Baseball Pissing Match

[TallTitan34]

I have a problem with this CC no-hitter thing.  No way should he get it.  He didn't have to face the pressure in the late innings of carrying a one-hitter.

Bad calls (umps or scorers) happen all the time.  In 2004, Zambrano had a no-hitter with 2-outs in the bottom of the 8th in Arizona when a fill in ump from the minors blew a call at first base ending the no-hitter.  In 1998, Kerry Wood's 20K game was a one-hitter where the one hit was a infield single which could have been ruled an error.  There was no protest.  If CC wanted a no-hitter maybe he should have made the play so the scorer wouldn't be in a position to mess up.

I think if the Brewers want to protest, they should do what happens when MLB agrees with a protest.  Resume the game from the point of that play (see the George Brett appealed game).  For the Brewers, I believe it was 1-0 in the 5th.  : )

[wadesworld]

I have a problem with this CC no-hitter thing.  No way should he get it.  He didn't have to face the pressure in the late innings of carrying a one-hitter.

Bad calls (umps or scorers) happen all the time.  In 2004, Zambrano had a no-hitter with 2-outs in the bottom of the 8th in Arizona when a fill in ump from the minors blew a call at first base ending the no-hitter.  In 1998, Kerry Wood's 20K game was a one-hitter where the one hit was a infield single which could have been ruled an error.  There was no protest.  If CC wanted a no-hitter maybe he should have made the play so the scorer wouldn't be in a position to mess up.

I think if the Brewers want to protest, they should do what happens when MLB agrees with a protest.  Resume the game from the point of that play (see the George Brett appealed game).  For the Brewers, I believe it was 1-0 in the 5th.  : )

I understand the argument that he didn't have to face with the pressure of having a no hitter, but don't you think there was still some extra pressure on him?  Don't you think that he knew that play was an error and that there was still a possibility that the scorer would watch replays and change it to an error instead of a hit?  I know it isn't even close to the same pressure as actually having the no hitter, but I'd bet he was still putting some pressure on himself to not give up a hit after that point.

Zambrano had a no hitter through 7 1/3, gave up a hit, and then gave up 2 more hits.  Maybe if he hadn't given up those 2 hits it'd be a similar situation, but he did, and it's not.  You say the Wood hit COULD have been called an error, but there is only one person in the world who would have called the hit against Sabathia a hit, and that was the scorer.  If you haven't seen the replays, the batter was about 1/3 of the way down the line (definitely not more than 1/2) when CC was about to field that grounder.  That was an error in every sense of the word, and to call it a hit that quickly is ridiculous.

Why does everything have to be based off of the Cubs perspective?  So because Cubs pitchers have been close to no hitters then in other situations there should be no appeal because the Cubs didn't get the calls going there way?  There are different situations, and this was clearly an error without question.  Anybody who argues otherwise is clearly biased or defending themselves (the scorer) for the error in judgement they clearly made.

Not all appeals are dealt with by starting off where the appeal was left off at.  Again, different situations are actually handled in different ways, believe it or not.  The Brewers have appealed a hit earlier in the year and it was overturned to an error without replaying the game where the hit occurred.

You know that if Zambrano or Harden was in this situation 99% of Cubs fans would be SCREAMING for it to get overturned into a no hitter.

Do I think the call will get overturned?  No.  Do I think it SHOULD get overturned?  I don't know, because there have been hits changed to errors through appeals earlier (it's already happened once for the Brewers), but it's never happened for a no hit question.

[RawdogDX]

You know that if Zambrano or Harden was in this situation 99% of Cubs fans would be SCREAMING for it to get overturned into a no hitter.

and when it does you know you will be saying: No way should it be overturned.  Which would be a perfectly reasonable response.  Here's hoping we can have that arguement during late october.

[TallTitan34]

Why does everything have to be based off of the Cubs perspective?  So because Cubs pitchers have been close to no hitters then in other situations there should be no appeal because the Cubs didn't get the calls going there way? 

I am sure similar things have happened to all MLB teams but since I am a Cubs fan and primarily watch Cubs games the only examples I can give are Cubs examples.

The Kerry Wood example is no different than CC.  Kerry gave up one hit that could have been called an error.  I believe the scorer was right in giving the Astros the hit, however, many feel it easily could have been an error.  The Cubs did not protest the call.

My mistake on the Zambrano example.  I was off by one out.

[Hards Alumni]

As a Brewer's fan, it was an error... plain and simple.

BUT, you can't go back and just give him the no no.  I love CC and the brewers, but it would just feel cheap.

I think CC probably sees it the same way.  Suck it up, its just a stat, and the important thing is that he got the W.

[robmufan]

As a Brewer's fan, it was an error... plain and simple.

BUT, you can't go back and just give him the no no.  I love CC and the brewers, but it would just feel cheap.

I think CC probably sees it the same way.  Suck it up, its just a stat, and the important thing is that he got the W.

Well said!  What is more important the W or a single man on the team?

[ecompt]

I don't think the Brewers are helping things by continually whining about it. Why are they fighting to hard for a guy who already has his bags packed? The Yankees are going to give Sabathia $22 million. See ya.

[wadesworld]

I don't think the Brewers are helping things by continually whining about it. Why are they fighting to hard for a guy who already has his bags packed? The Yankees are going to give Sabathia $22 million. See ya.

I'm pretty sure nobody in Milwaukee is realistically expecting CC to resign with the Brewers, so I'm not sure the point of this post.  Does it really matter whether or not he'll be playing with the Brewers next year?  He currently plays for the Brewers and had a 1 hitter that was clearly an error, so they want him to have the no-hitter.  If he wins a World Series MVP (don't freak out, I'm just making an example...I realize it's not likely, but also not impossible) does that make it for the Yankees because he will probably be a Yankee next year, or does it make it for the Brewers, since that's the team he plays for?

Why not appeal it?  What is there to lose?  Best case scenario, they overturn the call and rule it an error, resulting in a no-hitter for CC, the first for the MILWAUKEE BREWERS (NOT the New York Yankees) since 1987.  Worst case scenario, the ruling stands as a hit and it is still a 1 hitter and outstanding performance.

Yes, the most important thing was getting the win, and we got that whether or not the call is overturned, so why not go for the no-hitter as well?  It would be cool to have it as a no hitter with the win.

[🏀]

Why not appeal it?  What is there to lose?  Best case scenario, they overturn the call and rule it an error, resulting in a no-hitter for CC, the first for the MILWAUKEE BREWERS (NOT the New York Yankees) since 1987.  Worst case scenario, the ruling stands as a hit and it is still a 1 hitter and outstanding performance.

If it's appealed the game needs to be replayed from the inning in question.

[jmayer1]

If it's appealed the game needs to be replayed from the inning in question.

A ruling change from a hit to an error does not require the game to be replayed from that point.  In fact, it happens every once in awhile in the majors (prolly 3 - 5 times a year) you just generally don't hear about them because they are very minute.  The only time a game needs to be replayed when an appeal is successful is if the change affected the outcome of the game (ie-one team got 4 outs in an inning, a team batted out of order, the george brett situation..etc).  As this appeal would have no change in the outcome of the game, no replay is necessary.

[🏀]

A ruling change from a hit to an error does not require the game to be replayed from that point.  In fact, it happens every once in awhile in the majors (prolly 3 - 5 times a year) you just generally don't hear about them because they are very minute.  The only time a game needs to be replayed when an appeal is successful is if the change affected the outcome of the game (ie-one team got 4 outs in an inning, a team batted out of order, the george brett situation..etc).  As this appeal would have no change in the outcome of the game, no replay is necessary.

Thank you for the clarification. TT34 steered me in the wrong direction. Typical Dumb Cubs Fan.

[muwarrior87]

if CC's happy, why not? he can have his contract plus gagne's and cameron's. Throw in a chunk of Sheeter's as well and that's enough money to make him think about staying at least. Personally I'd rather see him stay than sheets, he's a lefty, can hit, and is less injury prone.

[wadesworld]

if CC's happy, why not? he can have his contract plus gagne's and cameron's. Throw in a chunk of Sheeter's as well and that's enough money to make him think about staying at least. Personally I'd rather see him stay than sheets, he's a lefty, can hit, and is less injury prone.

I see what you're saying and I hear he does love Milwaukee, but it is well known that his first choice would be to go out to the west coast, especially for an NL team.  Then no matter how much we can throw at him, the Yankees and others will be able to offer him far and away more.  I would definitely love to have him over Sheets as well, he's also younger.  I used to think that we had a slim chance at resigning him, but the more I hear the less likely I think it is.  I think it's still more likely that we resign him than Sheets (although with how he's pitched in the 2nd half the competition to get him has gone down, but I still think he wants out of Milwaukee), but I highly doubt we get him.  I don't think we can offer him over $100 million like the Yankees will.  Unless his money is used to resign CC, I hope we pick up Cameron's club option.  He strikes out a lot but he is SO good defensively and has 24 home runs after missing 25 games to start the year.

[wadesworld]

There is no no-no for CC.  I am fine with that decision, because the remainder of the game could've played out differently had the hit been called an error, so I understand how they can pretty much not change that scoring at this point.  The one thing that is sort of upsetting is that the official scorer for the Pirates continues to say things that are CLEARLY untrue about the play.  This quote is just outrageous:

"The way the ball came off the bat, it was spinning, and it went to the left of the mound with a left-handed pitcher going to get it. It's a difficult play," Webb said at the time. "The definition requires standard effort, and that would have taken more than an ordinary effort. The runner was well down the line."

Here's a video of the play.  The ball is not "spinning," it is rolling STRAIGHT FORWARD in the same direction it began rolling off the bat.  There is a BIG difference between spinning and rolling and that ball is clearly just rolling straight.  A left handed pitcher falls to the left of the mound, so he was already naturally going towards the ball off the bat.  All he has to do is pick it up, take one open-up step and open up his chest to make that throw to first, not "spin all the way around" like he originally said (that would mean he makes a 360 degree turn, throwing the ball into the 3rd base dugout).  That was not a difficult play, and any player makes that play, meaning it would take an ordinary effort, not more than an ordinary runner.  And the part that gets me MOST is that he says "The runner was well down the line."  Really?!  Honestly?!  Define well down the line, please.  When CC began to stand up the runner was LESS than half way down the line, and it was NOT a fast runner on the base-path.  Had CC fielded the ball in his glove he would have made the play by at least two steps.  The video that shows the play and stops it when he touches the ball shows it CLEARLY that he is not even where the 2nd line on the baseline begins.  Here is a look at the play:
http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?categoryId=2521705

Again, I'm not upset about not changing the call because I understand it really wouldn't be right to change it since it involved a no-hitter, but the fact that this guy is blatantly lying to cover up for his clear mistake is pretty lame.

[spartan3186]

Despite the Brewers' protests, the play in question is routinely called a hit and fielders often get angry when they are called for errors on easier plays. The Associated Press polled eight writers who have reported on the majors for 10 years or more, and six would have called it a hit.

It obviously wasnt that bad of a call. Heres the link

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=280831123

[Wareagle]

Unless his money is used to resign CC, I hope we pick up Cameron's club option.  He strikes out a lot but he is SO good defensively and has 24 home runs after missing 25 games to start the year.

Cameron's currently 6th in the NL in AB per Home Run (15 AB/HR) although he doesn't have the plate appearances to qualify for batting awards.  His slugging percentage and OPS are also higher than Prince's.  He's been pretty good this year for us.

[TallTitan34]

Thank you for the clarification. TT34 steered me in the wrong direction. Typical Dumb Cubs Fan.

I got it from Len Kasper.

[wadesworld]

It obviously wasnt that bad of a call. Heres the link

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=280831123

Just out of curiosity, did you watch the replays that were in that clip?  And did you see the one they showed on Sportscenter that night where they paused it when Sabathia starts to stand up?  It wouldn't have even been close.  Steve Phillips makes it pretty clear that it was a clear error.

And yeah, I love Cameron.  Prince has been really frustrating this year.  It seems like he's pressing as a result of Braun signing his long-term contract.  Every time Braun does something big he follows it up with a strike out.  He also has been terrible in clutch situations this year.

[spartan3186]

I did see the play and I think in retrospect it was an errorr. Im just saying that the official scorer is NOT the only person on the planet who would have ruled it a hit. If it wasnt for the no-hitter no one would have thought anything of it being ruled a hit.

[wadesworld]

I did see the play and I think in retrospect it was an errorr. Im just saying that the official scorer is NOT the only person on the planet who would have ruled it a hit. If it wasnt for the no-hitter no one would have thought anything of it being ruled a hit.

I think the scorer IS the only person on the planet who would rule it a hit without any hesitation whatsoever, especially when a no-hitter is going on, when scorers tend to call a play an error initially and then change it to a hit after watching replays if it deserved to be a hit.  I also think he is the only person on the planet that would try to argue that the ball was spinning when Sabathia made the play, argue that by being lefty and the ball being to the left it makes it harder for him to make the play, that it would have been an extraordinary play if he had made the play, and MOST RIDICULOUSLY that the baserunner was "well down the line," because if you just watch the replay, EVEN IN REAL-TIME MOTION, it is CLEAR that the baserunner is NOWHERE NEAR "well down the line" when Sabathia would have been making the throw had he fielded the ball correctly.

[drewm88]

A lefty generally falls a little toward 3rd on a pitch while a righty falls to 1st. Other than that, it is a harder play for a lefty IMO. A lefty's body would most likely be pointed between the dugout and 3rd. They have to turn about 180 degrees or possibly more to make the throw. A righty would be pointed between the dugout and home. They'd have to turn half as much.

I'm not saying it's a hit or an error, but the dude's not entirely wrong.

[wadesworld]

A lefty generally falls a little toward 3rd on a pitch while a righty falls to 1st. Other than that, it is a harder play for a lefty IMO. A lefty's body would most likely be pointed between the dugout and 3rd. They have to turn about 180 degrees or possibly more to make the throw. A righty would be pointed between the dugout and home. They'd have to turn half as much.

I'm not saying it's a hit or an error, but the dude's not entirely wrong.

I would argue the other way.  I think that makes him have to turn even less, because he can just open with the right foot and turn his chest.  A righty has to plant on his right and turn all the way around to the left.

[jmayer1]

I would argue the other way.  I think that makes him have to turn even less, because he can just open with the right foot and turn his chest.  A righty has to plant on his right and turn all the way around to the left.

It is definitely a tougher play for a lefty than a righty.  A right-hander is set to make the throw when he gets the ball in that position.  All he has to do is plant his right foot and throw.  A left-hander has to spin 180 degrees, plant, and then throw.

I think it was the right thing for the Brewers to appeal it to try and get CC the no-hitter, but its not a big deal that they didn't get it. 

[ecompt]

right, it shouldn't have been a big deal that they didn't get the call. But Yost whined about it afterwards, which is OK (heat of the moment). The problem I have with the whining came Monday, when then the Brewers GM says the whole scoring system has to be overturned. What??? Let it go. It makes the organization sound like a bunch of George Steinbrenners.

[🏀]

The problem I have with the whining came Monday, when then the Brewers GM says the whole scoring system has to be overturned. What??? Let it go. It makes the organization sound like a bunch of George Steinbrenners.

They are looking for a reason to have another reason to have a patch on their jerseys.