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Author Topic: Rivals - Was Williams the Right Choice  (Read 11895 times)

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Rivals - Was Williams the Right Choice
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2008, 02:30:37 PM »
From today on Rivals: Was Williams the Right Choice for MU

Two writers, editor and staff writer. Editor - Good choice. Writer - Questionable.

The final sentence in the article, to me, is what it all boils down too.

http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=809101


What I find interesting are the responses from various basketball reporters on this hire.

Katz (ESPN) called it a gamble

DeCourcey (Sporting News) said MU paniced

Woelfel (Racine)...he's a jag so I expected his anti MU spin and that's what we got from him.

Michael Hunt (Milwaukee Journal Sentinel) called it a hire with no Buzz and surprising

McLellan and Skwara (Rivals.com) both called the hiring surprising.  Skwara says it was also questionable.  McLellan says it was a good hire

Charles Rich (AOL Sports) - an interesting article....the only thing he directly says about the hire "This hire seems in part to try and keep Marquette's excellent incoming recruiting class in tact."

Mike Lucas (Capital Times) - Did MU just hire it's own Frank Martin he asks?  An "appeasement" hire to please the current players and future recruiting class (this is before 2 of them officially left)

The only reporter I can find that isn't surprised, thought it wasn't a gamble, or risky or a panic move that has a column or national following is...well no one.  Even McLellan who says it's a good hire called it surprising.  I'm sure there is a college basketball reporter out there that disagrees but my search hasn't turned it up yet.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 02:43:42 PM by ChicosBailBonds »

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Rivals - Was Williams the Right Choice
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2008, 02:39:34 PM »
Ok, I will bite since I'm clearly not in the know here....what is the scoop on the Provost hiring?

MU went internal, hired the dean of the school of nursing (Madeline Wake).  Much turmoil within, many profs and administrators saying she wasn't qualified to be provost, that she was put into a role over her head.  Arts and Sciences profs were not happy with her promotion.  She tended to think that theology and philosophy classes, a staple of the Jesuit curriculum, weren't necessary for those in professional education majors (business, nursing, etc).  Well, that rubbed a lot of the A & S profs the wrong way as you can imagine.

Her beliefs in "outcomes assessment" also pinched many a nerve amongst colleagues throughout the university.

Here PhD credentials from UWM (Urban education) also were questioned by some faculty members....not that she didn't earn them, but that a Provost should have a higher standing then that.

Other issues as well.  Inability to move on decisions that had to be made.


Plenty of information on Wake through Google.  Many profs basically upset that MU went internal to hire someone that probably wasn't ready for that type of gig.

Father Wild ultimately let her go last summer, 5 years after she was given the position. 



tower912

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Re: Rivals - Was Williams the Right Choice
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2008, 03:13:43 PM »
Decourcy may have said MU panicked, but he also gave the hire a 'B' overall.   
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=408951

A+ to IU, A to LSU, A- to Cal. 
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 03:24:07 PM by tower912 »
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Rivals - Was Williams the Right Choice
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2008, 04:10:59 PM »
Decourcy may have said MU panicked, but he also gave the hire a 'B' overall.   
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=408951

A+ to IU, A to LSU, A- to Cal. 


That is correct....and if you email him he'll tell you he would have given a couple others that MU could have hired an even higher grade, but MU chose not to go after them.  He rated each school on their own merits and their own expectations.  In other words, if MU hired Ford, that's a different grade then when OSU hired Ford.  Or if OSU hired Williams, that's a different grade then he got when MU hired Williams.


nola03

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Re: Rivals - Was Williams the Right Choice
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2008, 06:19:48 PM »
Nothing beats people with absolutely no knowledge of the process blasting the search. How do you know how many people were contacted or how they handled the search?

Believe me, Buzz is thought of very highly by a lot of good basketball people.

This was a very good hire. Obviously nobody knows what will happen in the future, but we have a solid coaching staff. I think we'll be fine.

Nothing beats people with absolutely no knowledge of the process blasting people with no knowledge of the process blasting the search.

Any coach we hired would have been well thought of by at least some in the profession. Everyone has their bodyguards.

People aren't upset with Buzz Williams. How can you be? He's 35, has been a coaching vagabond, is a below .500 head coach, and was handed 1m/year to coach a top 5 Big East program. Put sprinkles and a cherry on top and its the biggest sundae in the world.

The upsetting part is Cottingham only used 48-72 hours to decide who our next coach would be.

nola03

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Re: Rivals - Was Williams the Right Choice
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2008, 06:20:18 PM »
I would absolutely question the Brownell or Lowery hires.  I actually like Buzz's hire more than I would those two.  I have seen and heard enough experiences with Buzz from friends, etc. that I think he is a great fit.

I wasn't on the board in 1998 but I wonder what the discussion was about Tom Crean.


What would be your questions on Chris Lowery?

Marquette84

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Re: Rivals - Was Williams the Right Choice
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2008, 08:17:48 PM »
The fact that your friends have had positive experiences with Buzz Williams means nothing unless your friends are highly-rated high school recruits. The fact that this hire is being questioned is reason enough for a recruit to think twice about signing on with a complete unknown. If I had a son who was even a three-star recruit -- and I love MU -- I wouldn't advise him to sign on with this coach. He's inexperienced and is a complete fish out of water in Milwaukee.



So, Harv, are you a highly rated high school recruit?  Otherwise, all your "questioning"  this hire means nothing, right?

Pakuni

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Re: Rivals - Was Williams the Right Choice
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2008, 08:58:18 PM »

What would be your questions on Chris Lowery?

I like Lowery and would have been happy with him as coach.
That said, there are questions about him.

1. SIU took a huge step backwards this past season despite returning three starters - including the pre-season favorite MVC Player of the Year and preseason Wooden candidate Randall Falker - a much easier nonconference schedule and a down year for the MVC. Maybe it's a one-year blip, but it certainly should raise an eyebrow or two and makes one wonder whether Lowery has just managed to feed off the trough filled by Weber and Painter, the way Mike Deane fed off Kevin O'Neill's success for a few years.
It will be very interesting to see whap happens this year when Lowery loses five seniors, including three of this top four scorers (all Matt Painter/Bruce Weber recruits).

2. Lowery's recruiting has been shaky at best, especially considering the strong foundation with which he was left. None of Lowery's first three recruiting classes has produced much other than Bryan Mullins. He was the only Lowery recruit that was a full-time starter last year. Only one underclassman (of just six on the roster) saw significant minutes last season. The 5th and 6th leading scorers last year were walk-ons.
In fairness, his incoming class looks to be very good.

Again, I like Lowery. But, IMO, he's no less risky of a hire than Buzz, who at least has shown he can recruit on the high-major level.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 09:00:44 PM by Pakuni »

mu03eng

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Re: Rivals - Was Williams the Right Choice
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2008, 09:08:00 PM »
I like Lowery and would have been happy with him as coach.
That said, there are questions about him.

1. SIU took a huge step backwards this past season despite returning three starters - including the pre-season favorite MVC Player of the Year and preseason Wooden candidate Randall Falker - a much easier nonconference schedule and a down year for the MVC. Maybe it's a one-year blip, but it certainly should raise an eyebrow or two and makes one wonder whether Lowery has just managed to feed off the trough filled by Weber and Painter, the way Mike Deane fed off Kevin O'Neill's success for a few years.
It will be very interesting to see whap happens this year when Lowery loses five seniors, including three of this top four scorers (all Matt Painter/Bruce Weber recruits).

2. Lowery's recruiting has been shaky at best, especially considering the strong foundation with which he was left. None of Lowery's first three recruiting classes has produced much other than Bryan Mullins. He was the only Lowery recruit that was a full-time starter last year. Only one underclassman (of just six on the roster) saw significant minutes last season. The 5th and 6th leading scorers last year were walk-ons.
In fairness, his incoming class looks to be very good.

Again, I like Lowery. But, IMO, he's no less risky of a hire than Buzz, who at least has shown he can recruit on the high-major level.

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nola03

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Re: Rivals - Was Williams the Right Choice
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2008, 10:43:40 AM »
The MVC was tricky this past season. Drake had a magical season that will never again be repeated. Better to have a "step back" during this moment then if the league was wide open. I think describing it as a "huge" step backwards is hyperbole meant to illuminate your point. It's no worse then the step backwards Marquette took this past season. Hell, even mighty mid-major Gonzaga has lost two NCAA first rounds in a row. For the heights they've achieved, that could be considered a huge step backwards.

As for recruiting, Lowery has his best class to date coming in next season. And, the season after that he adds Tony Freeman. So it seems his talent base will be just fine the next 2-3 seasons and perhaps 4-5 depending on how he builds off the 2008 class. If SIU goes 25-8 and makes the NCAA Tournament it would only strengthen the thought that Lowery is a good coach and would make this past season irrelevant.

The fact that you, and others, continually bring up any coaching prospect and label them "just as risky" as Williams speaks volumes to me. IMO, the defense of Williams for a lot of MU fans seems predicated on the downgrading of other coaches.

Pakuni

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Re: Rivals - Was Williams the Right Choice
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2008, 11:44:33 AM »
The MVC was tricky this past season. Drake had a magical season that will never again be repeated. Better to have a "step back" during this moment then if the league was wide open. I think describing it as a "huge" step backwards is hyperbole meant to illuminate your point. It's no worse then the step backwards Marquette took this past season.

Southern went from 29-7 and a Sweet Sixteen to 18-15 and a second-round NIT exit.

MU went from 24-10 and a first-round NCAA exit to 25-10 and a second-round NCAA exit.

How are these "steps backwards" somehow equivalent? And how is winning more games a "step backwards" for Marquette?
As for my "hyperbole", I guess it's all relative.
I consider winning 11 fewer games against an easier schedule a major stepbackwards. If MU finishes with just 14 wins next year, I have no doubt you'll be here preaching that it's no big deal.


Quote
If SIU goes 25-8 and makes the NCAA Tournament it would only strengthen the thought that Lowery is a good coach and would make this past season irrelevant.

And if he goes 17-13, what does it say?
Because minus Falker, Shaw and Green (i.e. 82 starts, 31 ppg, 17 rpg) that's much more likely than 25 wins.

Quote
The fact that you, and others, continually bring up any coaching prospect and label them "just as risky" as Williams speaks volumes to me. IMO, the defense of Williams for a lot of MU fans seems predicated on the downgrading of other coaches.

Huh? I didn't bring up Lowery and I certainly didn't downgrade him in a defense of Buzz.
I answered your question about him. You wanted to know what questions there were about him and I answered them.
But rather than admit there are some very legitimate ones, you:

- utterly ignore his suspect recruiting. One good recruiting class in four years and a one-year transfer apparently is OK by you.

- completely minimize an 11-win dropoff that came despite the fact he had an easier schedule and six of his top eight scorers returning.

In the future, if you don't want an answer, don't ask the question.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 11:55:21 AM by Pakuni »

 

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