[Cracked Sidewalks] Cottingham details 'the process'

[Marquette84]

We seemed to skip number 3, for some unknown reason to save a recruiting class and because we had a gun to our head that said if we didn't get a coach in 48 hours the school would turn into a pumpkin at midnight.

Maybe you'd stand a better chance at having your points taken seriously if you stopped repeating this BS.

It's been made clear that there was no panic, no deadline.  There was a prioritized list of candidates, Buzz was on that list, and he was considered in the proper sequence.

You seem to have two beefs:

1.  You rank some candidates that were ranked behind Buzz ahead of him.  That's fine--we can debate that point all you want.  We've reached the point where there are examples you can cite on successful mid-major coaches, and examples I can cite on unsuccessful ones.  I've given you some very defensible reasons why Buzz was considered a strong candidate.    

The bottom line is that all reports suggest that Buzz was considered in sequence--whether he was third or fifth or seventh doesn't really matter--there were a number of choices ahead of him, and they all turned down MU's offer.  Your argument seems to be that somebody else should have been ranked ahead of him--but when you name names, it's easy to make the case that Buzz could be considered a better choice, depending on your criteria.

2. That leads to your next oft-repeated point--MU should have taken more time to interview additional candidates.  To which I've raised the question several times what SPECIFICALLY an interview is going to reveal?  No serious answers (except someone who made some remark about shaking hands).

Frankly, I don't see any evidence that ANY major program interviews five or six candidates before choosing one--I see evidence of programs successively interviewing candidates who turn them down, until one finally accepts.  Providence is a good example.  PC didn't decide on not hiring Davis over Larranga or Ford after a lengthy interview process.  Larranga turned them down.  Then they turned to Ford.  He turned them down.  Then they turned to Davis.  He accepted.  

Ditto with Indiana.  Did they interview five candidates before hiring Crean?  No.  Bennett (first choice) turned them down, the moved on to #2.  They didn't interview #3, 4, 5, and 6 and take several weeks.  

Are there any examples of schools interviewing multiple candidates then choosing one (as opposed to being turned down and moving to the next)?  

[HarveysWallbangers]

How can you say "it's been made clear there was no panic." Because you and others have stated that, it does not make it clear.

If you ask me, it's crystal clear that there WAS panic. A clearly thought out process would not have resulted in hiring a guy with 10 months of high D1 basketball experience.

We wouldn't hire a trainer with that kind of experience. It was absolutely a panic hire.

[Pakuni]

How can you say "it's been made clear there was no panic." Because you and others have stated that, it does not make it clear.

If you ask me, it's crystal clear that there WAS panic. A clearly thought out process would not have resulted in hiring a guy with 10 months of high D1 basketball experience.

We wouldn't hire a trainer with that kind of experience. It was absolutely a panic hire.

Please explain how a program that plays in a high-major conference, has appeared in three consecutive NCAA tournaments (while winning four games), four consecutive post-season tournaments, and has won 95 games the past four seasons against high major competition is not, in fact, a high-major program.
Thanks.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Well Al McGuire, Dick Bennett, Bo Ryan, and many others were small school HCs and they did pretty well in high level Div 1.

This argument is silly------as both small HCs and big school assistants both have the potential for success at the major college level----depends on the individual qualifications of the person. Both origins are good preparations for the big time!

Correct...because they cut their teeth at the lower levels first as a HC rather than throwing them in on their first job.  Can it work for assistants going to a HC position at a high level directly....sure.  Tom Crean is an example, though many people argue he was a lowsy game coach so who knows.

At the day, when you're in a position of strength, hire accordingly.  When you're desperate, hire the assistant because you have nothing to lose.  We took the opposite position....let's hope it works out.

I'm off to mow the front and back yard...peace...out.

[ChicosBailBonds]

"  Monson also inherited a disaster at Minnesota but still got to the NCAAs.  Mike Deane got to the NCAAs. Tim Welsh got to the NCAAs"

Yep. No defending them. At all. 

By the way, using colors and extra large type size, the Internet equivalent of having a hissy fit, won't make you any less wrong, Chico's.
You clearly defended each and every one of them. Noting they were fired - quite an admission on your part - doesn't change that.

But thanks for pointing out my reading problem. I'll have to looked into right away.

Clearly that's not your point. If it were, you wouldn't be pining for the likes of Jim Les and Brad Brownell. Neither followed this so-called "transition to success." Yet you were ready to march upon the Al with torch and pitchfork in hand because MU didn't contact either.
Try as you might - and you're trying mightily - you can't have it both ways. You can't rip on the hiring of Buzz because he didn't follow the "transition to success" then say the administration should have talked to Les, Brownell, Lowery, etc.

Yep. We also skipped number 3 in hiring Tom Crean and Kevin O'Neill.
And we all know what disastrous hires those were.

Classic....you continue to ignore the exact words I said..."WERE THEY SUCCESSFUL....NO"   I then said they had SOME years where the delivered.

You're being so intellectually dishonest right now it's scary...I clearly said no, have now pointed it out to you two additional times...how you're ignoring that is truly amazing and unbelievable.


If I said Jimmy Carter did a nice job with Camp David Peace Accords does that mean I thought he did a nice job in his 4 years as president?  That's essentially the argument you're taking, because I said "some years" they delivered trumps over the very clear first thing I said which was NO THEY DID NOT SUCCEED.  Classic by you, truly classic.

[HarveysWallbangers]

You're citing statistics that were compiled after Williams left A&M. I agree they are in a high major conference. Were they a high major basketball program during Williams' time there? I think it's questionable.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Maybe you'd stand a better chance at having your points taken seriously if you stopped repeating this BS.

It's been made clear that there was no panic, no deadline.  There was a prioritized list of candidates, Buzz was on that list, and he was considered in the proper sequence.

You seem to have two beefs:

1.  You rank some candidates that were ranked behind Buzz ahead of him.  That's fine--we can debate that point all you want.  We've reached the point where there are examples you can cite on successful mid-major coaches, and examples I can cite on unsuccessful ones.  I've given you some very defensible reasons why Buzz was considered a strong candidate.   

The bottom line is that all reports suggest that Buzz was considered in sequence--whether he was third or fifth or seventh doesn't really matter--there were a number of choices ahead of him, and they all turned down MU's offer.  Your argument seems to be that somebody else should have been ranked ahead of him--but when you name names, it's easy to make the case that Buzz could be considered a better choice, depending on your criteria.

2. That leads to your next oft-repeated point--MU should have taken more time to interview additional candidates.  To which I've raised the question several times what SPECIFICALLY an interview is going to reveal?  No serious answers (except someone who made some remark about shaking hands).

Frankly, I don't see any evidence that ANY major program interviews five or six candidates before choosing one--I see evidence of programs successively interviewing candidates who turn them down, until one finally accepts.  Providence is a good example.  PC didn't decide on not hiring Davis over Larranga or Ford after a lengthy interview process.  Larranga turned them down.  Then they turned to Ford.  He turned them down.  Then they turned to Davis.  He accepted. 

Ditto with Indiana.  Did they interview five candidates before hiring Crean?  No.  Bennett (first choice) turned them down, the moved on to #2.  They didn't interview #3, 4, 5, and 6 and take several weeks. 

Are there any examples of schools interviewing multiple candidates then choosing one (as opposed to being turned down and moving to the next)? 

84....Ford was going to take the Providence job....OSU through back channels said don't do it, we'll pay 3X what they are going to pay....that won't appear in the press, but that's how it went down.  It will surface soon enough in the press, but nor for awhile.

Providence wanted to stay in their region which is why it took them as long as they did, they then went outside their region.

But seriously, is Providence the same as MU?  No.  Providence is in a world or hurt right now on all levels, their search should of and was more difficult then MU's.   

Doesn't change the fact MU got a risky hire which is near universally acknowledged by everyone except a small handful of people.  Doesn't mean he can't get it done, but was it necessary....I contend NO!

And sorry, it isn't BS about the first 48 hours, nothing of the sorts.  MU got turned down by too many of their original list and they got nervous and didn't want to go through much more of it so they quickly moved to their other choice, a man that was on their list all along no doubt (and would have been there a week later as well).

[nola03]

I discount completely a guy like Brownell because his experience consists of DePauw, Evansville, Indianapolis, UNC-W and Wright State.  Marquette would easily be the biggest school he's been at since he left high school.

This list is much more impressive:

Navarro College (1990-92), Oklahoma City (1992-94), Texas-Arlington (1994-98), Texas A&M-Kingsville (1998-99), Northwestern State (1999-2000), Colorado State (2000-04), Texas A&M (2004-06), Marquette (2007-08).

I didn't know three of those schools even existed before 6 weeks ago.

[Pakuni]

You're citing statistics that were compiled after Williams left A&M. I agree they are in a high major conference. Were they a high major basketball program during Williams' time there? I think it's questionable.

They were 43-19 in Williams' two years there, including 18-14 in the Big 12 and a NCAA Tournament win.
On top of that, teams that Buzz played a significant role in recruiting have won 52 games in the past two years and won three NCAA Tournament games.

I guess there's two ways you can look at this.
Either A&M is and has been a major program or Buzz Williams was part of a magical transformation of a mid-major program to a high-major program in less than three years.

[Pakuni]

This list is much more impressive:

Navarro College (1990-92), Oklahoma City (1992-94), Texas-Arlington (1994-98), Texas A&M-Kingsville (1998-99), Northwestern State (1999-2000), Colorado State (2000-04), Texas A&M (2004-06), Marquette (2007-08).

I didn't know three of those schools even existed before 6 weeks ago.

Actually, it is much more impressive.

Mountain West, Big 12 and Big East vs. Great Lakes Valley, Colonial and Horizon.
I'd say there's a tad bit of disparity between the two resumes, in that regard.

[Pakuni]

Classic....you continue to ignore the exact words I said..."WERE THEY SUCCESSFUL....NO"   I then said they had SOME years where the delivered.

You're being so intellectually dishonest right now it's scary...I clearly said no, have now pointed it out to you two additional times...how you're ignoring that is truly amazing and unbelievable.

Wow, ease up on the righteous indignation.
If you can point out where I suggested that you called those guys successful, please do. I can save you some time, though, and let you know I never said that.

What I did say is that you defended them/their tenures, and that's exactly what you did.
For example, on Monson you said he "inherited a disaster at Minnesota but still got to the NCAAs."
No further point in continuing if you can't recognize the difference.

[nola03]

Actually, it is much more impressive.

Mountain West, Big 12 and Big East vs. Great Lakes Valley, Colonial and Horizon.
I'd say there's a tad bit of disparity between the two resumes, in that regard.

Yeah, that's why I wrote it was much more impressive.

[nola03]

They were 43-19 in Williams' two years there, including 18-14 in the Big 12 and a NCAA Tournament win.
On top of that, teams that Buzz played a significant role in recruiting have won 52 games in the past two years and won three NCAA Tournament games.

I guess there's two ways you can look at this.
Either A&M is and has been a major program or Buzz Williams was part of a magical transformation of a mid-major program to a high-major program in less than three years.

What teams are you talking about in the bolded?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Wow, ease up on the righteous indignation.
If you can point out where I suggested that you called those guys successful, please do. I can save you some time, though, and let you know I never said that.

What I did say is that you defended them/their tenures, and that's exactly what you did.
For example, on Monson you said he "inherited a disaster at Minnesota but still got to the NCAAs."
No further point in continuing if you can't recognize the difference.

Your interpretation of "defending someone" is absurd.  My comments were a point in fact...Monson did inherit a disaster...that is true.  I also said he wasn't successful and was fired as a result.  There was no defense of Monson or anyone else, I simply said they were not successful, they were fired as a result though they did deliver some years (that doesn't make them overall successful nor does it defend those coaches).  A better coach could have prevailed...Monson wasn't that guy.

You're playing your psycho babble BS again, I know what I wrote and I know what my intentions were, and they certainly weren't to defend anyone. 

Just like the other day when you tried to play that with Mike DeCourcey to interpret what he was saying...a simple email to Mike proved that was not the case.  He did not at all mean what you interpreted his words to mean.  It seems you're going out of your way to interpret intent to fit your argument rather then letting the words speak for themselves...just my opinion.

I'm sorry if you take my words and Mike's a different way then intended, perhaps that's our fault in not clearly stating them for you.  I'll have to try harder to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR from here on out, but something tells me even if I say "I'm not defending someone" you reach deep into your psychoanalytic background to say I (or other posters) are anyway.   

[Gato78]

The AD was still involved in the decision...let's not be naive about it...Hank's guy had a foot in the water and then did a 180 and said no....the athletic department was in shambles when Cords took over, absolute shambles.  The previous AD's (Raymonds being the most recent), the board, the university administration, had let the program go into the toilet on so many levels.  Facilities ancient, weight room a joke for most high schools, etc, etc.

Hank has and still does a ton for Marquette University.  An ambassador of the program.  That doesn't take away the reality that MU's slide began with Hank as head coach, with his successor that he hired (Majerus) and with the following replacement...Dukiet.  Classic MU parochialism. 

So when Hank offered to coach one year as interim coach, who turned him down, himself? Were you even around then? Do you remember Hank was politely shown the door for Rick when Hank was athletic director? I think you are laying a bit too much on Hank and not enough on the other powers that were involved and to whom Hank answered.

[Pakuni]

What teams are you talking about in the bolded?

The last two A&M teams.
Buzz recruited a large part of the rosters for both those teams, including -- I think -- a majority of the starters.

[mviale]

Hank did not hire Dukiet. Hank's guy was Mike Newell. When Newell took a pass, Hank offered to coach for one year on an interim basis. The Athletic Board had power in those days and decided not to take Hank up on that offer. MU then turned to Dukiet, in many respects because Billy Packer recommended him (Billy was at the height of his "popularity"). I think it is totally wrong to hang Dukiet on Hank. I think the (thankfully) now defunct Athletic board is responsible.

OT ~ Mike Newell vs. Dukiet - that is a hard choice.  Dukiet had a great pedigree coming in - lead assistent for Pete Carrill and Huge success at St Peters as a Head coach. ( they were actually quite good - I recall them beating tough Rutgers and Seton Hall teams in the 80's).

You just never know what will happen - check out the pedigree on Dukiet and now he is a lounge singer:
"The one former Princeton assistant with star power written all over him was Bob Dukiet, a former BC star who, with his blonde hair, warm personality and great sense of humor, was a good recruiter and well-liked by his players. He left Princeton for low DI St. Peter's and put them on the map in a serious way in the mid-1980's, getting them to a few NCAA tournaments and winning about 70% of his games. After St. Peter's, Dukiet took a big-time step up to Marquette, where he was picked to succeed the beloved Rick Majerus, and his record from 1986-1989 was 39-46. Unfortunately, that was a tall order, and Dukiet ended up at Division II Gannon University in Erie, where he led the school to the Elite 8 of the NCAA DII tournament (he was there from 1989-1996). Out of basketball now, the affable Dukiet -- this is a true story -- makes his living as a lounge singer. "

[ChicosBailBonds]

So when Hank offered to coach one year as interim coach, who turned him down, himself? Were you even around then? Do you remember Hank was politely shown the door for Rick when Hank was athletic director? I think you are laying a bit too much on Hank and not enough on the other powers that were involved and to whom Hank answered.

No, MU turned him down...and rightfully so.  Was I there...no.  Were many of us that worked there given the download over the years of various stories of who, when, why, how, etc over the course of history involving MU athletics....some by Hank himself.  Yes.

Hank did great things for MU.  That doesn't change my opinion that some people are cut out to be great assistant coaches and not head coaches, or great Vice Presidents at a company but not Presidents, or great writers but not necessarily great bureau chiefs.  Etc, etc. 

Is Hank solely responsible for hiring Dukiet?  No.  There were many committees and all kinds of nonsense back then....Scooter (Jim Scott) putting his two cents in all the time along with a lot of other folks that had too much power.  But he was the AD and from what I was told, that was one of Hank's failings...he was too nice, wasn't able to grab the power he was entitled to by position.  He let too many people weigh in to the point there wasn't much control.  Too nice of a guy.

[ChicosBailBonds]

OT ~ Mike Newell vs. Dukiet - that is a hard choice.  Dukiet had a great pedigree coming in - lead assistent for Pete Carrill and Huge success at St Peters as a Head coach. ( they were actually quite good - I recall them beating tough Rutgers and Seton Hall teams in the 80's).

You just never know what will happen - check out the pedigree on Dukiet and now he is a lounge singer:
"The one former Princeton assistant with star power written all over him was Bob Dukiet, a former BC star who, with his blonde hair, warm personality and great sense of humor, was a good recruiter and well-liked by his players. He left Princeton for low DI St. Peter's and put them on the map in a serious way in the mid-1980's, getting them to a few NCAA tournaments and winning about 70% of his games. After St. Peter's, Dukiet took a big-time step up to Marquette, where he was picked to succeed the beloved Rick Majerus, and his record from 1986-1989 was 39-46. Unfortunately, that was a tall order, and Dukiet ended up at Division II Gannon University in Erie, where he led the school to the Elite 8 of the NCAA DII tournament (he was there from 1989-1996). Out of basketball now, the affable Dukiet -- this is a true story -- makes his living as a lounge singer. "

Bob had a few other issues to which...ahem...let's just say were not societally normal. 


Incidentally, it was Hubie Brown and Jud Heathcoate that recommended Dukiet.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=385779


In the same article, Rick Majerus believes it's better to hire from outside the program rather then from within....of course he also says MU shouldn't be in the Big East (though I actually agree with him a bit on that).

[ChicosBailBonds]

If you want some of background on Dukiet, here are some good comments from Hank, Rusk, etc in Pippines book that came out a few years ago.  Dukiet starts on page 55 in chapter 6.  He's in chapter 7 as well.


http://books.google.com/books?id=7WR3lOb0GyEC&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=bob+dukiet&source=web&ots=r-aZ9BKSPj&sig=-_KIigS7c-9Pt61Sy7t2ODWnhso&hl=en#PPA54,M1

[nola03]

The last two A&M teams.
Buzz recruited a large part of the rosters for both those teams, including -- I think -- a majority of the starters.

Since you do a lot of research, and I'm too lazy, can you confirm any of that?

You write "I think" which opens the door for some doubt.

[Pakuni]

Since you do a lot of research, and I'm too lazy, can you confirm any of that?

You write "I think" which opens the door for some doubt.

According to an interview Buzz conducted with Todd Rosiak last year (when hired as an asistant) he recruited eight of the nine players who signed at A&M while Gillispie was coach.
Obviously we're taking Buzz at his word here.
Those players include:

Josh Carter -- started 34 games in 06-07, 36 in 07-08
Antanas Kavaliauskas --started 34 games in 06-07
Donald Sloan -- started 36 games in 07-08 (played 19 mpg off the bench in 06-07)
Derrick Roland -- 19 mpg off bench in 07-08
Brian Davis -- started 15 games in 07-08
DeAndre Jordan -- started 21 games in 07-08

So, it appears he recruited two starters on the 2006-07 team and three/four on last year's team. Not bad, considering he was there for two seasons.

http://blogs.jsonline.com/muhoops/archive/2007/07/06/Buzz-Williams-interview.aspx

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaab/teams/tan/stats?year=2007

[nola03]

According to an interview Buzz conducted with Todd Rosiak last year (when hired as an asistant) he recruited eight of the nine players who signed at A&M while Gillispie was coach.
Obviously we're taking Buzz at his word here.
Those players include:

Josh Carter -- started 34 games in 06-07, 36 in 07-08
Antanas Kavaliauskas --started 34 games in 06-07
Donald Sloan -- started 36 games in 07-08 (played 19 mpg off the bench in 06-07)
Derrick Roland -- 19 mpg off bench in 07-08
Brian Davis -- started 15 games in 07-08
DeAndre Jordan -- started 21 games in 07-08

So, it appears he recruited two starters on the 2006-07 team and three/four on last year's team. Not bad, considering he was there for two seasons.

http://blogs.jsonline.com/muhoops/archive/2007/07/06/Buzz-Williams-interview.aspx

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaab/teams/tan/stats?year=2007

Huh. So, according to that, it seems Buzz Williams is really the reason behind Gillispie's success at A&M.

I wonder why A&M didn't hire him back from UNO when Gillispie left for Kentucky.

[Pakuni]

Huh. So, according to that, it seems Buzz Williams is really the reason behind Gillispie's success at A&M.

Yes.
That's exactly what I said.