White Privilege at MU

[MerrittsMustache]

I listened to a great podcast this week about how the black infant/childbirth mortality rate (both mothers and children) is twice as high as white.  Even accounting for education level...in fact, a black mother with an advanced degree is still more likely to die in childbirth than a white woman with a high school education.

Why?  The podcast chalked it up to white privilege.  Black women aren't listened to by their doctors when they have legitimate concerns (the podcast profiled a woman who had all the symptoms of a really serious condition, but docs thought her complains of headaches were "made up" or overblown).  They also said that black women are far more likely to meet their delivery doc IN delivery than white women.

So yeah, white privilege extends into the womb too.

I don't pretend that white privilege doesn't exist. It most definitely does, but this example seems somewhat ridiculous.

Chalking something up to white privilege based on the profile of one woman who happened to be black? That's a bit of a stretch. I'm sure there are women of every race who have similar experiences of doctors not taking their concerns seriously. My sister-in-law (who's white) finally switched OBs because she didn't feel as though hers was listening to her.

In terms of not meeting the doctor, is the claim that doctors won't see their minority patients for regular office visits? Or are they sending a PA or nurse in their place? If not, I don't get how that related to race. I mean, if someone isn't going to their prenatal check-ups, does that mean her OB is racist? Maybe I'm missing something obvious but I don't follow the logic of that one.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

The Romans indeed behaved splendidly towards their conquered peoples so long as said populations assimilated into mainstream Roman culture. Otherwise, being subject to Rome was a tradition of rape, massacre, slavery, and genocidal eradication.

Any reading of Suetonius, Livy, and especially Tacitus reveals barbarism on an epic scale.   

Cut and paste?

[🏀]

Cut and paste?

Keefe's back?!

[SaveOD238]

I don't pretend that white privilege doesn't exist. It most definitely does, but this example seems somewhat ridiculous.

Chalking something up to white privilege based on the profile of one woman who happened to be black? That's a bit of a stretch. I'm sure there are women of every race who have similar experiences of doctors not taking their concerns seriously. My sister-in-law (who's white) finally switched OBs because she didn't feel as though hers was listening to her.

In terms of not meeting the doctor, is the claim that doctors won't see their minority patients for regular office visits? Or are they sending a PA or nurse in their place? If not, I don't get how that related to race. I mean, if someone isn't going to their prenatal check-ups, does that mean her OB is racist? Maybe I'm missing something obvious but I don't follow the logic of that one.

I can't say it as well as the podcast did.  It was Friday's "The Daily" https://www.nytimes.com/podcasts/the-daily .  Only about 20 minutes.

I'd also like to point out, that just because there is white privilege, does not necessarily mean that someone is racist.  It's more about the implicit biases we all carry (even minorities...as the famous Clark baby doll experiment showed).  The pod quoted studies that show that doctors think that black patients in general have higher pain tolerances and need less medication than white patients, despite there being no medical reason for this.  That is an implicit bias that doctors carry...but that doesn't mean the doctors are racist.

[StillAWarrior]

I can't say it as well as the podcast did.  It was Friday's "The Daily" https://www.nytimes.com/podcasts/the-daily .  Only about 20 minutes.

I'd also like to point out, that just because there is white privilege, does not necessarily mean that someone is racist.  It's more about the implicit biases we all carry (even minorities...as the famous Clark baby doll experiment showed).  The pod quoted studies that show that doctors think that black patients in general have higher pain tolerances and need less medication than white patients, despite there being no medical reason for this.  That is an implicit bias that doctors carry...but that doesn't mean the doctors are racist.

Tangentially related:  as the father of four children, experience has taught me that they have differing pain tolerance.  A single complaint of pain from one of my kids will get an extremely different response than repeated complaints from another.  Obviously, it's not an issue of loving one more than the other.

So, I'll agree, to an extent, that assuming blacks as a group have higher pain tolerance might not technically be "racist."  But I would think it is definitely problematic and should not influence care.  My reaction to my kids is well-informed and based upon specific interactions and observations relating to each of them as individuals.

[SaveOD238]

I can't say it as well as the podcast did.  It was Friday's "The Daily" https://www.nytimes.com/podcasts/the-daily .  Only about 20 minutes.

I'd also like to point out, that just because there is white privilege, does not necessarily mean that someone is racist.  It's more about the implicit biases we all carry (even minorities...as the famous Clark baby doll experiment showed).  The pod quoted studies that show that doctors think that black patients in general have higher pain tolerances and need less medication than white patients, despite there being no medical reason for this.  That is an implicit bias that doctors carry...but that doesn't mean the doctors are racist.

Thought I should cite my sources on this one: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/04/04/do-blacks-feel-less-pain-than-whites-their-doctors-may-think-so/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b32b7ec5f05e

[mu03eng]

I don't pretend that white privilege doesn't exist. It most definitely does, but this example seems somewhat ridiculous.

Chalking something up to white privilege based on the profile of one woman who happened to be black? That's a bit of a stretch. I'm sure there are women of every race who have similar experiences of doctors not taking their concerns seriously. My sister-in-law (who's white) finally switched OBs because she didn't feel as though hers was listening to her.

In terms of not meeting the doctor, is the claim that doctors won't see their minority patients for regular office visits? Or are they sending a PA or nurse in their place? If not, I don't get how that related to race. I mean, if someone isn't going to their prenatal check-ups, does that mean her OB is racist? Maybe I'm missing something obvious but I don't follow the logic of that one.

It's hard to say if it's white privilege or not, but it's really more about identifying that individuals and groups have biases for all sorts of reasons and more often than not they aren't obvious at the individual level. In the scenario represented, the doctors had biases that impacted patient care, addressing that issue is important.

[Billy Hoyle]

I don't pretend that white privilege doesn't exist. It most definitely does, but this example seems somewhat ridiculous.

Chalking something up to white privilege based on the profile of one woman who happened to be black? That's a bit of a stretch. I'm sure there are women of every race who have similar experiences of doctors not taking their concerns seriously. My sister-in-law (who's white) finally switched OBs because she didn't feel as though hers was listening to her.

In terms of not meeting the doctor, is the claim that doctors won't see their minority patients for regular office visits? Or are they sending a PA or nurse in their place? If not, I don't get how that related to race. I mean, if someone isn't going to their prenatal check-ups, does that mean her OB is racist? Maybe I'm missing something obvious but I don't follow the logic of that one.

There may be some white privilege involved here, but when it comes to the reality of medicine in the US today. More often than not it's doctors following the instructions of insurance companies.  I had to go to a doctor three times before I could get a MRI ordered for a suspected (and subsequently confirmed) herniated disc, and it was only after I kept hounding her for on.  The insurance company didn't want to pay for it, that's what it comes down to more than anything. 

[mu03eng]

There may be some white privilege involved here, but when it comes to the reality of medicine in the US today. More often than not it's doctors following the instructions of insurance companies.  I had to go to a doctor three times before I could get a MRI ordered for a suspected (and subsequently confirmed) herniated disc, and it was only after I kept hounding her for on.  The insurance company didn't want to pay for it, that's what it comes down to more than anything.

Well and doctors not necessarily looking at the total picture (i.e. optimizing patient outcomes vs what the best solution is from a doctor's perspective). My wife has a number of patients who get surgery to fix a problem but because of other factors (patient is obese, has other orthopedic issues, lives the 4th floor of an apartment, etc) they are actually worse off than if they had pursued other remedies. As a society we almost never understand the bigger picture.

[Lennys Tap]

Kurt Vonnegut wrote a short story about the end of privilege in America. Called "Harrison Bergeron", it is set in 2081, the year in which everyone finally is equal. Thanks to the 212th, 213th and 214th amendments, "smart" privilege, "good looking" privilege and "talented/athletic" privilege (the final, most stubborn of the privileges) have been eliminated. The Handicapper General's minions implant loud radios in the brains of the smart, force the beautiful to wear grotesque masks and impose various handicaps on the graceful and athletic. The point? True "equality" comes at a high price that almost no-one would be willing to pay. Don't get me wrong - I hate discrimination and realize this country still has tons to do to level the playing field. But some of the stuff in this thread seems to me be looking for the smallest grievances that might divide us.

[Mutaman]

Keefe's back?!

 

[Babybluejeans]

Kurt Vonnegut wrote a short story about the end of privilege in America. Called "Harrison Bergeron", it is set in 2081, the year in which everyone finally is equal. Thanks to the 212th, 213th and 214th amendments, "smart" privilege, "good looking" privilege and "talented/athletic" privilege (the final, most stubborn of the privileges) have been eliminated. The Handicapper General's minions implant loud radios in the brains of the smart, force the beautiful to wear grotesque masks and impose various handicaps on the graceful and athletic. The point? True "equality" comes at a high price that almost no-one would be willing to pay. Don't get me wrong - I hate discrimination and realize this country still has tons to do to level the playing field. But some of the stuff in this thread seems to me be looking for the smallest grievances that might divide us.

I think this is a completely relevant point to mention. PC culture can go too far. But I also think this thread has stayed pretty consistent with a single object of discrimination: race. And that ain’t about political correctness. Given the nation’s original sin, and then what has shamefully followed it (especially Jim Crow, whose echoes reverberate everywhere), race equality shouldn’t get lumped in with that kind of satire - nor did Vonnegut intend it to.

[Lennys Tap]

I think this is a completely relevant point to mention. PC culture can go too far. But I also think this thread has stayed pretty consistent with a single object of discrimination: race. And that ain’t about political correctness. Given the nation’s original sin, and then what has shamefully followed it (especially Jim Crow, whose echoes reverberate everywhere), race equality shouldn’t get lumped in with that kind of satire - nor did Vonnegut intend it to.

Don't disagree at all. We have a history to overcome and need to be vigilant. That said, I don't want true progress to be sidetracked by arguments that divide over what are (IMO anyway) rather minor, sometimes even beside the point complaints about "privilege".

[tower912]

There are minor, silly, trivial gripes.  Race generally isn't one of them.

[GGGG]

Don't disagree at all. We have a history to overcome and need to be vigilant. That said, I don't want true progress to be sidetracked by arguments that divide over what are (IMO anyway) rather minor, sometimes even beside the point complaints about "privilege".

I don't think they're minor.  I think they're important because it points out the everyday situations that racial minorities have to deal with.  We have mostly overcome the large, institutional battles over race.  But it's the nagging everyday ones that need to be dealt with.  Again, just keeping quiet about them doesn't help solve them.

I just think it's important to not throw stones when having these conversations and by-and-large that has been the case in this thread.

[WarriorDad]

Similar to the Starbucks incident, another African American targeted this time at a Cheesecake Factory in Miami.  There is a twist this time, but if we are going to be a fair society, this cannot happen either.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/05/15/cheesecake-factory-apologizes-after-report-black-man-being-harassed-wearing-maga-hat/611475002/

[GGGG]

Ugly story with a cool ending.  Police basically telling the woman to STFU.

https://www.theroot.com/white-woman-called-the-cops-on-black-real-estate-agent-1826044836

[jesmu84]

Similar to the Starbucks incident, another African American targeted this time at a Cheesecake Factory in Miami.  There is a twist this time, but if we are going to be a fair society, this cannot happen either.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/05/15/cheesecake-factory-apologizes-after-report-black-man-being-harassed-wearing-maga-hat/611475002/

I read the original story from The Daily Wire. I'm not sure how that is anything even in the same zip code as the Starbucks incident. Has nothing to do with privilege, race, etc

[mu03eng]

Ugly story with a cool ending.  Police basically telling the woman to STFU.

https://www.theroot.com/white-woman-called-the-cops-on-black-real-estate-agent-1826044836

Seems to be a trend (or at least a previously hidden trend is surfacing) of people calling the cops on minorities for no good reason. Glad this one turned out decently but the cops need to spend a little more time telling people to STFU with stupid stuff generally.

[mu03eng]

I don't think they're minor.  I think they're important because it points out the everyday situations that racial minorities have to deal with.  We have mostly overcome the large, institutional battles over race.  But it's the nagging everyday ones that need to be dealt with.  Again, just keeping quiet about them doesn't help solve them.

I just think it's important to not throw stones when having these conversations and by-and-large that has been the case in this thread.

Saw an interview with Kareem Abdul Jabar last night, and he was addressing this type of stuff and I thought he really made a good point. When issues like this are brought up he thought it important that those who bring it up not do so as if its an accusation and those being informed not receive it as an accusation. It was a very insightful point about how you deliver/receive a message being almost as important as the message itself.

[Pakuni]

Seems to be a trend (or at least a previously hidden trend is surfacing) of people calling the cops on minorities for no good reason. Glad this one turned out decently but the cops need to spend a little more time telling people to STFU with stupid stuff generally.

I'd guess it's less a trend and more a result of everyone carrying around a phone with video camera these days to record these events.

[Billy Hoyle]

I read the original story from The Daily Wire. I'm not sure how that is anything even in the same zip code as the Starbucks incident. Has nothing to do with privilege, race, etc

when you're dealing with the biggest bunch of snowflakes in the world (you know, the kind who destroy products they've already bought to make a political statement) it's worse than the Starbucks incident x1000.  Besidesm the employees were promptly fired.

[mu03eng]

I'd guess it's less a trend and more a result of everyone carrying around a phone with video camera these days to record these events.

I'm guessing that having video at the ready didn't precipitate these types of events. I suspect they have always gone on but we now "notice" them because people are posting them to the internet. Hence an existing trend is exposed versus a whole new trend starting.

[Spotcheck Billy]

I'd guess it's less a trend and more a result of everyone carrying around a phone with video camera these days to record these events.

If only these folks would learn to shoot cellphone video in landscape instead of portrait mode. 

[Pakuni]

I'm guessing that having video at the ready didn't precipitate these types of events. I suspect they have always gone on but we now "notice" them because people are posting them to the internet. Hence an existing trend is exposed versus a whole new trend starting.

Yes, that's what I'm saying (perhaps less artfully). These types of incidents have always occurred. We just know about them now because there's readily available video evidence.