Question about MU admissions

[NavinRJohnson]

For anyone who may know from experience or otherwise...if you end up on the wait list, any idea how likely you are to ultimately get accepted? Have a friend in that situation now. Apparently roughly 25k applicants for +/- 2000 spots.

[LloydMooresLegs]

For anyone who may know from experience or otherwise...if you end up on the wait list, any idea how likely you are to ultimately get accepted? Have a friend in that situation now. Apparently roughly 25k applicants for +/- 2000 spots.

Love me some MU as much as the next Kool-Aide swiller, but this is way way off--those are Yale like numbers (more like 30,000 apps for the available spots, but close enough).

MU had a 55% acceptance rate last year.

[swoopem]

Tell your friend to try to get into the FFP program, he sounds like a perfect fit.

Oh wait Pilarz decided to cancell it.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

I graduated from high school in 2011 I wanna say it was on the higher end for acceptance rate then. Our class was the biggest undergrad class in MU history. They didnt even have enough dorm rooms for us so I believe since then they started accepting a lesser percentage due to the fact that more people are applying to MU. On the other end of the spectrum I also got into Illinois which has a much lesser acceptance rate.

[mu03eng]

Love me some MU as much as the next Kool-Aide swiller, but this is way way off--those are Yale like numbers (more like 30,000 apps for the available spots, but close enough).

MU had a 55% acceptance rate last year.

Don't know the exact numbers but MU was extremely competitive this year...more so than any time in the last 10 years.

[g0lden3agle]

Tell your friend to try to get into the FFP program, he sounds like a perfect fit.

Oh wait Pilarz decided to cancell it.

This. Why would you eliminate a program that allows kids to prove that they have the chops to go to MU and get a head start on their studies?

[keefe]

This. Why would you eliminate a program that allows kids to prove that they have the chops to go to MU and get a head start on their studies?

Because he wanted Marquette to become known as, "The Scranton of the Upper Midwest"

[ChicosBailBonds]

Tell your friend to try to get into the FFP program, he sounds like a perfect fit.

Oh wait Pilarz decided to cancell it.

Why is this lie perpetuated?  It wasn't canceled.  It was changed.  Big difference.

http://www.marquette.edu/ffp/

http://marquettetribune.org/2012/12/06/news/ffp/

[Jay Bee]

maybe u r needing smarter friends

[g0lden3agle]

Why is this lie perpetuated?  It wasn't canceled.  It was changed.  Big difference.

http://www.marquette.edu/ffp/

http://marquettetribune.org/2012/12/06/news/ffp/

Semantics.  FFP v1.0 allowed students that very likely would not have gotten in otherwise the opportunity a chance to prove themselves to gain admission to the school.  FFP v2.0 no longer provides that opportunity.  Program maintained its name but fundamentally changed. 

I'm not totally sure how FFP v1.0 was "unfair".  Were all students who were waitlisted/not going to get in not provided this opportunity?

[GGGG]

For anyone who may know from experience or otherwise...if you end up on the wait list, any idea how likely you are to ultimately get accepted? Have a friend in that situation now. Apparently roughly 25k applicants for +/- 2000 spots.

Did your friend call the admissions office and have a discussion with a counselor?  They might get a good indication of their status after that.  They also might get an indication of what type of semester they need to put in while still in high school to get off that list.

[keefe]

Why is this lie perpetuated?  It wasn't canceled.  It was changed.  Big difference.

http://www.marquette.edu/ffp/

http://marquettetribune.org/2012/12/06/news/ffp/

What the hell was FFP? I am guessing it was a probationary acceptance deal?

I know Michigan had some legal challenges to set asides for minorities. One response was to implement a probationary program that conditionally accepted students who would otherwise not be considered for admission. I think these kids had an academic year in which to demonstrate the ability to succeed at Michigan. UofM limited the number of credit hours/semester and restricted course selection to core curricula. These students were provided academic support which, in turn, triggered legal problems from mainstream students who wondered why they didn't have similar access.

The problem with messing with standards is that you end up not having standards. While I am not against programs like FFP I would prefer the University establish admission standards then enforce them. Rules work best when everyone knows there are rules. 

[LloydMooresLegs]

Freshman Frontier Program.  Don't know when it started, but it was Chris Farley's ticket into MU. 

A couple of my good friends (roommates when we went off campus) were FFPs.  I'd say calling it probationary admission is about right, but I think the only probation was that they started a few weeks before everyone else and took study skills type classes (and had to pay for the privilege).  Thus, they got to know the lay of the land before the other freshmen showed up, which gave them a leg up socially (which most of them didn't need!).

[warriorchick]

I have no clue why and how FFP was changed, but I am aware that in the past few years they have had an uptick in disciplinary issues and drinking, including a few cases of kids winding up in the hospital with alcohol poisoning.

[keefe]

Freshman Frontier Program.  Don't know when it started, but it was Chris Farley's ticket into MU. 

A couple of my good friends (roommates when we went off campus) were FFPs.  I'd say calling it probationary admission is about right, but I think the only probation was that they started a few weeks before everyone else and took study skills type classes (and had to pay for the privilege).  Thus, they got to know the lay of the land before the other freshmen showed up, which gave them a leg up socially (which most of them didn't need!).

I think that sacrificing your last High School summer was part of the deal at Michigan, too. The kids in this program had to turn up before the Fall term and begin taking courses, including help with improving study habits. The irony is that their classmates for that summer are incoming Michigan athletes who begin taking classes as well. As I say, if there are compelling circumstances in a candidate's background that suggest he can be successful at a university there is no harm in giving them a chance to prove it. Giving up that last summer is a stiff price so they earn it in more than one way.

[real chili 83]

I have no clue why and how FFP was changed, but I am aware that in the past few years they have had an uptick in disciplinary issues and drinking, including a few cases of kids winding up in the hospital with alcohol poisoning.

Specifically with FFP's?

[keefe]

I have no clue why and how FFP was changed, but I am aware that in the past few years they have had an uptick in disciplinary issues and drinking, including a few cases of kids winding up in the hospital with alcohol poisoning.

Hell, that narrows it down to half the guys in McCormick back when the drinking age was 18. Heading into the can on a weekend morning was like visiting a Roman Vomitorium. We had some weak bellied idiot who could only make it as far as the drinking fountain. I would have loved to have caught that guy in the act. He would have been wearing puke for a week.

[warriorchick]

Specifically with FFP's?

Yes.

[keefe]

Yes.

Is this empirical or anecdotal? If it is worse than the general student body it would be a problem. But if it is consistent with the rest of the freshman community should they be punishing these kids for being probationary? I think that would be unfair.

[jsglow]

Back to the original question.  I don't currently know the total number of applications but I am confident that it exceeds 25,000.  Of that, approximately 10 or 11,000 are admitted in anticipation of an approximate 20% yield to get to a Frosh class around 2,000.  Each college's wait list evolves differently as students commit from now through May 1.  Suffice it to say that Admissions tracks the 'Yes' responses it receives over time. Invitations off the wait list can begin at any time but are more likely approaching the May 1 deadline.

A few things a wait list candidate can do.  First, they have received instructions regarding follow-up in their correspondence.  Follow that advice.  It helps if Admissions knows you are still interested.  Second, wait list candidates are invited to the February scholarship competitions.  Winning a scholly in that contest automatically guarantees admission.  Don't say it doesn't happen.  I know of specific examples including in Marquette's most competitive colleges.  Of course the candidate should also start to look at other options in the event a wait list acceptance invitation is not forthcoming.

Hope that all helps.  Good luck.    

[jsglow]

Is this empirical or anecdotal? If it is worse than the general student body it would be a problem. But if it is consistent with the rest of the freshman community should they be punishing these kids for being probationary? I think that would be unfair.

Really keefe?  Your given one shot to demonstrate that maybe some of your HS background should be overlooked and that you've grown and matured from that experience only to demonstrate in a 12-14 week summer that maybe you haven't.  The FFP class understands (or should) they are under close scrutiny as they develop skills to be successful in college.  I'd expect pretty much a zero tolerance policy for that first summer.  Admission to MU is a privilege, not a right.  Over 25,000 specifically asked for the privilege and there's only room to say YES to a limited number. 

Personally, I'd focus my final slots on kids trying to elevate themselves from tough circumstances such as the inner city who might not have the educational background through absolutely no fault of their own.

[keefe]

Really keefe?  Your given one shot to demonstrate that maybe some of your HS background should be overlooked and that you've grown and matured from that experience only to demonstrate in a 12-14 week summer that maybe you haven't.  The FFP class understands (or should) they are under close scrutiny as they develop skills to be successful in college.  I'd expect pretty much a zero tolerance policy for that first summer.  Admission to MU is a privilege, not a right.  Over 25,000 specifically asked for the privilege and there's only room to say YES to a limited number. 

Personally, I'd focus my final slots on kids trying to elevate themselves from tough circumstances such as the inner city who might not have the educational background through absolutely no fault of their own.

I have no idea what applicant pool the FFP is drawing from. I read about a program at Michigan designed to bring in under-represented minorities. As I said a few lines ago, I am much more in favor of having standards and living by them. If, for reasons of demographic balance or whatever, you choose to have a probationary program then the code of conduct should be the same for these kids as they are for the general population. Their probationary status addresses their fitness to succeed in the academic program. A Code of Conduct must be equitable in its application or it will lack integrity.   

I mentioned drinking problems because that is what your wife cited. If you boot kids from a probationary program because they can't handle their liquor I sure hope you are doing the same to kids in the general population who are guilty of the same sins. You and I both know from first-hand observation at Marquette that there have been significant problems with kids drinking to include drunk driving, fighting and sexual assault. I have no problem booting a kid, FFP or otherwise, because he cheats, lies, steals, or does bone headed things because he's blind drunk. But that standard must apply equally to all students. You cannot have tiers in a ethical codes. Fr. Davitt would agree.

[real chili 83]

Kids make mistakes. We all made mistakes during our time at MU.

Nothing to see here.

[forgetful]

I have no idea what applicant pool the FFP is drawing from. I read about a program at Michigan designed to bring in under-represented minorities. As I said a few lines ago, I am much more in favor of having standards and living by them. If, for reasons of demographic balance or whatever, you choose to have a probationary program then the code of conduct should be the same for these kids as they are for the general population. Their probationary status addresses their fitness to succeed in the academic program. A Code of Conduct must be equitable in its application or it will lack integrity.   

I mentioned drinking problems because that is what your wife cited. If you boot kids from a probationary program because they can't handle their liquor I sure hope you are doing the same to kids in the general population who are guilty of the same sins. You and I both know from first-hand observation at Marquette that there have been significant problems with kids drinking to include drunk driving, fighting and sexual assault. I have no problem booting a kid, FFP or otherwise, because he cheats, lies, steals, or does bone headed things because he's blind drunk. But that standard must apply equally to all students. You cannot have tiers in a ethical codes. Fr. Davitt would agree.

Keefe if you hire a guy, because he has great potential, but comes with a lot of baggage.  To mitigate the risk in the hire, you place them on a probationary status...one screw up and they are out.

They miss a company meeting, not a big deal as it didn't affect any clients.  Fire them anyway.  They were not able to live up to the expectations that you placed on them due to the baggage they brought in and you can't risk it affecting the company negatively in case it does happen for a client meeting.

That is the point of a probationary status.

[keefe]

Keefe if you hire a guy, because he has great potential, but comes with a lot of baggage.  To mitigate the risk in the hire, you place them on a probationary status...one screw up and they are out.

They miss a company meeting, not a big deal as it didn't affect any clients.  Fire them anyway.  They were not able to live up to the expectations that you placed on them due to the baggage they brought in and you can't risk it affecting the company negatively in case it does happen for a client meeting.

That is the point of a probationary status.

The difference being in the corporate world you only care about one thing: Job performance. Guy cheats on his wife? His business. Guy screws house pets on the weekend? His concern. Guy drinks like a fish every night? I don't care. As long as he shows up where he needs to be and meets his objectives he's good. (This is very different in the military, however, where honor, integrity, and accountability actually mean something.)

I can't speak for every corporation, or even for every area at GE Cap and PepsiCo. I was in Strategic Planning/Corporate Development at both so we needed very specific skills and certain pedigrees. These were competitive positions so we could be selective. At no time did we do probationary hires. No such thing in that world. And we didn't care about skin tone, genitalia, or what god, demon, or idol the person worshipped. Can the person drive shareholder value aggressively through acquisition, fixed cost leverage, or strategic initiative is all that mattered.

In the academic environment I am open to programs offering opportunity to under-represented groups who would otherwise not be selected for admission. I said this above. The probationary oversight should be differentiated in academic matters only, however. FFP enrollees should have a higher minimum GPA in order to eliminate the probationary tag. After all, the whole point of probation is to prove they belong academically. A mainstream enrollee who doesn't perform to some established standard falls into a probationary status. Like his FFP counterpart, he is given some time to cure that situation and should be expelled if he cannot meet that minimum standard.

I have no objection to FFPs beginning in an academic probationary status. Mainstreamers can end up there too for failing to meet minimum classroom requirements. What I do object to is having separate standards for personal behavior. A Code of Conduct must be universal in its scope and application. Anyone caught cheating or stealing should be booted. Fr Davitt taught us that Situational Ethics are absurd. That is my only objection to what was written above.

[warriorchick]

In the academic environment I am open to programs offering opportunity to under-represented groups who would otherwise not be selected for admission. I said this above. The probationary oversight should be differentiated in academic matters only, however. FFP enrollees should have a higher minimum GPA in order to eliminate the probationary tag. After all, the whole point of probation is to prove they belong academically. A mainstream enrollee who doesn't perform to some established standard falls into a probationary status. Like his FFP counterpart, he is given some time to cure that situation and should be expelled if he cannot meet that minimum standard.

I have no objection to FFPs beginning in an academic probationary status. Mainstreamers can end up there too for failing to meet minimum classroom requirements. What I do object to is having separate standards for personal behavior. A Code of Conduct must be universal in its scope and application. Anyone caught cheating or stealing should be booted. Fr Davitt taught us that Situational Ethics are absurd. That is my only objection to what was written above.

Keefe, FFP has nothing to do with "under-represented" groups. You may be confusing it with EOP (Educational Opportunity Program).  FFP kids as a general rule are middle-to-upper class kids, just like most of the rest of the student body.  I am not sure exactly how they choose kids for that program, but for the most part, they are kids that have the potential to be successful Marquette students, but their high school grades or test scores don't meet the normal entrance requirements.  I am sure a number of these kids were goofs in HS who now claim they have grown up and are ready to be serious about school.

Marquette is, in effect, bending the rules for these kids so they can attend.  I think it would be reasonable to hold them to the letter of the law when it comes to conduct, especially during the summer session.

[reinko]

Keefe, FFP has nothing to do with "under-represented" groups. You may be confusing it with EOP (Educational Opportunity Program).  FFP kids as a general rule are middle-to-upper class kids, just like most of the rest of the student body.  I am not sure exactly how they choose kids for that program, but for the most part, they are kids that have the potential to be successful Marquette students, but their high school grades or test scores don't meet the normal entrance requirements.  I am sure a number of these kids were goofs in HS who now claim they have grown up and are ready to be serious about school.

Marquette is, in effect, bending the rules for these kids so they can attend.  I think it would be reasonable to hold them to the letter of the law when it comes to conduct, especially during the summer session.

Don't think FFP is like this, but colleges have developed programs similar to this, for wealthy families of dumb kids.  I imagine you can guess the reason why.  A well-known university here in Boston created a semester long program for around 30-40 students of wealthy families, where they didn't matriculate as freshman, but went abroad, worked on study skills, took some non-credit bearing courses, and then "accepted" them for Spring semester, thus not having to report tests scores and grades to US News and the like.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Semantics.  FFP v1.0 allowed students that very likely would not have gotten in otherwise the opportunity a chance to prove themselves to gain admission to the school.  FFP v2.0 no longer provides that opportunity.  Program maintained its name but fundamentally changed. 

I'm not totally sure how FFP v1.0 was "unfair".  Were all students who were waitlisted/not going to get in not provided this opportunity?

When someone says a program was canceled and it wasn't, I don't call that semantics.  So the requirements are more stringent, so what. 

I remember growing up in So. Cal and USC had a pretty bad reputation.  It was a school where if you had the money, you got in.  People were buying degrees.  Now, it is one of the toughest schools in the state to get into it.  They clamped down, made it a place of higher academics, improved their academic image tremendously. 

One can argue at MU that its mission should be to educate anyone and everyone.  I don't believe that is the case.  MU also has a fiduciary obligation to be around and that means it needs to continue to educate quality students that are also going to make donations down the road.  The percentages on that ROI are going to mean taking kids with fewer risks.  That may sound cold as there are some great people that came out of the "old" FFP, but it is also a numbers game and I can see why MU would go in that direction.  If the change the standards back, fine....but it will make it more challenging on the $$$ side longer term and academically they will take a hit because admission rates will go up and the pool of people getting in will dilute somewhat as a result of lower scores, etc.  That's the tradeoff. 

[WI inferiority Complexes]

When someone says a program was canceled and it wasn't, I don't call that semantics.  So the requirements are more stringent, so what. 

Current FFP is as similar to the old FFP as the current Big East is to the old Big East.

[jsglow]

Separate and apart from the FFP discussion, there is absolutely no doubt that it is much more difficult to get admitted to MU today compared to even 15-20 years ago much less the nearly 35 since I penned my application.  Today's average MU student is head and shoulders above the average kid back in my day.  I'm fully supportive of that initiative as it demonstrates MU's progression toward becoming a national destination institution.

Still, sometimes I worry about adherence to part of MU's initial mission to educate the uneducated.  As such, I remain fully committed to maintaining and tracking a 'First in family to college' initiative.  Marquette forever changed the trajectory of our family when my dad set foot on campus in 1949.  Those who were once laborers were now corporate leaders, something I remind my kids often lest they forget their roots.

[warriorchick]

Current FFP is as similar to the old FFP as the current Big East is to the old Big East.

Care to elaborate?  Sounds like you know the details.

[keefe]

Keefe, FFP has nothing to do with "under-represented" groups. You may be confusing it with EOP (Educational Opportunity Program).  FFP kids as a general rule are middle-to-upper class kids, just like most of the rest of the student body.  I am not sure exactly how they choose kids for that program, but for the most part, they are kids that have the potential to be successful Marquette students, but their high school grades or test scores don't meet the normal entrance requirements.  I am sure a number of these kids were goofs in HS who now claim they have grown up and are ready to be serious about school.

Marquette is, in effect, bending the rules for these kids so they can attend.  I think it would be reasonable to hold them to the letter of the law when it comes to conduct, especially during the summer session.

Chick

I am not confusing it with anything as I don't know what FFP is/was. My original post simply asked if was similar to a program at Michigan designed to bring in under-represented groups for the objective of providing demographic balance.

With regard to having a Code of Conduct I will always say it must be universal in scope and application. You cannot say there is zero tolerance for the FFP student while the mainstream student gets 2 strikes. Tiered systems reek of Situational Ethics.

Academic performance requirements are different because that is the issue for probationary admission. But the metrics must be clear up front. I am assuming admission for FFPs centers on academic performance in high school and not moral, ethical, or legal issues.

[g0lden3agle]

When someone says a program was canceled and it wasn't, I don't call that semantics.  So the requirements are more stringent, so what. 

I remember growing up in So. Cal and USC had a pretty bad reputation.  It was a school where if you had the money, you got in.  People were buying degrees.  Now, it is one of the toughest schools in the state to get into it.  They clamped down, made it a place of higher academics, improved their academic image tremendously. 

One can argue at MU that its mission should be to educate anyone and everyone.  I don't believe that is the case.  MU also has a fiduciary obligation to be around and that means it needs to continue to educate quality students that are also going to make donations down the road.  The percentages on that ROI are going to mean taking kids with fewer risks.  That may sound cold as there are some great people that came out of the "old" FFP, but it is also a numbers game and I can see why MU would go in that direction.  If the change the standards back, fine....but it will make it more challenging on the $$$ side longer term and academically they will take a hit because admission rates will go up and the pool of people getting in will dilute somewhat as a result of lower scores, etc.  That's the tradeoff. 

It would be really interesting to see some numbers regarding ROI on FFP vs. non-FFP students.  I would hope that those that were admitted through the FFP program had an extra sense of gratitude towards the school for giving them a chance, but that is probably just more my pie-in-the-sky thinking.

I guess it really does all come down to the statement I bolded from you post above.  In my opinion a Jesuit institution such as MU should try as much as feasibly possible to view their students as people rather than investments.  But I can totally see it your way too.

[LloydMooresLegs]

I can only report based on my personal experience with FFP's in the early 80's.  It was a mixed bag at the time, most succeeding (meaning graduating, though a few took longer than 4 years), but a few burning out quickly (one kid who lived on my floor was out after one semester, stoned the whole time and having failed every class).  So, not too unlike the student population as a whole.

My two FFP roommates loved their time at Marquette, and remember it fondly.  One tried engineering, didn't have the horse power for it, but figured out a major he could handle and made it work; the other earned a degree in finance.  Based on their respective families, careers and service to their church and communities, you all would be proud to associate them with MU. 

For them, the FFP was a combination of a wake up call and opportunity.



 

[jsglow]

 

For them, the FFP was a combination of a wake up call and opportunity.
 

+1

[muhoosier260]

Keefe, FFP has nothing to do with "under-represented" groups. You may be confusing it with EOP (Educational Opportunity Program).  FFP kids as a general rule are middle-to-upper class kids, just like most of the rest of the student body.  I am not sure exactly how they choose kids for that program, but for the most part, they are kids that have the potential to be successful Marquette students, but their high school grades or test scores don't meet the normal entrance requirements.  I am sure a number of these kids were goofs in HS who now claim they have grown up and are ready to be serious about school.

Marquette is, in effect, bending the rules for these kids so they can attend.  I think it would be reasonable to hold them to the letter of the law when it comes to conduct, especially during the summer session.

This is all anyone needs to know about FFP. I knew several FFP people at Marquette, all of whom excelled at, and graduated from MU. Getting to know these classmates, they all had minor behavioral or academic issues in high school, but certainly did not have a problematic track record. I did not know anyone from EOP, but encountered several candidates via working the Schroeder Hall desk in the summer. Two completely different entities.