Does Home Field not matter to Milwaukee?

[MU Chi_IL]

After watching two of the Cubs V Brewers games it has become clear to me that the fine people of the greater Milwaukee area do not really care to protect home field.  I thought it was bad when folks let Badger fans into our building, but after seeing how many cubs fans were in the stands for a critical series it is clear that dollar is more important to folks.

[Henry Sugar]

<lights fuse.  steps away.>

and seriously, don't buy tickets for Wisconsin fans!

[Hards Alumni]

problem is this:

Cubs fans can drive 1 hour north or 1 hour towards chicago to watch a game, and a lot of them will choose to watch their team where ticket prices are cheaper.  These fans buy the tickets early in the season because they will go no matter what.

Brewers fans have been tormented by seasons of awful teams and are willing to take a "wait and see" approach.  By the time the team is good a good portion of the tickets for those games are sold to Cubs fans who bought their tickets the day they went on sale.

It isn't like you can walk up to Miller Park on gameday of the Brewers/Cubs series and buy anything but a standing room only ticket.  As for people selling off their season tickets, I'm not sure you understand how Milwaukee does their ticket packages.  In Wrigley (I'm told) 3/4 of the tickets are owned by season ticket holders.  In Milwaukee, on the other hand, probably less than 1/4 of the tickets are owned by season ticket holders... and those that are willing to buy those season tickets are usually fanatical and won't sell their tickets to Cubs fans.  BUT, in Milwaukee we have these "9-pack" and "20-pack) ticket packages where you get stated amount of games... you aren't a season ticket holder.  I'm sure some of these people sold their tickets (since selling the cubs series pays for the rest of the tickets for the year). 

I'd say that most of the reason the Brewers can't hold down Miller Park is because of zealous Cubs fans buying up tickets on day one, and a lot of casual Brewers fans find out the games are sold out when they finally decide they want to go.

[RawdogDX]

and becase they are one of the few games that people can scalp so they do.  You should talk to chico, he has tons of ideas on how to keep people from buying tickets.

[MU Chi_IL]

"Brewers fans have been tormented by seasons of awful teams" - I believe Cubs fans created the model for this, but you still see sell outs when they are bad.  It stinks for the brewers that the fans only care when they are good. 

AS long as we are touching on the topic of Wisconsin loyalties, I am also amazed at how easily people seem to have turned on Favre in Wisconsin, the guy was the face of the packers for over a decade and now people are happy to see him go for Rodgers, yikes.  He single handedly beat the bears for my entire time at Marquette and I would welcome him in Chicago.

[bma725]

AS long as we are touching on the topic of Wisconsin loyalties, I am also amazed at how easily people seem to have turned on Favre in Wisconsin, the guy was the face of the packers for over a decade and now people are happy to see him go for Rodgers, yikes.  He single handedly beat the bears for my entire time at Marquette and I would welcome him in Chicago.

There comes a point when the fact that the guy is an a**hat finally outweighs anything he did or may do on the field.  People around here put up with him for 15 years, but the act has finally worn thin.

[Henry Sugar]

Is the support (or lack thereof) from local fans a reason why Major League Soccer stays away from Milwaukee?

[MU Chi_IL]

a**hat or not, he give the pack the best chance to win today, and they were a few plays away from the superbowl last year with the a**hat under center.  The chances in sports to win a title are few and far between so why not open the position up for competition and if Rodgers wins out right all is settled. 

Also, this has to be messing with Rodgers head, which is not what you want in your future QB.

[ChicosBailBonds]

and becase they are one of the few games that people can scalp so they do.  You should talk to chico, he has tons of ideas on how to keep people from buying tickets.

Rick (Schlessinger) is in a tough spot.  I worked with Rick when we were both at the Angels.  He's a very sharp guy.  It's one thing to contain tickets for a MU game with limited seating in an arena, quite another when it's multiple games in a stadium that size.

For MU, they could pull it off if they wanted to get a bit more serious about it.  For the Brewers, they're in a tough spot in a market that has always claimed to be rabid sports fans, but they talk more then they walk....I don't mean that as a slam, it's just reality.  MU, Bucks, Brewers have had some lean years in attendance (yes, some of the teams are doing well now, but unlike some markets Milwaukee has to have a winner for people to show up, if they are competitive but not quite at the top, then fans don't come in droves like they do for some other teams).  This is not exclusive to Milwaukee as many cities are like this, so again it's not a slam.

They already charge more for these tickets and they put them in the mini-ticket plans I believe.  That's about what they are limited with unless they go totally draconian and don't sell them individually without forcing some other anchor to them....like forcing purchase of 2 other games or something.

[JSwarriors08]

As a native Wisonconsonian and a long time Brewers Fan, I am equally as perplexed by the apparent passivity of Brewers fans toward this rivalry.  I get fired up and excited when the Cubs are in town (especially amidst the buzz of a race for the division), but I feel as though I am part of the minority.  I have watched the series from home, and been continuously amazed at the "Let's go Cubbies" chants that plague Miller Park.  I wish Brewer fans would man up and defend their stadium, but it seems they are okay with letting the series pass them by.

I believe this is most probably, as Hards noted, a problem of fan disinterest.  Many Milwaukee fans have only recently started to care again (aka the Bandwagon Effect), and won't rush to buy the tickets until they make sure the Crew is having a good year.  I can't say I approve.

As for Favre, I think the fans (and I speak as one of those affected) turned on him as soon as he said he wanted to go to the Vikings.  I don't blame them.

[muwarrior87]

i believe we are Wisconsinites

[JSwarriors08]

I thought Wisconsonians was more enjoyable to pronounce.   

[jmayer1]

"Brewers fans have been tormented by seasons of awful teams" - I believe Cubs fans created the model for this, but you still see sell outs when they are bad.  It stinks for the brewers that the fans only care when they are good. 

This is the biggest fallacy ever, that the Cubs have such great fans.  I guess you forget that Wrigley only started drawing a lot of fans once the marketing gurus looked to turn it into more of an experience than a baseball game (genius move).  Once Wrigley started being the cool place to be attenance skyrocketed.  Prior to 1984, the Cubs had never averaged more than 21,000 fans a season.  FYI, after rennoavations were completed in the late 20s, Wrigley held 38,396.   Where were all those cubs "fans" in the lean years of the 50s, 60s, 70s, and early 80s?  In fact the 90s and 2000s are the first decades the Cubs have significantly outdrew Milwaukee's baseball team.  In addition, the Cubs haven't outdrawn St Louis (America's best baseball city) in the past 6 decades, including this one, even though they had similar sized stadiums for all years except last year.

All info derived from baseball almanac.com

Cubs average attendance by decade:

1950    11,242
1960    10,900
1970    16,908
1980    21,705
1990    29,594
2000    37,125

Milwaukee average attendance by decade (only years with a team included):

1953    25,831
1960    11,812
1970    13,795
1980    20,766
1990    19,034
2000    27,057

Cardinals average attendance by decade (only years with a team included):  

1950    12,991
1960    17,383
1970    18,973
1980    29,170
1990    32,924
2000    40,677

[jmayer1]

oops, i hit the wrong button 

[JSwarriors08]

+1

[RJax55]

Jmayer-

If people are only fans of the Cubs due to the marketing gurus creation of the "Wrigley Field experience" ... Why then, is half the crowd at Miller Park filled with Cubs fans?

[Henry Sugar]

Jmayer-

If people are only fans of the Cubs due to the marketing gurus creation of the "Wrigley Field experience" ... Why then, is half the crowd at Miller Park almost every road game filled with Cubs fans?

fixed

[jmayer1]

The Cubs have a huge fan base now, nobody is denying that.  I think the reason you see them at other ballparks is people realize it has become awfully hard to get tickets at Wrigley.  As such, those fans that move away tend to go to Cubs games locally or fans that have a tough time getting tickets attend games while on vacation / or make a vacation out of it.  This is a phenomenon you see with most of the big fans bases (red sox, yankees, packers, red wings, cowboys, cardinals...etc).  However, I believe the primary reason the Cubs have gotten such a large fan base (other than the fact they have been on WGN for so long) is that the Cubs have done a phenomenal of marketing the team and making it cool to be a Cubs fan.  It sure isn't the long tradition of winning and you can see that only 25 years ago, fans weren't turning out in droves as they do now.  I would imagine (I can only speculate here due to my age) that you didn't see many Cubs fans showing up at Braves/Brewers games or other team's ballparks before this fan renaissance.  I was attempting to disprove in my prior post the point that the Cubs fans have always supported their team win or lose throughout their history, which is simply not the case, although it has been recently.

[MU Chi_IL]

I guess they have only been really supported for the last 20 years, I stand corrected...but let's consider a couple of things  a) The cubs had no night baseball before 1988 - around the time we see a spike in attendance numbers b) Wrigley Field is the fourth-smallest ball park in the league c) in the 1970 Wrigleyville was a hillbilly hell hole, where you were likely to get the crap kicked out of you d) chicago has a hell of a lot more going on at any given day, as well as a SECOND major league team.

If all it takes is marketing, why don't the Brewers hire some marketing people?  I think the problem is Milwaukee fans don't care to support anything but a winner. 

[jmayer1]

I guess they have only been really supported for the last 20 years, I stand corrected...but let's consider a couple of things  a) The cubs had no night baseball before 1988 - around the time we see a spike in attendance numbers b) Wrigley Field is the fourth-smallest ball park in the league c) in the 1970 Wrigleyville was a hillbilly hell hole, where you were likely to get the crap kicked out of you d) chicago has a hell of a lot more going on at any given day, as well as a SECOND major league team.

If all it takes is marketing, why don't the Brewers hire some marketing people?  I think the problem is Milwaukee fans don't care to support anything but a winner. 

a) That is a valid point.
b) It is now, but it hasn't always been.  Basically the same size as Miller Park.  Also, if the stadium isn't filled to capacity and there are plenty of good seats available, Im not sure how this matters.
c) Its not like the Brewers/Braves play right downtown.  I though Wrigleyville used to be more of a working class neighborhood.  Not sure how this affected attendance too much.  The Sox had seasons where they drew well despite location.
d) That's true, but they also have a hell of a lot more people.

I beleive the Cubs were marketed fanstastcally and a groundswell of support and fan momemntum/bandwagon has led them to their current fan base, not a longstanding tradition of fantastic success and support. 

You act like Milwaukee is a minor league city but yet the Bears don't draw very good compared to other teams, the Sox have had their struggles with fan support when they haven't been good,  and the Bulls didn't draw before MJ.   

[MU Chi_IL]

You act like Milwaukee is a minor league city

Milwaukee is a great city, especially in the summer.  My point was the fair people of Milwaukee don't like to defend home court/field, that is all.  We have beaten that horse in the Badgers in the building threads and it was very clear in this Cubs series. 

[jmayer1]

Milwaukee is a great city, especially in the summer.  My point was the fair people of Milwaukee don't like to defend home court/field, that is all.  We have beaten that horse in the Badgers in the building threads and it was very clear in this Cubs series. 

You're right, the ratio of Brewers to Cubs fans at that series was pathetic.

[TallTitan34]

Jmayer-

If people are only fans of the Cubs due to the marketing gurus creation of the "Wrigley Field experience" ... Why then, is half the crowd at Miller Park filled with Cubs fans?

I completely agree RJax. 

I'd say a good portion of Cubs fans that came up to Miller Park have gone to Wrigley this year as well.  The reason they came up (all on weekdays mind you) is to support the team.

EDIT:  Also I think tickets were still available for Brewer fans.  The CC game had the highest amount of Brewer fans so it was clear they came to see him.  Also I bought all of my tickets the day before the game.  While I chose to buy standing room, seats were still available for other sections of the park.

[TallTitan34]

Where were all those cubs "fans" in the lean years of the 50s, 60s, 70s, and early 80s?  In fact the 90s and 2000s are the first decades the Cubs have significantly outdrew Milwaukee's baseball team.  In addition, the Cubs haven't outdrawn St Louis (America's best baseball city) in the past 6 decades, including this one, even though they had similar sized stadiums for all years except last year.

A. Busch Stadium (the one before the one they are at now) had a capacity of around 52,000 before they put all that stuff in their upper deck around 1998.  Even after they did that their capacity was 49,676.  Even after the Cubs expanded the bleachers at Wrigley in 2006 the capacity only made it up to 41,118.  St. Louis has always had a far larger ballpark.

B.  I will give you though that the Cubs didn't draw well in the 60's, 70's, and 80's but based on your numbers no one did.

C.  I'll never understand Brewers fans claiming the Braves World Series.  By that logic the Cubs won a World Series in 2005.  Same city.  Different franchise.

[🏀]

C.  I'll never understand Brewers fans claiming the Braves World Series.  By that logic the Cubs won a World Series in 2005.  Same city.  Different franchise.

Yep.

[RJax55]

I'd say a good portion of Cubs fans that came up to Miller Park have gone to Wrigley this year as well.  The reason they came up (all on weekdays mind you) is to support the team.

Exactly right ... When are people going to realize the fact that the Cubs just have a ton of fans and who are willing to support the team no matter if they are playing at Wrigley Field or on the road.

Also, the BS about the Wrigley Field experience as the main reason why the Cubs are popular needs to stop as well. The Cubs tremendous growth in attendance and popularity from late 70's/early 80's to now is due to a whole host of factors. Is the Wrigley Field experience a significant part of the equation, yes ... However there are other factors that IMO happen to be just as significant or even more significant.

[jmayer1]

A. Busch Stadium (the one before the one they are at now) had a capacity of around 52,000 before they put all that stuff in their upper deck around 1998.  Even after they did that their capacity was 49,676.  Even after the Cubs expanded the bleachers at Wrigley in 2006 the capacity only made it up to 41,118.  St. Louis has always had a far larger ballpark.

B.  I will give you though that the Cubs didn't draw well in the 60's, 70's, and 80's but based on your numbers no one did.

C.  I'll never understand Brewers fans claiming the Braves World Series.  By that logic the Cubs won a World Series in 2005.  Same city.  Different franchise.

A. Yes, it was bigger.  But I don't see how that matters to the arguement.  The Cubs were drawing badly so there were still plenty of great seats available. 

B.  You're right, attendance has definitely increased since then, thats why I compared the Cubs against other teams, not just raw numbers.

C. That was more in response to the general Milwaukee comment about not supporting their team, and certainly has nothing to do with the Brewers.  I was referring to Milwaukee baseball fans in general, not fans for a specific team.

[muwarrior87]

big difference btwn mke fans talking abt the Braves WS and Cubs fans talking abt the White Sox WS is that Chicago has two teams, and has for a very long time. Each of these teams have a different fan base. In Milwaukee, after the Braves left, there was a bit of a lull before the Pilots came in. There were never two teams in Milwaukee and how many Chicagoans do you know that actually support both baseball franchises?? The people in Milwaukee never supported two Milwaukee franchises at once because there never were two! I'm a Brewers fan and have been my whole life but the Braves have always been one of the teams I've liked as well because of that connection to Hank Aaron and the city as a whole.

[TallTitan34]

Same city.  Different franchise.  No different.

[jmayer1]

Same city.  Different franchise.  No different.

?

[TallTitan34]

The Braves organization won a World Series in Milwaukee.  That's why the Brewers don't have a pennant showing that in Miller Park.

The White Sox organization won a World Series in Chicago.  That's why the Cubs don't have a pennant showing that at Wrigley Field.

Yet Brewer fans claim the Braves World Series win.  Why?  It's the Braves? I don't care if it was your city or not.  If you are going to claim the Braves, Cubs fans could claim the White Sox World Series win.   

My favorite is when the Braves play at Miller Park and the Brewers give out Braves nesting dolls and the Brewers wear Milwaukee Braves.  Hilarious.

[muwarrior87]

Most Brewers fans WERE Braves fans before they moved if they are older. If they are younger fans, they still know the history of the sport in the city.  It's a tribute from the organization to another one that helped this city out in terms of it's baseball support.

[TallTitan34]

Think of it like this.

Do the Mets claim the Brooklyn Dodgers and New York Giants World Series wins?

Do the Philadelphia Phillies claim the wins of the Philadelphia Athletics?

The only team that claims the wins of another franchise in their city besides the Brewers is the Washington Nationals who claim everything from the Washington Senators.  The Senators are now the Twins and the Rangers.

Do you really want to be like the Washington Nationals?

[jmayer1]

The Braves organization won a World Series in Milwaukee.  That's why the Brewers don't have a pennant showing that in Miller Park.

The White Sox organization won a World Series in Chicago.  That's why the Cubs don't have a pennant showing that at Wrigley Field.

Yet Brewer fans claim the Braves World Series win.  Why?  It's the Braves? I don't care if it was your city or not.  If you are going to claim the Braves, Cubs fans could claim the White Sox World Series win.   

My favorite is when the Braves play at Miller Park and the Brewers give out Braves nesting dolls and the Brewers wear Milwaukee Braves.  Hilarious.

Its not Brewers fans claiming the Braves World Series win, it is Milwaukee baseball fans that have supported both teams.  My response was against the claim that Milwaukee fans (not Brewers fans) don't support their team.  I came back and showed how it can be cyclical.  You ignore my response and made some stupid, snide comments.  The only time I have ever reference the Braves was in response to Milwaukee arguments, not Brewers arguments.  

Now, if I said Chicago baseball teams suck, I would have no problem with you referencing the Sox recent title.

If I said the Cubs suck, then obviously you wouldn't bring up the Sox.

If anyone brings up the Braves in a discussion about the Brewers feel free to donkey punch them.  If they bring it up in a discussion of Milwaukee baseball, I would think you could realize that's two different discussions.

You know what I like?  When somebody can't read what has been posted and comprehend it properly.  Hilarious!!

[muwarrior87]

Think of it like this Titan, u aren't listening to anything jmayer or myself are saying. You'll come back w/ your standard, "i understand that, but..." like u do w/ every other argument and not listen to what's being said. MILWAUKEE baseball fans were being bashed so the Braves came into the picture. If just the Brewers were brought up, then fine, no Braves included. But you can't just forget about the years they were here because a number of memorable events happened during that time period. Just like a pig headed, arrogant Cubs fan (not all cubs fans are like this) to ignore the points being brought up and just spin things to be self servicing.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

Think of it like this.

Do the Mets claim the Brooklyn Dodgers and New York Giants World Series wins?

Do the Philadelphia Phillies claim the wins of the Philadelphia Athletics?

The only team that claims the wins of another franchise in their city besides the Brewers is the Washington Nationals who claim everything from the Washington Senators.  The Senators are now the Twins and the Rangers.

I am still rooting for the Arizona Cardinals to win a Super Bowl so Chicago can have another title.

[TallTitan34]

Most Brewers fans WERE Braves fans before they moved if they are older. If they are younger fans, they still know the history of the sport in the city.  It's a tribute from the organization to another one that helped this city out in terms of it's baseball support.

I wouldn't say most Brewer fans.  Considering the team left in what 1965?  1966? I'd say the majority of Brewer fans have only known the Brewers.

Unless you're 65 or older you really have no good recollection of the Braves being in Milwaukee.  I'm not saying they aren't out there but I'd say most Brewer fans are younger than 65.

[muwarrior87]

if they were older...can u read TT. so the older generation in MKE and the surrounding area that are Brewers fans were also Braves fans.  Will you learn how to read everything in it's entirety?? that can't be good for looking over specs and bids for you

[TallTitan34]

Airport project.

I'm just saying no more of this "you haven't one in 100 years" crap if you are going to claim another franchise. 

[jmayer1]

Airport project.

I'm just saying no more of this "you haven't one in 100 years" crap if you are going to claim another franchise. 

wow, still can't quite understand

[IAmMarquette]

Airport project.

I'm just saying no more of this "you haven't one in 100 years" crap if you are going to claim another franchise. 

Whether or not Milwaukee baseball fans claim the Braves has nothing to do with the indisputable fact that the Cubs haven't won a world series since 1908, which, by my math, and I think everyone else's, is 100 years.

[TallTitan34]

Do you guys realize you have never won a World Series?

Yes the Cubs have been around longer but we won 2 World Series in our first 32 years of existance.  You've won zero in your first 39 years.

EDIT:  Also we won the National League 6 times before the American League was even around to have a World Series with.

You're on pace for a crappier century than we are..

[jmayer1]

Do you guys realize you have never won a World Series?

Yes the Cubs have been around longer but we won 2 World Series in our first 32 years of existance.  You've won zero in your first 39 years.

Congratulations on winning the world series when there were about 8 teams.  Those titles are about as relevant today as the packers titles under the direction of curly lambeau. 

All the Brewers have to do is win 2 in the next 93 and they'll be tied with the scrubs. 

[TallTitan34]

You're assuming the Cubs won't win a single World Series in the next 93 years.  Are you really willing to bet that?

Congradulations winning the World Series when there were.... oh wait you didn't.

Can we stop the World Series arguement.  It is the most unintelligent arguement one can make when comparing teams and I am embarassed that I even just took part in it.

[jmayer1]

You're assuming the Cubs won't win a single World Series in the next 93 years.  Are you really willing to bet that?

Congradulations winning the World Series when there were.... oh wait you didn't.

Can we stop the World Series arguement.  It is the most unintelligent arguement one can make when comparing teams and I am embarassed that I even just took part in it.

Talking to you is like talking to my 5 year old cousin because I have to explain everything to you. 

Buddy, if the Brewers win two in the next 93 years they will be tied with the cubs for world series during the team's first 132 years.  I thought the point I was making would be easy to see, seeing as how you started comparing the first 32 & 39 years of the franchises, but I guess I keep overestimating your intelligence.

Why is the world series arguement unintelligent?  The last time I checked the goal of every MLB team at the start of every spring training is to win a world series. THe only thing that is embrassing is that your team has gone ONE HUNDRED years without winning one.

[Henry Sugar]

THe only thing that is embrassing is that your team has gone ONE HUNDRED years without winning one.

I thought this thread was about how embarrassing it was for Brewers fans to be upstaged in their own ballpark.

[jmayer1]

I thought this thread was about how embarrassing it was for Brewers fans to be upstaged in their own ballpark.

Do you have a statistic to measure this?   

[TallTitan34]

Why is the world series arguement unintelligent?  The last time I checked the goal of every MLB team at the start of every spring training is to win a world series. THe only thing that is embrassing is that your team has gone ONE HUNDRED years without winning one.

It's the most basic repsonse any fan can have.  Even a dumb fan can say when's the last time you won a World Series.  A real arguement consists of stats, player comparisions, pitching rotations, batting order, defense, fundamentals.  A true fan can agrue those points.  The World Series argument is whats used by the drunk girl at the baseball game who can't name anyone on either team.  

[TallTitan34]

I thought this thread was about how embarrassing it was for Brewers fans to be upstaged in their own ballpark.

Haha yeah we definately got off topic on this one.  Let's move it to the pissing match thread.

[jmayer1]

It's the most basic repsonse any fan can have.  Even a dumb fan can say when's the last time you won a World Series.  A real arguement consists of stats, player comparisions, pitching rotations, batting order, defense, fundamentals.  A true fan can agrue those points.  The World Series argument is whats used by the drunk girl at the baseball game who can't name anyone on either team.  

I'll agree with that response, however its still fun to say.  I try to provide all the things you noted are key to a real arguement, but more often than not you don't hold up you end of the bargain and simply offer sarcastic comments that may or may not be backed up by facts.

[Henry Sugar]

Do you have a statistic to measure this?   

Henry isn't just about the stats.  I'm into lots of interesting stuff.  Dungeons and Dragons.  World of Warcraft.  Volunteering at church bake sales.  Serving as a Boy Scout Leader.  Juggling.  Magic tricks.  Building model airplanes.  Downloading porn over the internet.  It's a very rich and fulfilling life.  

Someday I even hope to move out of mom's basement.

[TallTitan34]

Someday I even hope to move out of mom's basement.

Hahaha.

Maaaaahhhhh!  The meatloaf!

[jmayer1]

Henry isn't just about the stats.  I'm into lots of interesting stuff.  Dungeons and Dragons.  World of Warcraft.  Volunteering at church bake sales.  Serving as a Boy Scout Leader.  Juggling.  Magic tricks.  Building model airplanes.  Downloading porn over the internet.  It's a very rich and fulfilling life.  

Someday I even hope to move out of mom's basement.

Haha, now thats funny!!!