Nick Williams to IU

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think the point is, IF a MU coach brought recruits with him the likliness of people being upset here would not be that high.  People would accept them with open arms.

But to some extent that has happened anyway, and by our own admission.  Cottingham said MU hired Williams for continuity.  Buzz's hire kept Fulce and Otule at MU.  If Buzz wasn't hired, I'd be shocked if Fulce was still coming to MU.  People were thrilled with this announcement just a week ago. Yes, the major difference is that Buzz was still on MU's staff, but these kids are largely playing for a coach, not a university.  Not always, but largely that is the case.  It's usually after they've been at the school for awhile that they become attached to the university and become loyal to it.

Why would a 17 or 18 year old kid be loyal to a university they've spent all of 2 or 3 days on campus for during a recruiting visit?  It's just not going to happen usually.  Williams allegiance is to Bennie Seltzer (at IU) and Tom Crean (at IU).  I don't see what's unethical about it, that's where the kid wants to play that's where the kid said he would be happy.  At some point, don't we want the student athletes to be happy to in their choice of a college \ coach? 

[mr.MUskie]

Yeah, but, like mentioned above, MU paid Crean $$$$$$$ last year to recruit kids to MU, not to Crean.  Obviously he didn't do too much recruiting of this kid on IU's dime.

[3Mer]

What I wanted and expected was for Crean not to actively interfere with MU's incoming recruiting class -- after having already been paid handsomely by MU to recruit those same players.

There's a difference between (1) a commited recruit deciding for himself to seek a release from his LOI due to a coaching change; and (2) a former coach soliciting committed recruits on behalf of his new employer.

[rocky_warrior]

He already collected his salary for 2007-2008, which included payment for recruiting the same players he is now soliciting for Indiana, many of whom had signed letters of intent.

Unless I'm forgetting something, Nick Williams is the only player who had signed a LOI that will be going to IU. 

Jamil Wilson is the only other "prize" that Crean may get that he had recruited for Marquette.  Yeah he got Capobianco, but I'm not losing any sleep over that.

[3Mer]

Unless I'm forgetting something, Nick Williams is the only player who had signed a LOI that will be going to IU. 

Jamil Wilson is the only other "prize" that Crean may get that he had recruited for Marquette.  Yeah he got Capobianco, but I'm not losing any sleep over that.

So you think N. Williams, Wilson and Capobianco are the only MU recruits that Crean solicited after cashing his MU paychecks?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yeah, but, like mentioned above, MU paid Crean $$$$$$$ last year to recruit kids to MU, not to Crean.  Obviously he didn't do too much recruiting of this kid on IU's dime.

Correct, but he's not paid by MU any longer.  Besides, it doesn't matter, the kid doesn't want to play for MU, he wants to play for Crean. 

At the end of the day, if Crean was still at MU, Taylor and Williams would be at MU.

[Litehouse]

The difference being MU paid Buzz's salary to perform the task of recruiting Fulce, Otule and EW, and MU also picked up all the expenses.  Buzz also used all the phone calls, visits, contacts, etc. alotted to MU for the recruiting period to recruit these players.

On the other hand, Crean recruited all these other players (NW, Capobianco, TT, and Jamil Wilson, plus I'm sure there were others) while on MU's payroll, MU picked up the tab, and the contacts/visits went against MU's total.  Now that Crean is at IU and has various recruiting restrictions, he's getting around the restrictions by poaching MU's recruits.  MU paid for both MU and IU's recruiting budgets this year.  I don't have a problem with NW going to IU, but IU should reimburse MU for the expenses.

You can bring up Fulce as the exception, since Buzz recruited him to UNO, but Fulce didn't come straight here and burned a year of eligibility at the Juco.  So essentially he sat out a year as a penalty, something NW won't have to do.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So you think N. Williams, Wilson and Capobianco are the only MU recruits that Crean solicited after cashing his MU paychecks?

When you go to a new job, do you take your Rolodex with you?  I sure as hell do.  I know it's not the same, but we're acting silly on this.  This is big boy basketball and this stuff happens all of the time.  It doesn't happen 100% of the time, but it happens all of the time.

The Stanford example is great for those that want to puff up Trent Johnson, but come on, how many Stanford admitted players (one of the greatest universities in the country) are going to leave that (plus leave California) to go play at LSU?   Not many, if any at all.  Johnson's statement is nice, but doesn't mean a whole lot in the reality of things.

[TallTitan34]

Best wishes to Nick in the NIT, however, . . .

... "when someone leaves, we want to rub it in!" - Dominic  James

[downtown85]

It doesn't happen 100% of the time, but it happens all of the time.

O.k., Chicos, name 5 recent coaching changes where the coach poached the incoming recruits from the school he left.  And name the players.  I cannot recall any high-profile change or player where that has occurred recently.  I believe that it just doesn't happen that often. 

Case in point, Darryl Arthur an orignal 5 star commit to Oklahoma de-committed from Oklahoma to go to Kansas when Sampson left.  Even the vilified Kelvin Sampson didn't try to poach him to Indiana.  You are a Kansas grad, you must've followed that situation.  i just think that there are certain rules coaches play by and Crean is way over the line on this.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

Here's another way to look at it, especially those of you in sales.  Crean is essentially the lead sales person for his corporation...i.e. IU Hoops.  When companies hire veteran sales folks, especially within the same industry, they are counting on those people to hit the ground running often with the same clients that bought from them at their previous job.  Whether it's as a broker, a wine sales guy, computer servers, television ad sales, etc.

Yes there are "no compete" clauses often and other such protections often put into place for employers, but this happens all the time.  That's part of what you hire a veteran sales guy for...established leads.  Since there aren't any no compete clauses in basketball, I see it as very similar.

Yes, it would be great if Crean didn't do this.  I'd argue if IU wasn't in the total crapper, he probably wouldn't have to do it as much as he is.  But he needs bodies quickly and so he's going to go after kids that want to play for him, just like the newly hired veteran sales guy is going to go to his/her well of leads to get a few quick hits to start off. 

It's only natural and should be expected, whether we like it or not.

[BrewCity83]

We don't like it.

[downtown85]

Here's another way to look at it, especially those of you in sales.  Crean is essentially the lead sales person for his corporation...i.e. IU Hoops.  When companies hire veteran sales folks, especially within the same industry, they are counting on those people to hit the ground running often with the same clients that bought from them at their previous job.  Whether it's as a broker, a wine sales guy, computer servers, television ad sales, etc.

Yes there are "no compete" clauses often and other such protections often put into place for employers, but this happens all the time.  That's part of what you hire a veteran sales guy for...established leads.  Since there aren't any no compete clauses in basketball, I see it as very similar.

Yes, it would be great if Crean didn't do this.  I'd argue if IU wasn't in the total crapper, he probably wouldn't have to do it as much as he is.  But he needs bodies quickly and so he's going to go after kids that want to play for him, just like the newly hired veteran sales guy is going to go to his/her well of leads to get a few quick hits to start off. 

It's only natural and should be expected, whether we like it or not.

I think the sales analogy is a good one.  However, as a customer when you buy the product or service you make a committment to the company, not the sales guy.  Almost always you sign a contract.  Sure you can back out of the contract and follow the sales guy but you will end up in court if you still have obligations under the contract.  In college hoops, since there is no real means of enforcing these commitments on teenagers, it up to the elders (coaches) to try to create rules among themselves and to teach the kids about honor and committment even if it doesn result in short term gratification.  The worst that can happen is that they receive a college education and graduate while living up to their commitment.  If they are NBA talent, most likely they will get discovered if they play division I, especially at a BCA school. Look at the Beasley at Kansas State.  He didn't need to follow huggy to WVA.  He'll still go first in the draft.

MU should've put a no IU clause in all the releases and that would have solved it.  Crean is still a scumbag for going after MU commits/recruits. 

[MR.HAYWARD]

Hey chicos why do you feel the need to come on here and refute every posters claim against our scumbag former coach?  I mean seriously do you get some sort of satisfaction defending our former coach?  
Beyond why you feel the need, there is absolutely and let me state again absolutely no defending Crean.  I have been involved in the game a long time and what coaches such as O'Neil did at MU and most recently Trent Johnson did at Stanford is the high character way of doing it.  There are hundreds of recruiting fish in the sea.  A class individual publicly tells his incoming recruits and any other commits to stick with their commitment.  Now in all fairness to the kid that does not mean they will.  But to not do that and then to actually recruit the kids including calling Erik Williams the day he left and attempt to re-recruit him to Indiana is 100% completely indefensible.  The man is a scumbag, who not only left his players and employers with out the class to left them know before everyone else, but then had the University truck the players to him, then on top of it all chooses to go after his former schools commits.  Now dont get me wrong recruiting guys like Lacy and Wilson, I have absolutely no problem with.  Going after guys like Erik and Nick Williams tho is yet another indication of what most of us knew about our former coach  

[bilsu]

If the 145 ranking is accurate, it really is not a big deal. I had an impression that he was going to be really good. Now it may turn out that way, but it is not like we lost a great player at this point.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think the sales analogy is a good one.  However, as a customer when you buy the product or service you make a committment to the company, not the sales guy.  Almost always you sign a contract.  Sure you can back out of the contract and follow the sales guy but you will end up in court if you still have obligations under the contract.  In college hoops, since there is no real means of enforcing these commitments on teenagers, it up to the elders (coaches) to try to create rules among themselves and to teach the kids about honor and committment even if it doesn result in short term gratification.  The worst that can happen is that they receive a college education and graduate while living up to their commitment.  If they are NBA talent, most likely they will get discovered if they play division I, especially at a BCA school. Look at the Beasley at Kansas State.  He didn't need to follow huggy to WVA.  He'll still go first in the draft.

MU should've put a no IU clause in all the releases and that would have solved it.  Crean is still a scumbag for going after MU commits/recruits. 

Not necessarily.  If you like your stock broker and he leaves from AG Edwards to go work at Morgan Stanley, you're going with your broker not with the company.  Happens in the ad agency business a ton.  Obviously there are examples against that analogy but you get the idea.



Mr. Hayward.....no, I don't feel the need to defend Crean.  In fact, I don't think I am defending him necessarily.  I'm just stating the reality of the situation.  I'm actually defending the student athletes to some extent.  No one is putting a gun to their head, they are human beings of free will with many other options to them.  Williams could have stayed at MU, could have gone to Arkansas but chose to go to play for Crean.  Is that Crean's fault?  Or is that Williams choice?   Seriously.  This is a free country, there are no rules being broken.  I get that people don't like it.  I don't like it, but there is nothing against the rules, there is nothing unethical about it.  If it was unethical, please show me where the NCAA states this isn't allowed or even frowned upon.  If you can show me that, it will sway my opinion.

I just think the bitterness is getting old (I was upset for a few days about the process of our hiring, but you move on).  These kids DON'T WANT TO BE AT MARQUETTE UNIVERSITY.  PERIOD.  They're 18 years old, they want to go elsewhere and that's the way it is. 


Williams is 145 in one rating service, in the 90's elsewhere.  I think he was in the top 100 RSCI but I can't recall.  A nice player.  6A Alabama player of the year which probably means he's pretty good.

[bma725]

Williams is 145 in one rating service, in the 90's elsewhere.  I think he was in the top 100 RSCI but I can't recall.  A nice player.  6A Alabama player of the year which probably means he's pretty good.

He's 145 in Rivals, unranked by Scout, HoopMasters, USA Today and Prepstars.  He was 70 on HoopScoop and 35th on ESPN/Bob Gibbons.  The 35th was basically enough to get him in the RSCI, though he was barely in at #95.

[ChicosBailBonds]

He's 145 in Rivals, unranked by Scout, HoopMasters, USA Today and Prepstars.  He was 70 on HoopScoop and 35th on ESPN/Bob Gibbons.  The 35th was basically enough to get him in the RSCI, though he was barely in at #95.

Gibbons was the only one to have Dwyane Wade in the top 100...he had him at 55.  Who knows who is right, these guys are typically all over the board.  He's got talent, but not a whole lot of good coaching at the high school level.

[77ncaachamps]

What is it about Coach Crean that made you want to play for him so badly?

NW: Him being a winner. Everybody loves winners. As I think about all the players that he’s developed, you can see the kind of talent he has. You can tell that he really loves his kids

Until he sneaks out on them.

Yup.

Williams must not have talked to DJ or Lazar.

[ChicosBailBonds]

According to the final report today, Williams chose IU over Arkansas, Kansas State, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech and Alabama.

[RawdogDX]

You mean a JUCO and a two-star uncommitted high school junior?

Hardly a double standard.

??? It's exactly a double standard.  If a new coach brings someone here when we hire him we are happy and think more of him for it.  If our coach leaves and brings a recruit to another school then he is a jerk.  It's the same thing.

[mviale]

Not many quality coaches take their recruits to their new gig, unless there is bad blood.  Is there bad blood? 


Can you imagine if this happened to Pitt, Kansas St, WVU, Kansas, etc...

[warthogdriver]

Tan Tommy with the Euro Trash Shades must be over the "flu"

[THEGYMBAR]

Let Crean take what he wants. If Buzz can recruit we will regroup next season. Buzz has work cut out for himself. My gut still says 12 months from now we will be in agreement MU made a mistake on this hire.

[BrewCity83]

These kids DON'T WANT TO BE AT MARQUETTE UNIVERSITY.  PERIOD.  They're 18 years old, they want to go elsewhere and that's the way it is. 

Maybe.  But maybe they don't want to be at MU now because Judas poisoned their minds about MU and trashed Buzz and the program after he slunk out of here.  These teenagers trust Judas, and are looking for guidance.  Don't think for a minute that he's not above doing that.