What does this team do well?

[panda]

As I said, next year may also be a potentially down year.  However, it would not surprise me if we have a transfer out this off season, and Shaka backfills it with a proven player (i.e. a 20-23 talent from the portal), to help bolster things.

Where I get frustrated with the Shaka criticism is it is the first time in his 5 years we are underperforming expectations - and many Scoopers have said they do like the model of getting to know players, see players evolve, and that MU not be a school of 1-year rentals that have zero love for the university.  Progress isn't always linear, and in my view, Shaka has earned some grace for what has been done Years 1-4 coming off of a decade of mediocre (at best) performance.

Last year was bad too

We've beaten one top 30 torvik rated team since last January. Since February last year, we've beaten one top 100 torvik team Gtown.

The signs of a poor roster existed last season. 

[NCMUFan]

I do believe we will have a year of excellent discussions on Scoop.

[The Sultan]

As I said, next year may also be a potentially down year.  However, it would not surprise me if we have a transfer out this off season, and Shaka backfills it with a proven player (i.e. a 20-23 talent from the portal), to help bolster things.

Where I get frustrated with the Shaka criticism is it is the first time in his 5 years we are underperforming expectations - and many Scoopers have said they do like the model of getting to know players, see players evolve, and that MU not be a school of 1-year rentals that have zero love for the university.  Progress isn't always linear, and in my view, Shaka has earned some grace for what has been done Years 1-4 coming off of a decade of mediocre (at best) performance.

I don't necessarily disagree with the second paragraph, but they most certainly underperformed last season considering how it started. And I think what's also concerning is there doesn't seem to be much light at the end of the tunnel.

[willie warrior]

Perfect summation of the reality, Wades.  Shaka has said this year would "stress test," the RGV model. So far it's showing to not be working out too well.  However, it does seem he's landing higher rated recruits, and it is mentioned by all of them how the RGV philosophy is attractive.

I suspect we may need to suck it up for another year to see how things evolve.  Though it wouldn't surprise me to see a transfer out this off season, and I would think Shaka would give serious thought to trying to backfill that opening with a proven D-1 player from the portal.

SAome people are already tired of "sucking it up"

[willie warrior]

Last year was bad too

We've beaten one top 30 torvik rated team since last January. Since February last year, we've beaten one top 100 torvik team Gtown.

The signs of a poor roster existed last season. 

All signs of a low major

[Elonsmusk]

Last year was bad too

We've beaten one top 30 torvik rated team since last January. Since February last year, we've beaten one top 100 torvik team Gtown.

The signs of a poor roster existed last season. 

What would your reaction be if this year's team is the inverse of last seasons?  If we beat some top 100 Torvik teams and a Top 30 team or two from here on out, do signs of a good roster begin to emerge?

I still think this year's team can finish in the Top 4 of the Big East - a down year in the BE, to be fair. 

[The Sultan]

What would your reaction be if this year's team is the inverse of last seasons?  If we beat some top 100 Torvik teams and a Top 30 team or two from here on out, do signs of a good roster begin to emerge? 

Yes. I just doubt it's going to happen.

[panda]

What would your reaction be if this year's team is the inverse of last seasons?  If we beat some top 100 Torvik teams and a Top 30 team or two from here on out, do signs of a good roster begin to emerge?

I still think this year's team can finish in the Top 4 of the Big East - a down year in the BE, to be fair. 

Of course I'd be excited. This team gives me absolutely no reason to believe anything will change which is frustrating.

[Jay Bee]

Glad we don't have Milwaukee on the sked

[KingKolek]

As someone who was skeptical of Shaka's strategy but open-minded to it working, I'm growing increasingly annoyed by two arguments against those of us who are frustrated and calling for a change in approach.

The first is the strawman "well, guess you want them to go out and get a whole roster of new players every year who don't care at all about MU!" No one is asking for this. There is plenty of gray space between the two extremes. What I'm asking for is a coaching staff that can identify clear deficiencies in the roster in the offseason and address them with a couple of additions if necessary. One of the more troubling aspects of this season has been how most fans could have identified they biggest problem areas before they ever took the court.

Look at Kolek as an example. Sure, he was a transfer, but no one would say he was some money-hungry mercenary looking for the highest bidder. Shaka, go find guys looking for a bigger opportunity that align with your culture.

The second point is the idea that this has worked for years, we've gotten spoiled and are now out the second there is trouble. To me, it feels like we are attributing too much of the success to the process and not enough to the players. Retention is great if the players you retain are special. Shaka truly hit with one group (two of which were transfers) with results slowly getting worse as that group has moved on to the next stage of their lives. One does not make a pattern. This year was the proving ground, and it is resulting in perhaps the worst season in 15 years.

[Viper]

Again, quit putting words in my mouth. Where did I say I don't want Ben Gold or Caedin Hamilton playing any minutes at all? I'm saying they are not good basketball players and shouldn't be starting at Marquette. We have no other options, which for the umpteenth time is my entire unnatural carnal knowledgeing point.

Thank you though. While I don't yet have children, having to "But why? But why? But why?" my way through this conversation with you, I feel like I'm prepared for parenthood.

awesome!

[Viper]

What would your reaction be if this year's team is the inverse of last seasons?  If we beat some top 100 Torvik teams and a Top 30 team or two from here on out, do signs of a good roster begin to emerge?

I still think this year's team can finish in the Top 4 of the Big East - a down year in the BE, to be fair. 

talk about all-time silly. WTH man. Wake up to what's in front of your eyes.

[Viper]

I do believe we will have a year of excellent discussions on Scoop.

im pretty sure even all of Scoop will agree, and that ain't easy to accomplish!

[BM1090]

As someone who was skeptical of Shaka's strategy but open-minded to it working, I'm growing increasingly annoyed by two arguments against those of us who are frustrated and calling for a change in approach.

The first is the strawman "well, guess you want them to go out and get a whole roster of new players every year who don't care at all about MU!" No one is asking for this. There is plenty of gray space between the two extremes. What I'm asking for is a coaching staff that can identify clear deficiencies in the roster in the offseason and address them with a couple of additions if necessary. One of the more troubling aspects of this season has been how most fans could have identified they biggest problem areas before they ever took the court.

Look at Kolek as an example. Sure, he was a transfer, but no one would say he was some money-hungry mercenary looking for the highest bidder. Shaka, go find guys looking for a bigger opportunity that align with your culture.

The second point is the idea that this has worked for years, we've gotten spoiled and are now out the second there is trouble. To me, it feels like we are attributing too much of the success to the process and not enough to the players. Retention is great if the players you retain are special. Shaka truly hit with one group (two of which were transfers) with results slowly getting worse as that group has moved on to the next stage of their lives. One does not make a pattern. This year was the proving ground, and it is resulting in perhaps the worst season in 15 years.

Your first point is your own strawman, though. None of us would be opposed to that. Most of us would welcome it.

And re: your second point, I think we'd all agree that the recruiting needs to get better.

[wadesworld]

awesome!

When you have viper backing you, you know you lost lol.

[wadesworld]

Why is year 5 the proving ground? Four good to great years (when taking into context the decade prior to it, especially) and year five is bad so it's proof that Shaka ain't it.

Five years to judge is back and as strong as ever. But also, MU is not supposed to have down years and a 7-10 seed should be our low point, despite the history of our program doing nothing to show there's any truth to that whatsoever.

[panda]

Why is year 5 the proving ground? Four good to great years (when taking into context the decade prior to it, especially) and year five is bad so it's proof that Shaka ain't it.

Five years to judge is back and as strong as ever. But also, MU is not supposed to have down years and a 7-10 seed should be our low point, despite the history of our program doing nothing to show there's any truth to that whatsoever.

The fans didn't set the bar - Shaka did

[wadesworld]

The fans didn't set the bar - Shaka did

Right. He's proven to be a very successful coach for a long time. He hasn't put a product on the court that is up to that standard. Maybe he just completely lost it at 48 years old. Or maybe he'll adjust.

Most think he's too stubborn and has too big of an ego for that. I guess we'll find out if they're right.

[panda]

Right. He's proven to be a very successful coach for a long time. He hasn't put a product on the court that is up to that standard. Maybe he just completely lost it at 48 years old. Or maybe he'll adjust.

Most think he's too stubborn and has too big of an ego for that. I guess we'll find out if they're right.

Putting it differently - the fans are frustrated because we're going off the bat Shaka set in the last four season.

We're not going off of what Mike Deane and Kevin O'Neil did 73 years ago.

[Shooter McGavin]

As I said, next year may also be a potentially down year.  However, it would not surprise me if we have a transfer out this off season, and Shaka backfills it with a proven player (i.e. a 20-23 talent from the portal), to help bolster things.

Where I get frustrated with the Shaka criticism is it is the first time in his 5 years we are underperforming expectations - and many Scoopers have said they do like the model of getting to know players, see players evolve, and that MU not be a school of 1-year rentals that have zero love for the university.  Progress isn't always linear, and in my view, Shaka has earned some grace for what has been done Years 1-4 coming off of a decade of mediocre (at best) performance.

100% he deserves a grace period.  I'm not so sure he didn't know this was going to happen. At Big East media day a reporter let him know that he picked MU in the top 25 and to paraphrase Shaka who had a shocked look on his face 'I hope you feel the same way in a few weeks'.  I think he knew that this was going to be tough sledding this year but wasn't willing to throw away his model of RGV for one lean year. 

I agree with him with regard to not throwing away the model but also agree use of the portal will happen naturally especially after a lean year because a couple players will leave on their own. 

I've said it before.  But I've shifted focus on this season to watching the development of our players.  If they develop, and MU is competitive against the upper tier teams in the Big East despite likely losses (and maybe picking off a few wins) I'm ok with it as long as the arrow is pointing upward for next year.

[BM1090]

Putting it differently - the fans are frustrated because we're going off the bat Shaka set in the last four season.

We're not going off of what Mike Deane and Kevin O'Neil did 73 years ago.

I don't disagree. This level, if sustained, is unacceptable. But it's the complete removal from reality surrounding down years that I have an issue with.  There are SEVEN teams in the country that have a longer current NCAA streak than MU.

Michigan State - 27
Gonzaga - 26
Purdue - 10
Houston - 7
Tennessee - 7
Kansas - 6
Baylor - 6

That's the entire list.

This season has sucked. No denying that. If it becomes a trend then yes, we have a problem. But it hasn't been a trend yet. And acting like this is automatically our new reality going forward is just borrowing angst from the future, and it's exhausting to read.

[panda]

I don't disagree. This level, if sustained, is unacceptable. But it's the complete removal from reality surrounding down years that I have an issue with.  There are SEVEN teams in the country that have a longer current NCAA streak than MU.

Michigan State - 27
Gonzaga - 26
Purdue - 10
Houston - 7
Tennessee - 7
Kansas - 6
Baylor - 6

That's the entire list.

This season has sucked. No denying that. If it becomes a trend then yes, we have a problem. But it hasn't been a trend yet. And acting like this is automatically our new reality going forward is just borrowing angst from the future, and it's exhausting to read.

What will change next year? We have more or less the same roster with no spots open?

[BM1090]

What will change next year? We have more or less the same roster with no spots open?

How did we improve from 2021 to 2022? We lost Morsell, Kuath, and Justin Lewis. Tyler Kolek was a barely average sophomore and O Max was infuriating. No way we could have improved in 2022 with only freshman Chase Ross as a new contributor.

It happens all the time. Let it play out.

[panda]

How did we improve from 2021 to 2022? We lost Morsell, Kuath, and Justin Lewis. Tyler Kolek was a barely average sophomore and O Max was infuriating. No way we could have improved in 2022 with only freshman Chase Ross as a new contributor.

It happens all the time. Let it play out.

This team is alarmingly bad. Without Ross, we would have multiple losses to cupcakes. Much different than shaka's first team/second team.

[Small Orange Soda]

Right. He's proven to be a very successful coach for a long time. He hasn't put a product on the court that is up to that standard. Maybe he just completely lost it at 48 years old. Or maybe he'll adjust.

Most think he's too stubborn and has too big of an ego for that. I guess we'll find out if they're right.

The problem is when everyone defending him, like yourself, point out back to back 2 seeds they're talking about a program built differently than the one he's built now.

His first round draft pick was a transfer. His All American PG was a transfer. I'm not someone who thinks he needs to go portaling every year, but you don't get to brag about how he's doing it the right way when this is his first year actually doing that (you can call last year that too, but they fell apart last year). The results are terrible thus far.