are informed .... and it's obviously at least a bit misguided to call them rash or overreactions without having full knowledge of what they're reacting to.
Perfectly stated.
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There's also the issue, w/r/t to the first sex assault allegation, of Buzz holding a team meeting the morning after the alleged incident (with one of the players apparently attempting to contact the alleged victim). Stuff like that shouldn't happen; Broeker acknowledged as much when Cottingham was fired "resigned."
Next to the whole reporting fiasco, this in my mind was the biggest issue with alleged incident. Perhaps, the reason why a strong personality like Larry Williams was brought in and given so much authority.
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Next to the whole reporting fiasco, this in my mind was the biggest issue with alleged incident. Perhaps, the reason why a strong personality like Larry Williams was brought in and given so much authority.
At the very least, it's the reason why the athletic director reports directly to Fr. Pilarz now.
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Pakuni
What reality are you speaking about? I have never seen or heard talk about losing a coach in October unless there is some reality to it. Do you really think everything is all made up and things are the same as they were last October? I would think that any reasonable person would at least have a certain amount of doubt of Buzz's relationship with his superiors and a concern how that will play out. That's reality from my perspective.
Rumor: MU administration is downsizing the program.
Reality: MU administration allows Buzz to make huge financial offer to lure Issac Chew from Illinois; hire a former head coach to run "basketball operations;" makes repeated statements about not downsizing the program
Rumor: Multiple players being shown the door over heightened academics standards
Reality: No players leave for academic reasons
Rumor: Buzz being told he can't recruit JUCOs
Reality: JUCO Jameel McKay commits to MU in June
Rumor: Suspension of Todd Mayo imposed on Buzz by administration
Reality: Buzz and Todd say it was Buzz's call, not related to academics
Rumor: Todd Mayo leaves program, not coming back
Reality: Todd Mayo is back
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At the very least, it's the reason why the athletic director reports directly to Fr. Pilarz now.
Yep. Honestly, the incident couldn't have come at worst time for Buzz. Right during the transition to a new regime. I'm 100% positive this was the last thing Fr. Pilarz wanted to deal with. And when they took a look at what happened, they were mortified by what was found. Changes were inevitable.
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Pakuni
If Buzz leaves the program is downsized overnight. Do you really think a recruiter ever stops recruiting? Most of these kids go because of coach and style of play. I woud think it would be quite difficult for even Buzz to make job change if he laid down and stopped recruiting. I would assume Buzz is selling himself to recruits and not the joys to be had at the Annex.
You can believe whatever you want and I respect that. Who knows you might be right. Seems like everybody is getting along swell these days.
Goose, I think Pakuni's point is why would Marquette (whether it is LW, SP, or the board) let Buzz utilize MU's resources (private plane and the expenses that entail) to go out and recruit players to a program that neither MU nor Buzz plan on being a part of... If I were them and knew that Buzz was on his way out based on this "agreement" you mention, I would not give him the keys to the jet... I would let him buy his own commercial flights... I realize a recruiter never stops recruiting, but he can only do so much based on what his bosses allow him to do...
Coming from somebody with no "insiders" or "sources," I agree with Ners and see (perhaps naively) Buzz staying for these recruits and the returning players... If there is one thing that most people agree on with Buzz it's that he will speak his mind/tell the truth. Once we see a decline in recruiting success and/or hear of indifference from Buzz on the recruiting trail (which probably won't happen), then I will really start to worry (not that you all don't have me worried enough). I understand he won't ever let up, and he can't, but if at some point he is unable to sustain the recruiting success that he has had over the last 5 years, that, to me, would be a sign that he can't promise those players that he will be at Marquette in the near future and could be on his way out.
I just don't see Buzz blatantly misleading these recruits under Goose's scenario. I know coaches leave recruits/returning players every year, but if your rumor is true, this is different because Buzz would already know that he is on his way out, whereas most departures come from a coach being recruited following a job opening during/after the season.
Again, I may just be naive since I don't have those "insiders" or "sources." But the 2013 class' twitter feed keeps my hopes up... they all seem pretty pumped to be a part of MU, and it seems Buzz's involvement is a big part of that...
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Pakuni
Nicely done on your rumors vs. reality. I have only believed in one rumor, Buzz will be gone and thus program is downsized. I never bought into the other rumors for several reasons. Biggest reason why I did not buy those rumors was because of other than on this site I never heard the same things from people I trust. As for my belief, Buzz will not be our coach in a year and the school will directly or indirectly change the course of the program.
As I stated yesterday, you may be right and I hope you are correct.
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Has anyone ever coached a 'lame duck' season like some here are assuming Buzz is?
/doesn't believe it for a minute
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Red Stripe
While I believe Buzz is gone after this year does not mean things cannot be mended. Would say highly doubtful, but anything is possible. But to address to your point, KO had a lame duck year, as he was going anywhere after his last season even if a step backwards. TC had feelers out for several seasons and contacted IU in Feb of his last year. I would think that many coaches know they are leaving a place in advance.
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OK, I'm going to say it again and again and again until folks on this board get it.
"It" is not about the personality differences, if any, between Buzz, LW and Father Pilarz.
FOLKS, IT IS ABOUT MONEY!
IT IS ABOUT VISIBILITY!
IT IS ABOUT KEEPING THE FURNACE ON SO MARQUETTE CAN DO ITS THING@!@!!
How do you people think Marquette evolved from a few buildings in an urban neighborhood west of downtown Milwaukee into a national university? It's McGuire Money folks! That's right, all those buildings, the union and the renovations happened because Marquette was visible. What makes Marquette visible? To the outside world, it's BASKETBALL! Al made a lot of the growth happen because Marquette got national exposure. Father Raynor was smart enough to realize that.
Why do you think Buzz is the highest paid employee of Marquette University????? Even the most liberal faculty member ought to know that!
Father Pilarz and LW are not stupid. They know if Buzz isn't happy, we have to rebuild and that means lower visibility. Even your Lib Arts majors know that translates into fewer dollars from alumni and friends. That means higher tuition, fewer scholarships and a different cut of students.
Think about it next time before you whine about Buzz leaving!
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How do you people think Marquette evolved from a few buildings in an urban neighborhood west of downtown Milwaukee into a national university? It's McGuire Money folks!
Well that's not entirely true. Marquette consolidated its campus and started closing streets in the early 60s. I mean, the Todd and William Wehr buildings were built in the mid-60s...after McGuire got to MU.
Now it would be entirely accurate to say that basketball helped drag MU out of the financial issues it fell into that lead to, among other things, the sale of the medical school and shutting down of the football team. And again helped the University at its next low point in the late 80s and early 90s.
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dgies9156
Just maybe Fr. P thinks we can high visibilty by enhanced academic repuation. Just maybe Fr. P. thinks Buzz is a loose cannon and the risk is greater than reward with him. Just maybe Fr. P thinks being top tier program is easy and replacement coach would line up around The Al.
Over the years MU admin often have been at odds with the basketball program and the coach. That dates back to Al's days at the school. As a rule the happiest times in ball history has been with ball friendly AD and President. Don't assume every person that gets a check from MU is happy that basketball is the face of the school.
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That's not what I'm suggesting. And, in fact, schools frequently place restrictions on players when releasing them from LOIs. Most don't go as far as Bo Ryan, but it's not uncommon.
I'm suggesting MU would tell these recruits, "We really want you at Marquette and hope you would get to know (New Coach) before making any final decisions. But if you insist on a release, here's a list of 343 Division I programs you can chose from, and one you can't."
That's a far cry from forcing a kid to go to a school he's no longer interest in.
And I'm not even sure this would lead to much bad PR, if any. Buzz would take as much flak for trying to vulture his former employer.
Did MU place restrictions on Ty Taylor? Nick Williams? Schools do not place restrictions on where kids can go, when the coach they sign with leaves the university, prior to the players arrival for their freshman year. Schools only, and only recently, placed restrictions on where already enrolled players can transfer to - incoming freshman and already enrolled players are too different scenarios.
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OK, I'm going to say it again and again and again until folks on this board get it.
"It" is not about the personality differences, if any, between Buzz, LW and Father Pilarz.
FOLKS, IT IS ABOUT MONEY!
IT IS ABOUT VISIBILITY!
IT IS ABOUT KEEPING THE FURNACE ON SO MARQUETTE CAN DO ITS THING@!@!!
How do you people think Marquette evolved from a few buildings in an urban neighborhood west of downtown Milwaukee into a national university? It's McGuire Money folks! That's right, all those buildings, the union and the renovations happened because Marquette was visible. What makes Marquette visible? To the outside world, it's BASKETBALL! Al made a lot of the growth happen because Marquette got national exposure. Father Raynor was smart enough to realize that.
Why do you think Buzz is the highest paid employee of Marquette University????? Even the most liberal faculty member ought to know that!
Father Pilarz and LW are not stupid. They know if Buzz isn't happy, we have to rebuild and that means lower visibility. Even your Lib Arts majors know that translates into fewer dollars from alumni and friends. That means higher tuition, fewer scholarships and a different cut of students.
Think about it next time before you whine about Buzz leaving!
I agree that Al and basketball did more for Marquette University than every professor or administrator here before and since put together. And I agree that as smart men Fr Pilarz and LW should have Buzz's happiness as an extremely high priority. But smart men have egos and smart men sometimes like to put their stamp on things. When Notre Dame hired Jerry Faust I'm sure their were plenty of smart men all in on that decision. If you think smart men don't make dumb decisions...
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Unless they are bold-faced liars (which I don't think they are), Fr. P and LW are basketball-friendly. They have spoken often about how important the BB program is to MU. I believe that they are doing everything they can do to keep Buzz happy (within the confines of running a clean program with good citizens). I still think there are some adjustments that Buzz, LW and Fr. P are going through getting used to working together, but the stakes are high and I trust that these 3 smart individuals will find a way to make it work out for the best of all involved. I believe that this future includes Buzz staying at MU for a long time.
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Unless they are bold-faced liars (which I don't think they are), Fr. P and LW are basketball-friendly. They have spoken often about how important the BB program is to MU. I believe that they are doing everything they can do to keep Buzz happy (within the confines of running a clean program with good citizens). I still think there are some adjustments that Buzz, LW and Fr. P are going through getting used to working together, but the stakes are high and I trust that these 3 smart individuals will find a way to make it work out for the best of all involved. I believe that this future includes Buzz staying at MU for a long time.
I think that everyone on Scoop hopes you're correct.
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I agree that Al and basketball did more for Marquette University than every professor or administrator here before and since put together. And I agree that as smart men Fr Pilarz and LW should have Buzz's happiness as an extremely high priority. But smart men have egos and smart men sometimes like to put their stamp on things. When Notre Dame hired Jerry Faust I'm sure their were plenty of smart men all in on that decision. If you think smart men don't make dumb decisions...
Well said...
Unless they are bold-faced liars (which I don't think they are), Fr. P and LW are basketball-friendly. They have spoken often about how important the BB program is to MU. I believe that they are doing everything they can do to keep Buzz happy (within the confines of running a clean program with good citizens). I still think there are some adjustments that Buzz, LW and Fr. P are going through getting used to working together, but the stakes are high and I trust that these 3 smart individuals will find a way to make it work out for the best of all involved. I believe that this future includes Buzz staying at MU for a long time.
And also well said. Sure hope it goes down the road of Ball Crusher's post...and hope we don't hear or read of anymore egotistical statements made by LW. Think all parties would best be served by LW focusing on operational matters within the athletic department, and not PR/media relations.
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I also hope BrewCityBallerCrusher is right on!!!!
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Did MU place restrictions on Ty Taylor? Nick Williams? Schools do not place restrictions on where kids can go, when the coach they sign with leaves the university, prior to the players arrival for their freshman year. Schools only, and only recently, placed restrictions on where already enrolled players can transfer to - incoming freshman and already enrolled players are too different scenarios.
Well to be fair, neither could transfer to a Big East school per conference rule.
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I agree that Al and basketball did more for Marquette University than every professor or administrator here before and since put together. And I agree that as smart men Fr Pilarz and LW should have Buzz's happiness as an extremely high priority. But smart men have egos and smart men sometimes like to put their stamp on things. When Notre Dame hired Jerry Faust I'm sure their were plenty of smart men all in on that decision. If you think smart men don't make dumb decisions...
Maybe I have worked in the private sector too long, but there's a word that accompanies every action I take -- accountability. It means that if I screw up, I'm responsible. It means that if things go well, I'm responsible. If I make a change and revenue decreases, I'm called on the carpet.
Father and LW also are accountable. If we encourage our head coach to go elsewhere and our record drops to 10-18 under new Coach Bob Dukiet Jr., who likes LW, LW will be sweeping floors at Notre Dame Stadium. Or he will be on the first Southwest flight back to Portland. Father Pilarz will be teaching 14th century literature somewhere.
I'm the first to agree that Al and the Jesuits were occasionally at odds. And the faculty of the 1970s did not care much for the fact that the basketball coach made a salary exponentially greater than their's. Nor do I think they cared for the fact that Marquette was better known for its basketball than its professor of 12th century mysticism in the Philosophy Department. But that's life as we know it.
The Jesuits may have been silly enough to kill the Warrior for the Golden Eagle. But they don't normally eat golden gooses and they ain't killing this one. Even with that ridiculous Marquette Magazine article on LW, I still think these are intelligent, God (an dalumni) fearing men who know better than to mess with Happy.
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Who said that LW or SP wouldn't be held accountable? They wouldn't be necessarily held accountable if Buzz leaves, but they most certainly would be if the basketball program falls apart as a result.
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I'm the first to agree that Al and the Jesuits were occasionally at odds. And the faculty of the 1970s did not care much for the fact that the basketball coach made a salary exponentially greater than their's. Nor do I think they cared for the fact that Marquette was better known for its basketball than its professor of 12th century mysticism in the Philosophy Department. But that's life as we know it.
Let's see. Professor at University X makes a salary of Y. Along comes a basketball coach who single handedly raises the university's profile and desireability. Now (due to nothing he has done) that same professor makes, say, Y + 20%. Professor then rails against the coach's salary and the university's emphasis on basketball over more scholarly pursuits - but he still cashes his checks.
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As stated earleir today on IWB's board, the LW, Fr. P and Buzz situation can really be boiled down to two words: Krunti Hester. Might get a good, even great coach after Buzz but there are no guarantees. Krunti F. Hester.
Who said that LW or SP wouldn't be held accountable? They wouldn't be necessarily held accountable if Buzz leaves, but they most certainly would be if the basketball program falls apart as a result.
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Really? Think this is quite a stretch - why would Isaac Chew leave Illinois for MU (or does he have eyes on the HC job), why would recruits "commit to MU" versus just waiting to know where Buzz lands (guess we know if recruits don't sign in Nov)
And I get confused cause in other posts you says "if buzz leaves" and "hope I am wrong"- which way is it?- does Buzz have a agreement to leave or not?
I think one needs to be very careful with the "sources" with something so strongly worded as this...
Ners
Buzz and MU can mutually decide to part ways and Buzz not be fired. From what I have heard several times that mutually parting of ways happened in the spring. MU has a year to put together a list of replacements and Buzz has a year to make a positive move, not a SMU type move. I believe MU avoided a PR nightmare by working out a deal with Buzz. Again, everything I have heard simply comes down to Buzz not being Fr. P's kind of guy. Like it or not but there are times when bosses do not like employees. It might just come down to them not thinking Buzz does it the right way....who knows.
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As stated earleir today on IWB's board, the LW, Fr. P and Buzz situation can really be boiled down to two words: Krunti Hester. Might get a good, even great coach after Buzz but there are no guarantees. Krunti F. Hester.
What was the deal with Hester - and how does that parallel the Buzz situation? Can't recall if Hester ever made it to MU and was booted, or if Deane (or Crean?) wanted him at MU and couldn't recruit him?
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What was the deal with Hester - and how does that parallel the Buzz situation? Can't recall if Hester ever made it to MU and was booted, or if Deane (or Crean?) wanted him at MU and couldn't recruit him?
Hester was the sole recruit of Mike Deane's final class at MU. He played (well, sat) at MU for a season then transferred to Lamar to play for Deane there.
That said, this seems the worst analogy ever. I'm guessing it means that if Buzz leaves MU gets a roster full of Krunti Hesters????
In reality, even during the Dukiet and Deane eras, MU didn't get a bunch of Krunti Hesters.
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The point is Deane was a good coach who came well recomended. He did a great job with the alums. He was highly thought of in the coaching community. He was essentially hired at Dayton and blew them off to come to MU. Despite all of that promise and some initial success when he had O'Neill's recruits, the program spiraled down to the point where his top recruit was not even ranked in the top 25 of his home state. Krunti may have been a wonderful kid but he is emblematic of the deteriorting standards and success at MU under the well regarded Deane. Despite thoughts that a new coach can just keep things going, it is not always the case, there is risk invovled. I thought the point was self-evident.
Hester was the sole recruit of Mike Deane's final class at MU. He played (well, sat) at MU for a season then transferred to Lamar to play for Deane there.
That said, this seems the worst analogy ever. I'm guessing it means that if Buzz leaves MU gets a roster full of Krunti Hesters????
In reality, even during the Dukiet and Deane eras, MU didn't get a bunch of Krunti Hesters.
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Bros,
It ain't the Domers, the Poet, or the Buzzer who are the decision makers, it is the Mrs.
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Bros,
It ain't the Domers, the Poet, or the Buzzer who are the decision makers, it is the Mrs.
Well then somebody needs to get Corey's e-mail address and let her know how valued Buzz is by 95% of our fanbase, and that the other 5% are the same kind of outlier idiots every program has...and it is entirely possible that sometimes those 5% can reside in administrative roles.
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Bros,
It ain't the Domers, the Poet, or the Buzzer who are the decision makers, it is the Mrs.
Ain't that a buzz kill.
And as all of us married guys know, ain't that the truth.
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I still think Buzz only leaves if there's a better job open. I don't see him taking a step backwards and uprooting his family just because of his relationship with the AD. It wouldn't be a good career move with the way he has this program headed.
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Buzz ain't going to upset Corey... and if he does, I'll be second in line to slap him up good, even if it was the prospect of staying in Milwaukee that got her upset.
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I still think Buzz only leaves if there's a better job open. I don't see him taking a step backwards and uprooting his family just because of his relationship with the AD. It wouldn't be a good career move with the way he has this program headed.
Agreed.
According to goose, sultan, et al (respectfully), it was determined last spring, Buzz was fired, but allowed to finish this season. This was supposedly allowed because MU would benefit by also having the season to recruit a coach of similar or better caliber.
Fellas (goose and sultan), if I have mis quoted you, my apologies.
First, I disagree. Why would any institution get rid of someone with the character and track record of Buzz.
I also believe that the BOT is made up of enough alums like us....alums who enjoy the fact that MU's identity is a combination of academic and athletic excellence. No majority of tinfoil's on the BOT.
I believe that there is an issue with bw v LW/SW. Where there is smoke, there is fire.
I also hope that Buzz is smart enough to know he should wait out the tenure of couple of short timers lite SP and LW.
Both LW and SP are book smart dudes. However, they lack the common sense/ability to either respect what Buzz is doing for MU, or hire good PR dudes to cover their tracks.
Every time LW opens his mouth about the ball program, he comes across ass a pompous... Does nothing to diffuse the perceived rift between he and the arguably the best coach since Al.
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Hopefully we can add this to it as well:
Rumor: Buzz actually fired in 2012 but allowed to stay on for 2013 to save face.
Reality: TBD
Rumor: MU administration is downsizing the program.
Reality: MU administration allows Buzz to make huge financial offer to lure Issac Chew from Illinois; hire a former head coach to run "basketball operations;" makes repeated statements about not downsizing the program
Rumor: Multiple players being shown the door over heightened academics standards
Reality: No players leave for academic reasons
Rumor: Buzz being told he can't recruit JUCOs
Reality: JUCO Jameel McKay commits to MU in June
Rumor: Suspension of Todd Mayo imposed on Buzz by administration
Reality: Buzz and Todd say it was Buzz's call, not related to academics
Rumor: Todd Mayo leaves program, not coming back
Reality: Todd Mayo is back
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I've restrained as long as I could, but the conspiracy theories are simply mindblowing. I have no info about the future, and limited about the present.
I just want everyone to remember how much they trust Jeff Goodman when it comes to information on Buzz (and for good reason) and to loosen their neckties a bit. Season is right around the corner.
Also, would there be any interest in a live-blog of the Haunted Hoops scrimmage? We did one last year that worked fairly well and were wondering if we should do it again.
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Also, would there be any interest in a live-blog of the Haunted Hoops scrimmage? We did one last year that worked fairly well and were wondering if we should do it again.
I'd suggest a new thread for that. I think it's a great idea, but might get buried in the BS of this thread.