NL Central Pissing Match - 2010

[NCAARules]

Exactly. With the Yankees looking up at the Red Sox's roster right now, they'll be getting squirrley.

But aren't the Yankees kind of boxed in with Teixeira at 1st?

[TallTitan34]

But aren't the Yankees kind of boxed in with Teixeira at 1st?

Prince is a DH, not a first baseman.

[TallTitan34]

Say what you want about the Twins, but they haven't ever won anything, They are good enough to come out on top of the AL central 50% of the time or so, but once they get into the playoffs, those prospects turned major leaguers simply aren't good enough. BTW, let's not pretend they are entirely homegrown anyway. Carl Pavano, J.J. Hardy, Delmon Young, Jim Thome, Orlando Hudson, Delmon Young...these are not products of the farm system.

You are the first person I've ever seen to crap on the way the Twins do things.

[NCAARules]

Prince is a DH, not a first baseman.

Good point. For some reason, I thought the Yankees were fine with moving Posada to the DH in the not too distant future. But if they keep him at C, then that spot would need filling.

Eventually, though, I would expect Prince to sign a contract at 1B pay, not DH pay.

[NavinRJohnson]

You are the first person I've ever seen to crap on the way the Twins do things.

I'm not crapping on it, but "the way the Twins do things" is also a bit of a myth. They have had plenty of homegrown talent and will continue to do so(as have/will the Brewers), but they have also done plenty to augment that talent via trades and FA. Beyond that, they last won an AL (and WS) championship 20 years ago, and they have won exactly 1 playoff series in that time.

My response is more to the sentiment that the Brewers are giving up the future with a deal like this. Its what it takes to try to compete for something. They had everything they gave up in the trade in the system last year, and they had one of the worst pitching staffs in the league. Upgrading that pitching comes with a price. They could hang onto the prospects and look forward to several more years of sub-.500 baseball. Just as with the Twins, where would they have been without the likes of Carl Pavano, Delmon Young . O-dog, Thome...Trades and FA are a must of you want to win. If you want something of value, you have to give up something of value.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

Say what you want about the Twins, but they haven't ever won anything

It was a decade (2001-2010) in which the Twins had nine winning seasons and produced an average record of 89-73. There were six division titles, as well as a Game 163 loss to the White Sox in 2008.

They have also won two World Series.  I am not a Twins fan by any stretch but facts are facts.

[MerrittsMustache]

I'm not crapping on it, but "the way the Twins do things" is also a bit of a myth. They have had plenty of homegrown talent and will continue to do so(as have/will the Brewers), but they have also done plenty to augment that talent via trades and FA. Beyond that, they last won an AL (and WS) championship 20 years ago, and they have won exactly 1 playoff series in that time.

My response is more to the sentiment that the Brewers are giving up the future with a deal like this. Its what it takes to try to compete for something. They had everything they gave up in the trade in the system last year, and they had one of the worst pitching staffs in the league. Upgrading that pitching comes with a price. They could hang onto the prospects and look forward to several more years of sub-.500 baseball. Just as with the Twins, where would they have been without the likes of Carl Pavano, Delmon Young . O-dog, Thome...Trades and FA are a must of you want to win. If you want something of value, you have to give up something of value.

I understand what you're saying about players "raised" within the organization, but the big difference is that the Twins rarely package their prospects for one big-name player who can help them immediately. They typically trade their big-name, soon-to-be rich players in exchange for someone else's prospects. Or they trade their home grown players in order to fill a hole (Gomez for Hardy, Garza for Young). Also, Pavano, Hudson and Thome were hardly marquee FAs when the Twins signed them. They had a huge impact on the team's success but these guys weren't getting multi-year, 8-figure offers from the Yankees or Red Sox.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

(Gomez for Hardy, Garza for Young).

Don't forget about Bartlett in the trade for Young, an important piece......Young had a good year last year at the plate but there were plenty of rumors of the Twins trading before last year because of their overloaded outfield and his despicable/hilarious way of playing left field....he is definitely a liability in the outfield.

[NavinRJohnson]

Or they trade their home grown players in order to fill a hole (Gomez for Hardy, Garza for Young).

Isn't that what the Brewers just did? Outside of the Grand Canyon, there may not be a bigger hole than the Brewers' rotation last year.

For this year at least while they still have Fielder, they have the lineup to compete. After this trade, it appears they may also have the rotation to compete. The latter simply doesn't happen if they hang onto all their prospects and continually wait for a tomorrow that never comes.

[jmayer1]

Every article I have read on this trade has been basically glowing about what the Brewers did.  Lorenzo Cain and Escobar are nice players, but will never be all-stars; as Cain doesn't do any one thing especially well and despite Escobar's range, he will never do anything more at the plate than hit a very empty .270 at best. Jeffres has an electric arm but without a better array of pitches, is destined for a spot in the bullpen; not to mention that he's one strike away from a lifetime ban.  Ordozzi played A ball last year and is at least 3 years away from the majors. It's very hard to project out that far on him.  The Brewers have a nice young nucleus now and there is no reason for them to continue looking to the future, they spent a better part of 25 years doing that in between 1982 and 2008.  They scored the 4th most runs in the NL last year and have arguably the 2nd best rotation in the NL now behind the Phillies.  This and the Marcum deal make all the sense in the world at this point.  If they lose Fielder, Greinke, and Marcum in the next 2 years, they'll have extra draft picks to help fill the void in the farm system that these deals have made. Going in to last year, I don't think many people had SF winning the World Series, despite their great pitching, due to their tepid offense; you just never know.

[GGGG]

When the Brewers traded for Sabathia a couple of years ago, there were a number of people upset that they mortgaged the future by trading away Matt LaPorta.  And while he may turn out to be a decent player, I can't imagine that those same people are lamenting that move given what happened in 2008.

I've been a Brewer fan most of my life, and one thing always is the case...the fandom always judges future prospects as better than they actually are.  Honestly, Braun and Fielder are the only ones to live up to the hype.  Even solid players like Rickie Weeks were thought to have potential wildly beyond the reality.

Time is now.  This is a great trade.

[copious1218]

and have arguably the 2nd best rotation in the NL now behind the Phillies. 

Really?  Maybe I'm not giving this new rotation enough credit but I would take Philly, San Fran, and cincy ahead of them for sure and could make arguments for LA, Stl, Florida, and Atlanta.

[MUfan12]

Really?  Maybe I'm not giving this new rotation enough credit but I would take Philly, San Fran, and cincy ahead of them for sure and could make arguments for LA, Stl, Florida, and Atlanta.

Greinke and Gallardo are really good. Wolf is a good #4 starter. For me, the whole thing kinda hinges on Marcum. If he's as good as he was in the AL East, their rotation will be excellent.

Still not crazy about Narveson as the fifth starter, but this rotation paired with their potent offense could be really, really good.

[jmayer1]

Really?  Maybe I'm not giving this new rotation enough credit but I would take Philly, San Fran, and cincy ahead of them for sure and could make arguments for LA, Stl, Florida, and Atlanta.

That's why I said arguably.  Philly is clearly the best, then there are a bunch of other teams vying for 2nd in my opinion, but I don't think Cinci or Atl is in that group.

'10 WAR (per fangraphs) of projected top 4 starters in '11 (for those that didn't make a full slate of starts, I projected their '10 WAR to 28 starts)

Philly   22.20
LA   15.93
Stl   15.30
Milw   15.00
Fla   14.90
SF   14.81
Atl   11.38
Cinci   10.92

I realize that's making quite a few assuptions but that's the best measure I could think of.

[jmayer1]

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=olney_buster&id=5946049

Buster Olney's thoughts on the best rotations in baseball.

If you don't have insider:

1. Phillies
2. Giants
3. A's
4. Rays
5. Red Sox
6. Brewers
7. Tigers
8a. Braves
8b. Cardinals
10a. Dodgers
10b. White Sox

[TallTitan34]

Greinke and Gallardo are really good. Wolf is a good #4 starter. For me, the whole thing kinda hinges on Marcum. If he's as good as he was in the AL East, their rotation will be excellent.

Marcum will be solid.  He is a stud.

[wadesworld]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Milwaukee-Brewers-reach-agreement-with-Takashi-Saito-122710

Saito is old, but he's pretty darn good.  With Axford and Bradock already in the bullpen, this looks to really shape that part of the pitching staff up.

[🏀]

Blah, looks like the Cubs just got Garza. Gave up a good deal of the farm.

unnatural carnal knowledgeing Cubs.

[JWags85]

Blah, looks like the Cubs just got Garza. Gave up a good deal of the farm.

fracking Cubs.

Their minor league player of the year and their minor league pitcher of the year, plus their SS of the future for Garza?  Hendry can't overpay for FAs this year cause Ricketts wont let him, so he is now overpaying with prospects?  I'll wait to see what the actual deal is, but I was less than pleased when I read what the Rays would get.

[🏀]

Their minor league player of the year and their minor league pitcher of the year, plus their SS of the future for Garza?  Hendry can't overpay for FAs this year cause Ricketts wont let him, so he is now overpaying with prospects?  I'll wait to see what the actual deal is, but I was less than pleased when I read what the Rays would get.

It's not good. Not good at all.

[MarquetteFan94]

It's not good. Not good at all.

We'll see how it pans out but I wouldn't call it a bad trade.  The Cubs get a top of rotation guy who, at least until now, has been healthy.  They've had plenty of "can't miss" prospects in the past so I guess I'd rather get a proven player.  Castro is our SS of the future at 20 yrs old and Soto is only six months older than Chrisnos (sp?) so I'm not worried about losing him or Lee.  I think Guyer will be good but, again, no guarantees.  Time for Cashner to step up too.

[Rollout-the-Barrel]

Plus Cubs control Garza for 3 years before free agency. 

[TallTitan34]

Watch out Brewer fans!  The Cubs just resigned Reed Mantle Johnson!

[reinko]

Looks like Rickie will be staying in MKE for the next 4-5 years.

4 years, 38.5, club option for 5th, pushing it to 50.

From a Brewer fan, pretty fair, like his bat and speed, and he has become a better fielder as well.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2011/news/story?id=6128467

[Mobot]

Do the Brewers have the worst infield in all of baseball?

1B Fielder
2B Weeks
SS Betancourt
3B Casey McGehee