McMurrow And Buzz's Thinking - Should He Think "Position" or "Best Available?"

[Tugg Speedman]

By taking McMurrow it seems that Buzz took the best available center he could find over the next year.  However, as many other posts highlight, their seems to be 15 to 20 three and four star recruits that have MU on their list.  By taking McMurrow, Buzz only has two spots for left for the 2009 class.  See the wiki for more info.

Do you agree that we need a "center" even if he is an unknown project and it means passing on a three star small forward or a four star undersized shooting guard (Lacy?).  In otherwords, do you agree with the idea that we need to take a center, any center, or should we take the "best available" even if it means we have a glut at some spot on the floor?

Curious about your thoughts.

P.S. The spell-checker wants to change McMorrow to McGuire.  Hopefully this a good omen.

[MR.HAYWARD]

first of all your questioning appears to consider them mutually exclusive of one another.  I t very well maybe that he is both a canter and a very good player in time or in other words a 3-4 star type recruit, it appears other big name programs were getting involved. 

Also it hink the answer is pretty clear ...that he best helps us compete in the BE in 2009-2010 than maybe anyone of these SF's or g's you mention.   As we have so painfully seen over the last three years yu can only be so good in the BE with out size.

[bma725]

By taking McMurrow, Buzz only has two spots for left for the 2009 class.  See the wiki for more info.

Buzz only has one spot for the 2009 class.  We lose James, Mathews, McNeal and Burke.  We gain Williams, Maymon, Buycks and whoever the fourth commit is.

[Tugg Speedman]

Buzz only has one spot for the 2009 class.  We lose James, Mathews, McNeal and Burke.  We gain Williams, Maymon, Buycks and whoever the fourth commit is.

ok, so we have one spot for 2009.  That means it will be a PG.  So the only list of possible recruits that matter is:

 Junior Cadougan - Eric Bledsoe - Michael Dixon - Johnnie Lacy - A.J. Walton - Chris Colvin - Mfon Udofia

The rest, have a nice life.  We no longer have a spot for Jamil Wilson, Roger Franklin, Donte Hill, Kris Dewitt or Shawn Kemp (all guys that were supposedly offered).

Is everyone ok with this?

Second thought, does Buzz know of some potential transfers that will open up more spots?

[postman_11]

ok, so we have one spot for 2009.  That means it will be a PG.  So the only list of possible recruits that matter is:

 Junior Cadougan - Eric Bledsoe - Michael Dixon - Johnnie Lacy - A.J. Walton - Chris Colvin - Mfon Udofia

The rest, have a nice life.  We no longer have a spot for Jamil Wilson, Roger Franklin, Donte Hill, Kris Dewitt or Shawn Kemp (all guys that were supposedly offered).

Is everyone ok with this?

Second thought, does Buzz know of some potential transfers that will open up more spots?

maybe patric hazel will transfer 2 make room for an interior scorer...hopefull cuz Mcmorrow was a wait n see signing that may possibly be a waste of time or time well spent well see. . but i like dan jennings and shawn kemp as interior forces for our team.

[Tugg Speedman]

i like dan jennings and shawn kemp as interior forces for our team.

This is now a physical impossibility.  Even if both called Buzz right now and begged, he doesn’t have a slot and needs to use his last slot for a PG. 

Everyone is now off the board except the handful of PG prospects (listed above).  That’s it, no more.  Stop talking about everyone else, its over now that McMurrow signed.  You might as well talk about how good we’d be if the entire UNC team transferred to MU (Roy to Buzz!) because that has about the same chance as Jennings and Kemp coming.

This is the consequence of signing McMurrow - an unknown project.  Only if Buzz knows for sure that every center and PF prospect are going elsewhere does this signing does make sense.  And even then he might have been better off banking it for a 2010 prospect. 

So, I have to assume that all the center and PF prospects were simply never going to come to MU in the first place,  Update the wiki, you can delete them all, they were never ever a possibility.

[Murffieus]

McMorrow might have been the "best project" available----he's certainly is not the best player available for 2009-10. Generally BPA is the way to go-----as when you go for need you can get forced into picks that you would otherwise not consider as BPA.

[Pakuni]

This is the consequence of signing McMurrow - an unknown project.  Only if Buzz knows for sure that every center and PF prospect are going elsewhere does this signing does make sense.  And even then he might have been better off banking it for a 2010 prospect. 

And going into the 2009-10 season with one player over 6'7" on the entire roster? Brilliant!
I have no idea what McMorrow will become. Either does anyone else here. Could be the next Amal McCaskill, could be the next Greg Clausen.
But your explanation of the only way this makes sense is ludicrous.

Here's how else it could make sense:

- coaching staff believes McMorrow will help the team more than the other post players they were recruiting
- coaching staff believes McMorrow, an athletic 7-foot, 260-pound man, has more upside than a 6-foot-9, 215-pound kid like Shawn Kemp.
- coaching staff believes it's better to have a player locked up and in the fold than to hope a kid from the deep south (Kemp) or east coast (Jennings) will spur decide to come to Milwaukee, especially if they believe those players are of equal value.

What you are arguing, in essence, is the same as suggesting MU should take a pass on Junior Cadougan or Eric Bledsoe if one wants to commit tomorrow, because Abdul Gaddy has expressed some interest.

The bottom line is that Marquette needed a big for 2009-10 and the coaching staff is of the opinion that having McMorrow on campus for a year working out with the team presents more upside than the hope Kemp or Jennings will commit. It may turn out that they're completely wrong about that. We'll have to wait and see.

[Daniel]

I like that we have 15 months to develop him, see what he can do, and for him to help our offense and defense during drills and practices.   We'll see what our staff can do too with McMorrow - and how well they develop our bigs.  So, all in all, I think I'm happy with the pick.  And the coaches obviously want him.

[Murffieus]

The bottom line is that Marquette needed a big for 2009-10 and the coaching staff is of the opinion that having McMorrow on campus for a year working out with the team presents more upside than the hope Kemp or Jennings will commit. It may turn out that they're completely wrong about that. We'll have to wait and see.

Haven't seen Jennings, but have seen Kemp on one of those "feel good" videos and he did make me feel "real good".
Whether the ball went in the hoop or not was not of significance to me as they all go in-----however what was of significance to me were his moves on the block-----that kid has been worked with.

Buzz seems to be taking the easy way out on some of thses kids----he's in too much of a hurry IMO for a guy who supposed to be a stupendous recruiter.

[postman_11]

All of this is awkward, mainly because we had many possible options and a lot of time to do this.he wont be available till 09 but so will jennings and kemp. which i believe we had a high chance of landing one of these guys. but i hope buzz knows sumthin i dont, cuz im sumwat disappointed in this signing.

[bilsu]

McMorrow has height, strength and agility. He is a late comer to basketball, but was playing other sports. His brother played pro hockey. It is not like he is somebody that is just big. He exudes potential. It is obvious by the effort made by Buzz to keep his recruitment a secret that they were really worried about someone else taking an interest in him. I cannot believe how much you guys complain. You complain about Maymon, because he has to get his academics in order. We had the same issue with Mbakwe and that worked out. You complain about Buyckes and argue over whether he had any other offers. If Cadougan would have committed a week ago you would have complained that we did not wait for Gaddy. There are some of you that are complaining that we are not signing Lacy, who is an undersized point guard who is really a shooting guard. We do not know how any of the other potential recruits would have fit in on our team personality wise. Sure we had several offers out there, but these players have not even visited. Also a lot of these players have several of the top programs in the country on their lists. The only player you have not complained about is Williams. To me he is the biggest question mark. He broke his ankle and has been rehabbing for several months. I have no doubt that he is a great talent, but I have no idea how bad his ankle is. If it does not heal right he will never fulfill his potential. Every time you recruit a player there is going to be a question mark, because you there are no guarantees. Players like Blankson, Amoroso and Mason should have been significant players here, but decided to transfer. They did not have the work ethic of a Wade, Diener or Novak. Look at Dwight Burke. Burke certainly looked like a wasted scholarship his first two years here, but he never stopped working and should be a significant contributor this year. It looks like we will have our recruiting class completed in July, which is four months ahead of signing date. Now all they have to do is come in, work hard and stay out of trouble.

[mviale]

McMorrow is a mid-major recruit and doesnt deserve a scholarship for a Top 5 BE team.   Time will tell, but one has to question this one and 15 mos is too long to wait.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

McMorrow is a mid-major recruit and doesnt deserve a scholarship for a Top 5 BE team.   Time will tell, but one has to question this one and 15 mos is too long to wait.

I don't know if McMorrow will be any good... but if the 15 months is an issue for you, is there somebody out there who you think could have come in and had an impact this year?

[mviale]

I don't know if McMorrow will be any good... but if the 15 months is an issue for you, is there somebody out there who you think could have come in and had an impact this year?

I would have banked the scholarship for a 3 or 4 star any size.

[Pardner]

We get the reasoning by Buzz...we don't get why we couldn't wait to see if a higher ranked 4 or 5 fell out.  Liam has played 20 games and is older--seems to scream of limited upside--or the same potential we could pick up at a later date from an international player (but the 15 months to work with him is a plus).  This pick up at this time is ok for a MCC or C-USA MU team, not a top BE team, though.  We officially have two very green "projects" at the 5.  Why not wait to see what falls out?  

That said, MU was in on this early so hopefully Buzz has good street info.   All in all, we are talking a 10 m/game back-up for Otule here who can give us some fouls.  Per Rosiak:

Williams -- who'd specifically asked the few staff members he had in place shortly after his hiring in April to follow any and all leads with regard to prospects -- got the lead on McMorrow from staff member Brad Autry and was understandably intrigued.

He also just so happened to have a former player of his from New Orleans, Jamie McNeilly, living near McMorrow in the Toronto area.

"Obviously, people are interested in a 7-footer, and it was a good coincidence that Coach Buzz had coached someone that lived like pretty much in my neighborhood and was in town at the time, that could actually see what level I was at," said McMorrow. "He was right in my neck of the woods so he took me to a little run he was having with a couple other guys that played in Europe and stuff, and he just reported back to Coach on where I was at, and everything's come from there, pretty much."

The ensuing weeks were spent trying to determine what exactly MU needed to do to get McMorrow transferred and qualified rather than what he'd accomplished as a player, making the recruitment process a strange one for Williams

[Pakuni]

I would have banked the scholarship for a 3 or 4 star any size.

So, you're willing to wait 15 months for a kid who's a three-star recruit at "any size", but unwilling to wait 15 months for a reportedly athletic 7-footer?
Interesting.

You're putting way too much stock in silly star ratings. In 2002, Lenny Cooke, Bracey Wright, Deangelo Collins and Evan Burns were among Scout's five-star recruits. Chris Grimm was a four-star recruit. Andrew Bogut was a two-star recruit ranked the 71st best center prospect in the class.

[yellow chickens]

I don't see why everyone thinks we need a point guard with our final scholarship. I like the looks of the lineup as follows.

1
Buycks/cubi/acker

2
e. williams/butler

3
lazar/fulce

4
maymon/mbakwe

5
mcmorrow/otule/mbakwe


This lineup is young, talented, and very tall. I think we should still use the extra scholarship on the best player available; like maybe wilson or one of the other highly ranked recruits.

[Tugg Speedman]

McMorrow has height, strength and agility. He is a late comer to basketball, but was playing other sports. His brother played pro hockey. It is not like he is somebody that is just big.

Cluasen had height, strength and agility.  Clausen's brother was a starting lineman for the University of Nebraska.  How did that work out?  Seems like we got somebody that was just big.

[bilsu]

Whether Claussen worked out or not has nothing to do with McMorrow. I could throw McCaskill back at you as an example of another player that worked out. McMorrow is neither of them. How good he becomes will depend on his work ethic and learning ability. Besides that we probalby could have used Claussen last year. I think we should withhold judgment on McMorrow until we see him at midnight madness. He will not be a polished player at that time, but we should be able to see what kind of natural ability he has. What I am hoping for is that he is bigger and more mobile than Otule. If he is less mobile than Otule than I would have some concerns. I have not seen Otule play, so this is not a commentary on Otule. My point is that if he is bigger and more mobile than Otule and we do not want him, than we probalby do not want Otule either.

[Tugg Speedman]

ok, back to the original question ....

According to the recruiting sites, MU is listed by 15 to 20 3 and 4 star recruits.  Yet, Buzz takes a complete unknown.  If he still had three or four slots left, I'd have less problem with this.  However, by taking McMurrow it leaves him with only one slot.  And he's sending a message that he's more concerned with "position" than "best available."  Given that he's probably going to use the last slot for a PG.

So, what happens if one of those 3 or 4 star recruits wants to come to MU and we don't have a slot because we took McMurrow.  Are you happy to pass on Lacy (assuming he makes grades), or Wilson, or any other non-center 3 or 4 star recruits because we are so desperate to get size we took someone no one ever heard of?

[TJ]

ok, back to the original question ....

According to the recruiting sites, MU is listed by 15 to 20 3 and 4 star recruits.  Yet, Buzz takes a complete unknown.  If he still had three or four slots left, I'd have less problem with this.  However, by taking McMurrow it leaves him with only one slot.  And he's sending a message that he's more concerned with "position" than "best available."  Given that he's probably going to use the last slot for a PG.

So, what happens if one of those 3 or 4 star recruits wants to come to MU and we don't have a slot because we took McMurrow.  Are you happy to pass on Lacy (assuming he makes grades), or Wilson, or any other non-center 3 or 4 star recruits because we are so desperate to get size we took someone no one ever heard of?

Yes.  Best available is a great philosophy to go by, but at some point you have to fill every position on the floor too.

[muwarrior87]

We filled best available with a number of the other schollies for the next two recruiting years by taking guys that can play the 2 and 3, the 3 and 4, and so on. Then we have interchangeable parts that can help us down the road. Now with McMorrow we pick up a very big guy who has played sports in the past that require a great deal of athleticism, agility, soft hands, and quickness.  Seeing him come into Humphrey last week alongside Otule, it is visibly clear that he is MUCH bigger. He has a couple inches on him and is quite a bit bigger.

Now he has nearly a year and a half to hit the weights and the gym to work on his strength and his game. Buzz mentioned in an interview that McMorrow has not really ever had weight training as part of his workout so now he has a chance to get bigger and stronger. He's played hockey and lacrosse and with his size, even before his growth spurt, I'm guessing he was a defenseman in hockey which means he had to lay some checks into people which would be a pretty good indication that he should be able to bang down low, imo.  However he turns out, as of now I'm very supportive of this pick. The majority of the 3+ star recruits we were in on still had 8+ schools on their list. That doesn't mean any of them are sure things to commit here and playing the percentages I'll take the project over a CHANCE that we hit a high caliber recruit.

[THEGYMBAR]

I think this might end up being a mistake. We are not in the position yet to take fliers. Hearing that his feet are sound from hockey is hardly a ringing endorsement. We need Wilson and PG.

[Pakuni]

So, what happens if one of those 3 or 4 star recruits wants to come to MU and we don't have a slot because we took McMurrow.  Are you happy to pass on Lacy (assuming he makes grades), or Wilson, or any other non-center 3 or 4 star recruits because we are so desperate to get size we took someone no one ever heard of?

Yes.
The better question is "Are you happy going into the '09-'10 with only one player above 6'7" - and only two post players in all -and with an overload of wings because Scouts, Inc. and Rivals told you so?"

It's mind-boggling how some people are so wrapped up in these star rankings. If MU had a great shot at a five-star player, I could understand it. Certainly there have been dozens of five-star players who've flopped, but more often than not they're good.
But all this hand wringing over three-star guys? Guys rated lower than Chris Grimm (four stars) and Joe Chapman (four stars)? Guys rated the same as Brandon Bell (three stars) and Marcus Jackson (three stars)? Those are the kind of players that have you in a tizzy?
It's bizarre that you're apparently upset that Buzz signed McMorrow over, for example, Shawn Kemp, and the entire basis is that one is a three-star recruit whose name you've previously heard.

Again, I have no idea how good McMorrow will or won't be, but to criticize his commitment because he's not a three-star recruit whose name you know is silly, especially since Scout and Rivals don't rank players at Canadian colleges and I suspect you don't follow the Canadian college leagues all that closely.

[NYWarrior]

I think this might end up being a mistake. We are not in the position yet to take fliers. Hearing that his feet are sound from hockey is hardly a ringing endorsement. We need Wilson and PG.

huh?

TC took fliers with just about every class....at least Buzz is taking one with a kid who is 7-feet tall, has no apparent injury history, and will be on campus for 17 months before his first official action as a Warrior.   Smart move by Buzz

And he'll still get the PG.  As for Wilson - - Between EWilliams and Maymon, it seems like MU is set at F slot.

[Pakuni]

I think this might end up being a mistake. We are not in the position yet to take fliers. Hearing that his feet are sound from hockey is hardly a ringing endorsement. We need Wilson and PG.

We need Wilson? Are you kidding me?
Wilson plays the same position as Maymon who, according to many, has surpassed Wilson in terms of ability.
Wilson plays the same position as Joe Fulce, who will be a junior the year Wilson would arrive on campus.
Wilson plays the same position as Lazar Hayward, who will be a senior the year Wilson would arrive on campus.
Wilson arguably plays the same position as Erik Williams.

Sheesh ... how many threes and/or undersized fours do you want on this roster? And why would you want a complete overload of one type of player while an utter dearth of post players?
If you were making the case for another big instead of McMorrow, you might have an argument. But another wing?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I would have banked the scholarship for a 3 or 4 star any size.

Wait...

I think I'm misunderstanding.

You seemed unhappy that MU had to redshirt McMorrow and wait 15 months.

Now you want to bank the scholly instead?

I guess I would argue that McMorrow (with 15months to practice) could be more impactful in 2009-2010 than most bigs we would look at. (no way to know for sure, but mid-grade bigs don't seem to come in and be good right away).

Obviously this is all speculation... but compare apples to apples for 2009:

McMorrow with 15 months of "MU Prep" or another frosh. big man (who we don't know if he will even sign)

I'm not saying McMorrow was a great signing... (still TBD).

I just don't think it's a slam dunk that MU should "wait and see" on the other recruits.

7' with a redshirt year could be a nice role player.

[jce]

ok, back to the original question ....

According to the recruiting sites, MU is listed by 15 to 20 3 and 4 star recruits.  Yet, Buzz takes a complete unknown.  If he still had three or four slots left, I'd have less problem with this.  However, by taking McMurrow it leaves him with only one slot.  And he's sending a message that he's more concerned with "position" than "best available."  Given that he's probably going to use the last slot for a PG.

My guess is that Buzz knows a lot more about where MU really stands with these recruits than the boards do and that many of them really aren't all that serious about MU.

Furthermore, I think Buzz, a la Bo Ryan, feels that Wilson isn't staying in state and isn't going to waste his time on futile efforts.  Jamil Wilson is a nice player.  We have someone in Maymon in the same class with roughly the same ability.  I feel confident about where we stand heading into the future.

[Marquette_g]

I do not get the obsession people have with Wilson.  By all accounts he is a very good prospect, but if a person were to read only this board they'd come away thinking that the next LeBron James is playing in Racine. 

I can understand the arguments against recruiting a guy like McMurrow, but to act like not getting Wilson is such a devastating blow just seems foolish.

[Tugg Speedman]

I think the obsession with Wilson is MU showing an ability get a much sought after recruit from its "back yard" more than his ability.  If Wilson was from suburban Chicago, I doubt he would have generated so much excitment at MU.

[rocky_warrior]

However, by taking McMurrow ...
<snip>
So, what happens if one of those 3 or 4 star recruits wants to come to MU and we don't have a slot because we took McMurrow.  ...

Just for the record - it's McMorrow - and now that he's officially a Warrior it's worth it to learn his name

[THEGYMBAR]

Wilson is every bit as good as advertised. To think we do not need him because we have Maymon is crazy. Have you seen Buzz pull back the offer? Of course not, because he wants him badly.


NY Warrior---I would not copy TC's recruiting methods. We are not in position to waste any spot. Especially with Buzz being in on soo many guys. I don't care if it is 17 years before he steps foot on the court. If the kid could play he would have been playing somewhere.

[THEGYMBAR]

AnotherMU--Great point on the backyard comment. Yes we need Wilson to show UW that we get the good local studs. Easier to get players locally after the first ones sign.

You might be right on if he was from Chicago, but can say this kid is a flat out stud. I would love to see in national press that MU beat out UNC to get him. Takes us another level.

[bma725]

Wilson is every bit as good as advertised. To think we do not need him because we have Maymon is crazy. Have you seen Buzz pull back the offer? Of course not, because he wants him badly.

Wants him badly is a grand overstatement.  Wilson is not being recruited as hard now as he was when TC was here, and it has definitely dropped off since Maymon committed.

And whether or not he is as good as advertised is debatable, Wilson's hype is outpacing his actual production, and he's certainly not the player a lot of people thought he would be by this point.   

[TJ]

I don't actually think this or have a problem with either recruit, but if anything was a recruiting "mistake" it would be Dwight Buycks and not the 7 foot McMorrow.

[Marquette_g]

I would have hoped that signing two WI-based players demonstrated a desire and ability to recruit "in their own backyard."

Again, I'm not taking anything away from Wilson, I just don't believe that getting him is any more or less significant than secruing the commitment of any highly rated recruit.
  

[THEGYMBAR]

bma---I would not be so sure on your comments. I have heard that Buzz is very high on him. What I do not get is that if Buzz signs him everyone on here will be saying it is MU's biggest recruit in years. You have to be consistent in evaluating players. If he is not better than Maymon remember you stated that.

[jce]

I would have hoped that signing two WI-based players demonstrated a desire and ability to recruit "in their own backyard."

Again, I'm not taking anything away from Wilson, I just don't believe that getting him is any more or less significant than secruing the commitment of any highly rated recruit.

And offering both Flavien Davis and Kyle Kelm for 2010.

That being said, I don't know how special it really is to get someone from your own backyard.  You want the best talent regardless of where they are from.

[Marquette_g]

JCE - I agree completely.

Get the best talent available regardless of geography.

[bma725]

bma---I would not be so sure on your comments. I have heard that Buzz is very high on him. What I do not get is that if Buzz signs him everyone on here will be saying it is MU's biggest recruit in years. You have to be consistent in evaluating players. If he is not better than Maymon remember you stated that.

Being very high on someone and recruiting them hard are two different things.  TC had JW as his main target and was doing everything he could to get JW here.  Buzz isn't doing that at all.  He's still recruiting him, but it's not hard, and JW hasn't been one of the main targets since late April, right around the time the Maymon recruitment started to take off.  

[bma725]

And offering both Flavien Davis and Kyle Kelm for 2010.

That being said, I don't know how special it really is to get someone from your own backyard.  You want the best talent regardless of where they are from.

Davis was an old offer, TC extended it back in 2007, Buzz is just honoring that but he's not going after Davis as hard Crean did.  Same thing he did with Johnnie Lacy. 

[THEGYMBAR]

bma---Reluctantly I am going to go along with you on the Buzz wanting Wilson badly or not. Your track record is solid in recruiting. Iheard recently from two people I trust that Wilson was still big target. But, with that said, I will take your word on this.
Recently I heard it was MU or UNC for Wilson.

[bma725]

bma---Reluctantly I am going to go along with you on the Buzz wanting Wilson badly or not. Your track record is solid in recruiting. Iheard recently from two people I trust that Wilson was still big target. But, with that said, I will take your word on this.
Recently I heard it was MU or UNC for Wilson.

Not saying he can't come here, but it is a very long shot at this point and it has been since April 1st.

That said, I wouldn't look for him to go to UNC either.  They have hardly been involved with him at all.  Michigan State is the big player right now, especially because of the Korie Lucious connection.  Duke would be the leader if they would offer, but they haven't done that yet. 

[wadesworld]

McMorrow is a mid-major recruit and doesnt deserve a scholarship for a Top 5 BE team.   Time will tell, but one has to question this one and 15 mos is too long to wait.

Well considering we played quite a few mid-major teams who's bigs dominated our bigs in previous years I'll take a mid-major recruit down low.  I would've gladly taken those team's bigs over ours, so now I guess we have them.  And if we were 1 unlucky bounce of the ball (and unlucky draw of teams) away from the Sweet Sixteen without them I can't wait until we have them.

[Thomas' Danish Delight]

Quick question...

Will we be able to see McMurrow at Marquette Madness?

[Pakuni]

Quick question...

Will we be able to see McMurrow at Marquette Madness?

Yes. He's eligible to practice with the team all season long.

[The Man in Gold]

One other point to keep in mind that I think was only brought up once in this whole thread is that we don't have to have a PG at all costs. 
If a 4-star gem recruit happens falls in our lap, Buzz certainly should consider it.  Cubi and Acker as seniors can handle the point for a season.  Obviously a stud PG will make everybody feel better, but with 2 senior PG's MU could manage if the right recruit called up Buzz and begged to be a Warrior.  Plus transfers and other events  do happen that open up scholarships, so a late deciding player like Wilson could still be in play.

Everyone please step back from the ledge.

[Big Papi]

Lost in the fact from all the crying that is going on around here is that Buzz seems to value big men.  Now as good as Buzz might be as a recruiter, I doubt he lands 6-10 plus studs who make a major impact right away at MU anytime soon.  They are hard to find and Memphis, NC, Kansas and a few others have an edge over us.  Chances are we are going to have to find some diamond in the roughs with lots of potential and just plain develop them.  Thats why while initially a little disappointed, I really like this pick up a lot.  We can dream all we want about Kemp Jr and any other stud centers, we are not going to get them to come here now or next year.  There is just too few ready made impact studs and we still have an unknown commodity of a new coach.  This staff now has 15 months to mold this kid into a contributor his soph year and potentially a big impact player.  There has always been a clamoring around here to sign legit bigs.  Then when we sign them, redshirt them because it takes time to develop them.  And look what we have here.  We sign a big and in essence are redshirting him and there is still posters crying.

   

[avid1010]

Lost in the fact from all the crying that is going on around here is that Buzz seems to value big men.  Now as good as Buzz might be as a recruiter, I doubt he lands 6-10 plus studs who make a major impact right away at MU anytime soon.  They are hard to find and Memphis, NC, Kansas and a few others have an edge over us.  Chances are we are going to have to find some diamond in the roughs with lots of potential and just plain develop them.     

I agree, but maybe not with the diamond in the rough part.  Perhaps MU simply needs to recruit athletic big men who can play a back up role for a year or two with an emphasis on deffense and rebounding.  After some work they'll have developed these players into offensive threats.  Once recruits see that MU can develop big men then possibly we can get the studs....which are typically around for a year or two anyhow.  I get a kick out of all the "maybe Buzz knows something we don't" comments....you think?!?!

[muarmy81]

Mufanatic, I think  your best point is the redshirt fact.  Although McMorrow is sitting out the year due to transfer rules we never saw any patience with the old regime.  Granted, our interior coaching was non existent so being patient probably wouldn't have paid off anyway but with a couple of asst coaches with a reputation for developing or at least working with Bigs I'm curious to see how Otule and McMorrow develop and hopefully contribute.  I think we're all a little jaded by the fact that the only real developed Big we saw come thru MU was Ooze.  Like everything Buzz does I think we should wait and see what happens before we jump on his back.  Hopefully it works out and if these 2 bigs develop we'll get a reputation for doing so and we'll start seeing more and more quality bigs take an interest in MU.

[CAINMUTINY]

It should be noted what a tireless worker Ooze was while he was at MU; First in the gym and the last one out.  I also think its unfair to criticize Grimm; The guy was runner up as Mr. Basketball (which by definition means you have to be a damn good bball player)in the state of Michigan and from all accounts Crean seriously messed with his head.  It should be noted that he's averaging somewhere in the neighborhood of 20ppg in a tough league in Switzerland. 

Let's start to realize that we are better by having McMurrow on our team; and if he doesn't work out its no biggie as scholarships are renewed on a yearly basis, that also could be said for Hazel or even for Otule.   

Buzz has done a tremendous job in his first 90 days and we should look forward to seeing what kind of a bench coach his is considering that was creans huge and I mean HUGE flaw; the man couldn't adjust to save his life.

[tower912]

Absolutely right about Grimm, Cain.   He finished 2nd to Paul Davis, who went to MSU and had a very nice career, though he, too, never really reached the heights expected.   Grimm was thought to be every bit as good as Davis.    Didn't quite work out that way.   I had never heard about Crean messing with his head, but it tracks.

[Pakuni]

Absolutely right about Grimm, Cain.   He finished 2nd to Paul Davis, who went to MSU and had a very nice career, though he, too, never really reached the heights expected.   Grimm was thought to be every bit as good as Davis.    Didn't quite work out that way.   I had never heard about Crean messing with his head, but it tracks.

Let's not get crazy.
Paul Davis was a McDonald's All American and rated by Scout the #4 player in the class of 2002.
Chris Grimm was the 24th ranked center in that class and nowhere close to the top 100.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, thought Grimm was every bit as good as Davis, or anywhere near Davis' league.
Also, Chris Grimm finished 8th in Michigan Mr. Baksetball voting, not second.
http://www.peschstats.com/MrBasketball.htm
The revisionist history that goes on around here in an effort to take shots at Crean is ridiculous.

And anybody who thinks Grimm is playing in a "tough" league in Switzerland doesn't know their European basketball very well. The Swiss league is one of the worst in Europe. Not one team in the Swiss league is ranked in the Euro Baskert Top 100. In other words, there are 100 teams in the other European leagues better than the very best team in the Swiss league. Take a look at some of the guys playing in that league:

http://www.eurobasket.com/imports.asp?Cntry=SUI&CntryNbr=57

[CAINMUTINY]

I am happy to admit that I was wrong regarding the information on Grimm; but I stand firmly planted in stating that Crean is a plague and we should all be happy that he is gone.  This is coming from former players and managers that stated that they feared the guy; does that really sound like someone you want as our coach? His transfer rates were abysmal and that is directly correlated to him as a person/coach.

I'm looking forward to seeing Buzz put a good squad together, which he already well on his way to doing

[bma725]

Nobody, and I mean nobody, thought Grimm was every bit as good as Davis, or anywhere near Davis' league.

Not exactly true.  The Ann Arbor News named Grimm the Class A player of the year that year, ahead of Paul Davis.  So at least one person thought Grimm was the better player.

[Pakuni]

Not exactly true.  The Ann Arbor News named Grimm the Class A player of the year that year, ahead of Paul Davis.  So at least one person thought Grimm was the better player.

Or perhaps that is a local award for players in the Ann Arbor area.
For example, when the Chicago Sun-Times does its all area team and names its player of the year, kids from Peoria don't get in on the fun.

[avid1010]

I had never heard about Crean messing with his head, but it tracks.

FWIW, saw it on two occassions in practices...TC would ream him out, call him a know it all, stick him in a one-on-one drill against Wade, then tell him he couldn't stop Wade because he wasn't listening.  Not too many NBA teams could blitz a pick and roll with Wade involved.  I believe Grimm was a frosh at the time...didn't like how TC handled him, but figured TC understood the individuals at hand.

[mviale]

Yes.
The better question is "Are you happy going into the '09-'10 with only one player above 6'7" - and only two post players in all -and with an overload of wings because Scouts, Inc. and Rivals told you so?"

It's mind-boggling how some people are so wrapped up in these star rankings. If MU had a great shot at a five-star player, I could understand it. Certainly there have been dozens of five-star players who've flopped, but more often than not they're good.
But all this hand wringing over three-star guys? Guys rated lower than Chris Grimm (four stars) and Joe Chapman (four stars)? Guys rated the same as Brandon Bell (three stars) and Marcus Jackson (three stars)? Those are the kind of players that have you in a tizzy?
It's bizarre that you're apparently upset that Buzz signed McMorrow over, for example, Shawn Kemp, and the entire basis is that one is a three-star recruit whose name you've previously heard.

Again, I have no idea how good McMorrow will or won't be, but to criticize his commitment because he's not a three-star recruit whose name you know is silly, especially since Scout and Rivals don't rank players at Canadian colleges and I suspect you don't follow the Canadian college leagues all that closely.

I would take another Lazar Hayward at 4 stars

[mviale]

It should be noted what a tireless worker Ooze was while he was at MU; First in the gym and the last one out.  I also think its unfair to criticize Grimm; The guy was runner up as Mr. Basketball (which by definition means you have to be a damn good bball player)in the state of Michigan and from all accounts Crean seriously messed with his head.  It should be noted that he's averaging somewhere in the neighborhood of 20ppg in a tough league in Switzerland. 

Let's start to realize that we are better by having McMurrow on our team; and if he doesn't work out its no biggie as scholarships are renewed on a yearly basis, that also could be said for Hazel or even for Otule.   

Buzz has done a tremendous job in his first 90 days and we should look forward to seeing what kind of a bench coach his is considering that was creans huge and I mean HUGE flaw; the man couldn't adjust to save his life.

  Grimm should have been better at college -wonder why he didnt do well at MU?

[MUDPT]

I know the Chicago Tribune puts out of Chicago area players on its all state team.  The point guard from Decatur? going to Purdue was on their top team.

Anybody that has ever played competitive basketball can see when a player is playing scared.  When I say playing scared, I mean playing "not to screw up."  Grimm was always like that in games.  Always doing what he was told, even if it didn't make sense.  Remember how he used to try and screen the post, when the guy already had the ball? Basically bringing a double team to the post.

[mviale]

Grimm could show moments of greatness too.  Then Crean would pull him - hard to get in a flow when you average under 10 min.

[Pakuni]

Boy, to read this thread one would think that the only thing standing between Chris Grimm and NBA millions was Tom Crean. 

Anyhow, for those of you who don't frequent the Scout board there's a poster over there who says he's seen McMorrow play and offers some insight on him.
One particularly encouraging passage:

"He is a smart young man, quite athletic and healthy, very strong and fairly quick. I like him better right now than I ever liked Courtney Sims (Michigan), for example - although Courtney played quite well against Greg Oden. For one thing, Liam is a big man and he loves it. He is tough, and he knows it."

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=415&f=2850&t=2624632&stm=32231897

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=415&f=2850&t=2624632&stm=32354300

[bilsu]

Sometimes you just get good feelings about recruits. Of course I had good feelings about Amoroso, so that does not mean much. I have to say why most posters were worried about him being a wasted scholarship, I have been worried about him going pro early. He is big, strong and agile. There are so few players like that, that he is a rare commodity. The number of 6'11" plus players that MU has had is small. Centers like Butrym were not strong enough. Others were not agile. The only question I have regarding McMorrow is whether he will be an offensive threat. Frankly we do not need a big scorer at center. We need someone to play defense and control the boards. With Otule that gives us 10 fouls at the center position, before we have to drop down to a 6'7" center.

[The Lens]

I have to say why most posters were worried about him being a wasted scholarship, I have been worried about him going pro early. He is big, strong and agile. There are so few players like that, that he is a rare commodity.

In two years it wouldn't surprise me if they we're talking non stop about his hockey and LAX backgrounds making him into a great hoops player.  Those sports require coordination which usually seems to be a big obstacle with big men.  My only question is how good at hockey and LAX was he?

[CAINMUTINY]

Whether or not he was an all-star hockey or lax player is somewhat irrelevant as they are both sports that you don't continue to play for long if you're not somewhat decent. That is most relevant for lax which is a sport that requires a ton of coordination and stamina, and hockey is no slouch.

This team is continuing its momentum that it had prior to crean leaving and I think the only question is Buzz's talent as a bench coach. Give Mike dean all crap about being a poor recruiter as you want, but the guy could flat out coach with half the talent as crean and he hardly if ever got blown out by 47 points.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I would take another Lazar Hayward at 4 stars

Welcome back the this thread.

Can you please clarify your point re: banking the scholarship?

I believe you are saying that you would rather bank the scholarship than sign McMorrow, is that correct?

[tower912]

McMorrow is a big, strong, athletic, raw 7 footer with a mean streak, if you believe the guy bma quoted from the scout board.   16 months to learn big man skills.   I have traded shots with Murf on the other board comparing Liam's background to Olajuwon's.   I don't believe he is the next Olajuwon.   I do believe that this is the kind of recruit we were begging TC to get.   Even better, we have a coaching staff that has developed bigs elsewhere and a philosophy that won't completely eliminate them from the offense.     At worst, we have another 5 fouls from another 7 footer, or a 7 ft Burke.   At best, 2-3 years from now, we will have a bona fide twin tower inside presence.  I really see no downside.   Hell, I would have taken this guy AS IS to lean against the Lopez twins.  

[OneMadWarrior]

I am surprised everyone is so insistent on MU having a PG in the next recruiting class. The way I see it they will have plenty of guards to play a combo like guard which is all they seem to have anyway (James plays more like a combo then a true pg) The truth of the matter is that you never draft/recruit for need. You get the best player you can. If you have enough athletes on your team with enough handle, you can find a guy to help run your offense. Personally I'd rather have a group of big combo guards on my team then a bunch of midgets running around the court at all times.