White Privilege at MU

[rocket surgeon]

Rocket

It is funny, but as a rule I am not overly trusting of police. I respect their job and their role in our society a great deal, and on the other hand, I have a fear of them. As a white male, living in an almost all white suburb I find it strange I fear them.

I guess my point is, I understand, to a very, very small degree, the anger others have on the Brown case. That said, I would never paint an entire group of people as being pigs or bad people. The older I get, the more I try very hard not to paint with wide brush.

goose-i fully understand what you mean-my fear, i guess, translates to respect.  i feel if i show them respect, do what they say, take my hands out of my pockets, drop the cell phone, lay down on the ground...whatever they want, i will do until they feel safe with me.  i have nothing to hide.  if i still get roughed up, then the D.A. will have to sort it out with my attorney

  also, i carry.  the first thing i am going to tell them is, i have a gun, show them my permit and tell them where the gun is.  that is an absolute!! 

it seems as though many of these incidents involving the police getting more physical then what apparently is needed, the perpetrators, eventual victims or what have you, do not follow the orders given to them.   

[mu03eng]

I may upset people here, but at least I try to be honest.

I gladly give you the benefit of the doubt in this thread and assume you just read my comment wrong.....

so, please re-read my comment. I did not paint an entire group of people as "pigs", or for that matter, as anything at all. My comment was clear that I was referring specifically to the thug cops in the Sterling Brown incident.

And while some here have, I only wish that good, decent white people would express more outrage over these incidents.

Jockey, here's the problem I have with your overall position on this. You are treating it as fact that this is racism when we have no idea if that is true or not. This is just as likely really bad policing which is really bad and reason for outrage. I'm with you that it probably was racial motivated but based on the militarization and entitlement of police officers I've encountered I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't them just being bad at their jobs/bad attitude.

Regardless of whether racism was involved or they are just really bad at their jobs it still doesn't raise to the level of it being ok to label a group of people by a highly derogatory term. If we're going to fix these types of problems we're going to need allies from the communities that view the use of pigs as highly inflammatory.

[mu03eng]

goose-i fully understand what you mean-my fear, i guess, translates to respect.  i feel if i show them respect, do what they say, take my hands out of my pockets, drop the cell phone, lay down on the ground...whatever they want, i will do until they feel safe with me.  i have nothing to hide.  if i still get roughed up, then the D.A. will have to sort it out with my attorney

  also, i carry.  the first thing i am going to tell them is, i have a gun, show them my permit and tell them where the gun is.  that is an absolute!! 

it seems as though many of these incidents involving the police getting more physical then what apparently is needed, the perpetrators, eventual victims or what have you, do not follow the orders given to them.

Here is the problem I have, this very attitude is what enables the bad actors within the police force. Police are public servants who's job is to engage the public positively if at all possible and enforce law and order as dictated by society. We are enabling police to have a confrontation attitude before there is a need under the guise of "safety" (theirs and/or ours depending on the situation). No person's reaction to an oncoming "encounter" with police should be fear or concern unless you are in a clear violation of laws that are endangering public safety.

If you want to advocate for an approach of respect from the citizen to the police, I wouldn't disagree but it better damn well be mutual respect. I should be respected by police just as I respect them as a condition of them having so much power in "our relationship".

[WarriorDad]

Jockey, here's the problem I have with your overall position on this. You are treating it as fact that this is racism when we have no idea if that is true or not. This is just as likely really bad policing which is really bad and reason for outrage. I'm with you that it probably was racial motivated but based on the militarization and entitlement of police officers I've encountered I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't them just being bad at their jobs/bad attitude.

Regardless of whether racism was involved or they are just really bad at their jobs it still doesn't raise to the level of it being ok to label a group of people by a highly derogatory term. If we're going to fix these types of problems we're going to need allies from the communities that view the use of pigs as highly inflammatory.

Again, THIS.   He has made the conclusion this is racism and has no idea if it is.  This is part of the problem with dialogue in this country.  People judging others without knowing intent.  The same with running the mugshot the other day, immediately labeled by some as racist.  No one knows that. 

[GGGG]

Again, THIS.   He has made the conclusion this is racism and has no idea if it is.  This is part of the problem with dialogue in this country.  People judging others without knowing intent.  The same with running the mugshot the other day, immediately labeled by some as racist.  No one knows that. 

Counterpoint:  people can draw reasonable conclusions based on the evidence at hand.

I think it’s reasonable to suggest that if Brown were white, this would have been a routine interaction that may not have even resulted in a citation.

[mu03eng]

Counterpoint:  people can draw reasonable conclusions based on the evidence at hand.

I think it’s reasonable to suggest that if Brown were white, this would have been a routine interaction that may not have even resulted in a citation.

I agree that it's entirely reasonable and in no way do I fault anyone who assumes there is racist intent. I have trouble assuming 8 cops of mixed races were all racist, but honestly from what I've seen that's a 50/50 proposition at best. I just happen to be a significant believer in Hanlon's Razor.

[Galway Eagle]

Again, THIS.   He has made the conclusion this is racism and has no idea if it is.  This is part of the problem with dialogue in this country.  People judging others without knowing intent.  The same with running the mugshot the other day, immediately labeled by some as racist.  No one knows that.

The issue seems to be the difference between intentional racism and racism resulting from the system.

Regarding the mugshot thing, worth a quick read.

http://soletstalkabout.com/post/115030414880/white-yearbook-photos-vs-black-mugshots-for-the

[rocket surgeon]

Here is the problem I have, this very attitude is what enables the bad actors within the police force. Police are public servants who's job is to engage the public positively if at all possible and enforce law and order as dictated by society. We are enabling police to have a confrontation attitude before there is a need under the guise of "safety" (theirs and/or ours depending on the situation). No person's reaction to an oncoming "encounter" with police should be fear or concern unless you are in a clear violation of laws that are endangering public safety.

If you want to advocate for an approach of respect from the citizen to the police, I wouldn't disagree but it better damn well be mutual respect. I should be respected by police just as I respect them as a condition of them having so much power in "our relationship".

they were disciplined as they should have.  i think most policemen/women do respect the law as well as the guidelines and policies set forth.  you seem to be reacting as if they got away with something, but i could also be mis-interpreting your post as well

[rocket surgeon]

Counterpoint:  people can draw reasonable conclusions based on the evidence at hand.

I think it’s reasonable to suggest that if Brown were white, this would have been a routine interaction that may not have even resulted in a citation.

so, if brown were white(no pun intended)and refused to comply with the policemen's orders, they might have gone out for a beer together then, right?  beer summit?  nice try

[mu03eng]

they were disciplined as they should have.  i think most policemen/women do respect the law as well as the guidelines and policies set forth.  you seem to be reacting as if they got away with something, but i could also be mis-interpreting your post as well

I do think they "got away" with something in that at least one of those officers deserved to be fired. Police serve at the behest of citizens for the betterment of society, we have given them tremendous power over life and livelihood, with that power comes responsibility. Imagine if Mr. Brown were an up and coming lawyer or a shift worker at a manufacturing plant, this event could have resulted in him losing his job through almost no fault of his own.

In my opinion the lead officer failed in his responsibilities, there is no way that a parking citation in which the citizen was at least minimally cooperative should ever escalate to a take down and/or tazing. In this statement, it has nothing to do with race, if Mr. Brown were a mid-50s white dock worker I would have the same opinion. The police officer failed to properly wield his power in a responsible way, he should no longer have that responsibility.

There are plenty of bad cops out there who fail in the responsibility to serve the betterment of the public for all sorts of reasons (racism, bullies, power for the sake of power, etc). I almost don't care why they fail, they have failed and should have that responsibility removed.

[MU82]

so, if brown were white(no pun intended)and refused to comply with the policemen's orders, they might have gone out for a beer together then, right?  beer summit?  nice try

This, right here, is your problem when discussing these issues, rocket.

Obviously, there is no way of knowing for sure what would have happened if Brown had been white.

But intelligent observers of what has gone on in society for years would theorize that the white guy wouldn't have been surrounded by a dozen cops, tazed and hauled away as if he had just kidnapped the Lindbergh baby.

You might want to believe otherwise. That is up to you. Sometimes you seem to suggest that poor, downtrodden, white guys just can't catch a break any more. And you certainly seem incapable of admitting that "driving while black" (or "walking while black" or "standing while black") is a crime in the eyes of far too many cops. Not all cops. Not most cops. But far too many cops.

Until you can wrap your head around that, you will always make dopey statements like this one about the beer summit. Wow.

[GGGG]

so, if brown were white(no pun intended)and refused to comply with the policemen's orders, they might have gone out for a beer together then, right?  beer summit?  nice try

So if your only defense is hyperbole, that shows you don't have much of a leg to stand on.

[GGGG]

This, right here, is your problem when discussing these issues, rocket.

Obviously, there is no way of knowing for sure what would have happened if Brown had been white.

But intelligent observers of what has gone on in society for years would theorize that the white guy wouldn't have been surrounded by a dozen cops, tazed and hauled away as if he had just kidnapped the Lindbergh baby.

You might want to believe otherwise. That is up to you. Sometimes you seem to suggest that poor, downtrodden, white guys just can't catch a break any more. And you certainly seem incapable of admitting that "driving while black" (or "walking while black" or "standing while black") is a crime in the eyes of far too many cops. Not all cops. Not most cops. But far too many cops.

Until you can wrap your head around that, you will always make dopey statements like this one about the beer summit. Wow.

Yep.  Rocket is the personification of the middle class white guy whose somehow become a victim. 

[MU82]

Yep.  Rocket is the personification of the middle class white guy whose somehow become a victim.

Y'all don't know what it's like ...

[rocket surgeon]

So if your only defense is hyperbole, that shows you don't have much of a leg to stand on.

now wait a second-82 just filled a post with hyperbole and you didn't have a problem with that cuz you guys wear the same uniform.  dang man!  my statement was half tongue in cheek and you guys get all kinds of stuff out of it.  if i don't toe your line to the "t", i'm all triple k or something.  i guess i need to use teal a little more often

   this is where 82 should have stopped-period!

   "Obviously, there is no way of knowing for sure what would have happened if Brown had been white."

  have you guys ever heard of the stories where the police interaction with a minority ended well?  probably not because that doesn't fit the media's narrative.  i am sure there are plenty of good stories out there where-here, let's try this one-
   https://www.elitedaily.com/social-news/white-cop-tommy-norman-police-black-communities/1548572

oh, and here's another-

  http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-32295217

  but we all know that we can do this all day long and  i know i am going to get jumped on again.   i am by no means minimizing police-black injustices. they do happen and they are ALL very unfortunate and wrong. my neighbors-husband/wife are police in arizona.   the wife is a police captain in phoenix.  the husband retired from the state and is now a captain for the surprise police dept.  we talk about this from their perspective a lot.  yes, they cringe every time one of these come up.

  do you realize how many police-minority interactions there are each day, each week...the percentage of these types(negative) are very small.  yes, each one involves real people and their lives.  and each one is one too many, but just as in any profession, there are going to be rogue members.

so back to 82-i do not have a problem and you are not going to guilt me into believing your way is the right way.  i will end with this one in which you lost me at-
       "Sometimes you seem to suggest that, downtrodden, white guys just can't catch a break any more. And you certainly seem incapable of admitting that "driving while black" (or "walking while black" or "standing while black") is a crime in the eyes of far too many cops. Not all cops. Not most cops. But far too many cops."
 

[StillAWarrior]

...the husband retired from the state and is now a captain for the surprise police dept...

I'm sorry...I know what you mean...but this just made me laugh.  I shall resist the urge to make an inappropriate joke.

[GGGG]

now wait a second-82 just filled a post with hyperbole and you didn't have a problem with that cuz you guys wear the same uniform.  dang man!  my statement was half tongue in cheek and you guys get all kinds of stuff out of it.  if i don't toe your line to the "t", i'm all triple k or something.  i guess i need to use teal a little more often

   this is where 82 should have stopped-period!

   "Obviously, there is no way of knowing for sure what would have happened if Brown had been white."

  have you guys ever heard of the stories where the police interaction with a minority ended well?  probably not because that doesn't fit the media's narrative.  i am sure there are plenty of good stories out there where-here, let's try this one-
   https://www.elitedaily.com/social-news/white-cop-tommy-norman-police-black-communities/1548572

oh, and here's another-

  http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-32295217

  but we all know that we can do this all day long and  i know i am going to get jumped on again.   i am by no means minimizing police-black injustices. they do happen and they are ALL very unfortunate and wrong. my neighbors-husband/wife are police in arizona.   the wife is a police captain in phoenix.  the husband retired from the state and is now a captain for the surprise police dept.  we talk about this from their perspective a lot.  yes, they cringe every time one of these come up.

  do you realize how many police-minority interactions there are each day, each week...the percentage of these types(negative) are very small.  yes, each one involves real people and their lives.  and each one is one too many, but just as in any profession, there are going to be rogue members.

so back to 82-i do not have a problem and you are not going to guilt me into believing your way is the right way.  i will end with this one in which you lost me at-
       "Sometimes you seem to suggest that, downtrodden, white guys just can't catch a break any more. And you certainly seem incapable of admitting that "driving while black" (or "walking while black" or "standing while black") is a crime in the eyes of far too many cops. Not all cops. Not most cops. But far too many cops."
 

Holding up a few good stories doesn't disprove there is a systemic problem with how many police officers interact with minorities versus white people in the same scenario.

If you don't like your arguments to be jumped on, don't make dumb arguments.  It's really that simple.

[MU82]

now wait a second-82 just filled a post with hyperbole and you didn't have a problem with that cuz you guys wear the same uniform.  dang man!  my statement was half tongue in cheek and you guys get all kinds of stuff out of it.  if i don't toe your line to the "t", i'm all triple k or something.  i guess i need to use teal a little more often

   this is where 82 should have stopped-period!

   "Obviously, there is no way of knowing for sure what would have happened if Brown had been white."

  have you guys ever heard of the stories where the police interaction with a minority ended well?  probably not because that doesn't fit the media's narrative.  i am sure there are plenty of good stories out there where-here, let's try this one-
   https://www.elitedaily.com/social-news/white-cop-tommy-norman-police-black-communities/1548572

oh, and here's another-

  http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-32295217

  but we all know that we can do this all day long and  i know i am going to get jumped on again.   i am by no means minimizing police-black injustices. they do happen and they are ALL very unfortunate and wrong. my neighbors-husband/wife are police in arizona.   the wife is a police captain in phoenix.  the husband retired from the state and is now a captain for the surprise police dept.  we talk about this from their perspective a lot.  yes, they cringe every time one of these come up.

  do you realize how many police-minority interactions there are each day, each week...the percentage of these types(negative) are very small.  yes, each one involves real people and their lives.  and each one is one too many, but just as in any profession, there are going to be rogue members.

so back to 82-i do not have a problem and you are not going to guilt me into believing your way is the right way.  i will end with this one in which you lost me at-
       "Sometimes you seem to suggest that, downtrodden, white guys just can't catch a break any more. And you certainly seem incapable of admitting that "driving while black" (or "walking while black" or "standing while black") is a crime in the eyes of far too many cops. Not all cops. Not most cops. But far too many cops."
 

All right, rocket, you are free to live in your world of ignorant bliss.

I mean, my 92-year-old father-in-law still calls black people "coloreds" - seriously - so I get it; some dogs either can't learn new tricks or don't want to.

Have a good weekend.

[WarriorDad]

Counterpoint:  people can draw reasonable conclusions based on the evidence at hand.

I think it’s reasonable to suggest that if Brown were white, this would have been a routine interaction that may not have even resulted in a citation.

Sure, but that doesn't mean it was racist intentions either.   We treat 90 year old ladies different at stores and boarding planes than 30 year old men with accents (German, American, Australian, Middle East, Honduran, doesn't matter).  Teenagers are treated differently than 50 year olds (forget race, just look at age).  Why?   Ageism?  Racism?  Genderism?     Situations often determine how we act, that is human nature.  That might mean racism, but it doesn't make it absolute which is how he came off with his broad comments.

[Golden Avalanche]

It's a term that is offensive to a large plurality of the group of people to whom it refers.

If you think using offensive terms about other groups is unacceptable,  why would this be any different?

Pakuni did the heavy lifting in answering why it's a stretch to say the two offensive terms are interchangeable in their offensiveness.

One thing I would add is that working to equate arguably the most stigmatizing word in the english language that degrades a person's color (though they had no choice in the matter) with a pejorative insult of a profession in which the members have 100% choice of belonging to the group claiming offense is a fool's errand.

[WarriorDad]

so, if brown were white(no pun intended)and refused to comply with the policemen's orders, they might have gone out for a beer together then, right?  beer summit?  nice try

Probably would have, but no way of knowing for sure.  I see what Jockey and Sultan are saying in the main, but they are painting too broad a brush in my view.  You, however, are doing the same to deny it doesn't happen percentage wise more to the minority community.  There are examples of white guys receiving the same treatment of Mr. Brown, that it appears some here do not want to acknowledge, but instead believe racism is at work with Mr. Brown.  At the same time, the optics of this don't look good and more likely this happens with a black man than a white man, but yes it has happened to white men also.  The pronouncement of racism as the cause without knowing and slurring police officers as a group is my gripe.

[4everwarriors]

Y'all shouldant lose sight of da fact that the sudpect coulda avoided all dis had he parked legally ta begin wit, hey?

[tower912]

Y'all shouldant lose sight of da fact that the sudpect coulda avoided all dis had he parked legally ta begin wit, hey?

So parking illegally is a tase worthy, arrest worthy act?     Would you expect to get tased if you made a 2 AM Walgreen's run and parked illegally in an otherwise empty lot?

[4everwarriors]

So parking illegally is a tase worthy, arrest worthy act?     Would you expect to get tased if you made a 2 AM Walgreen's run and parked illegally in an otherwise empty lot?

See, I never said that did I? What I said was Brown could have avoid all his hardship had he simply parked legally. Is anyone going to dispute that otherwise?




#lawsmatter

[tower912]

What is the customary punishment for illegally parking in a handicapped spot?  What would you expect yours to be?

#makethepunishmentfitthecrime