Scholarship table
Brother Cheeks:As a "more seasoned" Warrior fan, I could not disagree with you more. I'll concede that it is time to move away from Al (and stoutly agree with Brother Goose on this matter) but to suggest that we cannot be a blue blood again is absurd on its face.Your comment is akin to looking to the New York Yankees and saying an aspiration goal of having a team like they did in the 1950s is absurd. The notion that the New York Yankees will be World Champions every year but three probably is absurd but the notion that they commit to the best farm system, best training and development, best coaches and best Big League players is not. That, my brother, is the goal I would hope Marquette would aim for in college basketball.Second, for you young whippersnappers, it was not all seashells and balloons during the McGuire era either. We did not annually win an NCAA title. There was a team called U-C-L-A that did. Fate, bad luck and guys now known as Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Walton were a major catalyst in UCLA's success. But we never stopped trying and we finally climbed the mountain in 1977.Third, I am so tired of this crap that Marquette can't compete because of the cold weather, the Power 5 or the emergence of other nearby basketball powers that I could scream. If you believe this nonsense, I suggest you turn in your sweater vest, move to College Station and support the idiot who first openly promulgated that theory. What has football got to do with Duke's, North Carolina's or Maryland's success? Not a damn thing!I recall another time when it was said the Green Bay Packers were irrelevant, that certain star players did not want to play in Green Bay and that the franchise's aspirational goal of being what they were in the 1960s was absurd. Something about who would want to play in Green Bay in December? Yeah, there were not massive amounts of new Lombardis in the trophy case in Green Bay, but the team is aspiring to get back to what it once was.Finally, we went 40 years without a return to excellence because of a confluence of factors that had nothing to do with macro factors in basketball. We made a bad decision on hiring Al's replacement. We then hired a string of coaches who were not ready for prime time (yet, in one case) or coaches we did not keep. We tended to shoot ourselves in the foot until someone woke up and realized how important basketball was to university development.Maybe we do not get a Top 15 every year, but we need consistency and we need to strive to get there. To Wojo's credit, that's what he's working toward and I hope he gets there.
College sports there are hundreds of options, and talent isn’t forced to come to your school.
Hate to agree with this guy but this is the big reason for most arguments on here
Technically true, but top talent will not consider hundreds of teams. Top talent ain't going to Grambling and Cornell and Kent State. Sure, it's great when a kid like Curry comes out of nowhere to be a stud for Davidson (or, more recently, Ja/Murray State), but that's a huge anamoly.Nope, hundreds of teams are not in play for top talent. And top-top-top talent usually will not even consider several dozen teams. I think dgies is saying he wants us to be one of the dozen or so basketball powers that top talent regularly considers -- and fairly regularly chooses.Sure, every season a few teams emerge despite not being among the top dozen programs at recruiting. But that's a more difficult path -- you might even say a more crapshooty one.Like dgies, I'd like to be one of those top dozen. But nice guy that I am, I'd happily accept Marquette being one of the top 2 dozen and take our chances!
I think most people believe this program can do better than it has thus far under Wojo while acknowledging we won't reach the Al days again.
Remember when everyone complained about Crean's inability to recruit bigs? You can't just go down to the corner Walgreen's and find talented 6'10 guys. Likewise, the assumption by some is that there is an infinite supply of coaches better than Wojo beating down the doors to come to MU. There aren't. There are literally 300 programs out there who think there coach can be improved upon. It just isn't so. I still think Wojo has upside. I think this latest recruiting class is huge. But suppose Wojo moves on (far more likely) or moves on. There are no guarantees. Sometimes the choices are between two experienced coaches of middling achievement and on highly thought of assistant. And sometimes the dream coach calls back after the job has been filled.
Sure, under the art of the possible, everything on the planet, could do better. Yes, everyone knows this. Bill Bellicheck could be doing better. We could also do a lot worse.Take a look at Arkansas and Tennessee football....they sure thought things were going to keep chugging along. UCLA football made the big move, so far been a disaster and they are worse...maybe that changes. It's easy to say we can do better because it is a universal truth. The hard part is defining what that is and who the hell you are bringing in that is going to get you there...takes two to tango and there aren't many out there pining to come to Milwaukee for the longhaul to do it. As a reminder, Al wanted out several times and MU blocked him.
It's easy to say we can do better because we have.
Saying we can do better is one thing. I'm with you on that. But things like needing top 15 classes every year. Is setting up ridiculous expectations.
Not only technically true, still true. When you have future NBA or NFL players coming from schools like Navy, Colgate, Murray State, etc...the list gets into the 100's. Grambling State has had plenty of NFL players over the years. Schools like Hofstra, D2 schools, etc. The number of schools that have put players into the pros is large. May not be "top talent" in terms of how they were rated, but very good players that went on to play in the pros.But I'll concede the point that it doesn't happen often, you still have 75 to 100 solid college basketball teams...the P5 conferences alone account for about 60 schools. Whereas the NBA has 30 teams. My point, which I think you know is correct, is that even badly managed or coached pro teams are gifted talent options every year....some talented players have to come there way through the draft. And due to free agency and roster / team limitations, other good players have to land somewhere as they can't all go to a handful of teams. The Greek freak...Milwaukee was a dud for decades in hoops but they took him in the draft. Is he going to Milwaukee without the draft....uhm...highly unlikely. That option doesn't exist in college sports. You also have transfers which you don't have in pro sports. You are under contract, you have to stay unless you are cut. Not the case in college sports where a coach looks at you wrong these days and players leave.Comparing college sports to the Yankees, Packers, Cavaliers or any other pro team with how talent and limited spaces exist is not an appropriate comparison.
Agreed, Wojo's class is a good start. We're losing arguably the greatest scorer in MU history though, as well as Sacar, so that will need to be offset. Hopefully another high quality class will follow soon after, but getting Karim Mane in next year's class would be a massive boon.
Not to speak for dgies, but I don't think he was making a direct correlation between colleges and pros. He was just using them as examples of one-time dynasties that rose from the ashes to be great (or at least highly respected) again. He could have cited UCLA basketball under Harrick, Alabama football under Saban, USC football under Carroll, etc.There is a reason why most of the same schools have been dominating college basketball for years -- they are able to attract top talent year after year after year. dgies wants us to be one of those schools, as do I.Is getting top 15 talent year after year after year realistic for Marquette? Maybe not. But getting it 3 out of 5 years, and good classes the other years -- enough to consistently be a top program -- that might be realistic. Here's hoping!
Can this please get some love? If hilarious Scoop One Liners was a NCAA Bracket, I'd rank this a solidly overrated five seed.
With different rules, different standards, a different conference.....all in the past.Defining doing better isn’t 100% on the court, but totality of the program. This irks some people, especially the just win folks, but they aren’t running the university or setting the guardrails for the program. Thus comparing one regime to another without that lens is not wholly seeing the entire picture.
it doesn't irk anyone, it's just something you bring up to distract from Wojo underachieving on the court.
Remember when everyone complained about Crean's inability to recruit bigs? You can't just go down to the corner Walgreen's and find talented 6'10 guys. Likewise, the assumption by some is that there is an infinite supply of coaches better than Wojo beating down the doors to come to MU. There aren't. There are literally 300 programs out there who think there coach can be improved upon. It just isn't so. I still think Wojo has upside. I think this latest recruiting class is huge. But suppose Wojo moves on (far more likely) or is fired. There are no guarantees. Sometimes the choices are between two experienced coaches of middling achievement and on highly thought of assistant. And sometimes the dream coach calls back after the job has been filled.
When looking at the programs that are that conversation, only a few have transitioned that legacy between coaches like UK, UNC, Kansas. Duke hasn’t done that yet. Indiana was the Bob Knight show. MU was Al. Syracuse is Boheim. Nova is Jay Wright. With all of those coaches, they were at their schools for a long time and took them a long time to win a Natty. A lot of the coaches who win early or were flash in the pans had early success before flaming out. See Crean, Mike Davis, etc. My desire is to have a coach who may not have immediate success but is building a program for the longer term. I would love for a coach to be at Marquette for 20yrs and build upon success. I look at Wojo and I see upside, room to grow but a solid foundation of skills. He might not have had immediate success but that is probably better than immediate. Buzz had immediate and he left in 6 years. Crean made nine but many said his foot was out the door after the final four.