157 minutes

[tower912]

We've reached the point where we're rationalizing 24-point losses to unranked opponents.

Exact opposite. I would have expected the same outcome from a team not named Marquette in the same situation. 

[wadesworld]

Ahh here's the weekly semantics schtick from you.
Can't make any on-court arguments this season so into the minutiae you go!

Yes you're right, Zuby played fewer minutes than he does on the season and Marquette lost by 10 points more than the experts and models predicted - pretty pathetic of us!

AKA what I claimed was wrong and now I'll shift the goalposts.  You argued Zuby wasn't on the court for a half (he played 10 minutes in the first and 16 in the second), got called out, and are mad about it (not surprisingly, seems like you're mad a lot).

If you don't want to be called out on making something up, don't make something up.  Kind of funny you're worked up about not having "on-court arguments" when I'm simply responding to your statement (which, ironically, has to do with a player being, well, on the court).

[Scoop Snoop]

AKA what I claimed was wrong and now I'll shift the goalposts.  You argued Zuby wasn't on the court for a half (he played 10 minutes in the first and 16 in the second), got called out, and are mad about it (not surprisingly, seems like you're mad a lot).

If you don't want to be called out on making something up, don't make something up.  Kind of funny you're worked up about not having "on-court arguments" when I'm simply responding to your statement (which, ironically, has to do with a player being, well, on the court).

OUCH! 

[onepost]

AKA what I claimed was wrong and now I'll shift the goalposts.  You argued Zuby wasn't on the court for a half (he played 10 minutes in the first and 16 in the second), got called out, and are mad about it (not surprisingly, seems like you're mad a lot).

If you don't want to be called out on making something up, don't make something up.  Kind of funny you're worked up about not having "on-court arguments" when I'm simply responding to your statement (which, ironically, has to do with a player being, well, on the court).

You're wrong.  Zuby played 7:30 in the first and 18:30 in the second - so me saying he sat the "majority" of the first half is factual.  Bryce Hopkins played 2:15 in the first and 16:45 in the second.  "Their two best players sat the entire first half" because they played 10 out of 40 possible minutes is me exaggerating a point, that we were only in that game for a half because their two best players sat for most of it.  I can't believe I literally have to spell this out for you yet again.

You call that "making something up" when it's really not.  I can call Tre Norman "the worst player I've ever seen" and you'd accuse me of lying, but this is a message board where people exaggerate and embellish and we're not guilty of libel last I checked: unless it's you picking nits to take away from how wrong you've been about our entire season.

[Big Papi]

I would argue that they did in fact quit.  The annoying broadcasters went on and on about how Zuby outhustled our players on that turnover breakaway hoop.   That lack of effort is the definition of quitting. 

This was not going to be a good team this year, and it was very apparent when Shaka didn't go get any experienced players to bridge to the younger talent.  Even Shaka said this team had a lot of growth they needed to do over the summer.  He chose to sink and swim with this group.  It was stubborn on his part. 


That we have gone through significant injuries during his tenure here should have been another nudge to go get an experienced player or two instead of going young again.

Before the season started I would have told you we would lose by double digits at MSG if everything went perfect. 157 minutes of freshmen/soph playing with this roster, yeah that was going to be a bad loss against pretty much anyone on the road. 

It could have been avoided but being stubborn prevailed. 

[wadesworld]

You're wrong.  Zuby played 7:30 in the first and 18:30 in the second - so me saying he sat the "majority" of the first half is factual.  Bryce Hopkins played 2:15 in the first and 16:45 in the second.  "Their two best players sat the entire first half" because they played 10 out of 40 possible minutes is me exaggerating a point, that we were only in that game for a half because their two best players sat for most of it.  I can't believe I literally have to spell this out for you yet again.

You call that "making something up" when it's really not.  I can call Tre Norman "the worst player I've ever seen" and you'd accuse me of lying, but this is a message board where people exaggerate and embellish and we're not guilty of libel last I checked: unless it's you picking nits to take away from how wrong you've been about our entire season.

Thanks for confirming that their two best players were not out for a half.  Lot of words to say "I was wrong."

Also, anybody who thinks Bryce Hopkins is the second best player (or best) on St. John's doesn't know ball.

[#UnleashMalik]

We've reached the point where we're rationalizing 24-point losses to unranked opponents.

Hey now, don't forget the part where Ben gold would have made it a 19 point loss.

[onepost]

Thanks for confirming that their two best players were not out for a half.  Lot of words to say "I was wrong."

Also, anybody who thinks Bryce Hopkins is the second best player (or best) on St. John's doesn't know ball.

Sellers is having a great season but Ejiofor and Hopkins are their best players.

[Pakuni]

Exact opposite. I would have expected the same outcome from a team not named Marquette in the same situation.

Any team down a few bench players and getting minutes from freshmen and sophomores would have lost by 24 last night?
I'm skeptical.

[willie warrior]

We've reached the point where we're rationalizing 24-point losses to unranked opponents.

Seems like 20 plus losses are becoming a thing with this team.

[connie]

Yes. Yes it was.  A microcosm.  A good play, good hustle, everything  the way it was designed.   Doink, doink, doink.

The "Triple Doink" shall live in infamy!

[tower912]

Any team down a few bench players and getting minutes from freshmen and sophomores would have lost by 24 last night?
I'm skeptical.

This amuses me.

A seriousish question for the board. When you watch games, do games fall into patterns to the point that you can almost predict what happens over the next few minutes, as you have seen it with dozens of teams in dozens of games?

Case in point:  The IU game overlapped with the MU game last night.  My wife and I watched our favorite teams separately.  Afterwards, I asked her about the IU-Sparty game.  'Meh.  Tied at 53 IU foul trouble caught up and Sparty upped their intensity'.  That is all I needed to recognize a pattern and know the outcome.

'How about Marquette game'?  "Nine players dressed, 7 freshman and sophomores, at MSG". 
'Ouch.  25-30 points?'

Putting aside the spousal banter shorthand, aren't there certain patterns that you notice when you watch other teams play? 

For me, one is always who stands around on offense first and off ball movement.  Another is defensive rotations.  How quickly teams recognize a zone.  That sometimes bad free throw shooting is like the norovirus.  That Sparty at home almost always finds another gear.

And like last night.  That young, undermanned teams usually lose badly  on the road.  In my mind, it is an expected, a given, a cliche. 


And I always assume that MU is not immune from these patterns.

Does anybody else watch games with this mindset?

[Judge Smails]

I agree with Tower that it's reasonable to expect a bunch of freshmen to get blown out on the road. Where I don't agree with Tower is in the effort - they gave up. A lot of lack of hustle plays from MU. That's the most disturbing thing about this season. Good or bad, MU has always given it a 100% effort - not so much this season.

[Johnny B]

Is there

I agree with Tower that it's reasonable to expect a bunch of freshmen to get blown out on the road. Where I don't agree with Tower is in the effort - they gave up. A lot of lack of hustle plays from MU. That's the most disturbing thing about this season. Good or bad, MU has always given it a 100% effort - not so much this season.

Is there an argument these guys should slightly put their foots off the brakes in a season like this? Don't need guys diving head first into the second row for a ball down 20 in a lost season. maybe

[tower912]

I agree with Tower that it's reasonable to expect a bunch of freshmen to get blown out on the road. Where I don't agree with Tower is in the effort - they gave up. A lot of lack of hustle plays from MU. That's the most disturbing thing about this season. Good or bad, MU has always given it a 100% effort - not so much this season.

I disagree.  Ejiofor and Hopkins sat a bunch in rhe first half, came out and imposed their will.  MU didn't have enough size, strength, bulk to counter.  MU got beat up and worn out.

[Biggie Clausen]

The title of this thread reminds me of that movie "127 Hours" where James Franco's character gets his arm stuck under a boulder and has to amputate it to free himself and stay alive.  *SPOILER ALERT*  At the end of the movie, Shaka offers him a scholarship and then redshirts him.

[Jockey]

Due to a departure and injuries, that is how many minutes were played by freshmen and sophomores last night.  At MSG.  Against the preseason #2 in the country.   They didn't quit.  They got beat up and wore down.   Objectively, it was exactly what one should expect from a team dressing 9 players, on the road, against a good team.  Like Michael Phillips or any 190 lb freshman  should be expected to effectively defend Hopkins or Ejiofor. 

Yup, it sucks.  The remaining 9 are what MU has for now.   Hopefully, this pays off in seasons to come.

You nailed the problem.

When the 5th year of a regime has a junior and senior class of low Division 1 players, the problem is self-evident.