Update: End near for Fighting Sioux mascot?

[Pakuni]

That's because MU is not giving us an acceptable non-Indian Warrior image that we can all embrace.  So we old-timer Warrior lovers are going overboard the other non-PC way just to maintain our link to the Warriors as our nickname.

EDIT:  Litehouse, you beat me to it

Maybe this is just for sake of argument, but why is it the job of the university to provide you with an alternative when, right or wrong, it has decided that it believes no such alternative exists?

Shouldn't  it be incumbent upon the fans who say a change of imagery is possible and easy to provide examples and, for lack of a better phrase, live that example? Instead, the example most often provided is just the opposite - that those holding firm to the the nickname also are holding firm to the Native American imagery.
I've seen MU fans in headdresses and T-shirts bearing Willie Wampum, but never a knight's gear or St. Joan of Arc.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It's a fair example, but it's also unfair because pro fans seem to "get over it" more than a college alumni. 

I don't see anybody screaming about wanting to to be the Bullets. Why not? Well, because pro fans (especially basketball) don't seem to have the strong emotional ties that college fans have.

As far as MU goes, I agree that changing to a knight logo would have been the prudent thing to do.

BUT...BUT... let's examine all of the hand-ringing about the nickname and logo. IF MU had kept the Warrior nickname and lost the Indian logo, you can bet there would still be some pissed off people.

People will say that they wouldn't be pissed if MU had simply changed the logo... but let's face it, A LOT would still be very angry because this is an emotional topic (college memories) multiplied by the political overtones (PC vs anti-PC).

Probably never should have gone away from Hilltoppers...

I've heard that argument before but I'm not sure I buy it, at least for most fans.  It would be the ultimate compromise.  We'll let the name stay but we're going to change the association and I believe most people would have accepted that as a wise decision.

I've also heard the pro fan argument but also not sure I believe it, though it's definitely out there.  You're right that most fans of pro teams could give a rip about the logo, and quite frankly I don't think MU fans do either.  But if you were to change the Lakers name to something else (name, not logo) the city would burn down.  Dodgers to something else, city would burn down.  At the end of the day, it was the name change that got everyone fired up and I think most pro sports fans would be pissed off to high heaven over name changes.  The Bullets being one of the few exceptions.

[BrewCity83]

We can buy Warrior "retro" gear with Warrior imagery that the school has used in the past.  Anything that is Warrior related that is not Indian related is not readily available, and doesn't really have any connection to the Marquette Warriors that anyone would recognize.  So, since there has never been any official Marquette Warrior logo that is not Indian related, we Warrior lovers are forced to go with anything that is available.  If the school had endorsed a Joan of Arc Warrior, which I wholeheartedly endorse(d), I'd be wearing that Warrior logo on my gear today instead of the Indian Warrior stuff.

[mwbauer7]

Rumor has it UND will be known as the "University of North Dakota Golden Eagles" joining 18 other division I schools known by the same nickname...

[ChicosBailBonds]

Instead, the example most often provided is just the opposite - that those holding firm to the the nickname also are holding firm to the Native American imagery.
I've seen MU fans in headdresses and T-shirts bearing Willie Wampum, but never a knight's gear or St. Joan of Arc.

Of course, because that's the only known official linkage.  But if the mascot changed to a knight, or spartan or whatever, then you would see people wearing those things that associate with that new meaning.  No different than seeing some people now wear Golden Eagles materials. 

It's quite easy to go from one logo to the next when it's the same name.  Something entirely different when you're going from one name to another name, a much more radical transition that will, to use a pun, ruffle some feathers.

[rocky_warrior]

Shouldn't  it be incumbent upon the fans who say a change of imagery is possible and easy to provide examples and, for lack of a better phrase, live that example?

You know, I sold a couple hundred of these "non-offensive" shirts back during the latest warrior fiasco.  So it's pretty clear to me that fans would support such a thing.  Plus I was actually involved in talking with University officials and the GLITC.  There was really a lot of agreement that it was possible.

However, the University basically gave the idea the middle finger twice, so they only have themselves to blame.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I've heard that argument before but I'm not sure I buy it, at least for most fans.  It would be the ultimate compromise.  We'll let the name stay but we're going to change the association and I believe most people would have accepted that as a wise decision.

I'm really torn on this one. I agree with you to a certain extend because a compromise would make the most logical sense. Make the logo a knight, and the issue would have been solved. Right?

BUT, this isn't a "logic" issue for a lot of people, and I think in hindsight its very easy to say "Just change the logo, everybody will be happy with that." People are passionate about this because it hits them in their soft spot (college memories) and in a highly combative spot (What is PC all about? Why do we need it?) I think a lot of people who claim they wouldn't have been mad with a logo change would still have been pretty pissed, and would still be ordering old shirts with the Indian logo instead of the new logo. However, to be fair, people are ordering indian shirts now, so I don't really see a huge difference.

I've also heard the pro fan argument but also not sure I believe it, though it's definitely out there.  You're right that most fans of pro teams could give a rip about the logo, and quite frankly I don't think MU fans do either.  But if you were to change the Lakers name to something else (name, not logo) the city would burn down.  Dodgers to something else, city would burn down.  At the end of the day, it was the name change that got everyone fired up and I think most pro sports fans would be pissed off to high heaven over name changes.  The Bullets being one of the few exceptions.

Your right, there are a handful of franchises where logos and colors mean a lot (celtics, bruins, Yankees, Colts, Canadiens, Packers, etc.). But, there are also a ton of teams where it really doesn't mean much (cannucks, Sixers, Magic, Chargers, Tampa Bay (any of the teams), etc. The passion for tradition is much greater in college sports (for the most part). I mean, how many times has Golden State changed/added logos in the past 10 years? I feel like they are always tweaking something. What about the Cavs? They have about 7 different jerseys, and rarely do they have the same logos.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

No.

The hell they couldn't have. Who was going to say they couldn't?

[RawdogDX]

I just wish they would have figured out something better than gold when they decided to go out of the box.
off the top of my head: apex, angle, boulder, bastion, catalyst, dawn, engine..

Did they ever do a focus group?  There is something outthere that people would have been excited about.

[bma725]

The hell they couldn't have. Who was going to say they couldn't?

It's got nothing to do with disassociating the name the logo, or whatever logo they could have come up with.

There are much larger things at work here.  Things far outside of Al DiUlio's control.  Follow the money.

[bma725]

We will always respectfully disagree on this.

The Warriors in the NBA used to have an indian mascot and now almost no one knows that was the case.  People can dissasociate with the linkage quite easily, especially in time.  That was the decision that should have been made, but we went the coward way out of it.

I'm not talking about inability to associate the name with something other than the old logo. 

As much as the Warrior fans would like it to be, it was not as simple a decision as just changing the logo associated with the name.  There are much larger factors at work here, much more powerful people the Big Al and Sherri Coe-Perkins, much more complicated situations that  made sticking with the nickname then or at any point in the future an impossibility.

[MUEng92]

Shouldn't  it be incumbent upon the fans who say a change of imagery is possible and easy to provide examples and, for lack of a better phrase, live that example? Instead, the example most often provided is just the opposite - that those holding firm to the the nickname also are holding firm to the Native American imagery.
I've seen MU fans in headdresses and T-shirts bearing Willie Wampum, but never a knight's gear or St. Joan of Arc.

At the risk of sounding rude, that arguement just seems silly to me.  A university with millions of dollars available to hire a firm to develop a suitable replacement logo refuses to even contemplate it.  But the fact that Joe and Tony sitting at The Gym haven't come up with a replacement logo and marketed it to the point of full fan acceptance means that one doesn't exist.

Huh?

[MUEng92]

  There are much larger factors at work here, much more powerful people the Big Al and Sherri Coe-Perkins, much more complicated situations that  made sticking with the nickname then or at any point in the future an impossibility.

Care to expand on that?

[bma725]

Care to expand on that?

Not really.  But it's really not that hard to figure out when you look into it.  Look at the condition of the university when DiUlio took over.  Look at the condition of the campus.  Look at the perception and reality of the neighborhood.  Look at how that changed, and what that sort of change requires.  Look at the projects the university considered and finished during that time frame.  Look at who DiUlio actually reports to, and what those people are doing now.

It was never just a decision about a nickname.

[Pakuni]

At the risk of sounding rude, that arguement just seems silly to me.  A university with millions of dollars available to hire a firm to develop a suitable replacement logo refuses to even contemplate it.  But the fact that Joe and Tony sitting at The Gym haven't come up with a replacement logo and marketed it to the point of full fan acceptance means that one doesn't exist.

Huh?

At the risk of sounding rude, you completely miss the point.
Perhaps I need to phrase it better.
Marquette University has taken the position that the Warrior nickname is irrevocably linked, at least in the context of Marquette University, to the Native American imagery. We can agree or disagree on that point as much as we want, but that's the university's position.
That being the case, why would you expect the university to make a concerted effort and "spend millions of dollars" (a fine use of university resources, by the way) to prove itself wrong and create a replacement logo? A logo that, in their opinion, could never erase the nickame's Native legcay. That makes no sense. It's like complaining that the Catholic church doesn't try hard enough to disprove the existence of God. The university has taken a position, and you're complaining that they're not doing enough disprove it.
Do you spend a lot of time, effort and money trying to convince others you're wrong?

Whether a different logo would or would not be accepted to the point that it erases the Native legacy is something I don't know. Nor do I care. It's a freakin' nickname, and for the life of me I can't figure out why so many people are so emotionally invested in it. But that's just me. I'm not saying people who are that invested are stupid or anything of the sort, just that I don't comprehend it. On the list of things that makes MU valuable to me, the Warrior nickname (which was there when I attended) ranks about 10,000th.

So, bottom line, if people want to make the case that the Warrior nickname can be adopted in a way that would, to the university's satisfaction, end links to past imagery, they should go about doing so instead of demanding the university do it for them. And certainly instead of continuing to wear Willie Wampum-ish garb that merely serves to prove the anti-Warrior crowd's point.
Maybe they would succeed, maybe they wouldn't. I have no idea.
But it's not the school's job to do it for them.

[Benny B]

Not really.  But it's really not that hard to figure out when you look into it.  Look at the condition of the university when DiUlio took over.  Look at the condition of the campus.  Look at the perception and reality of the neighborhood.  Look at how that changed, and what that sort of change requires.  Look at the projects the university considered and finished during that time frame.  Look at who DiUlio actually reports to, and what those people are doing now.

It was never just a decision about a nickname.

So changing the nickname has something to do with urban renewal?

Somebody should call the Mayor of Detroit.  All they need is a nickname change.

[Balrogs]

Not really.  But it's really not that hard to figure out when you look into it.  Look at the condition of the university when DiUlio took over.  Look at the condition of the campus.  Look at the perception and reality of the neighborhood.  Look at how that changed, and what that sort of change requires.  Look at the projects the university considered and finished during that time frame.  Look at who DiUlio actually reports to, and what those people are doing now.

It was never just a decision about a nickname.

True - its about ideology also.  That farce of a vote they ran also excluded any nicknames that contained war in it.

Here's what I never understood.  Why don't they replace the seal of the University?  Some individuals may interpret it as Father Marquette commanding that poor native to row the boat to where Father is pointing.  Seems just as or more offensive depending on how you want to spin it.

What always pissed me off was that Wild and the gang should be beating up on their SLU brethren for having the Biliken idol as a mascot.  Goes against the Ten Commandments if you ask me and a fundamental point to make if you're going to try to sit on a high horse about morality.  Dude's a great administrator, but never cared for the I know morality better than you attitude on this issue.

[Jacks DC]

Not really.  But it's really not that hard to figure out when you look into it.  Look at the condition of the university when DiUlio took over.  Look at the condition of the campus.  Look at the perception and reality of the neighborhood.  Look at how that changed, and what that sort of change requires.  Look at the projects the university considered and finished during that time frame.  Look at who DiUlio actually reports to, and what those people are doing now.

It was never just a decision about a nickname.

I don't know why you're being so cryptic.  Its long been speculated that the nickname was changed as the terms of huge donation from a Native American group.  I don't know if this is true and honestly 15 years after the fact I don't lose a lot of sleep over it.  I also don't spend a lot of time wishing horrible things on Tom Crean but that's for another thread.

I do know that immediately after the nickname was changed Marquette built an $8 million athletic facility right next to the Potowatomi casino.  Maybe the two things are related, maybe not.

It is also well-known that donors have offered the University millions to change the name back to Warriors and have been refused.  In 1994, the last year Marquette had the Warrior nickname, it ranked 127th nationally in University endowment rankings.  For fiscal year 2008, it ranked 176th nationally. 

Without anything more than circumstantial evidence, it's too attenuated to say that the University changed the name for money and has reaped a financial windfall ever since.  If you know something more I'd love to hear it.

[bma725]

Lot more money involved than just what went to Valley Fields, and MU did a lot more in that period than just buy and build that facility.  You're on the right track though.

[MUEng92]

So, bottom line, if people want to make the case that the Warrior nickname can be adopted in a way that would, to the university's satisfaction, end links to past imagery, they should go about doing so instead of demanding the university do it for them. And certainly instead of continuing to wear Willie Wampum-ish garb that merely serves to prove the anti-Warrior crowd's point.
Maybe they would succeed, maybe they wouldn't. I have no idea.
But it's not the school's job to do it for them.

Damn tiny itouch keys.  In my original post I meant to type that the university refused (not refuses) to even consider it.  Obviously they aren't going to waste their time and money on an argument they already "won".

I fully understand that the name will never change back. Fine, whatever, I have a lot more important things to worry about.  But that doesn't take away the bad taste in my mouth from the weak arguments used to justify how the change was made.

[robandlaurapetrie]

The Warrior theme is nothing more than a tribute to a legacy of violence and oppression. It is homage to a shameful past that brought a proud people to the brink of extinction.

[GGGG]

I don't know why you're being so cryptic.  Its long been speculated that the nickname was changed as the terms of huge donation from a Native American group.  I don't know if this is true and honestly 15 years after the fact I don't lose a lot of sleep over it.  I also don't spend a lot of time wishing horrible things on Tom Crean but that's for another thread.

I do know that immediately after the nickname was changed Marquette built an $8 million athletic facility right next to the Potowatomi casino.  Maybe the two things are related, maybe not.

It is also well-known that donors have offered the University millions to change the name back to Warriors and have been refused.  In 1994, the last year Marquette had the Warrior nickname, it ranked 127th nationally in University endowment rankings.  For fiscal year 2008, it ranked 176th nationally. 

Without anything more than circumstantial evidence, it's too attenuated to say that the University changed the name for money and has reaped a financial windfall ever since.  If you know something more I'd love to hear it.

If that is the case, the issue could be a perpetual, confidential agreement with the tribe that prevents the Warrior nickname.

It wouldn't matter if anyone offered millions to get the name switched because in that circumstance, they would never change it.  And your endowment figures are misleading.  MU has been directing most of its charitable support into building programs v. the endowment...and everyone's endowment figures have been growing over the last 20 years.

[Benny B]

Lot more money involved than just what went to Valley Fields, and MU did a lot more in that period than just buy and build that facility.  You're on the right track though.

I definitely prefer Golden Eagle to the first choice, Gnew.

[Litehouse]

Here's DiUlio's post-MU bio.  Sent to Ethiopia at the behest of the Pope, now Secretary of Finance for the Jesuits... this conspiracy theory sounds like a job for Dan Brown.

http://www.jesuit.org/index.php/main/about-us/jesuit-conference/conference-staff/secretary-for-finance-and-higher-education/

[BrewCity83]

Maybe DiUlio can get the Potawotamis to build him some stuff in Ethiopia.