Update: End near for Fighting Sioux mascot?

[WarriorHal]

The Washington Times 2/17/10

By Valerie Richardson

The end of the Fighting Sioux could be near as the University of North Dakota appears ready to abandon its mascot over calls of racism despite a petition drive by local tribe members to preserve the school's nickname and logo.

Supporters from the Standing Rock Sioux want to collect at least 600 signatures before the next tribal council meeting in March.

"We just want the people to have their say," said Archie D. Fool Bear, one of the petition organizers. "It's not up to 17 people on the [tribal] council, it's up to the entire reservation to decide. A whole lot of people have told us, 'Get that petition going, we'll sign it.'"

Time, however, is running out.

The North Dakota University System board could rid itself of the controversy by retiring the nickname and logo as early as Thursday's February meeting.

Last month, both UND's Chancellor Bill Goetz and UND President Robert Kelley abandoned their neutral stances on the issue by coming out against keeping the Fighting Sioux nickname.

Under NCAA rules, universities may keep their Indian mascots, nicknames and logos as long as they receive the permission of the namesake tribe, which in UND's case consists of two tribes — the Spirit Lake Sioux and Standing Rock Sioux.

The Spirit Lake Sioux tribal council gave its blessing in September but Standing Rock Sioux leaders have long opposed the nickname. That changed in October, when the tribe elected a new chairman and several new council members who favor the nickname, but a formal granting of permission has been slow to come.

Chairman Charles Murphy has indicated the council doesnt want to be rushed into a decision.

The limbo leaves the University of North Dakota as the last campus with an unresolved Indian nickname. In 2005, the NCAA issued its decision against Indian nicknames and since then the rest of the 19 schools on its list either switched mascots or received tribal permission, said NCAA officials.

"The reality is the NCAA says the tribe can either give their consent or not give their consent; it is in their ball court," said state Board of Higher Education President Jon Backes, according to the Grand Forks Herald. "We have spent a great deal of time and effort trying to cultivate that and get it to a resolution. We haven't succeeded at this point.

"I think we've spent enough time and effort. … Should they choose to give consent, we'll find out about it."

Even if the board does vote to retire the nickname, the issue isn't expected to disappear. A group of Spirit Lake Sioux have filed a lawsuit challenging the university's authority to get rid of the nickname before the NCAA's November deadline. That case is expected to be heard by the state Supreme Court in late March.

"I wish they would respect us enough to wait for the lawsuit," said Eunice Davidson, a Spirit Lake Sioux and member of the tribe's Committee for Understanding and Respect, which brought the case.

Mrs. Davidson said the Fighting Sioux nickname is actually a source of pride on the reservation, citing her son and grandson's love of the school's hockey team as a motivator for continuing their education.

"That's what kept them in school — they wanted to play for the Fighting Sioux," Mrs. Davidson said.

Other tribal supporters of the nickname argue that UND already has permission to use the Fighting Sioux. In 1969, Sioux tribal leaders held a naming ceremony and pipe ceremony at UND giving the university the right to the nickname.

That pact cant be broken, although NCAA officials dont seem to realize this, Mr. Fool Bear said.

"All the spiritual people I've talked to, all the elders, including my mother, who died recently, said, 'Once it's been done, you can't undo it," Mr. Fool Bear said.

The Fighting Sioux nickname and logo, he said, confer much-needed respect and recognition on the Sioux nation.

"Youve got the other side jumping up and down and saying, 'Its racist!'" he said. "And I respect their opinion, but were stuck out here on a small reservation. We've already been annihilated by the government. This [nickname] is telling people, 'Hey, we're still here. We're strong. And we're going to be here for another 200 years.'"

Copyright 2009 The Washington Times, LLC

[Benny B]

Now you got me all fired up again - probably shouldn't have read this (ignorance is bliss as they say).

I'm part Irish, and I find ND's logo racist and offensive.  Why isn't the NCAA and ACLU standing up for my minority voice?

I also descend from people who worked at ACME and I find "Packers" offensive.

Not to mention that I also have family members who worked in the mines and I find "Badgers" offensive.

Seriously.... where does this end?

[LAZER]

"Youve got the other side jumping up and down and saying, 'Its racist!'" he said. "And I respect their opinion, but were stuck out here on a small reservation. We've already been annihilated by the government. This [nickname] is telling people, 'Hey, we're still here. We're strong. And we're going to be here for another 200 years.'"

Perhaps the most interesting quote I've read thus far regarding this issue

[77ncaachamps]

As a male sports fan, I find the RISD mascots - Nads (HK) and Balls (BK) - offensive to my manhood...since they suck (no pun intended)!

[MUBurrow]

an interesting trend that I think bears upon the debate is that the more specific Native American mascots and nicknames have been, the better the chance the nickname survive.  Cases such as the Fighting Sioux or the Seminoles allow the particular school to seek out the approval of the relevant tribal leadership.  However general terms like Warriors or Indians are more often changed, because they generalize and group often very distinct tribal affiliations or racial groups together. 

[GGGG]

an interesting trend that I think bears upon the debate is that the more specific Native American mascots and nicknames have been, the better the chance the nickname survive.  Cases such as the Fighting Sioux or the Seminoles allow the particular school to seek out the approval of the relevant tribal leadership.  However general terms like Warriors or Indians are more often changed, because they generalize and group often very distinct tribal affiliations or racial groups together. 

Warriors is a bad example because outside of Marquette volunteering to give up the name, I can't think of an instance where someone with that nickname got rid of it.  Certainly, no one has been forced to give it up.

But yeah, you are correct.  My guess is that the UND administration just wants this all to go away so they can move on.

[MUBurrow]

good point, warriors is a distinct case in that the nickname does not refer to a Native American history whereas the mascot was a racially divisive image. I can't really think of any comparable examples where a name did not necessarily evoke race whereas the mascot chosen did.

[MU B2002]

good point, warriors is a distinct case in that the nickname does not refer to a Native American history whereas the mascot was a racially divisive image. I can't really think of any comparable examples where a name did not necessarily evoke race whereas the mascot chosen did.

Illinois Fighting Illini

[MUBurrow]

the Illini refers to a confederation of Native American tribes based in the area which became Illinois.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Now you got me all fired up again - probably shouldn't have read this (ignorance is bliss as they say).

I'm part Irish, and I find ND's logo racist and offensive.  Why isn't the NCAA and ACLU standing up for my minority voice?

I also descend from people who worked at ACME and I find "Packers" offensive.

Not to mention that I also have family members who worked in the mines and I find "Badgers" offensive.

Seriously.... where does this end?

Because you're a white guy and therefore you cannot understand what racism means  (I shouldn't put this in teal because there are a large number of people in this country that actually believe this)

[MU B2002]

the Illini refers to a confederation of Native American tribes based in the area which became Illinois.

Yes I understand.  I was referring to people's discomfort over "Chief Illiniwick"(sic) as an example of people having an issue over a mascot and not the name.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Warriors is a bad example because outside of Marquette volunteering to give up the name, I can't think of an instance where someone with that nickname got rid of it.  Certainly, no one has been forced to give it up.

In fact, the exact opposite happened.  The University of Hawaii ADOPTED the name Warriors.   

[MUBurrow]

Yeah, Hawaii is an interesting case because there, it is implied that the general name applies to the particular Native tribe.  Hawaii actually maintains closer ties to its Native American heritage than even particularly named schools (FSU, etc).  I guess all of these cases are so particular to the circumstances it is difficult to look at them in the vacuum.  Illinois for example, I think would have been in hot water even without Chief Illiniwek because the nickname refers particularly to a tribe. After getting the necessary approval, it just so happens their mascot was so egregious that the conflict wasn't over.

[LAZER]

Could Marquette have dropped the mascot and Warrior icon and just simply kept the nickname?  Or even switch the logo to a different type of Warrior maybe one that's closer to MSU's Spartan or the old Golden State Warrior.  I know it wouldn't have been ideal, but I think it would have been much better.

[BrewCity83]

Could Marquette have dropped the mascot and Warrior icon and just simply kept the nickname?  Or even switch the logo to a different type of Warrior maybe one that's closer to MSU's Spartan or the old Golden State Warrior.  I know it wouldn't have been ideal, but I think it would have been much better.

Yes.  But Fr. DiUlio didn't want to.

[bma725]

Could Marquette have dropped the mascot and Warrior icon and just simply kept the nickname?  Or even switch the logo to a different type of Warrior maybe one that's closer to MSU's Spartan or the old Golden State Warrior.  I know it wouldn't have been ideal, but I think it would have been much better.

No.

[Litehouse]

Could Marquette have dropped the mascot and Warrior icon and just simply kept the nickname?  Or even switch the logo to a different type of Warrior maybe one that's closer to MSU's Spartan or the old Golden State Warrior.  I know it wouldn't have been ideal, but I think it would have been much better.

This is exactly why the switch was so stupid.  We could have just kept Warriors and switched the logos and everything would have been fine.  Now we sit here 16 years later still arguing about it.

[Benny B]

Could Marquette have dropped the mascot and Warrior icon and just simply kept the nickname?  Or even switch the logo to a different type of Warrior maybe one that's closer to MSU's Spartan or the old Golden State Warrior.  I know it wouldn't have been ideal, but I think it would have been much better.

This was also brought up during the 2005 "revisiting."  The response the administration gave was along the lines of "the name is forever tied to the image at Marquette."

[ChicosBailBonds]

No.

We will always respectfully disagree on this.

The Warriors in the NBA used to have an indian mascot and now almost no one knows that was the case.  People can dissasociate with the linkage quite easily, especially in time.  That was the decision that should have been made, but we went the coward way out of it.


The Warriors in the NBA had the Indian mascot for decades and yet people don't associate Warriors to Indians now.  Some of the logos below for the Philadelphia Warriors and San Francisco Warriors.  Just one example of many.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

We will always respectfully disagree on this.

The Warriors in the NBA used to have an indian mascot and now almost no one knows that was the case.  People can dissasociate with the linkage quite easily, especially in time.  That was the decision that should have been made, but we went the coward way out of it.


The Warriors in the NBA had the Indian mascot for decades and yet people don't associate Warriors to Indians now.  Some of the logos below for the Philadelphia Warriors and San Francisco Warriors.  Just one example of many.

It's a fair example, but it's also unfair because pro fans seem to "get over it" more than a college alumni. 

I don't see anybody screaming about wanting to to be the Bullets. Why not? Well, because pro fans (especially basketball) don't seem to have the strong emotional ties that college fans have.

As far as MU goes, I agree that changing to a knight logo would have been the prudent thing to do.

BUT...BUT... let's examine all of the hand-ringing about the nickname and logo. IF MU had kept the Warrior nickname and lost the Indian logo, you can bet there would still be some pissed off people.

People will say that they wouldn't be pissed if MU had simply changed the logo... but let's face it, A LOT would still be very angry because this is an emotional topic (college memories) multiplied by the political overtones (PC vs anti-PC).

Probably never should have gone away from Hilltoppers...

[GGGG]

We will always respectfully disagree on this.

The Warriors in the NBA used to have an indian mascot and now almost no one knows that was the case.  People can dissasociate with the linkage quite easily, especially in time.  That was the decision that should have been made, but we went the coward way out of it.

See the "We Are Marquette T-Shirt" thread to show why we will not be able to disassociate with the imagery.  We have people downloading old Native American logos to make t-shirts.  (Believe me...I am not condemning those who are doing it...just that it proves the point that bma is making.)

[Litehouse]

See the "We Are Marquette T-Shirt" thread to show why we will not be able to disassociate with the imagery.  We have people downloading old Native American logos to make t-shirts.  (Believe me...I am not condemning those who are doing it...just that it proves the point that bma is making.)

But that's because there's no alternative.  If MU had used different imagery, the name would become associated with the new imagery.

[BrewCity83]

See the "We Are Marquette T-Shirt" thread to show why we will not be able to disassociate with the imagery.  We have people downloading old Native American logos to make t-shirts.  (Believe me...I am not condemning those who are doing it...just that it proves the point that bma is making.)

That's because MU is not giving us an acceptable non-Indian Warrior image that we can all embrace.  So we old-timer Warrior lovers are going overboard the other non-PC way just to maintain our link to the Warriors as our nickname.

EDIT:  Litehouse, you beat me to it

[GGGG]

But that's because there's no alternative.  If MU had used different imagery, the name would become associated with the new imagery.

Maybe...  I don't know.

[GGGG]

That's because MU is not giving us an acceptable non-Indian Warrior image that we can all embrace.  So we old-timer Warrior lovers are going overboard the other non-PC way just to maintain our link to the Warriors as our nickname.

Sure.  Have fun.  But you are just proving the point that the administration is making.