Another Pointless Thread

[Hards Alumni]

I think it's time the bench stop with the "defense clap, clap, clap" gig. They look like a grade school team doing that. It looks ridiculous but even more so when we're losing every game

Maybe you should buy them some sweater vests if you're expecting that.

[rgoode57]

Without one or two rugged front-line players, it is unlikely that next year is going to be very different. And, those rugged frontliners are nowhere in sight.

Shaka has done a good job with the program, but I am starting to wonder. Now that all the players are his recruits and it is truly Shaka's team, things are going sideways fast. I can't help but wonder what MU basketball will look like in three years.

[wadesworld]

It's amazing how in one year all of scoop for the most part can suddenly understand the need for a true bruising powered forward/center or at least someone who is a rim protector and can rebound. There was always so much snark about "air craft carriers".  Well strong, tall players will always have a place in the game if you want to go far in the tournament. 

Do you?  There are a lot of ways to win basketball games nowadays.  Who was Alabama's big, strong, bruising aircraft carrier when they went to the Final Four in 2024?  Grant Nelson was their leading rebounder at 5.9 per game and was 6'10", 215 lbs and played on the perimeter.

Last year's Houston team didn't have a player over 6'7" play over 15 mpg, and didn't have a player over 6'8" on their roster.

Miami's Final Four team in 2023 didn't have a player over 6'7" play over 10 mpg.

Villanova's Final Four team in 2022 didn't have a player over 6'8" play more than 3 mpg, and the one 6'8" guy was Eric Dixon, who played on the wing for a lot of his career.

Baylor's 2021 Final Four team had Matthew Meyer at 6'9" playing on the perimeter and Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua at 6'8".

Houston's 2021 Final Four team had nobody over 6'8" on the roster.

And that's as far back as I'm going to look.  While there are the Edeys and Clingans, a lot of "bigs" aren't "aircraft carriers" or guys that play with their back to the basket in the post, either.  Many are like Khaman Maluach at Duke last year, who is big and athletic so he's a pick and roll rim runner.

[Johnny B]

I think it's time the bench stop with the "defense clap, clap, clap" gig. They look like a grade school team doing that. It looks ridiculous but even more so when we're losing every game

What are you saying? The bench is emulating the cheer leaders?

[Zog from Margo]

Do you?  There are a lot of ways to win basketball games nowadays.  Who was Alabama's big, strong, bruising aircraft carrier when they went to the Final Four in 2024?  Grant Nelson was their leading rebounder at 5.9 per game and was 6'10", 215 lbs and played on the perimeter.

Last year's Houston team didn't have a player over 6'7" play over 15 mpg, and didn't have a player over 6'8" on their roster.

Miami's Final Four team in 2023 didn't have a player over 6'7" play over 10 mpg.

Villanova's Final Four team in 2022 didn't have a player over 6'8" play more than 3 mpg, and the one 6'8" guy was Eric Dixon, who played on the wing for a lot of his career.

Baylor's 2021 Final Four team had Matthew Meyer at 6'9" playing on the perimeter and Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua at 6'8".

Houston's 2021 Final Four team had nobody over 6'8" on the roster.

And that's as far back as I'm going to look.  While there are the Edeys and Clingans, a lot of "bigs" aren't "aircraft carriers" or guys that play with their back to the basket in the post, either.  Many are like Khaman Maluach at Duke last year, who is big and athletic so he's a pick and roll rim runner.

Are you saying MU's frontline players are as "rugged" as Houston's frontline in 2021? If so, I'd beg to differ.

[The_Blaze]

Do you?  There are a lot of ways to win basketball games nowadays.  Who was Alabama's big, strong, bruising aircraft carrier when they went to the Final Four in 2024?  Grant Nelson was their leading rebounder at 5.9 per game and was 6'10", 215 lbs and played on the perimeter.

Last year's Houston team didn't have a player over 6'7" play over 15 mpg, and didn't have a player over 6'8" on their roster.

Miami's Final Four team in 2023 didn't have a player over 6'7" play over 10 mpg.

Villanova's Final Four team in 2022 didn't have a player over 6'8" play more than 3 mpg, and the one 6'8" guy was Eric Dixon, who played on the wing for a lot of his career.

Baylor's 2021 Final Four team had Matthew Meyer at 6'9" playing on the perimeter and Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua at 6'8".

Houston's 2021 Final Four team had nobody over 6'8" on the roster.

And that's as far back as I'm going to look.  While there are the Edeys and Clingans, a lot of "bigs" aren't "aircraft carriers" or guys that play with their back to the basket in the post, either.  Many are like Khaman Maluach at Duke last year, who is big and athletic so he's a pick and roll rim runner.

-----------------------------------

All valid points.  Parham can play down low, if Owens bulks up he could be an inside-out player (and he can jump over people) and Alex coming in next year has good size.

MU's 2013 elite-8 team did not have a starter over 6'8" although Davente was big/huge.  Big does not just mean tall but the size, strength and skill to create space. Also having OTule available to play ~15 minutes that season gave Buzz more match-up options. Buzz likes / prefers fast 'switchables' but Davente and OTule were a big part of that teams success.

Clark clearly has the size (height & building bulk) so let's hope he progresses into someone who can contribute as that size is a benefit on the court and we will have plenty of people who can score so points from him is not the priority.  Will Clark progress like Zach Edey - unrealistic as few have.   

We don't have a big recruit coming in next season and the biggest 2027 recruit we have an offer to is currently 6'7" 200lbs.

So, I still think our outlook would look better with a quality Big East Big Man from the portal this off-season even if it is primarily an enforcer like Theo John.  Need the size inside for quality minutes against certain teams/match-ups.

[dgies9156]

One of the ways I prefer to look at this year's roster is, given the train wreck we have, who do you build around for the future? The expectation is, who should be keepers, jury is still out and "thanks but no thanks..."

Excluding the seniors, red shirts and incoming freshmen, here is how I see things:

Build Around:
Nigel James
Adrien Stevens

Jury is Still Out:
Royce Parham
Damarius Owens
Michael Phillips
Josh Clark

Thanks but No Thanks:
Caedin Hamilton
Zaide Lowrey
Tre Norman
Sean Jones

The "Thanks but No Thanks" group is where the Portal will come from. This will take the same effort Coach Shaka showed his first year. I'm probably too harsh on maybe Zaide and Sean and God knows, maybe they'll come around. I'm not hopeful and Coach needs to be VERY up-front with each of these guys and find them landing spots.

The reality is that accountability sometimes can be a vicious, ugly mistress but it's necessary. Shaka's accountability is to the 16,000 people who show up for the games and the thousands of alumni and fans following the team. If he doesn't act, they will!

So does everyone agree with this assessment? How would you change it?

[wadesworld]

Are you saying MU's frontline players are as "rugged" as Houston's frontline in 2021? If so, I'd beg to differ.

No, but I think they're as rugged as Nova's Final Four team or Alabama's Final Four team.  You don't need to be the most physically imposing team to make deep runs in the Tournament.  Marquette could've easily made a Final Four run in 2023 or 2024 even though Oso wasn't a physical big.  I'm saying you can win a lot of different ways in basketball these days.

[Zog from Margo]

No, but I think they're as rugged as Nova's Final Four team or Alabama's Final Four team.  You don't need to be the most physically imposing team to make deep runs in the Tournament.  Marquette could've easily made a Final Four run in 2023 or 2024 even though Oso wasn't a physical big.  I'm saying you can win a lot of different ways in basketball these days.

Nova's front line was more physical than MU. Dixon shot 3s, but also was physical in the paint and 255 lbs. Samuels was 6'7" and 230 lbs. Roundtree was 6'9" and 250 lbs. Slater was 220. These guys had way bigger frames than Gold, Parham, or Lowery and were stronger players. Hamilton has a BE build but he doesn't have BE talent. I agree that you don't need 7' players but you need physical inside players who won't get pushed around like rag dolls as happened to MU's inside players on Wednesday and against Purdue.

[79Warrior]

Thanks but no thanks for Hamilton and SJ? Absolutely no chance Shaka goes there.

[Shooter McGavin]

Do you?  There are a lot of ways to win basketball games nowadays.  Who was Alabama's big, strong, bruising aircraft carrier when they went to the Final Four in 2024?  Grant Nelson was their leading rebounder at 5.9 per game and was 6'10", 215 lbs and played on the perimeter.

Last year's Houston team didn't have a player over 6'7" play over 15 mpg, and didn't have a player over 6'8" on their roster.

Miami's Final Four team in 2023 didn't have a player over 6'7" play over 10 mpg.

Villanova's Final Four team in 2022 didn't have a player over 6'8" play more than 3 mpg, and the one 6'8" guy was Eric Dixon, who played on the wing for a lot of his career.

Baylor's 2021 Final Four team had Matthew Meyer at 6'9" playing on the perimeter and Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua at 6'8".

Houston's 2021 Final Four team had nobody over 6'8" on the roster.

And that's as far back as I'm going to look.  While there are the Edeys and Clingans, a lot of "bigs" aren't "aircraft carriers" or guys that play with their back to the basket in the post, either.  Many are like Khaman Maluach at Duke last year, who is big and athletic so he's a pick and roll rim runner.

Big and strong.  Can rebound and defend other big strong players.  Don't care if they are 6'8.  As long as they can do it.  Whether they are three point shooters or have some post moves as well it doesn't matter.  Needs to big boys to win. 

[BM1090]

I LOVE DO. I don't think it's about his intelligence, I think it's not wanting to make a mistake. On defense he doesn't help or get a foot in the middle of the court on weak side defense because he doesn't want to lose his man. In the game I could see two things. As the confidence rose, he took more chances on both ends of the court. He was aggressive on offense and even when he lost the ball he was fouled. On defense, he attacked the glass and was clearly the most athletic player on the floor. He is going to falter and struggle, but I think he's tipped into the next level of development.

That could definitely be, he's got a ton of promise.

[BCHoopster]

If Clark is not better then Hamilton, he must be really bad, maybe in 3 years he can help, next year I doubt it.