White Privilege at MU

[Lennys Tap]

It's always so nice, every 3-4 months a police video comes out where the citizens of the US can come together, and with one voice say "I see exactly what I want to see in this video."

Agree. We are, in the end, the sum of our experiences. No one is without bias. The reasonable and well intended will only disagree on the close calls. To the haters there's no such thing as a close call.

[Lennys Tap]

Well I think it is entirely undeniable that if this were a white man, there is zero chance it would have gone this far.  Which is the entire point of the topic.

I don't know that zero is the number but this is a point well made nonetheless.

[StillAWarrior]

I don't know that zero is the number but this is a point well made nonetheless.

I agree.  I think far less likely that this happens with a white person, but possible (which still supports the point being addressed in this thread).

I think another very serious factor that led to this issue is the ridiculous over-response by the police.  I think I counted five additional squads responding.  Even the original officer went to a couple of the others and said he only wanted one back up.  Once there were that many cops around, it seemed to escalate out of control as they wanted to show each other how "in charge" they were.  Despite the fact that the original cop was extremely confrontational from the outset and escalated the situation, I don't necessarily think that this would have happened if there hadn't suddenly been so many cops there.  They seemed to take the attitude, "well, if there are this many of us here, it must be a serious and dangerous situation."  In that context, I think that things might have spun out of control even with a white person.  But, I do think it's less likely.

All that said, I'd really like to know what the original cop said when he called for backup.  Did he mention Brown's race at that time?  Did he know Brown's race?  If the race was mentioned, is that why another five cars showed up?

[MUfan12]

Well I think it is entirely undeniable that if this were a white man, there is zero chance it would have gone this far.  Which is the entire point of the topic.

Spot on.

[MU82]

'82...

I like what you said re rocket surgeon wanting to be fair and measured. Sometimes I don't want to be misunderstood, so I over explain things. Ahem, cough cough......

There are times I can't watch CNN, but that doesn't mean I'm a full-blown InfoWars or Fox devotee. The truth often resides in the middle, and it can be a grind sorting through the partisan mush. I think I am trying to figure this whole thing out, like many of us. I was off-the-spectrum leftist back in the MU day, then I did a bit of a 30-something Dennis Miller pivot to the right, and I'm leveling off a bit in my mid 40s. Trump is clearly a con artist and goon, but you have to admit he's a refreshing con. Haven't we become  a bit too offended as a society? I love Elizabeth Warren,  and think she would be 1o times the President Hillary could ever be, but I chuckled at Orange-wave calling her Pocahontas for the liberties taken on her resume or applications. Yet, when I saw a YouTube video of WWII Navajo Code Talkers being honored at the Trump White House, I was sickened and disgusted beyond belief at the Donald bringing up the Pocahontas slur at such a solemn, amazing presentation by the oldest surviving Code Talker, a brilliant and proud patriotic Navajo who fought for the very nation which put his people on reservations. Trump ceased to be refreshing and amusing to me on that day, and I have a healthy sense of humor.

On the Golf Channel today during the women's NCAA golf championship, they did a feature on a Muslim golfer for Nebraska, and all the grief she was subjected to upon arrival in Lincoln. At first, I'm like, "lose the hijab and watch the insults go away." She didn't wear it as a junior golfer, but chose to embrace it later as a young woman. Her parents are respectable people, and her father loves the game probably more than anyone we know. She speaks softly and respectfully, is a normal college gal, but it is hard to see past the head scarf. Her teammates, in particular a formerly insulated young white woman from a Minnesota HS with a total of 3 non-Caucasians, have really stood behind her and protect her from those with hostile intent. That same teammate brought her to tears with a comforting text when a young male classmate  said in a radio interview that you have to be violent with people that don't embrace American culture.

I am not sure that the Muslim religion is a peaceful religion. I know it is not the religion of radical Islam, but I still have my questions. We all know where this is going with Christianity and pointing Jesuits and Crusaders. But I do know that the only practitioner of Islam I have ever known was a co-worker at a middle school where I taught for a couple years. She was the nicest, most dedicated teacher I have ever met, a true professional. Extremely thoughtful, reserved and so sweet. For her, her religion was simply about modesty, and that's why she chose to wear a partial hijab.

The last thing I want to be accused of is virtue-signalling. I'm a fan of Jordan Peterson, only insofar as he calls out nonsensical gender identification labels and intolerance of Conservative viewpoints on college campuses. I just hope none of us here paint with broad brushes or label our adversaries. Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade, but I really believe we are all way more alike than we are different.

NDC:

You are fairly new here, so mainly I will say that your post is overly political and I'm a little surprised it has survived the mods.

I am not going to refute or agree with anything you say here other than ...

<<Trump is clearly a con artist and goon, but you have to admit he's a refreshing con. >>

I have to admit no such thing. Spanky Dennison is by far the most corrupt person ever to hold the highest office in our land, and it saddens me deeply that tens of millions of Americans were so easily conned by him - and continue to be conned by him.

Congratulations on realizing that "Trump ceased to be refreshing and amusing." It is a big thing to admit, and thankfully many Americans who were conned by him in 2016 are coming to that realization.

Have a good one.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Trump is clearly a con artist and goon, but you have to admit he's a refreshing con. Haven't we become  a bit too offended as a society? I love Elizabeth Warren,  and think she would be 1o times the President Hillary could ever be, but I chuckled at Orange-wave calling her Pocahontas for the liberties taken on her resume or applications. Yet, when I saw a YouTube video of WWII Navajo Code Talkers being honored at the Trump White House, I was sickened and disgusted beyond belief at the Donald bringing up the Pocahontas slur at such a solemn, amazing presentation by the oldest surviving Code Talker, a brilliant and proud patriotic Navajo who fought for the very nation which put his people on reservations. Trump ceased to be refreshing and amusing to me on that day, and I have a healthy sense of humor.

We all have our tipping points.  Calling Nazis and KKK members "some very fine people" for example.

[mu03eng]

You really think those pigs deserved respect? What respect should blacks have for a group of people who have assaulted and murdered them for decades, if not centuries.

And your defense of a poster who always finds blame for the non-white person at all times is astonishing.

This was a simple gang assault by the police. We all know it. The Police Dept. knows it. Why does it hurt so much for some people here to admit I it?

n
Dude, calling the cops in this case pigs, no matter their behavior is totally unproductive and gross. Not cool.

[MU82]

n
Dude, calling the cops in this case pigs, no matter their behavior is totally unproductive and gross. Not cool.

Agreed. Unnecessary.

Kaepernick hurt his case by wearing socks that included depictions of cops as pigs. Name-calling rarely leads to productive discourse.

C'mon brandy! Be better than that!

[mu03eng]

Here are a list of questions I'd really love to see answered:
-The mayor and chief of police say the behavior by the police was inappropriate....where and why? How should they have behaved?
-What punishments have been implemented and why?
-For years, police and the mayor have been crying about police funding and the impact on police response....given that, how is it that within 10 minutes, 8 cops(5 "squads") total were onsite for at most a parking citation?
-As a citizen we are not required to "comply" with the orders of police that aren't impacting the well being of other citizens. Mr. Brown provided identification and responded to initial questioning before deciding to provide no further comment. Why do the police feel that he should be obligated to provide more information or be "more compliant"?
-This was a parking violation, what probable cause did the police have to do more than just issue a citation?

[MU82]

Here are a list of questions I'd really love to see answered:
-The mayor and chief of police say the behavior by the police was inappropriate....where and why? How should they have behaved?
-What punishments have been implemented and why?
-For years, police and the mayor have been crying about police funding and the impact on police response....given that, how is it that within 10 minutes, 8 cops(5 "squads") total were onsite for at most a parking citation?
-As a citizen we are not required to "comply" with the orders of police that aren't impacting the well being of other citizens. Mr. Brown provided identification and responded to initial questioning before deciding to provide no further comment. Why do the police feel that he should be obligated to provide more information or be "more compliant"?
-This was a parking violation, what probable cause did the police have to do more than just issue a citation?

Outstanding.

mu03eng for mayor!

[Billy Hoyle]

'82...

Trump is clearly a con artist and goon, but you have to admit he's a refreshing con.

I hear Jeffrey Dahmer was a nice murderer. I mean, he gave his victims dinner before killing him and often made them unconscious before drilling holes in their head to kill them He was a refreshing murderer.

Seriously, dude?  "He's a con artist and criminal but hey, he's a good dude, give him the benefit of the doubt."  Another type of the "fine people on both sides", eh? 

[Babybluejeans]

I hear Jeffrey Dahmer was a nice murderer. I mean, he gave his victims dinner before killing him and often made them unconscious before drilling holes in their head to kill them He was a refreshing murderer.

Seriously, dude?  "He's a con artist and criminal but hey, he's a good dude, give him the benefit of the doubt."  Another type of the "fine people on both sides", eh?

Speaking of, where's old Results-Are-All-That-Matter Keefer today? Maybe he got lost in there with all the Results he thought were coming.

[MU82]

Here is a very hopeful op/ed from Isaac Bailey, a member of the Charlotte Observer editorial board. He is a black guy who regularly writes about racial issues.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/opinion/editorials/article211729294.html

[NorthernDancerColt]

I hear Jeffrey Dahmer was a nice murderer. I mean, he gave his victims dinner before killing him and often made them unconscious before drilling holes in their head to kill them He was a refreshing murderer.

Seriously, dude?  "He's a con artist and criminal but hey, he's a good dude, give him the benefit of the doubt."  Another type of the "fine people on both sides", eh?

Wow, you're pretty naive to think no politician ever made promises that he or she had no intent of delivering on. The smart money is on you being duped several times, apparently without you ever admitting it.  I could name the former leaders tucking their napkins in their shirt and enjoying you with some fava and a nice chianti, but I don't stoop so low. Wow, equating voters with murder victims, and a sitting President with a serial killer. Those on the right who shamefully dehumanized President Obama have nothing on you.

[StillAWarrior]

Here is a very hopeful op/ed from Isaac Bailey, a member of the Charlotte Observer editorial board. He is a black guy who regularly writes about racial issues.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/opinion/editorials/article211729294.html

The fact of the matter is that this is probably far more common than interactions that turn violent.  Everyone would do well to remember that.

Edited to add:  Because of the tone of this and other threads, I feel compelled to preemptively add that this is not a defense of police in any particular instance; this is not a denial of white privilege in general; and this is not a denial that there are some serious problems with police interactions with the public in general, and with black men in particular.  It simply is to point out that the overwhelming majority of interactions with police are uneventful.

[NorthernDancerColt]

We all have our tipping points.  Calling Nazis and KKK members "some very fine people" for example.

You know damn well what he meant. My best friend was basically a saint, the greatest guy I've ever known. He died from cancer two years ago. He attended several Pro-life rallies, where he pleaded with people on his side not to use terms like "baby killers" and "murderer".

This just in......there are azz-clowns on each side of every political debate, and there are fine people on each side. My whole post was intended to get people to stop painting people into a corner. So much for tolerance.

Smug post assailing my "tipping point" as failing your knee-jerk test. But I don't take offense. I dismiss it as the province of politics, a brutal game where once rational people revert to their lowest common denominator. And I said that about Trump from Day1, as he is the master at it. I didn't vote in the last election as I grappled with the "lesser of two evils" thing to the point of exhaustion. But I'm painted into his corner. Congrats.

[Its DJOver]

You know damn well what he meant. My best friend was basically a saint, the greatest guy I've ever known. He died from cancer two years ago. He attended several Pro-life rallies, where he pleaded with people on his side not to use terms like "baby killers" and "murderer".

This just in......there are azz-clowns on each side of every political debate, and there are fine people on each side. My whole post was intended to get people to stop painting people into a corner. So much for tolerance.

Smug post assailing my "tipping point" as failing your knee-jerk test. But I don't take offense. I dismiss it as the province of politics, a brutal game where once rational people revert to their lowest common denominator. And I said that about Trump from Day1, as he is the master at it. I didn't vote in the last election as I grappled with the "lesser of two evils" thing to the point of exhaustion. But I'm painted into his corner. Congrats.

Not trying to single you out because you're not the only one who has politicized this thread, but what is the point? If you go meet with someone in person like your friend did, meaningful discussions can happen and can lead to change, but fighting behind a keyboard essentially has a zero percent chance of changing someone's mind, and can only lead to increased pettiness.  If you're really dead set on getting into a fight on the internet, go to a discussion board specifically built for politics, not one that actively discourages political discussion.  Once again, you're not the only culprit of this, just the most recent.

[NorthernDancerColt]

NDC:

You are fairly new here, so mainly I will say that your post is overly political and I'm a little surprised it has survived the mods.

I am not going to refute or agree with anything you say here other than ...

<<Trump is clearly a con artist and goon, but you have to admit he's a refreshing con. >>

I have to admit no such thing. Spanky Dennison is by far the most corrupt person ever to hold the highest office in our land, and it saddens me deeply that tens of millions of Americans were so easily conned by him - and continue to be conned by him.

Congratulations on realizing that "Trump ceased to be refreshing and amusing." It is a big thing to admit, and thankfully many Americans who were conned by him in 2016 are coming to that realization.

Have a good one.

MU82,

Many here missed the point of my post. I don't think you did, and your tone is always respectful, if sometimes a bit cautious. Don't worry, I'm not a curled up rabid dog with a Trump branding tucked under my tail. I am an open book who sometimes reveals too much. I was lauding your take on rocket surgeon's measured fairness. Now, back to my book on Hillary's KURU disease, which she contracted from years of spirit cooking and cannibalism.

Politics, circa 2008-2018: the art of asinine, cartoonish demonization of your opponents to achieve your desired ends.

I started my definition with the year 2o08, because as any sentient being knows, the level of dehumanization faced by President Obama from the moment he took office was sickening and unprecedented.

[NorthernDancerColt]

Not trying to single you out because you're not the only one who has politicized this thread, but what is the point? If you go meet with someone in person like your friend did, meaningful discussions can happen and can lead to change, but fighting behind a keyboard essentially has a zero percent chance of changing someone's mind, and can only lead to increased pettiness.  If you're really dead set on getting into a fight on the internet, go to a discussion board specifically built for politics, not one that actively discourages political discussion.  Once again, you're not the only culprit of this, just the most recent.

No, you're absolutely right. I saw a couple posters getting attacked for posting their opinions on a sensitive manner. I went into a diatribe to illustrate how complex, fragile, and disjointed the tapestry of life can be. That none of us truly know anybody's true colors. Even when we do, we shouldn't judge people. Many of us are still trying to figure out where we stand, and if you talk to me about one issue I may seem off-the-spectrum leftist, while another makes me look like a Breitbart adherent.  Every discussion is inherently political, to some degree. Off-season boredom, coupled with a sensitive topic and board-bullying led me to an ill-advised post. Guilty as charged.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

You know damn well what he meant.

Yes, he meant exactly what he said. 

I'd call it a dog whistle for his base, except a dog whistle is meant to be something only they can hear.  In this case, he said it, he meant it, and he wanted everyone to hear it.

But let's retrace:  You gave an example of actions that caused you to change your opinion; I gave a similar example.  It wasn't meant as an attack on you, so not sure how you read it as such.

[rocket surgeon]

Jockey

I try very hard to never read your posts, and wish I had followed that rule tonight. I truly feel sorry for the hate and anger you have in some of your posts.

I 99.9% of the time shy away from hot button topics on here, and always laugh when I see guys laughing about topic getting locked. This is one time I am putting personal lock on a thread.

Again, I am very disappointed in myself for taking the time read your post. I do not know your age, race or religion, but I think I have a pretty good feel of the type of person you are. Good luck, and thanks for making me personally lock a thread.

thank you goose-for the support!  many times when i respond to a post, i do learn from the feedback. sometimes i even temper my opinions and other times, i may even learn something.  whether some here realize it or not, i do try to exercise some humility.  it is unfortunate that some here have such angry, spiteful responses to opinions they may disagree with.  there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone, but it can be done politely, imho of course.

[Jockey]

n
Dude, calling the cops in this case pigs, no matter their behavior is totally unproductive and gross. Not cool.

With all due respect, I disagree Eng. Generally, I kinda take your comments as a default on Scoop. They are always reasoned and steady whether I agree, disagree, or am somewhere in the middle. But we know that Mr. Brown was mocked and assaulted for only one reason - he skin was dark. So, I really feel that this is the time when cops should be called out in the harshest words possible - especially when we know there is going to be almost no accountability from the punishments meted out.

Police have been corrupt as a matter of practice. $21,000,000 has been paid out by the city of Milwaukee over the last 2 1/2 years for police misconduct. Many cities have paid out much more. We, as citizens, must let them know this conduct is no longer acceptable no matter what the climate is in the country. Ever.

Normally when a gang of thugs assault someone, they are called out as such. Police should be treated the same as anyone else - actually, we should expect more from them. They are professionals and highly trained. Our lives are often in their hands. Sadly, the lives of blacks are also often in their hands.

[MU82]

Yes, he meant exactly what he said. 

I'd call it a dog whistle for his base, except a dog whistle is meant to be something only they can hear.  In this case, he said it, he meant it, and he wanted everyone to hear it.

But let's retrace:  You gave an example of actions that caused you to change your opinion; I gave a similar example.  It wasn't meant as an attack on you, so not sure how you read it as such.

This.

Spanky made 4 comments on Charlottesville, 2 without a script, 1 with a semi-script, and 1 a speech written for him that he read from the teleprompter.

The first one, with the semi-script, he made the "many sides" statement and otherwise was quite soft on the KKK and neo-Nazis. It certainly was not a rebuke.

Next came the speech because he was getting heat for his previous comments (and deservedly so). He looked like an American who had been kidnapped by the Taliban and forced to read it at gunpoint. There was never a doubt that he didn't believe a word of it.

Then came 2 political rallies where he basically said, "You know what I said in that speech? Forget it! It was all BS. He said there were very fine people on both sides ... and Richard Spencer and David Duke thanked him for his support.

He is a racist, it's not even questionable. As racist as Nixon, and 10 times as dangerous to our democratic republic.

[Goose]

Jockey

I am far from easily offended, but I find your comments to be offensive. Your lack of general respect is very disturbing to me.

[Jockey]

Jockey

I am far from easily offended, but I find your comments to be offensive. Your lack of general respect is very disturbing to me.

Thank you for your honest opinion.

Yes, what I am saying may be offensive. I won't argue your point as you seem to be a poster with integrity. But it is nowhere near as offensive as what police do to minorities on a daily basis. Should we respect what police did to Brown? Or should we condemn it in the harshest terms possible?

I guess what I am trying to say is that I hope I AM offensive enough to convey how angered I am over this sort of thing happening over and over. Ignoring it hasn't helped, mild anger hasn't helped. It is going to take more.

Every time another police beating, assault, or killing happens, the police apologists come out. Just know I will not be among them.