More great publicity, now from Sporting News....Marquette in a panic

[Big Papi]

4ever   it seems doubtful?  What is the evidence of that at this early point in the recruiting process?

Especially since he is 1 for 1 for 2009.

[Marquette84]

If anything, the article asks the same questions I and many others asked...why the hire so fast?  I'm fine with Buzz, but would have been more fine with him 5 days later. 

The counterargument to this strategy is that by waiting those extra five days and interviewing three or four additional "creative" choices,  Buzz's hire would then be spun by the competition as "MU can't get a decent coach wound up settling".  Even if Buzz was preferred over Lowrey and Brownell after another week's worth of interviews, nobody would believe it--the spin would be that Brownell and Lowrey turned MU down.

That would neither benefit Buzz nor MU.

How do we know that would happen?  Because thats exactly what people are saying about Providence. They could have hired Keno Davis on day three, and they could argue that landing Davis was a coup because he's a fast rising great young coach.  But taking that extra time, Davis is painted as "setttling" after Ford, Larranga, and multiple others turned them down.

The difference is that in Providence case, it appears to be true.  They didn't wat Davis, at least early on.

In MU's case, there appears to be some pretty strong evidence that they REALLY like Buzz and he was one of the top choice after Miller and Bennett.

[4thAndState]

4everWarrior wrote: "Granted no concrete evidence at this point other than TT. Just my perception that top tier players, who BTW aspire to play in the Association, aren't going to trust their basketball futures with an unknown commodity like Buzz when more sucessful coaches are calling."

I agree to some extent, but we can also cite many examples where a new coach comes in and gets NBA-caliber players very early in his tenure. Heck, TC did it with Wade, TD, and Novak. Bo may have had some as well. That's just local examples.

[4everwarriors]

I have heard we never discussed any figures with either coach. There was a feeler out to gauge interest. I suspect if  the feelers were MU will pay 2mm, Bennet's people would have opened discussions. Money never came out, MU was just trying to find out if there was mutual ground. Beleive me, 2mm would have moved TB out of Pulman.

MU should have run to throw $2mil at Bennett. Would have been money well spent.

[Pakuni]

I'm fine with Buzz in the sense that he's our coach and I want him to do well....but no, I don't think he was the best choice at the time of the hiring.  There were better candidates to be had, IMO, if MU would have been a little creative.  

Well now, there's an unprovable/unrefutable claim.
I guess I could just as easily have said "If only Marquette had waited and been more creative, Mike D'Antonio was there for them."

Though, pray tell, what are these "creative" options of which you speak? Partial ownership of the university? A percentage of ticket sales? Seriously ... where does creativity fit in all this?

I understand that plenty of people aren't happy with Buzz Williams, head coach, Marquette University. That's fine with me.
I just wish some of you would admit it instead of this "if they had waited/if there were a better process" stuff. That's nothing more than you guys hedging your bets.
This way if Buzz does really well you can save face. After all, you never said he was bad, just the process.
But if he fails you can still say "I told you so."

[ChicosBailBonds]

I swear Homer said on one of his shows that MU offered Bennett either right under $2mil or $2mil exactly and Bennett said no.

Wouldn't surprise me, and if MU did....big thumbs up for trying with him. The Bennetts were given new life at Wazzu and setup what they did for Dick and Tony.  Doesn't surprise me that Tony is going to remain loyal, especially early on.

I've never heard a figure or even if one was offered, but my guess is it would take an amount like to get him interested.  MU certainly seemed to go strong the first 36 hours after folks and then......

[Gato78]

MU should have run to throw $2mil at Bennett. Would have been money well spent.

Tony Bennett was well aware of the money he could make at Marquette and chose not to pursue the job. I know MU spoke with many, many well respected and entrenched coaches about the job. I know Tony Bennett was one coach MU targeted, and MU had informal discussions with him/his people, but it never went anywhere. Bennett was not interested. It is laughable that the perspective by some is that MU somehow ignored Bennett and others (notably Miller and Lowry). You can criticize the hiring but you cannot criticize the process as it was actually quite thorough. Remember, MU is holding this stuff very close to the vest for obvious reasons. I wouldn't count on a Cottingham presser to tell the world all the people he talked to about the job. Buzz was the winner for a variety of reasons--some attributed to the non-interest of other possible candidates but primarily because of the qualities Buzz brings to the table as it related to the interested candidates. The college basketball world was well aware of the money and substantial perks offered by MU. I know this as a result of a discussion I had with a friend of an existing D1 coach who spoke with MU (no one at MU or Indiana). My friend spoke with the coach about the MU job and was surprised to learn he was contacted by MU. That coach was impressed with how MU worked the process. The complaints about how MU went about their business are ridiculous because they are not based on facts--only that Buzz was given the job more quickly than some would prefer.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The counterargument to this strategy is that by waiting those extra five days and interviewing three or four additional "creative" choices,  Buzz's hire would then be spun by the competition as "MU can't get a decent coach wound up settling".  Even if Buzz was preferred over Lowrey and Brownell after another week's worth of interviews, nobody would believe it--the spin would be that Brownell and Lowrey turned MU down.

That would neither benefit Buzz nor MU.

How do we know that would happen?  Because thats exactly what people are saying about Providence. They could have hired Keno Davis on day three, and they could argue that landing Davis was a coup because he's a fast rising great young coach.  But taking that extra time, Davis is painted as "setttling" after Ford, Larranga, and multiple others turned them down.

The difference is that in Providence case, it appears to be true.  They didn't wat Davis, at least early on.

In MU's case, there appears to be some pretty strong evidence that they REALLY like Buzz and he was one of the top choice after Miller and Bennett.

I don't think it's ever a bad thing to go into a recruits home and say you won 5 of the 6 National Coach of the Year awards.  Providence was looking for a guy with PC ties or an East Coast guy, but still ended up with someone, that at least on paper, has some cred.  I don't think PC ended up with someone they didn't want, they just went after a very defined search and even weeks later ended up with the National Coach of the Year.  Not bad.

[nola03]

Tony Bennett was well aware of the money he could make at Marquette and chose not to pursue the job. I know MU spoke with many, many well respected and entrenched coaches about the job. I know Tony Bennett was one coach MU targeted, and MU had informal discussions with him/his people, but it never went anywhere. Bennett was not interested. It is laughable that the perspective by some is that MU somehow ignored Bennett and others (notably Miller and Lowry). You can criticize the hiring but you cannot criticize the process as it was actually quite thorough. Remember, MU is holding this stuff very close to the vest for obvious reasons. I wouldn't count on a Cottingham presser to tell the world all the people he talked to about the job. Buzz was the winner for a variety of reasons--some attributed to the non-interest of other possible candidates but primarily because of the qualities Buzz brings to the table as it related to the interested candidates. The college basketball world was well aware of the money and substantial perks offered by MU. I know this as a result of a discussion I had with a friend of an existing D1 coach who spoke with MU (no one at MU or Indiana). My friend spoke with the coach about the MU job and was surprised to learn he was contacted by MU. That coach was impressed with how MU worked the process. The complaints about how MU went about their business are ridiculous because they are not based on facts--only that Buzz was given the job more quickly than some would prefer.

I'm sure all you write is the truth. However, essentially, Buzz was hired 48 hours after Crean was introduced at Indiana. It was fairly well known to anyone who pays one iota of attention that Buzz Williams would be the next coach by Friday morning of that week. I think it also bugs some people that Crean had his hands in the hiring.

Maybe the search was thorough in who was informally contacted but considering only one person interviewed for the job and it was that person's job to lose people still have a right to think the process wasn't as thorough as it could have been.

Hell, PC spent 6 weeks looking for a coach and had 3 candidates in for a final walk through and still landed the reigning National Coach of the Year. The only people who will remember the specifics of that search are UConn fans when they make fun of the Friars. Otherwise, people will say "nice, they just got the coach of the year".

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Granted no concrete evidence at this point other than TT. Just my perception that top tier players, who BTW aspire to play in the Association, aren't going to trust their basketball futures with an unknown commodity like Buzz when more sucessful coaches are calling.

I know where you are going with this... but Tom Crean was able to recruit Dwyane Wade and Scott Merrit, both of whom have been on NBA rosters when he was an unknown commodity.

I'm not saying it happens all of the time, but it does happen... so claiming that Buzz can't make it happen is a little premature.

Give him more than 6 weeks.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Tony Bennett was well aware of the money he could make at Marquette and chose not to pursue the job. I know MU spoke with many, many well respected and entrenched coaches about the job. I know Tony Bennett was one coach MU targeted, and MU had informal discussions with him/his people, but it never went anywhere. Bennett was not interested. It is laughable that the perspective by some is that MU somehow ignored Bennett and others (notably Miller and Lowry). You can criticize the hiring but you cannot criticize the process as it was actually quite thorough. Remember, MU is holding this stuff very close to the vest for obvious reasons. I wouldn't count on a Cottingham presser to tell the world all the people he talked to about the job. Buzz was the winner for a variety of reasons--some attributed to the non-interest of other possible candidates but primarily because of the qualities Buzz brings to the table as it related to the interested candidates. The college basketball world was well aware of the money and substantial perks offered by MU. I know this as a result of a discussion I had with a friend of an existing D1 coach who spoke with MU (no one at MU or Indiana). My friend spoke with the coach about the MU job and was surprised to learn he was contacted by MU. That coach was impressed with how MU worked the process. The complaints about how MU went about their business are ridiculous because they are not based on facts--only that Buzz was given the job more quickly than some would prefer.

As for one of the names you mentioned above, are you sure everyone you mentioned was contacted.    EVERYONE?      As for what people know or don't know, well there's a lot of that going on.  Let's not forget how many experts there were just a few weeks ago on Crean's contract and what the buyout was, what IU was going to owe us, what kind of lawsuits were going to start flying, etc, etc....most of them proved to be totally wrong.   Or the fact that others have spoken to a few AD's, current coaches (both head and assistant) about the MU hire with some interesting responses.  It's all in who you speak with.

I'm sure MU's "process" was wonderful with those they spoke with, I'd expect nothing less.  And I totally agree MU would keep the candidates close to the vest, that's always been MU's M.O. as it should be.  It also very likely that they did settle (I use that term purposely) on Buzz early in the process and thought he was THE GUY.  That's fine, that's their decision and if it doesn't work out none of them will be held accountabl (though they should be).

But let's not make it out to be more then it was either.  MU reached out to a few other coaches like Davidson's, Ga. Tech's and a few others.  But exhaustive is not what it was nor was it creative, but it was swift...we got that part down.

By the way, how do you feel about the exhaustive search for an AD?  


Pakuni....when I say "creative" I mean thinking about a coach that is in a situation that he might want to make a move.  Much like LSU did with Trent Johnson or OSU with Ford.  Half of the game is identifying the guy that everyone thinks is stable and not going anywhere, but that requires a bit of creativity and a bit of dilligent work.  Someone that had a senior laden team that just graduated, someone that has a new AD who didn't hire him and might feel a bit unloved, etc, etc.  I provided those examples in the past.

It all comes back to March 31, 2008.  MU and it's officials had NO CLUE ON PLANET EARTH that they were losing their coach.  NONE.   Do I blame them...no.   Did they panic....well the national media thinks so and I'm a firm believer in everything the national media says.  

[nyg]

Six weeks later and I still can't believe Anthony Grant is still the coach at VCU AND signed an extended contract.  Would we have received an "A".

[ChicosBailBonds]

I know where you are going with this... but Tom Crean was able to recruit Dwyane Wade and Scott Merrit, both of whom have been on NBA rosters when he was an unknown commodity.

I'm not saying it happens all of the time, but it does happen... so claiming that Buzz can't make it happen is a little premature.

Give him more than 6 weeks.

I don't think Merritt made it to a NBA roster.  NBDL, but not NBA.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Six weeks later and I still can't believe Anthony Grant is still the coach at VCU AND signed an extended contract.  Would we have received an "A".

Grant, according to the folks I spoke with, was contacted. He wants to stay in the south.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Pakuni....when I say "creative" I mean thinking about a coach that is in a situation that he might want to make a move.  Much like LSU did with Trent Johnson or OSU with Ford.  Half of the game is identifying the guy that everyone thinks is stable and not going anywhere, but that requires a bit of creativity and a bit of dilligent work.  Someone that had a senior laden team that just graduated, someone that has a new AD who didn't hire him and might feel a bit unloved, etc, etc.  I provided those examples in the past.

Not to sound like a wet blanket, but taking on a coach who is leaving just because he lost all of his seniors, or because he was feeling "unloved" wouldn't make me very confident that he would stay at MU for very long.

I know what you are going for (and you could be right)... but there are issues with every candidate... no matter how "creative" MU got.

Hell, to be honest, Buzz is sort of a "creative" hire when you think about it.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I don't think Merritt made it to a NBA roster.  NBDL, but not NBA.

Wasn't he on the Bulls roster for pre-season? (not sure if we are counting that)

I don't want to be inaccurate... I guess my point is that new coaches can get talent... it's not always about "veteran coaches".

[ChicosBailBonds]

Not to sound like a wet blanket, but taking on a coach who is leaving just because he lost all of his seniors, or because he was feeling "unloved" wouldn't make me very confident that he would stay at MU for very long.

I know what you are going for (and you could be right)... but there are issues with every candidate... no matter how "creative" MU got.

Hell, to be honest, Buzz is sort of a "creative" hire when you think about it.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but that's how coaches operate.  I don't think anyone would have been surprised at MU if Crean had left at the end of next year, with all his seniors done.  But many coaches, as skiddish as they are about their gig, often look for that new big pay day at a new school with a nice shiny 5 year contract and lower expectations during the first few years.

I don't know if I would call Buzz a creative hire.....somewhat surprising, somewhat risky, somewhat unexpected....not my words, those of the national media which I love so much.   

[Nukem2]

What is really interesting about the SI article first referenced in this thread is that Mike DeCourcy takes Stanford to the shed for its hire of Johnny Dawkins.  DeCourcy reports that Dawkins duties at Duke never included recruiting.  Also, he notes that Duke recruits guys that can control a game whereas SU is quite the opposite (obviously excluding the Lopezii).  He gave Buzz a grade of "B" and Dawkins a "D+".  I've posted often in various places that Dawkins was a riskier pick than Buzz.  Obviously, DeCourcy agress.  He also states that Buzz iss probabably far more ready to be a HC than most assistants.  DeCourcy also says that Keno Davis is an "incomplete" because who knows waht his staff will be (not to mention that he won't have senior laden teams in the Mizzous valley to carry him).  I think DeCorucy has a good feel here.

[Schoolyard]

Wasn't he on the Bulls roster for pre-season? (not sure if we are counting that)

I don't want to be inaccurate... I guess my point is that new coaches can get talent... it's not always about "veteran coaches".

No 02, we're not counting preseason rosters (KO would get Shannon Smith then).  Despite being a great guy, SM is probably the most disappointing recruit of TC's regime.  Anytime ESPN telecasts focused on how Bo Ellis and Mr Merrit brainstorm weekly had to motivate Merrit, you should know he's not the guy you want to use in your defense of TC (of course you maybe too young to remember the Merritt days).

Plus TC's handling of Devin Harris recruitment (He told DH, keep passing the ball to Scott, he's your meal ticket) is another reason not to bring up Tosa East recruiting...cough Jerry Smith cough.

[Pakuni]

What is really interesting about the SI article first referenced in this thread is that Mike DeCourcy takes Stanford to the shed for its hire of Johnny Dawkins.  DeCourcy reports that Dawkins duties at Duke never included recruiting.  Also, he notes that Duke recruits guys that can control a game whereas SU is quite the opposite (obviously excluding the Lopezii).  He gave Buzz a grade of "B" and Dawkins a "D+".  I've posted often in various places that Dawkins was a riskier pick than Buzz.  Obviously, DeCourcy agress.  He also states that Buzz iss probabably far more ready to be a HC than most assistants.  DeCourcy also says that Keno Davis is an "incomplete" because who knows waht his staff will be (not to mention that he won't have senior laden teams in the Mizzous valley to carry him).  I think DeCorucy has a good feel here.

Yep.
DeCourcy believes MU got a better hire than OSU (Ford), Stanford (Dawkins) and, at least for now, Providence (Davis).
Of course, those claiming that DeCourcy's "mere" B grade for Marquette is bad publicity fail to mention that ... perhaps because they were here in recent weeks talking about how great Providence, Stanford and OSU did with their hires.

[Dienerfor3]

If anyone actually read what the Sporting News guy was saying, they would notice he was saying they were in a panic trying to find a coach, not in a panic now.  Proper grammar people, don't you understand?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

No 02, we're not counting preseason rosters (KO would get Shannon Smith then).  Despite being a great guy, SM is probably the most disappointing recruit of TC's regime.  Anytime ESPN telecasts focused on how Bo Ellis and Mr Merrit brainstorm weekly had to motivate Merrit, you should know he's not the guy you want to use in your defense of TC (of course you maybe too young to remember the Merritt days).

Plus TC's handling of Devin Harris recruitment (He told DH, keep passing the ball to Scott, he's your meal ticket) is another reason not to bring up Tosa East recruiting...cough Jerry Smith cough.

That's fair.

The only reason I mention it is because there was a claim that "inexperienced coaches can't bring in kids who want to be in the association". (this was in reference to Buzz)

My point was that inexperienced coaches CAN bring in NBA level talent (or at least kids who think they have it).

Dwyane, Merrit, Deiner were all in Crean's 1st 2 classes... when Crean wasn't really proven.

We can take Merrit out of the equation (as you have clearly illustrated), but Crean was able to recruit 1 NBA player in each of his first 3 classes. (Wade, Deiner, Novak)

(BTW, this is not a pro-Crean post, I'm just making a point about "unproven coaches"... so please, let's not start a pro-crean/anti-crean thread)

Does this make sense?

[CTWarrior]

Chic's and Niv...Right on!!! I have been critical of Buzz hiring but who does not want him succeed? The process of hiring and national reaction to the hiring is what I am disappointed in. Buzz might be John Wooden and I hope that happens.

I want him to succeed, too, and I know I am getting way ahead of myself, but if by chance Coach Buzz is the next coming of John Wooden, he'll be doing his coaching elsewhere in five years.  Its another reason not to like this hiring process.  If this guy is great, there is nothing about him that suggests he would hang around.

[Pakuni]

I want him to succeed, too, and I know I am getting way ahead of myself, but if by chance Coach Buzz is the next coming of John Wooden, he'll be doing his coaching elsewhere in five years.  Its another reason not to like this hiring process.  If this guy is great, there is nothing about him that suggests he would hang around.

What's the alternative? Hiring someone who would never draw interest from other programs?
That doesn't sound like a very solid plan.

Interestingly enough, that was the same logic used nine years ago by those who didn't want Crean. They were sure he'd be gone in less than five years. Of course, he stayed at MU nine years and, I'd venture to guess, would have been around much longer if not for Kelvin Sampson's stupidity.

[Big Papi]

I want him to succeed, too, and I know I am getting way ahead of myself, but if by chance Coach Buzz is the next coming of John Wooden, he'll be doing his coaching elsewhere in five years.  Its another reason not to like this hiring process.  If this guy is great, there is nothing about him that suggests he would hang around.

Then you are really limiting yourself to only a handful of coaches who are probably too old to move in 5 years time.  That is not a criteria I would use to hire a coach.