What would make you show Shaka the door in March?

[WhiteTrash]

I've been critical this year for many reasons. The lack of growth, the inability to manage lineups, the misevaluation of talent, and so many poor in game coaching decisions, but I truly empathize with Shaka here. His entire theory of the case, the worldview he built his program around, has been completely shattered in two months time. That can't be easy to deal with or come to grips with.

I find it hard to believe that a coach with Shaka's intelligence and resume is surprised by the performance. That take is a serious criticism of Shaka.

[GoFastAndWin]

That is probably why he said he wishes his players would all throw their phones in the lake.

Yeah, but the way things are going, wrong lake...

The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down, of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee.

[GoFastAndWin]

I think "betraying trust" is an overstatement. Ben Steele said in his article that he expects a couple of players to transfer after the season and Shaka has not said he would never use the portal. Shaka has given the guys he recruited every chance in the world to succeed. He's already favored them over players in the portal. So giving them years to show what they have before telling them they won't be playing in the future at MU is not betraying any trust IMO.

Concluding some terms with a couple of Steele firms...

[Zog from Margo]

I've been critical this year for many reasons. The lack of growth, the inability to manage lineups, the misevaluation of talent, and so many poor in game coaching decisions, but I truly empathize with Shaka here. His entire theory of the case, the worldview he built his program around, has been completely shattered in two months time. That can't be easy to deal with or come to grips with.

His theory of the case wasn't the problem. He didn't recruit well enough to prove the theory. His failure to recognize his recruiting mistakes until now exacerbated that problem. In any event, this season is an epic failure and that can't be easy for any coach.

[Mu8891]

Ether view is an embarrassment for Shaka

Either he did not realize how uncompetitive and terrible his roster is ..  OR ... he DID recognize it, and decided to double or triple down on RGV and just ride into the season anyway.

Which one is it ?

[Billy Hoyle]

Just going to split hairs here, but Shaka may need to engage some players before March if they are thinking of leaving.

Why? The first day the portal is open for MBB is March 23. Our season will have been over for two weeks by that point. That's plenty of time for end-of-the-year meetings and escorting guys to the compliance office to fill out the portal docs.

[WhiteTrash]

Why? The first day the portal is open for MBB is March 23. Our season will have been over for two weeks by that point. That's plenty of time for end-of-the-year meetings and escorting guys to the compliance office to fill out the portal docs.

I'm not going to fight this, and I could be wrong, but I was only pointing out that it maybe beneficial to (re)recruit the best players earlier than later.   

[Jay Bee]

Why? The first day the portal is open for MBB is March 23. Our season will have been over for two weeks by that point. That's plenty of time for end-of-the-year meetings and escorting guys to the compliance office to fill out the portal docs.

#FakeNews #Lies

The portal is open now. You're speaking on the notification-of-transfer window; however, there's a proposal likely to be approved in January that will result in the window starting on April 7, NOT in March.

[Billy Hoyle]

I'm not going to fight this, and I could be wrong, but I was only pointing out that it maybe beneficial to (re)recruit the best players earlier than later. 

apologies for misreading your post. I was viewing it as Shaka telling guys who might be thinking about entering to do so now. Unfortunately, coaches have to spend significant time rerecruiting their own players throughout the season.

[Pakuni]

Ether view is an embarrassment for Shaka

Either he did not realize how uncompetitive and terrible his roster is ..  OR ... he DID recognize it, and decided to double or triple down on RGV and just ride into the season anyway.

Which one is it ?

It's a little bit of the first one and bit of something else: hubris.

High off their success developing the previous wave of players, I think Shaka and his staff believed too much that they found some secret sauce. It shows in how they recruited the 2022-2024 classes ... bringing in a bunch of toolsy players high on traits (length, size, athleticism, speed) but low on skill. They convinced themselves they could RGV those tools into high-major basketball players and are finding out the hard way.

[WhiteTrash]

apologies for misreading your post. I was viewing it as Shaka telling guys who might be thinking about entering to do so now. Unfortunately, coaches have to spend significant time rerecruiting their own players throughout the season.

Understood. The dicey part is going to be communicating to the "keepers" that he will be upgrading the roster via transfers without causing rumors to spread within the team. Not easy or enviable, but it is a situation he is responsible for and I really do think he is a good leader that can manage it.

Of course all of this is predicated on the assumption Shaka will come back. I am less certain every day he will. Shaka knew this was going to happen. He's too good of a coach not to have seen what his talent level is.

[WhiteTrash]

It's a little bit of the first one and bit of something else: hubris.

High off their success developing the previous wave of players, I think Shaka and his staff believed too much that they found some secret sauce. It shows in how they recruited the 2022-2024 classes ... bringing in a bunch of toolsy players high on traits (length, size, athleticism, speed) but low on skill. They convinced themselves they could RGV those tools into high-major basketball players and are finding out the hard way.

Do we really think Shaka and his staff saw these players over the past 1-3 years and felt that they were BE quality players? Shaka has coached FF, AP Top 10 teams and NBA talent players for a long time, but we are to believe this is a surprise to him?

Either we have way over rated Shaka as a coach or there is something else at play.

Personally , I can't ignore Shaka's actual resume. IMO he's damn good.

[Pakuni]

Do we really think Shaka and his staff saw these players over the past 1-3 years and felt that they were BE quality players? Shaka has coached FF, AP Top 10 teams and NBA talent players for a long time, but we are to believe this is a surprise to him?

Either we have way over rated Shaka as a coach or there is something else at play.

Personally , I can't ignore Shaka's actual resume. IMO he's damn good.

I think he believed they could turn them into Big East players. I think he saw the previous wave of players (Kam, Oso, Stevie, TK, OMax, etc.) steadily improve over their time at Marquette and thought the next wave would follow suit - as did a whole lot of people around here.

His mistake/miscalculation was in the type of player he had in the first wave and didn't have in the second. With the exception of OMax, that first group all arrived at MU with a set of discernible basketball skills - TK has high-end basketball IQ; Kam is a natural bucket-getter; Oso has great handles and passing for a big man; Stevie has great defensive skills and instincts; and even Jop had offensive skills.

What can/do we say about the next wave? Chase and Zaide can jump. Sean Jones is fast. Caedin is thick. Josh Clark is tall. DO is long and athletic. Tre has size for a guard. Al Amadou is long and springy.
Where are the high-end skills and instincts? They don't exist.
The two guys who supposedly arrived withskill - Ben Gold's shooting and Royce Parnham's scoring - are below average at those skills.

I suspect Shaka believed he and his staff could develop skills in these guys and was terribly mistaken. Is he surprised by the results of this season? I have no idea. But I think he's surprised by the lack of development from these players.

[cheebs09]

I'd show Shaka the door if he lost a fight to Zaide. Like Al with the lobsters, I only want winners.

[GoldenWarrior11]

There are rebuilding seasons (which many would have been fine with) and then there are bottom-falling-out disastrous seasons (which this very much is).  When off-court issues begin to arise in conjunction with the on-court product, it can spell doom for the head coach.

I think the most alarming component of what will become of this season is that Shaka has never had a season like this in his career before (even including his 11-22 year at Texas, where they lost their last eight games).  With how much went so drastically wrong so quickly, how can he and the program move forward without essentially hitting the reset button on a majority of the roster (and why should the individuals that recruited and saw potential talent with the current group - when they are so clearly overmatched and not skilled enough for this level - be entrusted to do the fixing)? 

We have not felt the bottom of the season yet.  The worst is yet to come (and the bad thus far has been really, really bad - both on and off the court). 

[MU82]

I think he believed they could turn them into Big East players. I think he saw the previous wave of players (Kam, Oso, Stevie, TK, OMax, etc.) steadily improve over their time at Marquette and thought the next wave would follow suit - as did a whole lot of people around here.

His mistake/miscalculation was in the type of player he had in the first wave and didn't have in the second. With the exception of OMax, that first group all arrived at MU with a set of discernible basketball skills - TK has high-end basketball IQ; Kam is a natural bucket-getter; Oso has great handles and passing for a big man; Stevie has great defensive skills and instincts; and even Jop had offensive skills.

What can/do we say about the next wave? Chase and Zaide can jump. Sean Jones is fast. Caedin is thick. Josh Clark is tall. DO is long and athletic. Tre has size for a guard. Al Amadou is long and springy.
Where are the high-end skills and instincts? They don't exist.
The two guys who supposedly arrived withskill - Ben Gold's shooting and Royce Parnham's scoring - are below average at those skills.

I suspect Shaka believed he and his staff could develop skills in these guys and was terribly mistaken. Is he surprised by the results of this season? I have no idea. But I think he's surprised by the lack of development from these players.

I agree that Shaka appears surprised by the lack of development of the returning players. And sometimes it seems he is still trying to convince himself (and others) that his charges are better than they really are - a recent comment about how much better players they are in practice than in games was pretty telling IMHO.

As for skills ...

Ross is a very good athlete who as a sophomore and junior was a darn good defensive player and a competent bucket-getter who made some big baskets. For the first month of this season, he was leading the Big East in scoring, mostly by attacking the basket and either making driving shots or getting to the FT line. So I do think that he has skills and that he'd get lots of PT for almost any program out there, but it's difficult to showcase them when the opponent keys on you because the rest of the team is so limited. That was never a problem when he was the third, fourth or fifth option on a good team.

Gold is a streaky shooter. He has had long stretches - month-plus-long stretches - in which he has made more than 40% of his 3s. And also stretches in which he hasn't been able to buy a bucket. So it's maybe not the most reliable skill, but it is a skill that convinced at least one since-departed Scooper that he'd be an NBA player. Gold also has become a good defensive big when he's not told to chase guards 40 feet away from the basket.

I think opposing coaches would look at Parham and believe he'd be worth poaching because they would be confident in their ability to develop him as a scorer. He has shown many flashes during his 1.5 seasons, but he also disappears for long stretches.

And there is some evidence that Owens can be a bucket-getter. He has had a few (too damn few, but a few) stretches in which he has scored in bunches. Shaka probably saw him do that a lot in preseason practices, enough to think Owens would take the next step. I sure was hoping that would be the case, but it hasn't been.

Even if the above have Big East-level skills (and I allow plenty of room for debate on that), your overall point is well taken. The offensive and defensive systems Shaka runs requires skills that too many players he has brought in do not have. As has often been bemoaned on Scoop (for good reason), running a 3-pointer-centric offense without having several pure shooters available to spread the court is simply bad coaching, as much as it pains me to say it.

I like Shaka, and I hope he is willing to make adjustments so that he can turn things around next season. If there is a next season for him.

[Mu8891]

Golden - I agree. The worst is yet to come ... both on and off the court.

I expect more embarrassments. Wish there was a way to throw in the towel and pass on the next two months of this disaster

[tower912]

Like my pappy used to say, builds character.

Like Buzz used to say, reveals character.

It is a bad season.  They happen.  The only interesting are how we react and what happens next.

[GoldenEagles03]

Golden - I agree. The worst is yet to come ... both on and off the court.

I expect more embarrassments. Wish there was a way to throw in the towel and pass on the next two months of this disaster

At least we know it and the process is already underway

[WhiteTrash]

It is a bad season.  They happen.  The only interesting are how we react and what happens next.

I think this sentence defines a core disconnect on Scoop.

IMO, a NET 80 rating is "a bad season". Maybe NET 120 rating due to injuries.

This has gone beyond just "a bad season". There seems to be structural problems with Shaka's program. Kyle Neptune didn't have this level of issues at Villanova. (17-17 was his bottom). Shaka has had time to build his program and this is where we are at?

[WhiteTrash]

I think he believed they could turn them into Big East players. I think he saw the previous wave of players (Kam, Oso, Stevie, TK, OMax, etc.) steadily improve over their time at Marquette and thought the next wave would follow suit - as did a whole lot of people around here.

His mistake/miscalculation was in the type of player he had in the first wave and didn't have in the second. With the exception of OMax, that first group all arrived at MU with a set of discernible basketball skills - TK has high-end basketball IQ; Kam is a natural bucket-getter; Oso has great handles and passing for a big man; Stevie has great defensive skills and instincts; and even Jop had offensive skills.

What can/do we say about the next wave? Chase and Zaide can jump. Sean Jones is fast. Caedin is thick. Josh Clark is tall. DO is long and athletic. Tre has size for a guard. Al Amadou is long and springy.
Where are the high-end skills and instincts? They don't exist.
The two guys who supposedly arrived withskill - Ben Gold's shooting and Royce Parnham's scoring - are below average at those skills.

I suspect Shaka believed he and his staff could develop skills in these guys and was terribly mistaken. Is he surprised by the results of this season? I have no idea. But I think he's surprised by the lack of development from these players.

So the conclusion is, we have way overrated Shaka's coaching ability?

Shaka and his staff could not identify the lake of growth of his own recruits, or willfully disregarded the signs? This would be an issue with a mid-major coach.

[tower912]

And I have other teams and other disaster seasons in other sports in my life that I have experienced.  It is part of the fan experience.  It sucks.  It isn't personal and it isn't fatal.  It isn't any fun, either. 

Looking forward to seeing what comes next.  Amazing learning and growth opportunities abound.  For the players, for the coaches, for the fans.

[Pakuni]

So the conclusion is, we have way overrated Shaka's coaching ability?

Shaka and his staff could not identify the lake of growth of his own recruits, or willfully disregarded the signs? This would be an issue with a mid-major coach.

Who's we?
If you rated Shaka as "guy who never effs it up," then yeah, you overrated him.
But it also means you didn't pay attention to Texas basketball from 2010 to 2016.
There's a reason Texas let him walk out of Austin for free, and it wasn't because he was too good at his job.

[WhiteTrash]

Who's we?
If you rated Shaka as "guy who never effs it up," then yeah, you overrated him.
But it also means you didn't pay attention to Texas basketball from 2010 to 2016.
There's a reason Texas let him walk out of Austin for free, and it wasn't because he was too good at his job.

"We" may have been presumptuous. Based upon fellow Scoopers and some analyst outside the program reaction to MU performance in relation to Shaka's resume, I made the leap to "we".

I guess I need to reevaluate my personal view of Shaka's head coaching ability. If this is the true version of Shaka, then I can say other MU HCs have been fired for better results.

As for Shaka "eff"ing up, I don't think any fan expects perfection. I was early to state that I liked Shaka's 'no transfer' strategy even when it didn't work, but was a sound strategy to make MU unique. But I'll admit I didn't envision MU being this bad.