Baseball Pissing Match

[jmayer1]

Well, you and I will have to disagree.

Starting first baseman = Angels system
Starting second baseman = Angels system
Starting Shortstop = Angels system
Starting third baseman = Angels system
Starting catchers (both, split time) = Angels system
Starting pitcher 1 = Angels system
Starting pitcher 2 = Angels system
Starting pitcher 3 = Angels system
Starting pitcher 4 = Angels system
Starting pitcher 5 = Would have been Nick Adenhardt who was killed this year...Angels system

So the entire starting infield and the pitchers 1 through 4 starters this year are all Angels system guys.  Plus a good chunk of the bullpen is also Angels guys (Shields, Mosely, Jepsen, etc)

The only guys that aren't are the three outfielders and Maicer Izturis (who the Angels got after his rookie year when he played a whopping 32 games for the Expos).

I'd call that mostly Angels system guys.  Where the difference is with the Yankees, in my opinion, is that they do go after quantity...Sabathia, Burnett, Damon, Mitre, Molina, A-Rod, Teixiera, Hinske, Swisher, and Matsui.   They're loaded with free agents all over the place on ANY given night.  The Angels are LOADED with system players on their team on any given night.

I'm sorry, but we will have to agree to disagree.  I don't see the similarities between the Angels and Yankees at all in team make up.


PS  When I say system guys, that doesn't always mean the club drafted them, but they obtained them while they were still in the minors and then developed them in their own minor league system.

Disagree if you want but the facts are this:

Of the 10 angels with the most ab this year, 4 were free agent pickups (this is excluding Izturis) and this does not include vlad since he's been hurt and only has 185 abs.

Of the 10 yankees with the most ab this year, 5 were free agent pickups.  This does not include Nady who has been hurt most of this year as well.

Of the 5 angels starters, one was a free agent (the guy with the 3rd best era and the 4th most innings pitched, so I really doubt he wouldn't be in there if Adenhaart was still around, more likely Santana would be out).  In addition, your closer was a free agent pickup.  Not to mention, you have another free agent starter the angels are shelling out $10 million to this year, even though he's hurt

Of the 5 yankees starters (doesn't matter who you pencil in as 5th-Hughes or Wang), two are free agent pickups (Pettite was a fa as well but he was brought up by the Yankees so that's a little murky there).  Their close is homegrown.

Both teams have some other guys (Molina, Hinske, Oliver, Speier) on the bench/in the pen who were fa pickups but they are mostly bit players so I am not including them in the comparison.

So let's tally them up (top 5 starting pitchers, closer, and pos players including 1 sub)

Angels - 6/16 were fa pickups, this does not include Vlad or Escobar
Yankees - 7/16 were fa pickups, this does not include Nady

I don't see that as a big difference there.  If you don't agree then we'll definitely have to agree to disagree.  As I said, the biggest difference between the teams is that the Yankees will more often go for guys in the middle of the season and that the Yankees will shell out bigger (not more) free agent contracts.  As you like to say so often, I'm not defending the Yankees (TC), I'm just trying to straighten out the facts.  However, it is good to have a relevant baseball (or any topical) discussion w/o the childish/irrational jabs, insults..etc. that people seem to throw out so often.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Nothing I stated was incorrect....who is this 3rd best ERA starter you speak of?  Our starters this year are Lackey (Angels system), Saunders (Angels), Santana (Angels), and Weaver (Angels).  The 5th starter is actually O'Sullivan (also Angels).  Are you referencing Palmer?  Yeah, he started a few games this year but is relegated to the bullpen.  Escobar?  He pitched in one game all season.


Izturis is a utility player that also plays DH (like he did again last night).  He has not started the most games at any position and therefore cannot be called the starter at any position.

[jmayer1]

Nothing I stated was incorrect....who is this 3rd best ERA starter you speak of?  Our starters this year are Lackey (Angels system), Saunders (Angels), Santana (Angels), and Weaver (Angels).  The 5th starter is actually O'Sullivan (also Angels).  Are you referencing Palmer?  Yeah, he started a few games this year but is relegated to the bullpen.  Escobar?  He pitched in one game all season.


Izturis is a utility player that also plays DH (like he did again last night).  He has not started the most games at any position and therefore cannot be called the starter at any position.

I didn't say anything you said was incorrect, but you also didn't make a clear comparison between the two teams like I did. 

I was talking about Palmer, the guy who has made the 4th most starts on your team.  I don't know the current alignment of your starting pitching, but just looking at the stats I can see he has the 4th most starts on your team and the 4th most innings pitched so I assumed he was in your starting rotation.  Drilling down I can see he hasn't been starting lately. 

I clearly stated I was excluding Escobar, rather I was just pointing out that he was a free agent pickup that the halos are shelling out $10 mil to this year, even though he hasn't been able to pitch.

I also clearly stated I was excluding Izturis as a free agent pickup.

The facts are the facts.

[jmayer1]

100% agree. When you make a move you should ask does this bring us closer to a championship?  That's why I like what the White Sox are doing. They realize that even though they are a game out, selling may actually be the way to bring a championship sooner.  Especially with their very difficult second half schedule which could very likely cause them to miss the playoffs. 

By trading for Halladay, the Brewers ate settling for just making the playoffs and not winning a championship.

So, do you think the Cubs should be sellers as well? 

[MU B2002]

So, do you think the Cubs should be sellers as well? 

I do, but I am not on either side in this pissing match so my opinion may not matter.  They can't add any one piece to move past the Dodgers or Phillies, so why blow up the future.

[TallTitan34]

So, do you think the Cubs should be sellers as well?  

If the Cubs were able to get quality prospects that could help us in the future more than right now, yes they should sell.  But no one out there is going to take the contracts we have.  Plus with the change in ownership the team can't eat any money either.  Therefore selling isnt really an option for the Cubs.

The thing that can bring them closer to a championship at this time is to try to pick up a second baseman.  I'd like Freddie Sanchez but I don't know if the Cubs could take on his $7 million salary next year.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The facts are the facts.

Correct, and the facts are that all five Angels starting pitchers are Angels system players and the entire infield is, including both catchers.

The exceptions are the outfield and Izturis.   The Yankees, when you factor in their starting pitching, have more free agents as well as more free agent position players.  Those are the facts.   

[jmayer1]

If the Cubs were able to get quality prospects that could help us in the future more than right now, yes they should sell.  But no one out there is going to take the contracts we have.  Plus with the change in ownership the team can't eat any money either.  Therefore selling isnt really an option for the Cubs.

The thing that can bring them closer to a championship at this time is to try to pick up a second baseman.  I'd like Freddie Sanchez but I don't know if the Cubs could take on his $7 million salary next year.

Ok, I'm glad to see you say that because then it just means we have more of a philosophical disagreement.  I'm usually  of the opinion you do what you can to get in the playoffs (obviously within reason) and then you take your chances from there.  The way it looks now, anybody coming out the central is likely to get swept, but you never know when a team gets on a roll and gets hots.  It happens less than the favored team winning it all, but there are far too many examples of teams nobody thought had a shot getting into the WS or even winning it.

[TallTitan34]

No I agree with you too that a team can get hot and anything can happen. But I also believe for the most part the better team wins.

For example the 1998 Wild Card Cubs team didn't stand a chance of winning in the playoffs.

On a unrelated note does anyone remember when the Brewers sent Italian Sausage to stand on Waveland and cheer on the Cubs in 2003?  They did it as a thank you for filling Miller Park that year. He stood right next to the crab shack guy. 

[jmayer1]

For example the 1998 Wild Card Cubs team didn't stand a chance of winning in the playoffs.

I definitely thought that in '06 about the Cards and look what happened.  I'm just saying, you never know.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I definitely thought that in '06 about the Cards and look what happened.  I'm just saying, you never know.

I agree...no one gave the Wild Card Angels a chance in 2002 and that year both World Series contestants were Wild Card winners (Giants and Halos).

You just never know.

[Hards Alumni]

http://failblog.org/2009/07/24/hat-fail/

[ChicosBailBonds]

http://failblog.org/2009/07/24/hat-fail/

That is funny!!!   

[MU B2002]

http://failblog.org/2009/07/24/hat-fail/

Thanks, I just wasted an hour laughing at images on there.

On another note... Cards just picked up Holliday to get Albert some help.

[wadesworld]

Thanks, I just wasted an hour laughing at images on there.

On another note... Cards just picked up Holliday to get Albert some help.

Looks like my prediction of the Cards winning the division at the beginning of the year will come true...

[TallTitan34]

Holliday doesn't make that big of a difference.

[NavinRJohnson]

Holliday doesn't make that big of a difference.

Can't decide what I think about it. I think he very well could make a big difference. In a divivion that is lilley to be decided by a game or two, it certainly improves the look of their lineup. I think it solidifies the Brewers position as the third team in a three team race (pending any possible moves this week of course)...I might be willing to elevate the Cardinals to first though. Not just because of this move, but it sure helps.

[jmayer1]

Holliday doesn't make that big of a difference.

Despite his "down" year, Holliday stil brings with him an .831 ops, much higher than Duncan's .687 (since traded) and Ankiel's .649 (will prolly still see quite a few abs as a ph and to give the other guys a rest which TLR loves to do); the two guys he will primarily be replacing in the lineup.  Add this to the acquistion of DeRosa who's finally looked comfortable over the last 4 games and I don't see how the Cards aren't the division favorites. 

In addition, with the ability to trot out Carp, Wainwrigt, Pineiro (and Lohse if they need a 4th starter) and Franklin to close down games, the Cards are suddenly set up for what could be a deep postseason run.

However, they did give up a lot to get Holliday (top of their top 10 prospects) and it remains to be seen if they can/want to sign him (or DeRosa) to a reasonable contract for the long term.

[Ari Gold]

Why Miller park sucks:

Actually it has nothing to do, the stadium itself, it has more to do with how big of a scumbag turd bud selig is (next to Mark Cuban, he's probably the worst thing for sports) and how fat Wisconsinites are (Milwaukee, where 7s are 10s).

http://deadspin.com/5322107/why-your-stadium-sucks-miller-park

[jmayer1]

Why Miller park sucks:

Actually it has nothing to do, the stadium itself, it has more to do with how big of a scumbag turd bud selig is (next to Mark Cuban, he's probably the worst thing for sports) and how fat Wisconsinites are (Milwaukee, where 7s are 10s).

http://deadspin.com/5322107/why-your-stadium-sucks-miller-park

That was actually pretty funny, I guess they are doing one for every stadium. 

Here is Wrigleys:

http://deadspin.com/5288450/why-your-stadium-sucks-wrigley-field

And a couple more links you might like

See #13
http://www.mensfitness.com/lifestyle/216

See #11
http://www.mensfitness.com/lifestyle/217

[ChicosBailBonds]

Thanks, I just wasted an hour laughing at images on there.

On another note... Cards just picked up Holliday to get Albert some help.

This one is brilliant


http://www.viddler.com/explore/failblog/videos/164/35.176/

[TallTitan34]

Well yeah Holliday helps but I don't think he will make that big of an impact.

[Hards Alumni]

This one is brilliant


http://www.viddler.com/explore/failblog/videos/164/35.176/

haha, awesome, i wasted more than a few people's fridays. :-D

also, find the one with the guy biking over a puddle... think its somewhere in asia... Bike fail or something... great.

[TallTitan34]

Looks like Ted Lilly is going on the DL with shoulder tendenitis. He has he had this in Toronto and only missed a few starts.

It's amazing the Cubs have lost Ramirez, Soto, Lilly, Zambrano, Guzman, Dempster, Miles, Johnson, Bradley, etc all for significant time to the DL and are only 0.5 games out of first. (First place in the loss column.)   

[TallTitan34]

I renamed the thread to simply "Baseball Pissing Match" in order to include all teams in the pissing including Chicos' beloved Angels.

There has to be some Cards, Twins, and Chi Sox fans out there. Please join in!

Welcome all pissers!